Time Nick Message 00:58 hmmmm oh wow 00:59 hmmmm I never saw this until now - mapblock.h has this BlockGenerationStatus enum 00:59 hmmmm this sounds somewhat close to what I was planning 01:52 paramat serialize_schematic is still segfaulting for me, i would like to attempt some serious debugging to get a backtrace, i assume i need the debug build and a debugger program? any recommendations for a linux debugger to use? 01:53 paramat this is driving me nuts 01:54 * paramat drives his nuts around 01:55 paramat essentially how do i get more info on a bug when even verbose debug.txt shows nothing? 01:57 exio4 gdb? 01:57 exio4 + bt full / thread apply all bt full ? 01:59 paramat okay 02:16 hmmmm https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit/46684beec185d13f89c4a91aaa5dd2148ebb0273 02:17 hmmmm paramat, maybe give me the segfaulting schematic 02:18 paramat it segfaults without writing the mts file, same problem as before 02:19 paramat the mod that segfaults is here https://github.com/paramat/saveschems 02:20 paramat trying to serialize lua table to mts using format v4, uses per node force placement 02:20 paramat it's the bug you couldn't reproduce 02:22 hmmmm hmm 02:23 paramat i'll try a debug build next, but gdb reports the segfault is in '0x00000000006100ab in load_schematic_from_def(...)' 02:24 hmmmm ahhh 02:24 hmmmm if you were able to see the name of the crashing function, that means you do have a debug build 02:25 paramat weird, i used a standard build 02:31 hmmmm oops 02:33 hmmmm try now paramat 02:33 hmmmm thanks for the bug report. 02:34 paramat wow will try 02:42 paramat thanks no crash and files appear 02:43 paramat another step closer to mgv5/7 biomes 02:49 paramat per node force place confirmed working, no more tree trunks removed by a nearby tree's leaves 05:37 hmmmm hrmh 05:38 hmmmm the Player/PlayerSAO interaction seems kind of wonky to me. I don't understand the reason why PlayerSAO is the one to assign a peer_id to a player 05:44 hmmmm celeron55: explain to me why peer_id isn't set before adding the player to the environment 05:44 hmmmm there must be some kind of reason for this. 12:33 RealBadAngel kahrl, here? 13:12 est31 ~tell hmmm btw the memory layout of integers isn't set by the standard either. So its equally "wrong" to specify std::string and u32 inside the protocol. 13:12 ShadowBot est31: O.K. 13:17 kilbith :/ he missed one 'm' 13:23 est31 ~tell hmmmm btw the memory layout of integers isn't set by the standard either. So its equally "wrong" to specify std::string and u32 inside the protocol. 13:23 ShadowBot est31: O.K. 13:23 est31 kilbith, better? 13:34 kilbith yes 17:10 RealBadAngel hi, whats up guys? 17:14 rubenwardy nm 17:23 VanessaE hi 17:26 rubenwardy Reworking / replacing hud should be a top priority, IMO. 17:27 rubenwardy Is there any work / designs on this? 17:30 RealBadAngel well, minimap is a part of hud :) 17:30 VanessaE nice 17:30 RealBadAngel im done with threading the minimap 17:31 RealBadAngel meanwhile i got rid of licensing problems (got no response from gsmanners, so i just opened new file and wrote it from scratch) 17:31 rubenwardy Is minimap entirely client side? 17:32 RealBadAngel yes 17:32 rubenwardy Awesome 17:32 VanessaE merge that sucker 17:32 * sofar wants to pull it so bad 17:32 RealBadAngel need a few days more 17:32 rubenwardy With proper testing, ofc 17:32 RealBadAngel have some problems with voxel area 17:33 RealBadAngel btw, reading the map from another thread without voxel area is not a problem 17:33 RealBadAngel but having large part of the map copied to it seems to be a problem 17:34 rubenwardy Branch "minimap"? 