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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-05-09

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Time Nick Message
00:00 hmmmm say it out loud in a sentence: "oh this variable is the mtsetting value"
00:00 hmmmm vs. "this is the setting instead"
00:01 hmmmm the latter of the two sounds like you were having a conversation with somebody, and you don't have a sentence or two of context
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00:01 hmmmm the former can stand on its own
00:06 paramat hmmmm i'm beginning to think #2665 may just be a natural result of using a lua mapgen with a heavy use of noise. my own tests show watershed uses up to 1.5GB of memory, riverdev uses up to 2GB (10 3D noises, 6 2D noises)
00:06 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2665 -- get_perlin_map consumes all memory and brings down servers
00:06 hmmmm no there's a memory leak somewhere
00:07 hmmmm i was trying something out before
00:07 paramat aha
00:07 hmmmm also see the two other issues related to memory
00:08 paramat ok
00:12 paramat it's also present in 0.4.12 stable, same results
00:21 paramat testing mgv7, it has a steady rise in memory use when flying and generating, after 5 mins i'm up to 2GB usage. if i stop exploring it stays level
00:21 paramat doesn't fall
00:22 hmmmm sure... but that has nothing to do with noise
00:23 hmmmm set the unused block unload timeout to be very short, after flying around you should expect the memory usage to be around what you started at
00:23 paramat whereas a lua mapgen has a rise and fall of memory use during flying and generating
00:23 hmmmm like after flying around, stare at the ground and do nothing for a few minutes
00:24 paramat seems a core mapgen problem
00:24 hmmmm eh, i'm not so sure it's a mapgen problem
00:24 hmmmm the mapgen allocates no memory when it's generating map
00:24 hmmmm unless there was some kind of change i wasn't aware of
00:40 paramat ok with block unload timeout of 1 min the memory use rise is slower, 1GB after 5min. now staring at the ground but no reduction yet
01:13 paramat same behaviour in mgv5. flying back and forth over generated terrain doesn't increase memory use, seems to be due to generating new terrain
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01:47 hmmmm est31, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1885
01:51 Zeno` noooooO!
01:51 Zeno` That is not good
01:51 hmmmm good or not good
01:51 Zeno` not
01:51 hmmmm [05:49 PM] <est31> hmmmm, what do you think is the preprocessor hack ugly or nice? https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/​4129674ad8446ada991b842041d0bcae775cd738
01:51 hmmmm est31 wants to bring CoreSettings back
01:52 Zeno` oh hang on./.
01:52 hmmmm I think it's great, personally, instead of adding some kind of callback mechanism why not just make settings fast
01:52 hmmmm and atomic
01:53 Zeno` that's my second version, so it's half ok
01:54 Zeno` The reason I left this and didn't complete what I started is I realised it wasn't worth it
01:55 Zeno` The whole (current) design is kind of wrong
01:55 Zeno` hang on...
01:55 hmmmm est is very eager to code stuff =]
01:57 Zeno` How is this new version faster?
01:57 Zeno` oh i see
01:58 hmmmm a single memory location read vs. a lock, a std::map lookup, and then a string-to-whatever conversion??
01:58 Zeno` Yes, well this is more like how it should have been done
01:58 Zeno` in the first place I mean
01:58 hmmmm right
01:59 hmmmm this doesn't replace callbacks
01:59 Zeno` *nod*
01:59 hmmmm callbacks and this can coexist peacefully
01:59 Zeno` I don't give a @*(#*@ about callbacks tbh :)
01:59 hmmmm they need to be there so events can be triggered on changing a setting other than setting the value to something new
01:59 Zeno` If I had gotten back to this, this (est31 current) is more like how I would have approached it
02:00 hmmmm well actually no that doesn't need to be there
02:00 Zeno` the callback cannot hurt... it's actually nice to know if a setting has changed
02:00 hmmmm well if a setting has been Set
02:00 Zeno` yes
02:00 hmmmm if a setting had set called on it and it happened to be the same value as it was previously, there's no telling
02:01 Zeno` yes, but there is a fine line there :)
02:02 hmmmm btw zeno, how do you feel about overloading functions and operator overloading in general
02:02 Zeno` kahrl and I had this discussion when I noticed that something was using some setting like it was a variable
02:02 Zeno` which was obviously very, very, very slow
02:02 hmmmm est wants to get rid of the setU32() setBool() etc. distinctions and have overloaded set()
02:03 Zeno` :(
02:03 Zeno` I don't like it
02:03 hmmmm all in the name of 'expressiveness'
02:03 hmmmm grr
02:03 hmmmm hold a vote
02:03 Zeno` why, grrr? :)
02:03 hmmmm because I want things to be immediately obvious and not dependent upon context
02:04 Zeno` just let me remember why I don't like it... I have to look something up
02:04 Zeno` oh this is just for settings you mean?
