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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-03-20

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Time Nick Message
01:05 Warr1024 joined #minetest-dev
01:07 Warr1024 hey, I could use some input on what the default settings for #2462 should be.
01:07 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2462 -- Configurable automatic texture scaling and filtering at load time. by Warr1024
01:08 Warr1024 In my original PR, I set them to very conservative, off-by-default values.
01:08 Warr1024 but the settings themselves are pretty well-hidden, so users might not know that they're even available, since they won't have a UI footprint...
01:08 Warr1024 I was thinking it might be better to set them to some default enabled but still conservative values.
01:09 Warr1024 I was thinking, for instance, that a good default for texture min size would be 64 (runs fine on my old POS machine) but only if some form of interpolation was enabled
01:09 Warr1024 which makes the settings themselves a bit more complex...
01:10 Warr1024 i.e. set texture_min_size to 64, but it'd only actually apply the filter if bilinear_filter || trilinear_filter || anisotropic_filter || texture_min_size_force is enabled
01:10 Warr1024 since increasing the texture size has SOME potential runtime impact, but not much more than enabling filtering might.
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01:29 Warr1024 eh, screw it, then, I'll just set texture_min_size to 16
01:30 Warr1024 that pretty much matches the standard
01:30 Warr1024 if people want to raise it, I guess they'll just have to read the docs, or some intrepid soul will have to decide it worthwhile to add a GUI setting for this...
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03:18 Warr1024 hey, Zeno`
03:27 Zeno` hi
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04:21 Warr1024 ok, I semi-sort-of-fixed that "upside down image" problem with GUI scaling.
04:21 Warr1024 it seems like the first time I did my texture->image capture, it worked OK.
04:21 Warr1024 then the next time I did that conversion, it came out upside-down
04:22 Warr1024 and alternated that way
04:22 Warr1024 so caching the image seems to have alleviated the issue...
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05:59 ShadowNinja ~tell nrzkt The Minetest Android app is apparently banned -- again.  Also, I think that an official version should be published from a "Minetest" account rather than a particular developer's account -- or at least from c55's account.
05:59 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: O.K.
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06:18 Zeno` It is banned?
06:19 Zeno` Why? hehe
06:25 sfan5 ShadowNinja: afaik c55 didn't want to pusblish it from his account
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07:52 paramat celeron55, amusing thread https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=7&t=11261
07:53 VanessaE I thought we already shot that guy down, in flames yet :P
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08:07 nrzkt ShadowNinja: The app was ganned another time because of some keyworks in the app description...
08:07 VanessaE what keywords?
08:08 nrzkt i don't know. Play Store linked this article: https://support.google.com/googlepl​ay/android-developer/answer/2985717
08:09 VanessaE got a paste of the previous description?
08:09 nrzkt i will look at repetitive words and try to change them
08:09 nrzkt i don't know which lang cause the problem :s
08:09 nrzkt http://pastie.org/10041302
08:10 nrzkt short desc and complete desc have the same description, i remove "Minetest is an infinite-world block sandbox game and a game engine, inspired by InfiniMiner, Minecraft and the like." and shorten it to "Minetest is an infinite-world block sandbox game, inspired by Infiniminer and MC" (80 chars)
08:12 VanessaE Well I might rewrite the first two lines in your paste as "This is the official Minetest build from the original source code.  Open source license (LGPL 2.1+), no-cost to download and play."
08:12 VanessaE (gets rid of the trademarked name "Google Play Store" and two uses of the word "free')
08:13 VanessaE is 80 characters some kind of actual limit?  (I wouldn't expect so, this text won't ever be displayed on a user's machine in such a manner as to need that)
08:14 kahrl why doesn't google write our description for us if they feel they know better
08:14 VanessaE also, get rid of line 13
08:14 VanessaE it's redundant
08:14 nrzkt "Runs natively on Windows, Linux, OS X, FreeBSD and Android" ?
08:14 VanessaE players on Android aren't gonna care that it also runs on those other platforms - they went to the play store lookign for android builds, not OSX
08:16 nrzkt maybe :p but this is not our redundant information
08:16 VanessaE I know
08:16 VanessaE but for the sake of keeping the description short
08:16 VanessaE whatever BS it was that caused google to flag it as spammy, etc.
08:16 nrzkt short desc is here for that, the complete desc can have 4000 chars, we get 700
08:16 VanessaE kahrl: I know, right
08:16 nrzkt we have 700
08:17 nrzkt kahrl i think it's a bot which look at keywords and if they are more than X occurs :(
08:17 kahrl nrzkt: odd that is was done almost a week after the app was added, then
08:18 kahrl that it*
08:18 VanessaE I wonder if some competitor (read: clone maintainer) flagged it?