17:34 RealBadAngel not in the repo yet, its too fresh n unstable 17:34 rubenwardy :( 17:34 rubenwardy I wanna test 17:34 rubenwardy oh well 17:34 rubenwardy :P 18:25 VanessaE um... why are player names black now? 18:25 VanessaE (server's at git HEAD as of now, client is at 4c9a8a91c ) 18:27 VanessaE http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/random/Screenshot%20-%2005182015%20-%2002%3a32%3a45%20PM.png 18:27 VanessaE i.e. that. 18:27 rubenwardy probably the set color tag patch 18:27 est31 yea 18:27 est31 there have been multiple changes though 18:27 est31 lemme check 18:28 est31 255 255 255 is that black or white? 18:28 VanessaE that *should* be white 18:28 Krock white 18:28 est31 ok then it probably has been one of hmmmm's commits 18:29 est31 but checking 18:29 hmmmm hrmm 18:30 hmmmm well, does your mod use set_nametag_attributes()? 18:30 hmmmm any of your mods 18:35 est31 hrmm 18:35 est31 cant reproduce at fb36c471d7c35 18:35 VanessaE hmmmm: I doubt it. 18:36 kilbith i confirm : https://lut.im/GjebQYuI/Hsf3m8OA 18:36 VanessaE the only update I put through today was just homedecor, datastorage, and worldedit 18:36 * est31 checks dreambuilder to be sure its not because of the game 18:37 est31 nope 18:37 rubenwardy Krock? Is there a reason why carts has physical = false ? 18:38 est31 kilbith, can you confirm at singleplayer too? 18:38 VanessaE [05-18 14:42] VanessaE: player names are dark now 18:38 VanessaE [05-18 14:45] commit 20aa78cffb6594ff8fdea4291f18d1a8bd252529 Author: kwolekr Date: Sun May 17 22:32:35 2015 -0400 18:38 rubenwardy physical = true makes collisions. I'd imagine it would cause problems with cart logic. https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12185 18:38 Krock rubenwardy, I had troubles with cart movements while re-writing. Try to make it = true and see what happens 18:38 RealBadAngel hmmmm, i saw that you mentioned something bout client side modding. any details? 18:39 Calinou rubenwardy, if physical = true the carts may stop when there are players inside them 18:39 kilbith est31, i confirm at singleplayer as well : https://lut.im/EeztKEzz/N8Agm44G 18:39 est31 ok 18:41 est31 it is really some commit between fb36c471d7c3 and 20aa78cffb6594ff8 18:41 est31 weird 18:41 est31 time for a bisect 18:41 est31 mini-bisect :) 18:46 est31 aaaaah 18:46 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/11a96e4901ce54c4646e47866f7a66cd9034c16b#diff-722710b5ecd9db42e7dd785dd517e186R1719 18:46 RealBadAngel Calinou, i wont make minimap showing more than 128x128, with more area visible you always can see unloaded blocks 18:46 Calinou ok, it's fine 18:47 VanessaE hmmmm: you bwoke it! :D 18:47 RealBadAngel and whole map (like 256*256) is visible only when you will stand down in one place for quite a while 18:47 est31 its understandable that he touched that line 18:47 hmmmm ? 18:47 est31 after all that one triggered a "unused int" warning 18:47 est31 still bad 18:48 est31 I'm not 100% sure yet whether thats the cause 18:48 est31 but its quite probabla 18:48 est31 e* 18:48 hmmmm ahhh... 18:49 hmmmm version was added in the 'generalized' version 18:49 hmmmm no wonder why 18:49 hmmmm yeah I broke it. reading in a 0x00 for alpha can cause text to appear black 18:49 hmmmm :p 18:49 hmmmm sorry guys 18:49 VanessaE haha 18:50 hmmmm didn't think that was used anymore 18:50 est31 what I still wonder is why the compiler warns there 18:50 RealBadAngel hmmmm, what bout cilent side modding? 18:50 hmmmm what about it 18:50 TeTpaAka Because the version is never used. 18:50 RealBadAngel i saw that you mentioned it as your to-do 18:50 TeTpaAka I added it to allow future versions to transmit more information. 18:50 est31 but its sent by the protocol, isn't it? 18:50 TeTpaAka It is sent. 18:51 rubenwardy Do we have a wikipage/maillist/github issues discussing the technical details of client side modding, and discussing APIs? 18:51 hmmmm not yet 18:51 est31 sending serialisation versions is very good thing to do 18:51 hmmmm you're free to start one though 18:52 TeTpaAka https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/genericobject.cpp#L179 18:52 est31 ah ok 18:52 TeTpaAka But an alpha of 0x00 would make it transparent? 