Time  Nick       Message
00:01 paramat    i think i will push these new heat, humidity and mgv7 noise params later. feel free to stop me if this will cause conflicts for you
00:06 hmmmm      no go ahead
00:07 hmmmm      you must realize that's only a stopgap measure, you can't possibly expect people to adjust noise each time they add a biome
00:11 paramat    agreed
00:13 paramat    in future perhaps sqrt(number of biomes) will scale spreads as we discussed..
00:29 hmmmm      now, why sqrt() exactly?
00:43 paramat    i assume a terrain area of spread by spread where heat and humidity vary across their ranges along the axes, so all biomes are present. keeping biome size constant, spreads are proportional to sqrt(number of biomes)
00:44 paramat    hard to describe, but intuitively makes sense to me
00:46 paramat    comes from visualizing heat/humidity voronoi diagrams
00:46 hmmmm      yeah
00:47 hmmmm      I'm going to make a command line option to spit out the voronoi diagrams in image format
00:47 hmmmm      given a set of biomes
00:47 paramat    nice
00:47 hmmmm      but this would depend on the client
00:47 hmmmm      because i need irrlicht as a dependency
00:48 paramat    with the sqrt(biomes) thing we will need a settable parameter to scale biome size
00:48 paramat    a rough biome width
00:50 paramat    spread = biomewidth * sqrt(nobiomes)
00:51 paramat    both spreads equal
00:52 paramat    but because noise biome size will turn out smaller, so param is rough 'max biome size'
00:53 hmmmm      this might be easier said than done
00:53 hmmmm      increasing the spread decreases the detail so we also need to increase the number of octaves
00:53 hmmmm      we can't indefinitely increase the number of octaves, in fact that's quite limited
00:54 hmmmm      even 15 octaves would probably exceed the memory limitations on most machines
01:03 paramat    ah octaves, with sqrt() spread will only grow slowly, then octaves coould be increased even slower than that
01:04 paramat    (could)
01:05 paramat    so limited to range 3 to 6 of whatever
01:09 paramat    only need 3 more octaves to keep the same detail when going from 4 to 256 biomes, no problem
01:10 paramat    will test and push this later #2718
01:10 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2718 -- Biome API, mgv7: Increase heat/humidity spreads. Improve mgv7 noise parameters by paramat
03:14 paramat    pushing #2718 very soon
03:14 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2718 -- Biome API, mgv7: Increase heat/humidity spreads. Improve mgv7 noise parameters by paramat
03:31 paramat    now pushing
03:36 paramat    complete
05:02 est31      hey Zeno` !
05:07 Zeno`      hey
05:33 hmmmm      hey zeno`, what's been up lately?
06:34 Zeno`      not much. Had the flu so I've been in bed a lot :/
14:36 est31      pushing in 5 mins https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/6b7fb591cb8d54bc8a43df6adb34a026720b4fe4
14:37 rubenwardy Did you make the ASCII art originally by hand? O_o
14:37 est31      I didnt make it
14:38 est31      only added large parts of it
14:38 est31      but yes I edited them by hand :)
14:38 rubenwardy Ah XD.
14:38 est31      two things are useful though when doing that: 1. kate's block mode, 2. that key over DEL
14:48 Krock      write it on the worldoftext site and then select - copypaste :P
14:49 celeron55  i think there are missing arrow heads in the graph
17:21 est31      celeron55, I haven't added arrowheads to arrows of length 1, because there the arrow would only consists of its head. Except I used ↓ which is unicode
17:21 est31      and unicode in c files...
17:23 est31      (that has been previously there too)
17:34 Calinou    I've used Unicode in Carbone comments :P
17:35 Calinou    why is that a problem? any properly set up editor uses UTF-8
17:36 init       unicode and utf8 are different things
17:36 est31      One of the features java bragged about was unicode support even inside source files
17:36 est31      I havent run into issues with unicode inside c files yet
17:36 est31      but still I'm cautious
17:37 est31      you know in two weeks people are showing up "hey this comment only commit from may 24 broke my compiler on openVMS!"
