Time  Nick         Message
03:01 technomancy  I have a question about whether my idea for a mod would work with the limitations of the minetest engine. I want to do something similar to http://computercraft.info/ where the game adds computer blocks with a simple OS on them, but it seems like this would be extremely problematic because Lua has no support for pre-emptive multitasking out of the box; one problematic script could take down the whole server.
03:03 technomancy  does minetest do anything to help in this case? does allowing the user to run sandboxed lua code threaten the stability of the server?
03:03 technomancy  I mean, it's easy to sandbox what resources a given script is allowed to access, except for time.
04:18 est31        technomancy, look here https://github.com/Jeija/minetest-mod-mesecons/blob/master/mesecons_luacontroller/init.lua#L368
04:18 est31        its using that method
04:18 technomancy  est31: iiiiinteresting. that's promising.
04:19 technomancy  so does that force a yield, or just kill the coroutine?
04:20 est31        http://www.lua.org/pil/23.2.html
04:23 technomancy  I see. In this case it kills it, but it should be possible to simply yield instead.
04:23 est31        ?
04:24 technomancy  I would like the execution to be allowed to continue as long as the rest of the engine is given time to run.
04:25 est31        as I said, there is no real concurrency
04:25 technomancy  yeah, I don't need actual concurrency.
04:26 technomancy  it seems like a forced yield after a max number of instructions can approximate pre-emptive multitasking even if you don't actually have multiple things happening at once
04:26 technomancy  but at the very least it's possible to kill out-of-control programs, and that may be good enough
05:26 technomancy  https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8459459/lua-coroutine-error-tempt-to-yield-across-metamethod-c-call-boundary could be problematic
05:26 technomancy  but I don't know enough about minetest's engine to know whether I'd run into this
05:27 technomancy  oh... apparently might not be a problem with luajit?
05:27 est31        dunno
05:28 est31        I don't even know whether coroutines will work with minetest
05:28 technomancy  what luajit version is used?
05:32 est31        minetest just uses the lib
05:32 est31        so no limitation :)
05:32 est31        or there is but still more than one
05:34 est31        if I remember right, there is code that warns you if you use buggy luajit
05:36 technomancy  oh, you provide whatever luajit version you want?
05:36 technomancy  cool
07:02 jin_xi       technomancy: others have already tried and done some work, see this thread: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=10185
07:02 jin_xi       this even resulted in a pull request for keyboard input, which got shut down
07:03 jin_xi       https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1737 which killed the enthusiasm it seems
07:03 technomancy  jin_xi: huh... but somehow luacontroller is able to get keyboard input?
07:03 technomancy  is this about keyboard input outside a form?
07:03 jin_xi       yes
07:03 jin_xi       well, outside a text element
07:04 technomancy  gotcha. yeah, the text element is pretty weak sauce vs what's available in computercraft. =\
07:06 technomancy  jin_xi: it's hard to tell what's going on in this conversation without knowing which comments are form core devs. has anyone spoken with authority on this change, or has it just been enough random people shitting on it to make the original author give up?
07:06 technomancy  *from core devs
07:08 jin_xi       the thread starts off badly, but then its two dudes working on a mod. core devs have special green names in the forums
07:08 technomancy  oh sorry; I meant the github issue
07:09 technomancy  wow, I didn't realize luacontrollers couldn't have loops and functions =\
07:09 jin_xi       hm, sapier used to be a coredev but has not been around
07:10 technomancy  he is not listed on https://github.com/minetest/minetest/graphs/contributors
07:11 jin_xi       weird, he did many commits
07:12 technomancy  "I have pretty much dropped this idea because formspecs are very limited." =(
07:12 jin_xi       where is that from?
07:13 technomancy  https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=8399
07:14 jin_xi       yeah anything remotely dynamic is very much doomed in minetest
07:14 technomancy  blargh
07:14 technomancy  just when I was feeling very accomplished for figuring out how to get sandboxing and pre-emption working
07:14 technomancy  it looks like one of these guys just switched to computercraft
07:15 technomancy  but I'd rather just give up than start building on a proprietary platform
07:15 jin_xi       thats the spirit
07:16 jin_xi       you can get some dynamic stuff done via stitching together images, it works well enough for a tetris
07:17 technomancy  for output, yeah
07:17 technomancy  seems like without this input PR it's dead in the water though
07:18 jin_xi       i gave it my +1 for what its worth and am in full support for reviving that discussion
07:18 technomancy  thanks. I'll look into it some more.
07:19 jin_xi       also sapier is gone and left many a feature done badly
07:19 technomancy  heh
07:19 jin_xi       so that argument maybe is not so strong
07:19 technomancy  it's good to know what's out there. I did some searching but didn't find this discussion.