02:04 hmmmm yeah
02:04 hmmmm btw what is our policy on operator overloading?
02:05 Zeno` that's different. I thought you meant in general (everywhere)
02:05 Zeno` for settings it makes sense
02:06 Zeno` My "policy" is that if the calling "program" should never, ever, care what the internals should be then it's ok
02:07 Zeno` it can get confusing
02:08 Zeno` I think maybe getNode() is a good example
02:08 Zeno` nope, that's not a good example of this, but it is confusing
02:09 hmmmm so in general we can agree that being explicit is better than implicit
02:09 Zeno` in general, yes
02:09 hmmmm overloaded things require context to make sense of them, and context means that you have a higher cognitive burden
02:10 hmmmm minetest is already complicated enough as it is
02:10 hmmmm ugh
02:10 Zeno` correct, so the more abstracted something is the more implicit it can be
02:11 Zeno` *sigh*
02:11 Zeno` minetest is not like that though
02:11 Zeno` just look at how intermingled and entrenched irrlicht is
02:11 Zeno` there is no reason for that... there is no "separation"
02:12 hmmmm switching to a new engine would be a great time for fixing this
02:12 Zeno` so I think adding implicitness all over the place is, in general, not a good idea at this time
02:12 hmmmm i think it can be done without restarting the entire project from scratch
02:12 Zeno` I believe it could be done as well
02:13 Zeno` I even started
02:13 Zeno` :)
02:13 Zeno` but then got sidetracked haha
02:13 Zeno` (I don't start things that I don't believe can be done)
02:18 Zeno` going back, for settings I think explicit like setU32() is silly because  a) The programmer *must know the type anyway* of the setting (i.e. selecting the right function depends upon the actual setting so you have to have a general idea at least of the setting type to store a value of that type in a local object, which you are likely to base your new set() call off))
02:18 Zeno` hmmmm, do you know Qt?
02:18 hmmmm nope
02:19 Zeno` http://doc.qt.io/qt-4.8/qvariant.html
02:19 hmmmm so I guess set() works, but definitely not get()
02:19 Zeno` That is a class I actually like
02:19 hmmmm that's downright dangerous
02:20 Zeno` so you have a settings class that returns a QVariant (I'm just rambling for an example)...
02:20 hmmmm QVariant.asString() or something?
02:20 Zeno` then you can do assert(var.isBool); then bool var = var.toBool()
02:20 Zeno` asBool()
02:20 Zeno` yeah
02:21 hmmmm it does seem architecturally nice but isn't that going to be more efficient in the long run
02:21 hmmmm less efficient i mean
02:21 hmmmm what's wrong with what we got
02:22 Zeno` correct. I'm just using it as an example where I think the implicitness is done Right(TM)
02:22 Zeno` QVariant is mostly used for settings and callbacks
02:22 hmmmm the beer we got drank pretty gud, don't it?
02:22 Zeno` heh
02:22 hmmmm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZoTJzh13n8
02:23 Zeno` By example, it was more an answer to your question in general... not an answer for minetest :P
02:23 hmmmm you're going to write the same amount of code to do it either way
02:23 hmmmm probably more code with the QVariant-type thing
02:24 Zeno` lots more code
02:24 hmmmm each getThing() maps to a get() + an asThing()
02:24 Zeno` I'm not suggesting it as an answer :)
02:24 Zeno` Sometimes I just like discussing things heh
02:24 Zeno` I should preclude these discussions with <StartRamblingNow>
02:25 Zeno` Next we'll be using templates for Settings....
02:26 hmmmm pew
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02:27 Zeno` yay
02:27 Zeno` oops, spoke to soon.
02:27 Zeno` android is annoying :(
02:53 Zeno` maybe it's a java error :(
02:55 Zeno` E/minetest(17340): Shutting down minetest.
02:55 Zeno` V/threaded_app(17340): android_app_destroy!
02:55 Zeno` and yet... it's still there in the task manager
02:57 Zeno` maybe I can check the android version somehow and just put the exit(0) hack back
03:29 Zeno` hmmmm
03:29 Zeno` https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/f1ccfd3c3d7d626087f70b8c5798110cd28b248a​#diff-60aa608aac2fefb1a86d4c2861a08eb7R361
03:29 hmmmm yes i know
03:29 hmmmm didn't somebody fix that already?