18:53 TeTpaAka Why is it black? 18:53 hmmmm because the base image it's being blended with it is all black 18:54 est31 why is it an alpha of 0x00? Isn't alpha read at the start? 18:54 hmmmm because the current version is 0 18:54 est31 and version is 1... 18:54 TeTpaAka Yes, but version is 1, so it would be 0x01 18:54 est31 ah 18:54 est31 yea 18:54 hmmmm so then it's almost completely transparent 18:55 TeTpaAka But it would still be white? 18:55 hmmmm the blend would cause the resultant pixel to be 1, 1, 1, 1 18:55 hmmmm so it's not completely black 18:55 hmmmm just... very, very, VERY dark gray 18:56 VanessaE gimp confirms. 18:57 VanessaE RGBA = 010101FF 18:57 VanessaE (well the final composited result, that is) 18:57 est31 so basically transparency is broken now? 18:57 est31 (for nametags) 18:57 VanessaE est31: kilbith just reported that Homedecor's frosted glass skylights are also rendering in black 18:57 hmmmm huh? no 18:58 kilbith whereas the texture is white-ish 18:58 hmmmm transparency works as expected 18:58 hmmmm it doesn't blend with the background z-node like you think it should 18:58 TeTpaAka The problem is, the client is reading something as color that isn't a color. 18:58 est31 but when I deliberately set an alpha for a nametag, does that work? 18:58 hmmmm it doesn't 18:58 hmmmm don't bother setting an alpha, it defaults to 255 18:59 hmmmm which is completely opaque 18:59 est31 then you can't disable nametags... 18:59 hmmmm that's true 18:59 TeTpaAka Wait. As I tested it in the first version, I could hide the nametags. 18:59 hmmmm by adjusting the alpha?? 18:59 TeTpaAka Yes. 19:00 hmmmm that's odd 19:00 hmmmm does it work still if you set it to 0? 19:00 TeTpaAka I'm compiling right now. 19:00 hmmmm irrlicht has several transparency modes 19:00 TeTpaAka Have to adjust the source to respect the version, though. 19:00 hmmmm one is a blend, which is what I supposed this was 19:00 kilbith there : https://lut.im/rBB2MLaG/3dzYp3Um 19:00 hmmmm the second is with transparent pxiels 19:01 hmmmm kilbith, is that texture supposed to have alpha like that? 19:01 VanessaE hmmmm: it is, but it's supposed to be (and always has been) white as in the wield. 19:01 kilbith the texture is white is half-transparency 19:02 kilbith with* 19:02 VanessaE https://raw.githubusercontent.com/VanessaE/homedecor_modpack/master/homedecor/textures/homedecor_skylight_frosted.png 19:03 VanessaE I can confirm the black skylight on my end also. 19:04 hmmmm hm 19:04 TeTpaAka http://i.imgur.com/CV73CTW.png 19:05 TeTpaAka Still can disable namtag after adjusting the source back. 19:05 hmmmm change script/common/c_converter.cpp on line 240 to color.setAlpha(lua_isnumber(L, -1) ? lua_tonumber(L, -1) : 0); 19:05 hmmmm I doubt this is the problem but try it anyway 19:05 hmmmm it's perhaps the most impactful change i made 19:06 * est31 pushes in 1 minute https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/21ab396a90215ac2df09a744dfa3f88a449f41af 19:06 rubenwardy if (m_textnode != NULL) { 19:07 rubenwardy { is unnecessary, doesn't the linux code style say to leave them out 19:07 hmmmm perhaps so, but adding braces around single line conditionals is an option 19:07 hmmmm either way is valid for us 19:07 est31 will push https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/41d5b99ca3640c808b0d7f2634777ee7b779a725 19:07 est31 (fixed commit msg) 19:08 est31 pushed 19:10 TeTpaAka But still, why was it black in the first place. For me, they were transparent. 19:11 est31 dammit 19:12 est31 amended the commit to remove the kate swp file 19:13 rubenwardy lol 19:13 Calinou you shouldn't have said it 19:13 VanessaE est31: skylights are still black :( 19:15 TeTpaAka Can someone with the black nametags test what setting the alpha of the nametag color to 0 would cause? 