07:19 nore         sfan5: can I merge game#511?
07:19 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/511 -- Use connect_to_raillike for default:rail (2nd try) by Wuzzy2
07:21 technomancy  jin_xi: the most encouraging thing is that ninnghazad seems to imply that the debug.sethook approach works to prevent scripts from blocking the rest of the engine
07:22 technomancy  the most cringeworthy part is that his mod is called "dronetest"
07:23 jin_xi       lets hope no one makes a wedding mod
07:24 jin_xi       but from the repo it looks like quite some work has been done
07:25 technomancy  nothing since december, but yeah. less for me to do.
07:26 technomancy  I was pretty excited to get my toy little OS working on my own, but I don't mind throwing that away
07:45 OldCoder     sfan5, present?
07:47 OldCoder     Zeno`, hi
07:56 Zeno`        hi, how's things?
16:31 RealBadAngel hi
16:31 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/QhKRhLP.png
16:32 RealBadAngel finally i managed to show textures as meshes :)
16:33 RealBadAngel easy to rotate them in 3d space and have them visible on screen plane
16:33 RealBadAngel that will make rotating items in inventories possible even
16:35 kilbith      impressive
16:42 RealBadAngel that would solve many issues, like hud elements not workin properly with interlacing or other 3d rendering modes
16:42 Krock        next step: tiny 3d model of the minimap, rotateable by couse drag
16:42 Krock        *mouse drag
16:42 kilbith      RBA, can we have a round map instead ?
16:42 Krock        ^
16:42 RealBadAngel thats possible
16:42 RealBadAngel kilbith, ofc, thats the main idea
16:42 RealBadAngel i will just apply round mask to minimap now
16:43 RealBadAngel and the map will rotate when player moves
16:43 RealBadAngel another advantage it can be shaded with shaders now
16:44 RealBadAngel and i do have stored already height map of the scanned area
16:44 RealBadAngel so minimap will be 3d
16:44 RealBadAngel or at least will look like 3d :)
17:26 Calinou      the arrow should be less ugly :x
17:26 Calinou      well, it can be removed if minimap is round and rotates
17:26 Calinou      instead we'll show a slight grey “+”
18:00 kilbith      the grey "+" doesnt indicate the facing direction
18:00 est31        RealBadAngel, any feedback from gsmanners about license?
18:01 RealBadAngel no, but i wont need him
18:01 est31        ?
18:01 RealBadAngel nothing of his code left by now ;)
18:02 RealBadAngel Calinou, map is already round and rotating :)
18:02 Calinou      cool
18:02 Calinou      Rei will be angry :3
18:02 est31        http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/260347/ship-of-theseus-applied-to-gpl-can-i-relicense-my-program-if-i-replace-all-of
18:02 RealBadAngel est, we are not philosophers :P
18:03 Calinou      StackExchange is GPL hate party
18:03 * Calinou    tries to avoid SE as much as possible
18:03 Calinou      its login also requires third-party cookies
18:03 RealBadAngel you will compare the  code
18:03 est31        Stackexchange puts all content into free license
18:03 Calinou      it's not like we'll be sued over a minimap anyway
18:03 est31        thats better than other forum sites
18:03 RealBadAngel literally nothing is as gsmanner did it
18:03 est31        not even minetest forum has it anymore
18:04 RealBadAngel im using totally different techniques even
18:04 est31        what about just simply *asking* him?
18:04 est31        perhaps he sais "yes its ok?"
18:04 RealBadAngel i did, no answer
18:08 est31        when you list him in the copyright boilerplate inside the header then he must have agreed to the according license
18:09 est31        either way, if he doesnt agree, then we still can change the license of minetest to GPL. who needs that "lesser" anyway.
18:10 RealBadAngel if there wont be any of his code why should i put him into copyright note? i can just mention that he inspired me
18:11 est31        yea I think inspiration is fair use
18:12 est31        but I guess whether its GPL or LGPL is decided when one actually wants to use the "lesser" part of the license
18:12 est31        if*
18:13 est31        so, from my POV, its ok to merge the code
18:13 est31        because I don't really care whether its LGPL or GPL
18:13 est31        as long as its free
18:14 Calinou      if it stays GPL, we might include it provided we provide a --no-gpl build option
18:15 Hijiri       LGPL matters when dynamically linking to minetest, right
18:16 Hijiri       but how would that work
18:16 est31        dunno
18:16 est31        perhaps mods can be interpreted that way??
18:16 Hijiri       as in the mods are dynamically linking to minetest?