17:37 est31      build*
17:38 est31      as a fun fact, once I've used umlauts inside a project name in java, because, I've thought, everything will work well
17:38 est31      so what happened
17:38 est31      total chaos
17:38 est31      it worked some times
17:39 est31      but there were various bugs
17:39 est31      so I regretted it not using ae or oe instead of ä and ö
17:39 est31      there you have the unicodeness of java :)
17:40 Calinou    “Now supports äaö!” Minecraft splash :P
20:30 paramat    i will go ahead and make mgv6 snowbiomes default soon
20:31 VanessaE   guess that means snowdrift mod will need some changes? ;)
20:44 paramat    yes it will need an option
20:48 VanessaE   one question though is how do these new snow biomes mesh with SPlizard's snow mod?
20:48 VanessaE   (and plants_lib, which uses the same temperature map)
20:49 paramat    nore sfan5 perhaps sometime you could add comments to game#520
20:49 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/520 -- Default: New sandstone brick texture by paramat
20:50 paramat    they don't match at all, sorry, an option will be needed
20:51 VanessaE   you should match them by default then
20:51 paramat    because the snow mod's locating of snow biomes makes no sense, and mine does =)
20:51 paramat    .. biome noise should be taken as temp
20:51 VanessaE   that's gonna break maps that use either of the above mods
20:52 VanessaE   even if you added a way for a mod to detect if engine-supported snow biomes exist, no mod will ever be able to accurately guess where a snow biome is
20:52 paramat    don't think so because old worlds will not have snowbiomes enabled by flags in map-meta.txt
20:53 VanessaE   because there will be some parts of the map that are using the older method e.g. snow, plants_lib mods, and some parts using the newer method
20:53 VanessaE   that will help
20:54 paramat    so essentially only new worlds will get snowbiomes
20:54 VanessaE   and if a server owner wants to switch to the newer method?
20:55 paramat    they could add the flag into map-meta, and get a few straight-edged biomes between old and new
20:55 VanessaE   right, I'd expect that
20:55 VanessaE   but the point is it conflicts with how the older mods do it
20:55 VanessaE   which means you'll have desert-temperatures in a snow biome
20:55 VanessaE   etc.
20:56 paramat    yeah mods will need an option added for the new biome system
20:56 VanessaE   isn't there some way to identify that a particular mapblock is being generated with the new method?
20:57 paramat    erm flags may be checkable..
20:57 VanessaE   I mean something passed along to on_generated
20:58 paramat    the issue is here, comments welcome game#519
20:58 ShadowBot  https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/519 -- Should mgv6 snowbiomes be enabled by default?
20:58 paramat    erm possibly
20:59 paramat    'get mapgen params' at the start of on-gen?
20:59 paramat    not too sure
21:00 VanessaE   that might work as long as it's painfully obvious :P that a returned flag basically means "new snow biomes in effect here" or so
21:01 VanessaE   and indeed, snowdrift will be a problem
21:01 VanessaE   because it can't just check those flags
21:02 VanessaE   (assuming the user changes the flags to turn the new biomes on)
21:03 paramat    if a server is switched over, all new chunks will have the new biome system, so mods could just be changed to act in the new way from that moment on
21:03 VanessaE   but what about old chunks where there's active stuff going on?
21:04 paramat    aha
21:04 VanessaE   as in snowdrift mod adding snow to existing chunks
21:04 paramat    indeed no solution to that
21:04 VanessaE   yeah.
21:04 VanessaE   the only thing one could do is remove the mod entirely :(
21:05 VanessaE   unless, as I said, you can add a flag to the generated chunks
21:05 paramat    normally i wouldn't expect any server or world to be switched because of the many straight-edged biomes caused
21:05 VanessaE   i.e. something like minetest.get_chunk_flags(mapblock_pos)
21:05 paramat    so any switch would cause a mess anyway..
21:05 VanessaE   hah!  there have already been screwups like that in the past
21:06 sfan5      paramat: added a comment to game 520
21:06 VanessaE   my creative map is the victim of this
21:06 paramat    thanks
21:07 VanessaE   added my comment as well, just for the record.
21:08 VanessaE   paramat: in any case, what I'm really getting at is, adding official snow biomes to the engine like this is a good thing, don't get me wrong
21:08 VanessaE   but you want to provide an upgrade path for users who have been using mods to achieve this effect.