19:16 TeTpaAka Now, after the fix, of cause. 19:16 est31 moment 19:19 est31 yea it *is* still there 19:19 est31 in gray 19:20 TeTpaAka Strange. I can't reproduce at all. 19:21 TeTpaAka That ruins the main cause, why I implemented this thing. I wanted to hide the players completely, including nametags. 19:21 TeTpaAka But that doesn't seem to work reliable. 19:21 est31 http://pasteboard.co/yNQbOdd.png 19:21 est31 there is a flag in the engine which can control the transfer distance of SAOs 19:21 est31 its better to use that instead 19:22 est31 because that way the server doesn't send useless movement packets 19:22 est31 and users can't hack their clients to see players 19:24 TeTpaAka No, I meant some sort of an item (invisibility cloak/potion) that makes a temporary effect. 19:25 Sokomine hmmmm: where can i find more information regarding minetest.set_gen_notify ? especially how to compose the flags parameter? i just wanted to take a look at the output of minetest.get_mapgen_object('gennotify') for now. maybe it can be used in the future to write a small mod that adds nodes and mobs into dungeons. there are so many empty ones there 19:26 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/5b03857c625633e8daea3e0118bf701a93109127 19:27 TeTpaAka Why are the nametags black for some but not for me? 19:27 est31 can you post a screenshot? 19:28 TeTpaAka I already did. http://i.imgur.com/CV73CTW.png 19:29 Sokomine hmmmm: ah. found it through google. the dev wiki lists it in a diffrent way than lua_api.txt 19:32 TeTpaAka Closer: http://i.imgur.com/xp3wIHx.png 19:34 TeTpaAka Does at least setting the color work for you? 19:34 est31 yes 19:35 est31 can you try against a lighter background 19:35 est31 ? 19:35 est31 (eg sky) 19:37 est31 "Error 503 Service Unavailable" thanks sourceforge 19:39 TeTpaAka est31: http://i.imgur.com/okgLVzi.png 19:41 kilbith skylight node with normal drawtype : https://lut.im/QAQmJhtD/urQrYvFt same node with plantlike : https://lut.im/Fr1xiwDH/raQCgO1a 19:42 est31 can you bisect kilbith or VanessaE? 19:42 TeTpaAka In front of sky: http://i.imgur.com/nQwPLST.png 19:42 est31 hm, very weird 19:43 est31 perhaps your irrlicht build has other standard values 19:43 VanessaE est31: I could try I guess. 19:43 est31 I'm trying to solve that name issue, while you bisect, ok? 19:43 est31 multi-threading :) 19:43 TeTpaAka How can I find out? 19:44 est31 TeTpaAka, was a weird guess 19:45 VanessaE est31: bisecting now.. 19:45 est31 TeTpaAka, which distro do you run on? 19:46 TeTpaAka Kubuntu 14.04 19:46 est31 hrmm 19:47 est31 (side note: dont switch to 15.10, its horribly buggy) 19:47 TeTpaAka Thanks. 19:47 Calinou 15.10 isn't released yet… 19:47 est31 ummm 15.04 19:47 TeTpaAka I tested shaders. Works with and without. 19:48 VanessaE wtf? 19:48 VanessaE 2015-05-18 15:55:04: ERROR[main]: ...ssa/.minetest/games/minetest_game/mods/default/nodes.lua:1554: attempt to call a nil value 19:48 VanessaE minetest_game is at HEAD 19:49 VanessaE I'm in the middle of the bisect and it throws this error. the connect-to-raillike patch apparently. 19:49 VanessaE use of it, I mean 19:50 est31 weird 19:50 est31 what I do on these occasions is firing up git bisect show 19:50 est31 and then checking out another commit in that list 19:50 VanessaE I just need to back minetest_game down to something old-ish 19:51 est31 or that 19:51 ElectronLibre VanessaE, I got this one or two days ago, you are running a version of minetest (engine)'s builtin without the rail-group system (that's what I assumed). 19:51 VanessaE ElectronLibre: yeah I know. 19:51 ElectronLibre So yes, comment (it's the only raillike line in the whole repo) or downgrade. 19:51 VanessaE there, rolled it back to dd34dffa 19:51 * VanessaE continues .. 