03:29 Zeno` doesn't look like it
03:29 hmmmm :|
03:33 Zeno` I wonder if I added the incorrect assert
03:33 Zeno` (i.e. should have been assert (i <= 6);)
03:34 hmmmm no, because i can never be equal to 6 inside of that loop
03:34 hmmmm it's supposed to range from 0 to 5
03:34 hmmmm 0 to 5 is 6 materials
03:34 Zeno` lol
03:35 hmmmm but the assert was completely incorrect.  this is a class of bugs
03:35 Zeno` yes
03:35 hmmmm developers too smart for their own good think they're adding correctness by using an assert() in a place where input is provided by a remote peer
03:35 hmmmm i think this is the 4th? time this particular class of bug cropped up
03:37 Zeno` when I changed the asserts to remain in release builds the only ones I left as assert were ones I were not sure of, or ones I put back because sapier said "no, they're real asserts"
03:37 Zeno` I were, I were!
03:37 Zeno` I must have missed that one
03:38 Zeno` wait... filename starts with w
03:38 Zeno` I would have been sick to death of checking everything by the time I got to w lol
03:38 Zeno` =D
03:43 Zeno` Did a recent commit change font sizes?
03:45 hmmmm doesn't look like it
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03:47 Zeno` weird
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04:20 Zeno` #2665 for anyone awake
04:21 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2665 -- get_perlin_map consumes all memory and brings down servers
04:21 Zeno` I dunno if the noise has a leak
04:21 hmmmm it doesn't
04:21 Zeno` I made a beautiful graph
04:21 hmmmm did you run valgrind?
04:21 Zeno` massif, yeah
04:22 hmmmm the last time you ran massif, noise didn't even show up
04:22 Zeno` with minimal game and just the test he provided
04:22 hmmmm and what
04:22 Zeno` took me a bit to realise I had to type /regen to start the test
04:22 hmmmm lua is garbage collected; i can see the kind of problem he's talking about IF he has a low amount of ram, a disabled swapfile, and lua doesn't garbage collect often enough
04:22 Zeno` (which is why there is about 10 seconds at the start where no mem at all is really used)
04:23 Zeno` yeah
04:23 Zeno` as I said in my comment it seems to be normal Lua GC behaviour
04:23 hmmmm that guy won't give any details about his test machine
04:23 hmmmm in any case, the lua gc should kick in long before there are any crashes due to lack of memory
04:26 Zeno` I would think so
04:27 Zeno` Although there is a leak *somewhere*
04:27 Zeno` just not there
04:28 Zeno` probably still the liquids hehe
04:28 Zeno` his comment: If you type "/regen" fast enough, memory will keep going up as it does not free up the old memory fast enough.
04:29 Zeno` that cannot be right... my test is using the infinite loop so I'm sure the loop is faster than his typing
04:29 Zeno` and memory did not just keep going up
04:38 hmmmm regardless, the memory consumption is too high for such a mundane task
04:38 hmmmm I'm going to split up generating noise and then fetching the table of values
04:38 Zeno` yes
04:38 hmmmm that also might even make it faster
04:38 Zeno` I'm just trying with a larger threshold but splitting would be better
04:39 hmmmm i can do splitting in the core Noise object too, but the benefit is nowhere nearly as much
04:41 Zeno` I wonder if it's feasible to run massif on my server for "real" data
04:42 Zeno` probably way too slow :(
04:43 Zeno` valgrind hooks can be in the C++ though... maybe I could utilise that to make a fast version heh
04:46 Zeno` 866GB is kind of high
04:47 Zeno` err MB
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04:48 hmmmm :/
04:48 hmmmm gonna require some alcohol for this
04:57 Zeno` what kind? Pure ethanol?
04:58 hmmmm an ethanol/water/grain mash blend with hints of oak flavor
05:00 Zeno` bourbon, whiskey or brandy? lol
05:00 hmmmm wild turkey
05:01 hmmmm by the way, nerzhul pretty much admitted he's not coming back to minetest.  i think it's time to fix the HP damage flash
05:01 Zeno` ok
05:02 Zeno` he did?
05:02 hmmmm ye in a PR on github
05:02 Zeno` ok, I'll fix it after I finish my tests
05:02 Zeno` I didn't bother making a branch because it was 2 lines
05:04 hmmmm good riddance, right?  i think he could've been an awesome dev
05:14 Zeno` http://dpaste.com/0EY7MRN :/
05:25 hmmmm dammit lua, y u take up so much space
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05:39 hmmmm https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit​/6e2c214dd172ee1bf21f2172fb8c59b0628bb26f
05:41 hmmmm actually no that's stupid
05:42 hmmmm I'm going to add a force_place = true boolean per node definition for lua schematics
05:42 hmmmm why should I expose lua users to scary bitfields
05:42 Zeno` *nod*
05:43 hmmmm i'm glad i thought about this more before pushing it
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06:14 hmmmm alrighty, here is my final version https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit​/faf2a7ea91e5c35e922427a3ebd412fce5332b40
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06:50 hmmmm will push if nobody has anything to say...