21:08 VanessaE   (since mods == slow)
21:13 paramat    i'll post info in the forum to help modders add an option for the new system
21:14 VanessaE   that isn't an "upgrade path" :)
21:14 paramat    the headache for modders is unavoidable either way though, as most i expect will turn snowbiomes on even if it isn't default
21:14 paramat    hehe
21:14 VanessaE   I don't have anything against turning them on by default
21:14 VanessaE   since that's only for new maps anyway
21:15 VanessaE   nor do I have a problem with adapting e.g. plants_lib to account for it
21:15 VanessaE   it's upgrading an old map that poses the quandry.
21:15 paramat    yes
21:17 paramat    but then it's not advisable to switch an old world over due to the discontinuous biomes, it doesn't justify a complex upgrade path, i wouldn't want to work on that
21:19 paramat    modders will just have to do the work themselves if they are crazy and switch =)
21:21 VanessaE   on a slightly-related note:  there's one thing I've been wanting to do for several months now...  reset the maps on a couple of my servers, but keeping the user-built content i.e. laying it all down onto newly-generated terrain, where the terrain matches the seed that the map was supposed to have, to get rid of discontinuous areas where interpretation of mapgen params has changed or gone awry
21:21 VanessaE   (my creative map has such things)
21:22 paramat    oh man..
21:22 paramat    difficult
21:23 VanessaE   that's a hard subject for sure. :)
21:58 celeron55  hmm i wonder if a screenshot taken from minetest+minetest_game requires the attribution+sharealike stuff to be followed
21:59 celeron55  actually i wonder because someone basically asked about that
21:59 VanessaE   celeron55: it's generally been held that copyright doesn't apply if the screenshot is low-resolution enough
21:59 celeron55  the screenshot is high-resolution
21:59 VanessaE   falls under "fair use" or "fair dealing" or whatever you wanna call it
21:59 celeron55  this same email appears to have been sent to many core developers
22:00 celeron55  they want to use it as a silly background on the cover of a scientific publication
22:01 VanessaE   wat
22:01 celeron55  it's ridiculous in all the right ways
22:02 VanessaE   off the top of my head, I would say that CC-by-SA applies here
22:05 celeron55  i wonder what that means in practice
22:05 VanessaE   an attribute line under the image or in the acknowledgement section maybe
22:05 VanessaE   I don't see any reason to need more than that, anyway
22:05 celeron55  what would the acknowledgement line contain
22:06 celeron55  it's not exactly simple as there are many authors 8)
22:06 VanessaE   "Screenshot of Minetest engine and minetest_game, CC-by-SA, copyright various, see Minetest source code and LICENSE file." maybe?
22:07 celeron55  "Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-SA 3.0) Copyright (C) 2010-2015 Minetest contributors"?
22:07 VanessaE   that would work too
22:07 celeron55  i guess that's kind of the shortest you can go
22:07 VanessaE   but, I'm no lawyer, so...
22:07 * VanessaE hands celeron55 a large grain of salt
22:07 celeron55  well me neither, and i will mention it in my reply
22:08 celeron55  (Do not take this as actual legal advice though; I am not qualified in that and if I was, these few lines would be way more expensive.)
22:08 celeron55  ^ ...in my own style 8)
22:08 VanessaE   I like the way slashdot et al. put it with their polls:  "if you're using these numbers for anything serious, you're insane."
22:08 VanessaE   (or something to that effect)
22:16 celeron55  http://fpaste.org/225186/05773143/
22:16 celeron55  i think i'll reply with this
22:18 VanessaE   "and if I was, these few lines would be way more expensive."  heh
22:18 sfan5      using a minetest screenshot as a cover for a science publication
22:18 sfan5      i don't even
22:18 VanessaE   sfan5: ikr
22:19 VanessaE   celeron55: lgtm
22:20 sfan5      celeron55: s/on the acknowledgement section/in the acknowledgement section/ ?
22:21 celeron55  hmm i wonder if this actually means they'll have to be able to license everything under CC BY-SA that they put over the screenshot including fonts? well i guess or at least hope not, that would be impossible
22:21 sfan5      well
22:21 sfan5      putting text on something is not really a devirative work
22:21 sfan5      you could have the text somewhere without the original work
22:22 VanessaE   right, and besides which, it's not being released as its own file anyway
22:22 sfan5      we might be worrying about this too much :P
22:22 celeron55  whatever i'm not wasting more time on this, it's now sent
22:22 celeron55  it's not like they're running into any actual problems anyway
23:29 VanessaE   YvesLevier reports the following crash: http://paste.ubuntu.com/11337875