20:03 TeTpaAka The software renderer seems to ignore the alpha. Though the nametag is still white. 20:07 VanessaE *sigh* 20:07 VanessaE est31: the bisect failed. All the way back to 0.4.12-release 20:09 est31 so its an old bug? 20:09 VanessaE idk, I don't remember seeing it do this 20:09 VanessaE I'm gonna run through it again 20:10 est31 it can be because of freetype 20:10 est31 TeTpaAka, do you use freetype? 20:10 VanessaE eh? I'm working on the thing with the glass skylight being black. 20:12 TeTpaAka Doesn't seem so. Now testing with it. 20:13 est31 lol was directed at TeTpaAka VanessaE :) 20:13 VanessaE oh ok :) 20:17 TeTpaAka est31: With freetype it is grey. 20:18 est31 then its freetype's fault 20:18 est31 hrmmm 20:20 TeTpaAka Hiding can be done by removing the nametag object. I'll code it in a few days. (Don't have time now). 20:20 TeTpaAka That should at least be reliable. 20:20 est31 yea 20:34 est31 ok setting the visibility is enough 20:43 est31 pushing in 10 minutes: https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/b5f41798eeb1bd28a0028889aaeaa422785e3a57 20:59 est31 kahrl, you there? 21:00 est31 I'm wondering about your code :) 21:01 est31 there is #2710, and most likely the person runs a a bad mod, but I'm not 100% sure what we require from mods to do 21:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2710 -- Node Drop Errors 21:02 est31 I've traced it back to your commit : https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/157a4cf18cb9c098f465b8baecd7d2cd5705f2dd#diff-494a8464a5335033fe2460099e805050R197 21:04 est31 I guess a mod just specified something wrongly 21:04 est31 nvm, I think I've understood the code. 21:04 est31 thanks though+ 21:10 VanessaE est31: bisect for the frosted skylight issue failed again. 21:11 est31 so 0.4.12 is noted as "bad"?? 21:11 VanessaE if I bisect all the way back to 0.4.11, I get http://pastebin.com/UZNg1K7E (my minetest_game is still too new, all the skips are due to some mapgen function used). if I mark the first good commit as 0.4.12, I get http://pastebin.com/VUeyg3kA 21:12 VanessaE neither of these makes sense 21:12 VanessaE and I made sure to dig and re-place the object at each test. 21:12 VanessaE here's the relevant code in the mod: https://github.com/VanessaE/homedecor_modpack/blob/master/homedecor/shingles.lua#L14 21:13 est31 so 0.4.12 itself is good?? 21:13 VanessaE idk. In the above code, the only thing I noticed is that paramtype = "light" isn't specified ... but that shouldn't be needed should it? 21:14 est31 no idea 21:15 kilbith no, this doesnt affects anything here 21:24 VanessaE found the problem. paramtype = "light" got dropped from that entry a few weeks ago, and it IS needed. 21:25 kilbith a new node has to be placed to see that difference 21:25 VanessaE that begs the question: why isn't paramtype defaulted to "light"? 21:26 VanessaE seeing as how that's overwhelmingly the most common mode for param1 21:27 est31 changing defaults is dangerous 21:30 VanessaE perhaps 21:30 VanessaE but in this case I highly doubt it'll break anything 21:31 VanessaE seems to only be a problem with certain drawtypes 21:31 VanessaE "normal" cubes don't seem to need it (e.g. HD's bathroom tiles, which were missing that mode, worked fine despite) 21:32 VanessaE but raillike and plantlike do. 21:32 kilbith mesh as well 21:37 VanessaE in any case either it needs to be fixed to be consistent across all drawtypes, or the drawtype-specific behavior needs to be documented. 21:39 est31 yes 22:41 est31 argh 22:42 est31 gonna remove yet another errorstream 22:59 est31 10 minutes till I merge https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/497299afd62e2f9b18dbf2a366bb22996e73102b 23:12 hmmmm est31, why exactly?? 23:12 hmmmm aren't those things errors? 