Time Nick Message 00:07 paramat now pushing game#310 00:07 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/310 -- Allow overriding papyrus and cactus grow functions by HybridDog 00:14 paramat done 00:24 paramat anime time! 00:49 hmmmm ShadowNinja: I don't like how dstream was changed. I want my old dstream back 01:01 ShadowNinja hmmmm: That would involve a big `find src -type f | xargs -IX sed -i 's/dstream/nonestream/g' X` though. 01:03 ShadowNinja That's about 160 lines of changes. 01:03 hmmmm you mean in your patch? 01:03 ShadowNinja Yes. 01:03 hmmmm well why'd you change it all to begin with 01:04 ShadowNinja hmmmm: Look at the old debug.cpp. It's quite ugly and it uses the C-style FILE* API. 01:05 hmmmm C-style isn't necessarily ugly 01:05 ShadowNinja dstream was the C++-style public interface for the stderr/file combo. 01:05 ShadowNinja hmmmm: Yes, but this was. 01:05 hmmmm maybe i'm misunderstanding, lemme look at the patch... 01:07 ShadowNinja dstream used to be completely seperate from errorstream, infostream, actionstream, etc. dstream was a much lower-level API. Instead of adding a StreamLogOutput(std::cerr) and a FileLogOutput("debug,txt") you added a StreamLogOutput for either dstream or dstream_no_stderr. 01:08 hmmmm different question 01:08 ShadowNinja (Although there were two seperate classes for dstream and dstream_no_stderr that were near;y identical, I combined those.) 01:08 hmmmm print() in lua is now the system lua print? 01:08 hmmmm i.e. it's not being overridden anymore 01:09 ShadowNinja hmmmm: Yes, so it goes to stdout like one would expect. 01:09 hmmmm okay 01:11 hmmmm oh eww 01:11 hmmmm why do you need to have a using namespace directive inside of the code block 01:12 ShadowNinja I don't need to, but it reduces a lot of nomespace specialization and I don't want to do it globally. 01:12 ShadowNinja I'd love to have C++11's using x = y; statement and enum classes though. 03:05 hmmmm god dammit shadowninja 03:05 hmmmm for as much as you bitch about code style, your code is not compliant with the style 03:06 hmmmm and then there's the unnecessary operator overloading 03:23 hmmmm alright upon closer inspection i don't approve of this commit anymore 03:24 hmmmm this adds just as many style issues as it cleans up in terms of style 03:25 hmmmm it adds unnecessary added abstractions that don't have any solid benefit 03:25 hmmmm I'm getting really weary about these "cleanup" commits 03:25 hmmmm they usually don't fix any actual problems aside from preference 03:29 hmmmm for example: what is the point of LogOutputEntry? all that does is wrap around ILogOutput and move bool silenced to that instead 03:29 hmmmm how does it make it cleaner to add a new wrapper class 03:29 hmmmm this is so bloaty 05:25 hmmmm https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit/cd1d625ab21e741e91be7d2190bb4fd59fab3200 05:28 est31 looks good 05:28 hmmmm k coo 05:44 sfan5 hmmmm: are you fine with merging #2641 now or do we wait for some reason? 05:44 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2641 -- Revert the upper-case PROJECT_NAME nonsense that was part of #2402 by sfan5 05:44 hmmmm yeah, sure. 05:44 hmmmm I agree with it too, even if I don't care too much about it 05:44 hmmmm it seems silly to optimize for the uncommon case. 05:45 hmmmm the common case is lower 05:46 * est31 still waits for reviews for #2620 05:46 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2620 -- SRP based login by est31 05:46 hmmmm sorry man 05:46 hmmmm it's really big and we're busy 05:46 hmmmm i'll have to schedule a time to review it 05:46 est31 good 05:46 sfan5 I'll merge 2641 now the 05:46 hmmmm yeah 05:46 sfan5 n 05:46 hmmmm for larger commits I think we should explicitly allocate time for reviewing 05:47 hmmmm because otherwise nobody's gonna do it 05:47 sfan5 error: patch failed: misc/winresource.rc:37 (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ 05:47 sfan5 guess it's gonna wait until after school... 05:47 * sfan5 afk 05:47 hmmmm hah okay 05:47 hmmmm well that flopped 05:47 hmmmm i thought it passed win32 on travis... 