18:17 Hijiri       actually I'm not sure at all how interpreted programs work with GPL and friends
18:17 Calinou      ask licensing@fsf.org
18:17 est31        there is an entry in the GPL faq about stuff like this
18:18 est31        they say "if communication is intimate enough, its like static linking"
18:18 Hijiri       I thought it was "if communication is intimate enough, its like using a library"
18:18 est31        I mean its similar to the IPC issue which even GPL doesnt impose any restrictions (or freedoms if you are fsf :p) upon.
18:19 Hijiri       in the context of people trying to run a separate program and use message channels of some sort to avoid it being technically a library
18:20 est31        yea
18:20 est31        but applies to simpler examples too
18:20 Hijiri       GPL FAQ says However, when the interpreter is extended to provide “bindings” to other facilities (often, but not necessarily, libraries), the interpreted program is effectively linked to the facilities it uses through these bindings.
18:21 Hijiri       minetest provides bindings to minetest API things
18:21 Hijiri       so I assume that means mod scripts count as linked to an LGPL library
18:21 Hijiri       or GPL if it's GPL
18:21 est31        yea I think that has been the reason for the switch
18:22 est31        perhaps LGPL isnt that bad after all...
18:22 Hijiri       which switch?
18:22 est31        minetest has originally been GPL if I'm right
18:22 Hijiri       oh
18:23 Calinou      yes, before June 2012
18:23 Calinou      marktraceur refused license change to clouds code was rewritten
18:23 Calinou      est31, ideally we'd be using permissive license from the start
18:23 Calinou      this is what celeron wanted
18:23 Calinou      (no one should use GPLv2 on new projects in 2015… either use permissive of GPLv3)
18:23 Calinou      or*
18:26 est31        so why didnt he do it then? :)
18:26 Calinou      probably didn't think about it
18:27 celeron55    because i was a big dummy in 2010
18:27 celeron55    or actually 2011
18:28 celeron55    that's when i accepted the first GPL licensed contributions
18:28 Calinou      yeah, thought so
18:29 Calinou      Buildat is Apache 2 for comparison
19:54 TenPlus1     Hi folks...
19:56 TenPlus1     Update on std::bad_alloc error... it seems newly generated areas also create map errors which cause this problem... I found out today as a player dug down and at a certain spot the server crashed again
20:32 TeTpaAka     Why does PlayerSAO::setHP check only for enable_damage when the new hp is smaller than the old hp? Shouldn't enable_damage = false forbid any hp change?
20:33 RealBadAngel just realized one important thing that comes with my render to screen plane
20:33 RealBadAngel we wont need inventory cubes anymore thx to that
20:34 VanessaE     oh G*d, please make that a reality
20:34 VanessaE     :)
20:34 RealBadAngel thats damn easy in fact
20:35 RealBadAngel you just add a mesh there
20:35 RealBadAngel set the mesh rotation, position and you got it
20:35 RealBadAngel it can have rotation animator too
20:50 VanessaE     RealBadAngel: one thing that's needed is a way to tell the engine to just render the object like it normally does, and specifically to be able to set the location of the virtual camera so that e.g. a small model or nodebox can be scaled up to fit the inventory slot (instead of using an inventory image)
20:52 RealBadAngel you dont need to set the camera for such plane
20:53 RealBadAngel you just define meshes position compared to the middle of the screen
20:53 VanessaE     I mean e.g a mesh node or something else that often ends up wrongly-sized when it's rendered to texture
20:55 RealBadAngel you should then just define inventory visual scale perhaps
20:55 VanessaE     yeah, something like that.
20:55 VanessaE     but for some objects, setting the camera position may be useful too
20:56 RealBadAngel such plane has fixed camera
20:57 RealBadAngel only way to move it is to move your monitor lol
20:57 VanessaE     heh
20:57 RealBadAngel its meant i think for hud and shit like that
20:58 RealBadAngel but name of it and description doesnt suggest that in any way :)
20:58 RealBadAngel https://github.com/zaki/irrlicht/blob/master/tests/material.cpp#L25
20:58 RealBadAngel ^^ sample usage
20:59 RealBadAngel http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/docu/classirr_1_1scene_1_1_i_scene_manager.html#a2eb986c6975ebc1aa1f68c878ac8dcda
21:07 RealBadAngel VanessaE, http://i.imgur.com/Vd1FIRR.png
21:08 RealBadAngel the bigger one is visible on that plane, it rotating when player moves, compare on both orientation on red/green details on the ground
22:24 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/ioCKtrP.jpg
23:20 est31        RBA: just seen that image: nice!
23:31 est31        But its an option to have round vs rectangular maps right?
23:53 RealBadAngel i will make it that way propably