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17:28 est31 <hmmmm> est wants to get rid of the setU32() setBool() etc. distinctions and have overloaded set()
17:28 est31 in fact no
17:28 hmmmm I thought that's what you said
17:28 est31 original plan was just to overload once
17:28 est31 so that you have the same method for the string name and the enum setting type
17:29 hmmmm ahh
17:29 est31 so setBool(mt_setting_draw_clouds, true) and setBool("draw_clouds", true)
17:29 est31 (imagine the mt_setting stuff in uppercase)
17:29 hmmmm yes
17:30 hmmmm by the way you know how I always harp on readability
17:30 hmmmm over brevity
17:30 hmmmm when you have something as commonly used as MT_SETTING_DRAW_CLOUDS or whatever it probably makes sense to have a shorter constant name
17:31 hmmmm I would have recommended CS_ (for CoreSetting) but that's being used by ClientState
17:31 est31 like?
17:31 est31 I'm ok with shorter prefixes
17:31 hmmmm what if MT_SETTING_ were switched with CFG_
17:31 hmmmm CFG_DRAW_CLOUDS ?
17:31 est31 sounds good
17:31 hmmmm yea
17:31 hmmmm because people have to type this all the time
17:32 est31 yes
17:32 hmmmm and precisely because people use it all the time, this is why it's not as necessary to have things more verbose and clear
17:32 hmmmm at least i would argue
17:32 hmmmm because it's so commonplace and better understood than the SRP implementat would be
17:33 est31 what does this have to do with srp?
17:35 hmmmm because I realize what I'm saying sounds contradictory to what I was saying about the naming of constructs in SRP
17:35 est31 ah
17:35 est31 yea
17:36 est31 gtg brb
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18:48 paramat hmmmm yeah a per-node force-place bool is much better
18:49 paramat you just need to update mg_schematic.h lines 54-56
18:49 paramat and add notes about the bool
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18:53 paramat so now soon i will add the full set of biomes to mgv5/v7
19:05 hmmmm what do you mean update 54-56?
19:05 hmmmm that's the file format, not the lua table format
19:06 hmmmm when you define a schematic through a lua table you write the nodes like
19:06 hmmmm {name="default:tree", prob=255, param2=0, force_place=true}
19:08 paramat aha so bit 7 is still used as the force-place flag in the schem format..
19:09 hmmmm why would you care about user friendliness of a binary file format
19:09 paramat exactly
19:11 hmmmm so also because yslice probabilities follow the same bitfield format there's a free bit for each vertical level of the schematic
19:11 paramat so we actually have 128 levels of prob, but written as 0-255 in the lua table
19:12 hmmmm yes
19:12 hmmmm so 254 and 255 are technically the same probability value, as is 0 and 1
19:12 paramat clever. is serialize_schematic updated yet, i guess not
19:12 hmmmm oh shoot
19:13 hmmmm well there's a bug
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19:52 TenPlus2 Hi folks, any devs around today ?
19:53 est31 yess
19:53 est31 :p
19:53 TenPlus2 lol, joy!!
19:54 est31 what does the error say
19:54 TenPlus2 any idea what would cause an std::bad_alloc error ?
19:54 est31 how does it happen?
19:54 TenPlus2 2015-04-30 12:12:35: ACTION[ServerThread]: player G1127 crafts default:stick 4
19:54 TenPlus2 terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::bad_alloc'
19:54 TenPlus2 what(): std::bad_alloc
19:54 TenPlus2 that's one of them
19:54 est31 so you know how to reproduce?
19:54 TenPlus2 it's random
19:55 est31 what version does the server run?
19:55 TenPlus2 not always stick being crafted, can be farming, opening chest etc
19:55 TenPlus2 server is using 0.4.12 stable for linux...
19:55 TenPlus2 I've also tried latest dev to see if it was inadvertanly fixed, bu nope
19:55 est31 ok
19:56 TenPlus2 *inadvertently
19:56 est31 then we obviously have to do something about it :)
19:56 est31 (as devs)
19:56 TenPlus2 I sit on a test platform far above spawn where nothing happens/spawns/no abms... and wait for the fire sound to disappear, that's when I know server has crashed
19:57 est31 so it also happens when no players are online?