05:49 hmmmm est31, what time zone are you? 05:53 est31 tough question 05:53 est31 there are physical time zones and actually lived time zones 05:53 est31 my physical is CEST 05:54 hmmmm well my actual goal is to find what times I am most likely to catch you around 05:57 est31 for today, I think I'll be online in 12 hours again. 05:58 hmmmm hmm ok 05:59 hmmmm any times after 8:00 PM EST tomorrow?? 06:03 est31 ok 06:03 hmmmm mostly in case if i have to ask you questions 06:04 * Zeno` glances about 06:04 Zeno` prng exception?! 06:04 hmmmm i need it for unit tests 06:05 Zeno` yuck :( 06:05 Zeno` oh well 06:05 hmmmm hey got any better ideas 06:05 hmmmm apart from 'let's crash it weeeeee' 06:07 Zeno` Not really. But I loath exceptions with continuation semantics. But nvm 06:07 est31 or no sorry 06:07 est31 day after tomorrow would be ok 06:07 hmmmm continuation semantics? 06:08 Zeno` I'd rather the program just stopped 06:08 hmmmm well see 06:08 hmmmm this effectively does that 06:08 hmmmm nobody else aside from unit tests catch PrngException 06:09 Zeno` yet :) 06:09 Zeno` anyway, it's too silly to argue about. I just don't like it. Others do. That's how it is :D 06:10 hmmmm the only solid excuse i can think of to catch it is in LuaPseudoRandom so you can convert it into a LuaError 06:11 Zeno` hmm 06:12 Zeno` Why is RANDOM_RANGE so small? Limitation of the algorithm? 06:13 hmmmm because it sucks 06:13 Zeno` heh 06:13 hmmmm lol i don't know 06:14 hmmmm there's a better variant of this same exact LCG in glibc 06:14 hmmmm it populates all 32 bits 06:18 Zeno` hmm 06:22 Zeno` So... the range -20, -10 is not valid? 06:22 hmmmm for PseudoRandom::range()? yes of course 06:24 Zeno` for inline int range(int min, int max) 06:25 hmmmm not sure what you're asking 06:25 Zeno` -20 - -10 is 4294967286 isn't it? 06:25 Zeno` (when cast to u320 06:25 Zeno` ) 06:26 hmmmm i'm pretty sure PseudoRandom uses int everywhere 06:26 hmmmm oh that cast 06:26 Zeno` https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/cd1d625ab21e741e91be7d2190bb4fd59fab3200#diff-0adfb87b0afcca4db97b6e67f11ecc91R67 06:26 Zeno` I dunno... I'm probably wrong 06:28 hmmmm min = -20, max = -10. -10 - -20 = 10 06:29 hmmmm max - min is always guaranteed to be a non-negative number if min < max 06:29 hmmmm that's just how math works 06:30 Zeno` lol 06:31 Zeno` I was doing -20 - -10 :/ 06:31 Zeno` I really need to sleep more often 06:31 hmmmm i feel like there is something horribly wrong with randNormalDist() 06:31 hmmmm don't think i ever looked at output until now: http://fpaste.org/215691/11594214/ 06:31 * hmmmm shudders 06:32 hmmmm that my friend does not look like a bell curve to me 06:32 Zeno` well a range of 32768/10 seems awfully small to me (the only reason I was really looking at that line in the first place) 06:33 hmmmm it's because the algo sucks. if you use PcgRandom this won't happen 06:33 Zeno` oh that's the old crappy one? 06:33 * Zeno` looks at the whole file 06:34 Zeno` pfft... PseudoRandom 06:34 Zeno` pity it cannot be blown up 06:34 Zeno` without breaking stuff heh 06:35 hmmmm yeah :( 06:36 hmmmm man I really have no idea what I'm doing wrong 06:36 hmmmm unless I totally 100% misunderstand statistics 06:36 hmmmm an improbable amount of values are bunching up in the center 06:43 hmmmm i think i know what's going on, it's working normally but the peak is so sharp because i essentially squish the standard deviation so the probability is effectively 0 by the time it gets to either end 06:46 hmmmm how on earth do i even address this 07:44 hmmmm acually nope, just stretched it and the problem persists 07:45 hmmmm http://i.imgur.com/seiPaNr.png 07:59 hmmmm ahh this is interesting 07:59 hmmmm it only happens if part of the range is negative 07:59 hmmmm sounds like i have a bug rather than a flawed algorithm 07:59 hmmmm :D i love unit testing. i would've never found this otherwise 08:03 hmmmm :( it was the float-to-int truncation in the negative case. 08:08 hmmmm https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/415167b228dea8b4108d7fe164c7fec8c061dcf5 13:25 Zeno` Anyone want to donate to me $600 to keep my server running? :p 13:39 exio4 I may be able to donate 0.60USD Zeno` 13:39 exio4 would it be enough? 13:59 sfan5 Zeno`: what type of server costs $600? 