08:18 nrzkt i agree with your desc for official build but i modify it to "This is our official build from the original source code.  Open source license (LGPL 2.1+), no-cost to download and play, no ads.
08:18 kahrl VanessaE: could be
08:18 VanessaE nrzkt: good.
08:18 VanessaE except s/no-cost/no cost/
08:18 nrzkt i don't see flags for other apps on playstore, but if all IRC listeners do it, maybe we can banish other apps :p
08:19 nrzkt okay, i send an update now
08:19 VanessaE but wait first..
08:19 nrzkt stats for wednesday: 100 users
08:20 nrzkt 14% are not using the last version, and 2% uses the broken version :o
08:20 VanessaE Line 10 should read, "Easy plugin-based modding API for adding new blocks, tools, and other features to the game."
08:20 nrzkt wait for ?
08:20 VanessaE line 11, "consequences" does not fit.  some other word is needed there
08:21 nrzkt no problem, i take this description from minetest.net :p
08:21 nrzkt erf the backtraces for android are not easy to read
08:21 nrzkt i have a report on play store for a use after free as it seems
08:22 VanessaE maybe THAT is why it was flagged?  looks too much like a copypaste ?
08:22 nrzkt or a delete after free
08:22 paramat i'm not keen on the use of 'infinite', but 'almost infinite' is even worse =)
08:22 nrzkt i don't know, the google rules are not clear and they are not pointing the real problem. Maybe the problem is not english version but german or french
08:23 nrzkt ~tell Zeno` if you get a little bit time, with stable-0.4 on Android we get this backtrace (google provide us from a user): http://pastie.org/10041320
08:23 ShadowBot nrzkt: O.K.
08:24 nrzkt what do you suggest to replace consequences ?
08:25 VanessaE I'm not sure
08:26 VanessaE "Voxel based lighting with direct effect on gameplay (lighting caves et al. with torches)."  maybe?
08:26 VanessaE effects*
08:26 VanessaE or something like that.
08:27 VanessaE paramat is right, too
08:27 VanessaE "infinite" needs replaced with something more accurate
08:27 nrzkt i remove this light i think there are not interest
08:28 nrzkt line*
08:28 VanessaE 62km ^ 3 is big, but hardly infinite.
08:28 nrzkt the screenshots talk themselves, no need to have this technical information i think
08:28 VanessaE agreed
08:32 nrzkt instead of "Almost infinite world and several beautiful map generators." i think we should include it here: "Explore, dig and build in a beautiful generated voxel world, and craft stuff from raw materials to help you along the way.
08:32 nrzkt "
08:33 paramat yeah the 'voxel based lighting' line should go
08:33 VanessaE "procedurally-generated".  and drop the word "voxel",
08:33 VanessaE players don't know what a voxel is, but they can figure out that "procedurally" sounds like "procedure"
08:33 kilbith "beautiful"... questionable
08:33 nrzkt yes, it's a pure marketing keyword :p
08:34 VanessaE in place of infinite, "extensive" might fit
08:34 VanessaE (well you're not using that word anymore, so nevermind)
08:35 VanessaE Line 5 could read:  "Minetest is a block sandbox game with an expansive world size, inspired by Infiniminer and others."
08:35 nrzkt i removed it
08:35 nrzkt the short desc already said that
08:36 VanessaE what's the full thing look like now?
08:36 nrzkt and if i correctly read the rules we mustn't reference other games :s
08:36 nrzkt http://pastie.org/10041339
08:36 VanessaE delete line 1, redundant
08:37 nrzkt why not
08:37 VanessaE or replace it with something like "This is Minetest" (THIS IS SPARTAAAAAAA.......ahem)
08:37 VanessaE because you already say on line 3 that this is the official build
08:37 nrzkt xD
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08:38 VanessaE (I really wish the spam thingy would have said explicitly what was wrong)
08:38 nrzkt i agree too
08:39 nrzkt then we will see in ~6hours when app will be re-published
08:39 kilbith line 2 : "Official build from the original source code, licensed under LPGL 2.1.  Without ads."
08:39 kilbith we already know that's free
08:41 VanessaE something indicating that this build is kept up-to-date with current minetest sources would be good, or say list some features it supports that the clones don't (e.g. mesh node models or something)
08:41 nrzkt it doesn't follow master but stable-0.4
08:41 kilbith Line 9 : "Customize your game" instead of "mod your game"
08:41 VanessaE kilbith: good idea
08:42 nrzkt yeah :p that's what i said in french xD
08:42 VanessaE nrzkt: true but I meant that as much as anything else - it's not stuck at 0.4.10 is my point :P
08:42 nrzkt yeah :)
08:42 nrzkt we will backport features from master to stable-0.4 to fix android
08:42 paramat The ease of modding is a big strength, that attracted me here
08:43 nrzkt i don't know if players mods android_app
08:43 nrzkt but i think we must do a proper modding store, also on android, maybe using the native Android interface to be better ?
