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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-05-02

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 ShadowNinja hmmmm: You O.K. with me merging security right now?  It was approved a while ago, but I got sidetracked by a small enhancement that didn't work out.
00:00 hmmmm wait didn't security break mods
00:01 ShadowNinja hmmmm: Yes, but they can all be fixed trivially.
00:01 hmmmm ehh..
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00:01 ShadowNinja You agreed to it IIRC.
00:01 hmmmm i don't think i would ever agree to mod breakage
00:01 ShadowNinja I'd have to look back a bit to find it though.
00:02 ShadowNinja hmmmm: Only one or two mods are really broken.
00:02 hmmmm you have no idea how much cruft there is in my lua apis that i keep there for reverse compat
00:02 ShadowNinja Well, actually none are broken.
00:02 ShadowNinja There are just one or two that need to be added to secure.trusted_mods.
00:03 hmmmm so what are these modifications exactly one would need to make
00:03 hmmmm in any case, you do realize this would be setting a precedent if it were to be merged, right?
00:03 hmmmm this is nothing to be taken lightly
00:04 ShadowNinja hmmmm: Mods that use os.execute("mkdir"..) need to swich to minetest.mkdir and mods like IRC that do thinks like load C libraries have to use request_insecure_environment().
00:05 hmmmm so os.execute is completely disabled with this?
00:05 hmmmm good
00:05 ShadowNinja req_ins_env allows specific mods to bypass security if they're listed in secure.trusted_mods.
00:05 hmmmm but are there some mods that call wget?
00:05 hmmmm iirc there was at least one
00:05 ShadowNinja So you *could* use ins_env.os.execute("mkdir "...), but that would be stupid.
00:06 ShadowNinja hmmmm: If there is it can use req_ins_env, or the http API that's planned.
00:06 hmmmm you know, I don't think I would normally agree to this but
00:07 hmmmm breakage is acceptable to fix these sorts of things
00:07 hmmmm secure.trusted_mods isn't a foolproof solution though
00:08 ShadowNinja There's always secure.enable_security=false, as a last resort.
00:08 hmmmm it's easy to have a mod that innocently updates itself, for example, and then one day after it's gained acceptance throughout the minetest community, it installs malware
00:09 hmmmm mod security is false security
00:09 hmmmm a false sense of security rather
00:09 hmmmm i don't want people to be lulled into thinking this is making them safer
00:10 hmmmm maybe there should be a set of audit rules you could do on code in order to make them gain trusted status
00:11 hmmmm quality standards or so to speak.  did you come up with anything along those lines already?
00:12 VanessaE BUT this breaks the ability to read from the mod's own directory, does it not?
00:13 hmmmm it doesn't
00:13 VanessaE ShadowNinja, what was  http://sprunge.us/dKXa  meant to solve then?
00:13 ShadowNinja VanessaE: Nope.  You can't open any new fds after init in the mod dir if you aren't trusted though.
00:13 VanessaE (I know what mod it's for of course, but I don't remember why it was needed)
00:13 VanessaE that answers it.
00:14 ShadowNinja Dangit, my client segfaults every time I hover over a link.  (probably a Qt5 bug)
00:15 VanessaE ShadowNinja: that was the paste you gave me a while back to essentially rewrite the player_textures mod
00:15 ShadowNinja VanessaE: It fixes two bugs.
00:15 ShadowNinja Well, one bug and one security incompatibility.
00:15 VanessaE also, see homedecor's wardrobe opject.  it has the ability to change skins also now
00:16 ShadowNinja There are two ways to fix the security incompatibility, but the easiest way involves making it trusted.
00:16 * VanessaE grumbles
00:16 ShadowNinja Hmmm, minetest.dir should really be added.
00:17 VanessaE there is NO legit reason to prevent reading files in the mod's directory after init.
00:17 ShadowNinja VanessaE: Yes, it's an implementation limitation.
00:17 ShadowNinja The only way to solve it is to completely isolate every mod.
00:18 ShadowNinja *sigh* if it weren't for player_textures this would be so much less breaking.  :-(
00:19 VanessaE ShadowNinja: https://github.com/VanessaE/homedecor_modp​ack/blob/master/homedecor/wardrobe.lua#L64
00:19 VanessaE and this.
00:19 ShadowNinja *SIGSEGV*
00:20 ShadowNinja VanessaE: Oh, that should still work fine.
00:21 VanessaE "should"
00:21 VanessaE ...
00:21 ShadowNinja The issue is the (flawed) io.open() existence check that player_textures uses.
00:21 Etzos ShadowNinja: Quassel?
00:22 ShadowNinja (flawed becuase the texture might exist but not be loaded if it was added after the server started, resulting in players with solid-color skins)
00:22 VanessaE ShadowNinja: wouldn't it make more sense to add a helper function that can just do a file-existence check then?