14:05 Zeno` VPS 14:09 sfan5 Zeno`: i hope you don't mean $600/month 14:10 Zeno` no, no, year 14:11 sfan5 $50/month is still much.. 14:19 sfan5 merging 2641 in 5 minutes, hmmmm agreed to it this morning 16:04 kilbith ShadowNinja, can you inflict a penalty to the old versions of MT on the serverlist, please ? 16:05 kilbith they're not likely to be maintained anymore and gives a bad impression of MT 16:05 Calinou we shouldn't support old versions in master at all, like Red Eclipse does 16:05 Calinou let them be played outside of master server but don't show old servers on list at all 16:06 Calinou we don't support old versions of software, this is a game 16:13 est31 pushing #2632 16:13 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2632 -- Add russian translation to minetest.desktop by mich1 16:15 est31 pushed 17:39 Sokomine the server list does need some work. it's too long to be convenient for most people. and it's difficult to locate a particular server in the list even though you know how it's called 17:40 Calinou fix: remove old servers, prevent them from registering 17:40 Calinou that'll prune 50 % of the servers at least, whose admins can't be bothered to use git pull 17:44 rubenwardy old meaning before stable, of course 17:45 Calinou yeah, < 0.4.12 17:45 kilbith and if the versionning is broken like now ? 17:46 kilbith i still have 0.4.11 after compiling 17:46 Krock it's not broken, use use dev 17:46 sfan5 in other words, you want to throw 14 server off the list? 17:46 sfan5 Krock: it is 17:46 sfan5 the 0.4.12 isn't on the master branch 17:46 Krock ummm.. okay, if you say so, it must be that way. 17:46 sfan5 which is why git detects 0.4.11 17:46 est31 Calinou, what about forks? 17:46 Calinou the Minetest master server is for Minetest, not other games. 17:46 Calinou — eihrul (edited) 17:47 sfan5 (stefan@stefan-pc) /tmp/mtof % git describe --tags --always --dirty 17:47 sfan5 0.4.11-501-g4ea5a96 17:47 Calinou yeah, Git versioning is broken 17:47 Calinou so we might have to keep supporting 0.4.11 17:47 Krock The master server doesn't need a change but the mainmenu does. A search box or a filter would help a lot 17:47 est31 there is the favourite list 17:48 est31 but yes there needs to be improvement 17:48 rubenwardy See freeminer's server menu 17:49 Krock Not connection should be added to the favourite list, let's do it manually like bookmarks in the browser. 17:49 Krock Sometimes I have trouble finding a server again because there are just 10 new on top 17:50 est31 yes thats good 17:50 est31 when encryption gets added, servers can get unique id numbers 17:52 sfan5 yay making a _game_ server as complicated to maintain as a banking app 17:53 est31 there are things in between 17:53 est31 banking apps are corporate world 17:54 est31 I don't see any reasonable argument here sfan5. You don't even know what I propose 17:54 est31 is ssh as difficult to maintain like a banking app 17:54 est31 ? 17:55 sfan5 anytzhing with uniquite id sounds complicated 17:55 sfan5 wtf 17:55 sfan5 anything* unique* 17:55 sfan5 it's going to be pub 17:55 sfan5 it's going to be public key crypto, right? 17:55 est31 yes 17:55 est31 or like with onion addresses a part of the hash 17:56 est31 nobody likes a 60 character base64 string as id 17:56 sfan5 ssh is more complicated to maintain than ssh 17:56 sfan5 uh 17:56 sfan5 telnet 17:56 est31 for me it isnt 17:56 est31 I have to remember pesky passwords for telnet 17:57 est31 (ok admit its unrelated) 17:59 est31 the issue is, if we ever want to do some reliable storing for the master list, we need unique ids 18:00 est31 so for example verify a server's age 18:02 sfan5 this is exactly what i mean 18:02 sfan5 this is _game_ 18:02 sfan5 we don't need verification of the servers "age", number of players or any of those other things 18:03 Sokomine kilbith: same here. my version doesn't grow over 0.4.11 for some unknown reason 18:03 kilbith it happened during the last releasing 18:04 est31 sfan5, perhaps one day we can show statistics for the servers together with how many users connected etc? 18:04 Sokomine i don't think throwing servers off the list is a solution. what we need is more structure so that players can find servers that fit to their needs 18:04 sfan5 est31: we can do that already, there jist isn't any code that does that 18:04 Sokomine builders have diffrent requirements than tablet players who just want to peek in 18:05 est31 sfan5, so how identify a server? by its address? 