23:16 est31 they can be triggered by users 23:16 hmmmm ahh 23:16 est31 errorstream is distributed to the whole server 23:17 hmmmm if anything i think we should have a separate logging level for that 23:17 hmmmm "a client is acting goofy stream" 23:18 est31 lol 23:18 hmmmm it could be helpful in identifying what are basically hack clients 23:18 est31 yea 23:18 hmmmm or maybe people making bots that try to crack accounts 23:18 est31 or try-to-hack ones 23:19 hmmmm or more likely is that it's a developer error 23:19 hmmmm well 23:19 hmmmm actionstream is logged by default so it's good 23:19 hmmmm what's your take on shadowninja's logging cleanup 23:19 est31 I like the warning loglevel 23:20 hmmmm yes 23:20 hmmmm i like the idea of a warning loglevel, and i'd like to get it committed before it version control rots any more 23:20 hmmmm but there's the whole dstream thing 23:20 est31 your only concern is the removed dstreamß 23:20 est31 ? 23:20 hmmmm basically yeah 23:21 hmmmm some things SN does are like wtf to me 23:21 est31 we most certainly need a way for 1. lua's print, and 2. the unittests 23:21 hmmmm dstream is purposely out-of-band because it's explicitly for debugging 23:21 hmmmm this rules out any issues with the regular logging facilities 23:21 est31 OTOH, one can use errorstream for debugging too 23:21 hmmmm yeah 23:24 est31 btw how did he fix print()? 23:26 hmmmm by using actionstream i thought 23:27 est31 I dont know whether I like that 23:28 est31 but mostly I think the situation is better than before 23:28 hmmmm I think we should set the modname global before each callback 23:29 est31 ? 23:29 hmmmm that way mods have their own names after initialization, and print could use it too for printing out the modname responsible 23:29 hmmmm as it stands right now, mods only know their own name during initialization 23:29 est31 yea thats the only point its well-defined 23:30 hmmmm if they don't store it somewhere else, they can't access it anymore 23:30 est31 the issue is that mods share a common lua context 23:30 est31 imagine intllib 23:30 est31 that library never directly interacts with the engine 23:30 hmmmm anything printed by intllib in lua would assume the modname that called it 23:30 est31 yea 23:30 hmmmm isn't that reasonable enough?? 23:32 est31 its only the modname of the callback 23:33 est31 I dont like that 23:33 est31 I'm wondering about something else related to this 23:34 est31 there is an issue about a crash in builtin lua code 23:34 est31 it has been mostly a mod's fault 23:34 est31 now I wonder whether we should make code validate the input it got 23:34 est31 and make smarter erro messages 23:35 est31 not "this is nil, you wanted to dereference it" 23:35 est31 but "item definition of node 'modname:nodename' is missing recipe" 23:35 hmmmm hmm 23:35 hmmmm that's harder said than done 23:35 hmmmm you have to code defensively literally everywhere 23:35 est31 yea... 23:36 hmmmm so it'd be a big modification, but it would be worthwhile i think 23:36 hmmmm is this about the blank craft receipe string crash? 23:36 est31 no the other one 23:36 est31 2710 23:37 est31 blank craft recipe is perhaps a mod error too, I guess 23:40 est31 "goofystream" 23:40 hmmmm nah but seriously 23:40 hmmmm if we do add a goofystream it should be something like... 23:41 hmmmm auditstream 23:41 hmmmm ? 23:41 hmmmm because as a server owner, you'd want to audit for suspicious events 23:41 hmmmm actionstream works fine enough though 23:42 est31 yea 23:42 est31 its a bit crowded ... 23:43 hmmmm what would be a really worthwhile log enhancement is if you could split the different levels into different logfiles 23:43 hmmmm right now the log infrastructure is set up so that you could do that, but the way it's being used by minetest is that it uses the same file for everything 23:43 est31 yes 23:44 est31 there is also this ncurses thing 23:44 hmmmm lol 23:44 hmmmm what does ncurses have to do with this 23:45 est31 because it will modify log output too 23:45 est31 then there is also possible systemd integration 23:45 hmmmm kill it with fire 23:45 est31 all about how to bring logging to users 23:45 hmmmm we shouldn't integrate with something that disrespects our freedoms :/ 23:46 hmmmm systemd is pretty evil 23:46 hmmmm in any case you realize what ncurses is right? 