19:57 TenPlus2 yeah, and the odd time I run standalone server it fails and comes up either std:bad_alloc or segfault
19:57 TenPlus2 just ooutta the blue
19:58 est31 what do you mean with that?
19:58 TenPlus2 I have a copy of the server standalone also so I can test mods before they go live... it happens standalone (singleplayer) also
19:58 TenPlus2 but mostly on server
19:59 est31 so it seems to be a mod problem?
19:59 TenPlus2 no error for ANY of the mods, I was told it was memory problem (running out) so stripped down server to see if that helped... nothing...  disabled each mod in turn... nope...
19:59 est31 I mean an error a mod caused, but the engine has a bug too and doesnt show the error as such
20:00 TenPlus2 most of the errors is simply: "terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::bad_alloc' what():  std::bad_alloc"
20:01 est31 There are two possible reasons
20:01 est31 1. not enough space
20:02 TenPlus2 HDD Space ?
20:02 est31 no ram space
20:02 TenPlus2 ah, server has 4gb...
20:02 TenPlus2 it never goes above 1gb... never!
20:02 est31 should be enough in theory
20:02 TenPlus2 and the Os (lubuntu 14.04) only uses 102mb
20:03 TenPlus2 what's the other reason ?
20:04 est31 not enough space in one piece
20:04 est31 but I guess thats just wrong
20:04 est31 I mean with virtual memory
20:04 est31 (read it on the internet)
20:04 est31 so in theory it may happen
20:04 TenPlus2 we dont use virtual memory... that's disabled and all in tmp space
20:04 est31 sorry meant virtual address space
20:05 TenPlus2 ahh
20:05 TenPlus2 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2661
20:06 est31 next idea
20:06 est31 open it in a debugger
20:06 est31 and let it print a stacktrace
20:06 TenPlus2 standalone or server ?  server isnt physically with me, it's in Wisconsin
20:07 est31 whereever you want to debug :)
20:07 est31 usually debuggers dont cause overhead
20:07 est31 if you only let them print stacktraces
20:07 TenPlus2 so add --debug to command line ?
20:07 est31 no
20:07 est31 thats setting it to debug logleve
20:07 est31 l
20:07 est31 might be worth the try too
20:07 TenPlus2 in minetest.conf...
20:08 TenPlus2 gotcha
20:08 est31 just expect to have much much more output
20:08 est31 really much mor
20:08 est31 e
20:08 TenPlus2 in that case I'll prolly run it on standalone server tomorrow, the server is on 120gb ssd...
20:09 est31 ok then
20:09 est31 do you daily truncate the log?
20:10 TenPlus2 no, server script copies previous log to another file and starts a new one on restart or crash... so I have a copy...
20:10 TenPlus2 I always get to see the last error though and a log of how many times it's restarted
20:11 est31 nice
20:11 TenPlus2 #!/bin/bash
20:11 TenPlus2 while true
20:11 TenPlus2 do
20:11 TenPlus2 echo "- = R E S T A R T I N G   S E R V E R = -"
20:11 TenPlus2 sleep 1
20:11 TenPlus2 date >> ~/lastrun.txt
20:11 TenPlus2 minetest --server |& tee ~/log.txt
20:11 TenPlus2 cp ~/log.txt ~/crashlog.txt -f
20:11 TenPlus2 done
20:11 est31 next time use a pastebin :)
20:11 TenPlus2 oops, my bad
20:11 TenPlus2 am too use to using yahoo chat :)
20:13 TenPlus2 normally I'd go back to using 0.4.11 but too many mods have been changed over to easily do that, and the players enjoy the new features and new mapgen
20:15 est31 try whether verbose logging will help
20:15 est31 verbose loglevel
20:15 est31 what generally will help is a stacktrace
20:15 est31 at least isolates the region
20:16 TenPlus2 will give that a go...  thanks for the help... and I'll definitely use pastebin for that output :)
20:16 TenPlus2 you guys really do work hard on Minetest and it really is an amazing game...  thanks for all of that...
20:16 est31 loglevels cant give you a stacktrace though
20:17 est31 I dont know a method to open gdb for example so that it does nothing more than print stacktraces
20:17 est31 and exit
20:17 est31 (because I guess that would be what you need)
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20:18 TenPlus2 will see what can be done tommorrow :) thanks again est... nite all
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22:55 hmmmm Hmm
22:56 hmmmm I think i have a good interm solution for high lua mapgen memory usage
22:57 est31 ?
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23:29 hmmmm garbagecollect()
23:31 hmmmm oh wait the guy reporting the bug already knows about this
23:32 hmmmm jeez he sure talks a lot

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