18:05 est31 address can change 18:05 est31 by the name? 18:05 est31 "there is no name" 18:05 Sokomine just counting locally how often a player connected to a server and showing that in the favorite tab might help a bit 18:05 sfan5 i would identify the server by hostname and port 18:05 est31 that can change 18:05 Sokomine at least for long-time players. new ones still have a problem 18:06 sfan5 but it's less likely to change than any other thing 18:06 est31 in the current list yes 18:08 est31 the thing about encryption is that most people will ignore it anyway. so it should be made as easy to ignore as possible. but when somebody likes that feature why take it away? 18:08 est31 I mean why do we need passwords the first place? 18:09 est31 "its just a game", don't we trust the players? 18:10 Sokomine it's all not so much about security. the troublie is that there are more servers than can be memorized. and throwing a long list at people where the list is sorted...some way...just doesn't really help. it's still far better than the old way where there was no list at all 18:11 Sokomine hmm. server imposters are slightly less likely than player imposters. takes more to run a server 18:11 est31 yea perhaps we can add some interactivity on the client side 18:11 Sokomine maybe make a confirmed id optional? for the larger, well maintained servers? 18:11 Sokomine most of this ought to happen client-side, yes 18:11 Sokomine maybe a sort-by-name option 18:12 est31 uh no 18:12 est31 either real search or leaving it this way 18:12 Sokomine yes, trouble is that that'd again favor some servers. but right now, finding one again is not easy 18:12 est31 because you know its MinetestForFun, but is it [EN] MinetestForFun, or [Fr/En] etc etc 18:13 est31 why would that favour severs? 18:13 est31 I mean if servers want to game they just themselves AAAAAAAA 18:13 est31 or some better variation thereof 18:14 Sokomine there's client/serverlist/favoriteservers.txt right now. that's sufficient as a base. it's the presentation that needs change. well, and maybe some more information from the server 18:14 Sokomine servers playing mt against each other? :-) 18:15 est31 no game the system 18:15 Sokomine tss 18:15 est31 I mean its really no effort 18:15 est31 the cryptographic id 18:15 est31 you just have one file more in the world's dir 18:16 est31 is it that painful? 18:16 Sokomine anyway. information that's needed is suitability for builders, acceptance of pvp (damage is not an indicator) and suitability for mobile clients i'd say. that would be helpful extra information 18:16 est31 suitability for mobile clients? 18:16 est31 how would you make that 18:16 est31 ? 18:16 Sokomine just make it optional, est31. a server that provides encrypted information is probably one where the server owner is less clueless than others 18:17 est31 why do people think encryption is a hassle? 18:17 kilbith also force the line-breaking please : https://lut.im/owEpEgm6/l8J65AE0 so that the row is not shifted 18:17 est31 see ^ thats a https url 18:17 Sokomine there are a lot of server that don't work well with the android client. they have many mods installed with many complex textures. that's not very phone-friendly 18:18 est31 yea perhaps that would be nice, but the issue with that flag is, how set it? 18:18 est31 also, perhaps thats rather a workaround than a proper fix 18:18 Sokomine est31: some server operators ARE clueless and don't know much. those servers ought to show up on the list as well. it's not bad if it's shown that that server operator did not put too much effort in yet 18:19 Sokomine i don't think there's a way to "fix" that. at least not that smartphones and tablets are not entirely equal to high-end-machines. well, except maybe wait a copule of years 18:20 est31 so you want to make encryption difficult so that only experienced people enable it? 18:20 Sokomine the server could indicate those