23:46 exio4 hmmmm: that's because you aren't hipster, if you were hipster, systemd would be perfect for you! 23:46 est31 hmmmm, yes I know 23:46 est31 for interactive server console 23:47 est31 exio4, the issue is that non-systemd is dying. 23:47 hmmmm oh 23:47 hmmmm I hope that systemd is just a fad 23:47 hmmmm it needs to die soon 23:47 hmmmm ncurses would be an interface with which to view the logs 23:48 hmmmm if there's an interactive server console, my opinion is that it shouldn't modify the logs at all 23:48 est31 systemd is the (pretty bad) continuation of where unix stopped. it defines much more APIs. 23:48 est31 sorry better expression would be "recieve" than modify 23:49 est31 pretty bad not just because it is glibc and linux only 23:52 hmmmm systemd is basically worse than windows 23:52 hmmmm same binary log file format and all that jazz, same cryptic BS, same bloaty API, same obscure stuff 23:52 hmmmm except systemd takes on the roles of csrss.exe, smss.exe, svchost.exe, and all the services 23:52 est31 my hope is that its developers learn 23:53 hmmmm well honestly 23:53 est31 they are still different processes 23:53 hmmmm oh they are? 23:53 hmmmm I thought systemd had them all in the same pid 1 process 23:53 hmmmm just as loadable .sos 23:54 est31 ps -A -l | grep systemd | wc -l gives me 7 23:54 hmmmm i guess that's a little bit better... not by much though 23:54 est31 with pids of 1 319 350 665 890 1504 and 2300 23:54 hmmmm systemd isn't the result of developers forgetting design lessons from the past 23:54 hmmmm i think it's much more malicious 23:55 est31 systemd-journal systemd-udevd systemd-logind systemd-timesyn and three times "systemd" 23:55 est31 the linux world has one great weakness and problem 23:55 hmmmm poul henning kemp had a nice presentation about how easy it is for malicious actors to insert backdoors or whatever into open source 23:55 est31 its that its so heterogenous 23:56 hmmmm that being said, systemd has all the hallmarks of being placed there by the NSA 23:56 hmmmm i don't fucking trust systemd on my own computer 23:56 est31 ok thats possible 23:56 est31 you have bsd havent you? 23:56 hmmmm yeah 23:56 hmmmm it's like openrc 23:56 exio4 systemd is too bloated, it does too much, and its 'bugs' are things that were fixed 15 years ago 23:57 hmmmm if i recall, didn't arch linux switch from openrc to systemd?? 23:57 exio4 it didn't use openrc, but its own minimal init system to systemd 23:57 hmmmm that's a damn shame 23:57 est31 thats precisely the issue 23:57 exio4 Archlinux's init system was really easy to modify and swap out, now it is systemd 23:57 est31 everybody wrote their own "little" init system 23:58 exio4 systemd is the worst of those little init systems, plus scope creep :) 23:58 est31 at the end, when you want to write a service, every distro has to maintain their own init scripts because they are different for every distro 23:58 hmmmm no i think systemd would be fine if it stuck to what it originally was, and it didn't get pushed into distros, and things didn't become dependent on it 23:58 est31 thats alot of work just wasted 23:58 hmmmm instead we have this hostile takeover thanks to red hat and the gnome foundation 23:58 hmmmm jerks.. 23:59 exio4 hmmmm: yeah, the scope creep and hostile behavior is what put people off 23:59 hmmmm how can one organization have so much control over linux 23:59 hmmmm this goes against open source 23:59 est31 "open source" is for me "the right to merge"