00:22 ShadowNinja Etzos: Yep.
00:23 Etzos ShadowNinja: Settings -> Configure Quassel... -> Chat View -> [Uncheck] Show previews of webpages on URL hover
00:23 VanessaE besides, no one really cares if the skin didn't load because it was added later.  this happens *all the time* on servers when mods are updated - it isn't limited to skin textures of course.
00:23 ShadowNinja VanessaE: No, because that approach is flawed to begin with ^.  The *right* (well, as close as possible without major engine changes) way to fix this is by scanning the directory for the list of player files.
00:23 VanessaE update mod -> some texture file chanegs -> next person who signs in gets the node shape with bad textures until the next server restart.
00:24 ShadowNinja Etzos: Thanks.
00:24 ShadowNinja I'll add something like LuaFileSystem.dir().
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02:35 kaeza_ 0 OK, 0:1
02:35 kaeza_ <_<
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14:59 paramat hmmmm i'm thinking of adding 'if (param2 > 3) return;' to the start of rotateAlongYAxis() for speed and to avoid any unwanted change of param2 in that case
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15:04 paramat or, i could work on adding support for 6d rotation to that
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15:11 Zeno` what's 6d?
15:12 Zeno` two pairs of those red and blue glasses reversed and overlaid? :D
15:24 paramat heh 6 direction
15:25 paramat yes i will work on 6d rotation support, not just for Sokomine, it's needed for horizontal branches in tree schematics
15:26 VanessaE speaking of rotation,
15:26 VanessaE what's the status of https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/451 ?
15:26 VanessaE (short version:  some way is needed to selectively stop the screwdriver from rotating nodes)
15:28 paramat nah, just don't rotate beds or doors, that'a obviously a silly thing to do :)
15:28 VanessaE what about other mods?
15:31 paramat i feel the complication of a fix is not worth it, if a player does something silly with a screwdriver they deserve the consequences heh
15:31 VanessaE what complication?  add a new group i.e. no_rotate=1, check if the node has it, abort if so.
15:32 VanessaE (maybe print a message "this node can't be rotated" or something also)
15:32 paramat small but unnecessary bloat
15:32 VanessaE VERY necessary
15:33 VanessaE you forget about servers I guess
15:33 paramat yes i do probably
15:33 paramat =)
15:34 VanessaE I'd just code and submit a PR myself but there's too big of a tendency to ignore such things. :-/
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15:34 paramat so what's the important need for this? since i can't think of one
15:35 VanessaE any object that's composed of two or more nodes or which takes up more than one node space
15:35 VanessaE and any object that should never be rotated to a non-upright position
15:36 VanessaE homedecor has dozens of such nodes
15:36 VanessaE including a king-size bed that takes four node spaces, and a plasma display that takes 6.
15:39 VanessaE (to that end, I could perhaps see a need for no_rotate=2, which would mean the screwdriver should only be able to rotate that node around the Y axis)
15:39 VanessaE yes the user can do silly stuff, but sometimes it's better to prevent totally useless stuff in the first place...
15:40 paramat knowing that the screwdriver acts on single nodes, i would expect punishment using it on any of these. adding code to protect every idiot against the result of every silly action is unnecessary bloat hehe
15:41 VanessaE the problem is nodes that are a single object that's bigger than 1^3 m
15:42 VanessaE in that if you rotate one of these, the whole thing moves, but maybe you end up pointing part of it into a wall.
15:42 VanessaE (worse of course is nodes like mt_game's doors since you can end up with half a door flipped upside down)
15:42 VanessaE mesh nodes being the "single object" in this case.
15:43 paramat the worst outcome is just having to rotate it back to normal, no big deal (and idiot learns)
15:43 VanessaE no
15:43 VanessaE the worst outcome is having some mod now be unable to remove the un-rotated parts because the rotated parts no longer correspond.
15:44 VanessaE i.e. a mod checks the facedir of one part to figure out where the other part is
15:45 VanessaE users fuck stuff up, server admins have to come around to un-fuck is my point.
15:45 paramat aha
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15:50 Zeno` what if there are 3 nodes?
15:50 Zeno` like my bed?
15:50 VanessaE exactly my point
15:51 Zeno` the way it should be done is there is a "parent" and each of the "children" rotate relative to the parent (and if that can't happen the rotation doesn't happen at all)
15:51 VanessaE rotate the "root" node, try to remove it, it'll end up removing part of a wall or something, because there's no way for the mod supplying the bed to know that the other node it deleted isn't part of the bed.
15:51 Zeno` talking about "6d" is like looking into a mirror with a mirror
15:51 VanessaE Zeno`: impossible to do, unfortunately.  easier to just prevent rotation.
15:52 Zeno` it's not impossible. Just difficult with the current framework
15:52 Zeno` I mean where will it end? 9d, 12d, 15d?