values, and we could provide an faq explaining which setting would be suitable in which cases 18:21 Sokomine est31: no. but if there are complaints that it's too complicated, optional encryption is perfectly fine 18:22 Sokomine but all that is of little help regarding the inconvenient current server list 18:23 est31 it is related 18:23 est31 I mean encryption itself is very lean for users 18:23 Sokomine yes. hard to sort somethiing where there are no usful ids 18:23 est31 its basically just a function which accepts a key, a value and outputs something encrypted 18:23 est31 other way round for decryption 18:24 est31 and about the keys, we have to bind them somehow onto something else 18:24 est31 the way the www does it is with certificates 18:24 est31 I agree that is horrible 18:25 est31 really, even for that usecase 18:25 est31 now we have ssh 18:25 est31 there we connect to a certain server, and when we are connecting first time, we are asked whether to store the key, and then never bothered again 18:27 est31 what I propose is even simpler than that (no question) 18:27 est31 ssh is very easy on the server side 18:27 est31 basically you only have to generate keys 18:27 est31 but that can be done automatically too 18:28 est31 but this discussion is quite unproductive 18:29 est31 (about encryption) 18:30 Sokomine hm, yes. encryption certainly won't hurt 18:30 est31 so, Sokomine you have my support when you want to code a patch that filters the server's name inside the list. 18:30 Sokomine just make it optional 18:30 Sokomine yes. i'm just not entirely sure how it could be presented in a better way 18:31 Sokomine as this is a very visual game, screenshots of servers might be helpful. like what some operation systems or browsers do nowadays...make a tiny screenshot of what you saw last when you visited a world 18:31 Sokomine might help identifying a server 18:33 Sokomine and servers on the public list could provide a tiny screenshot... 18:33 Calinou sounds like a potential security issue 18:33 Calinou people could put scary pics or worse 18:33 est31 thats no security issue 18:34 rubenwardy screenshots would be good 18:34 kilbith they still can put scary title/description as well... 18:34 rubenwardy They could do that in the game with content, as well 18:34 kilbith no reason to scare about the screenshots specifically then 18:35 Sokomine mmdb already stores pictures for mods. maybe a similar mechanism could be used? a server sends in a picture, and if one forum dev approves of it, the picture can get used 18:35 Calinou no, approving is too cumbersome 18:35 Sokomine that'd be a delay of maybe a few days, but that doesn't matter. and there are not *that* many servers 18:35 est31 Sokomine, minetest is a game no banking app 18:35 est31 sfan5 is right in that point 18:36 est31 this just makes making a server even harder 18:37 Sokomine i'm pretty sure that tiny screenshots of the server and some more general information might help players. some are pretty young 18:37 Sokomine right now, the interface is ok for a banking app as far as usability goes - but not for a game. that's the trouble 18:38 est31 the client tab is already very cramped 18:38 Sokomine it *is* hard to make a good server. servers which did not yet put that much effort in ought to be listed as well of course 18:38 Sokomine it is 18:38 Sokomine we need to improve that somehow 18:39 * est31 should perhaps better go offline now (I'm tired) 18:39 est31 bye 19:22 paramat hmmmm and all, here's my first attempt at a mod that converts a lua table defined schematic into a .mts file and saves it in a schems folder in the mod https://gist.github.com/paramat/78dfd2e44b7839b1f7da it works, thanks for this 20:14 Sokomine i've also written a converter for worldedit .we to .mts, which is part of mg_villages. i've ignored the lua table definition of schematics completely so far. .mts is a good storage format 20:35 sofar Sokomine: MT we or MC we? 20:49 Sokomine sofar: MT we. do you happen to have a documentation for mc we? 20:56 sofar Sokomine: no, looked into converting my kids' world from MC to MT, which ended up okay.....ish 20:56 sofar but I converted the whole world in the end, not just parts