15:52 Zeno` it's just broken
15:52 VanessaE heh
15:53 Zeno` there is no such thing as 6d :/
15:53 VanessaE well string theorists would argue with that ;)
15:53 Zeno` lol
15:53 Zeno` fine :P
15:56 paramat support for 6d rotation will be no slower, as i'll do 'if (param2 <= 3) [do existing code] else [do more complex 6d code]' and nodes with param2 >3 are usually rare in a schematics
15:57 paramat btw hmmmm your membership of the minetest team is not public, it bothers my perfectionism when i go to the github page heh
15:58 Zeno` Seriously... WTF IS 6D?
15:58 Zeno` I makes no sense to add something that doesn't exist (yeah, yeah, string theorists)
16:01 VanessaE Zeno`: the ability to rotate a node's main axis to face any of the 6 directions of a node, and to rotate around the axis it points at.
16:02 VanessaE 6 directions, 4 positions around the axis when facing that direction.
16:04 VanessaE bbl
16:04 Zeno` rubiks cube
16:08 paramat so orientation used to be 0-3 only (y axis rotation) now it's 0-23
16:13 paramat hmmmmm to clarify the cloud radius issue, it's fine by me it not being another .conf setting, but somehow adjustable would be nice
16:19 paramat intersting that clouds are clipped at 2kn distance, i'm wondering if it's a hardcoded irrlicht view limit
16:21 kilbith https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/7883281​/7440877/f6dbf8b2-f0cd-11e4-8d9b-a3b1de0c4e7b.png
16:21 kilbith ^ like that
16:24 paramat yeah
16:24 paramat i seem to remember landscape will clip at 2 kn also, but not sure..
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16:37 paramat anyway 2kn is certainly enough
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19:35 celeron55 this isn't even real, the server is down again
19:35 celeron55 don't get an OpenBSD VPS from edis.at; this absolutely sucks
19:37 sfan5 celeron55: in case you're looking for an alternative, ramnode looks pretty good http://www.ramnode.com/vps.php
19:38 celeron55 i used it once, but stopped because it's a US-based company
19:48 sfan5 i haven't found a good non US-based vps company yet
19:50 Calinou I'm at PulseHeberg, it's French but they have an English panel
19:50 Calinou using it for my site and servers
19:50 Calinou the Minetest server had 17 players once, no lag
19:51 sfan5 is the vps in france?
19:52 Calinou yes
19:52 Calinou might not be too good now
19:52 sfan5 aw
19:56 sofar my openvz server starts at 15$ a year and has colo's in the us and nl, maybe that's something to consider?
19:57 sofar even has ipv6 support...
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20:11 sfan5 sofar: link?
20:11 sofar https://www.ramnode.com/vps.php
20:12 sfan5 oh
20:12 sfan5 i thought you meant a non US-based company
20:13 sofar I didn't ...
20:13 sofar ah lol, you mentioned ramnode already, I totally read over that
20:13 * sofar back to hacking crops
20:22 sfan5 this looks pretty ok: https://iniz.com/kvmvps.html
20:22 sfan5 based in UK
20:23 Calinou limited bandwidth…
20:23 sofar not allowed Minecraft
20:23 Calinou the price is a jok
20:23 Calinou +e
20:23 Calinou in comparison to PulseHeberg which delivers very low prices
20:24 Calinou “whats not allowed” and they can't even bother to spell properly
20:24 sfan5 limited bandwidth?
20:25 Calinou “Bandwidth: 500 GB”
20:25 Calinou it's a lot but still limited
20:25 Calinou 2 50GB 512MB 1TB €10.81 /mo
20:25 sfan5 yes the prices are high
20:25 Calinou for a lower price on PulseHeberg you get 4 cores 200 GB storage, 4 GB RAM, unlimited(-ish) bandwidth
20:26 sfan5 but there is not service that can offer truly unlimited bandwidth
20:26 sfan5 no*
20:26 Calinou the panel claims to limit me to 5 TB/month
20:26 Calinou in practice the bar doesn't fill up at all
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22:17 ShadowNinja I've had a good experience with Linode.  I think they're USA-based though.  Is there a big issue with that?
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23:20 hmmmm paramat:  don't bother trying to add 6d rotation, it's much more complex than you probably think.  your change sounds good though.
23:21 hmmmm or rather I'm not completely sure to be honest... I honestly forget whether rotateAlongYAxis() is meant to handle 6d figures
23:22 hmmmm it only modifies the bottom 2 bits, perhaps I assume that those bottom 2 bits are the same for Y axis rotation for all of the 24 facedirs
23:26 hmmmm just make sure that it actually works for both FACEDIR and WALLMOUNTED
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23:55 sofar was 0.4.12 a bugfix on a 0.4.11 branch?
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