08:43 kilbith "Runs natively on <the OS>. Supports multiple languages"  and remove "translated by the community" - doesn't matter
08:43 VanessaE nrzkt: Move line 11 to the bottom of the paste and change it to read:  This game is also available for Linux, OS X, and Windows platforms.
08:44 VanessaE i.e. use that notion to encourage users to get the game on their PCs also, where available.
08:44 nrzkt Our game is also available for Windows, Linux, OS X and FreeBSD platforms
08:44 VanessaE (I left out FBSD, so put that back in)
08:44 VanessaE yes, something like that
08:45 nrzkt http://pastie.org/10041354
08:45 VanessaE turn a simple "fact" into a selling point/feature :)
08:46 kilbith this description is too split in small parts
08:46 VanessaE "A constant development to add new functionalities for end-users"  -->  "The engine is under constant development to add new functionality for end users."
08:46 VanessaE (line 11 of that latest paste)
08:46 nrzkt it's not a book it's a marketing description. Short sentences
08:46 paramat oh of course, i was PC-thinking :]
08:47 VanessaE not a book, perhaps, but complete sentences are important in marketing materials too.
08:47 paramat left #minetest-dev
08:47 VanessaE more specifically, good grammar is  ;)
08:47 kilbith "Supports multiple languages" following next to the OS supports
08:48 kilbith "Our game is also available for Windows, Linux, OS X and FreeBSD platforms. Supports multiple languages"
08:48 VanessaE "...platforms, and supports..."
08:49 nrzkt A constant development to add new functionalities for end-users => "We are developping constantly to improve your gameplay experience" (it's the french desc translation)
08:49 kilbith "self hosted" -> "self-hosted"
08:49 VanessaE by "self hosted" do you imply the user should be able to run his/her own server?
08:49 nrzkt yes
08:50 VanessaE "Play with your friends on public servers, or even run your own server."
08:50 kilbith you can host your server on Android ?
08:50 VanessaE that's one thing none of the clones can do, isn't it?
08:50 nrzkt you can, but that does not make sense, android devices are not servers
08:51 nrzkt and i don't think you can, wait a minute i look at android interface
08:53 kilbith "beautiful procedurally-generated world"  <- a bit too inflated no ?
08:53 nrzkt you can't
08:53 VanessaE ok that line will need to change then :)
08:53 nrzkt it's possible because engine support it, but the interface doesn't permit it
08:54 VanessaE "Play with your friends on public servers, or just play by yourself in single-player mode."
08:54 VanessaE maybe that'll work
08:54 nrzkt it's not the idea there
08:54 VanessaE (it's surprising how many people don't realize the game can do both modes)
08:54 kilbith "on public servers" -> "online"
08:54 nrzkt the idea is players can use internet servers or host their own server if they want
08:55 VanessaE but they...can't host their own server
08:55 nrzkt they can
08:55 nrzkt but not on their phone, it's not the goal of this sentence :p
08:55 VanessaE remember, this is the android build.  75% of the people downloading it don't even know how to google something
08:55 VanessaE let alone own a PC
08:56 VanessaE if you wanna mention running a server, add it to the multiple-OS-and-languages line.
08:56 nrzkt i don't think this is a good idea.
08:56 VanessaE i.e. "PC versions can also be used to run a server" or some such.
08:56 nrzkt we are talking about: play online on existing servers or host a server yourself
08:57 nrzkt we are not talking about the app function
08:57 VanessaE well how will the user be able to host a server then?
08:57 VanessaE they don't have a PC
08:57 VanessaE let alone a dedicated server or VPS
08:57 nrzkt you are too technical there
08:57 VanessaE nopre
08:58 VanessaE I'm telling you what the average android users are actually doing
08:58 VanessaE it's a sad state of affairs but this is what I see on a daily basis
08:58 kilbith android-powered servers are likely to be stupid / not serious anyways
08:58 nrzkt we only inform they can play online or create their own server. If they want the minetest.net documentation is for that
08:59 VanessaE but you're telling the user they can create a server when they actually can't.
08:59 VanessaE users don't care if android devices are appropriate to the task - I've had many ask if they can run a server on their tablet or phone
09:00 nrzkt VanessaE we are not talking about the application itself but about the online experience !
09:00 VanessaE wat
09:00 nrzkt then.
09:00 VanessaE you're talking about acting as admin for someone else's server then?
09:00 nrzkt A compromise: Play with your friends online.
09:01 nrzkt no hosting idea, just online, that's good :)
09:02 VanessaE "Play on your own local worlds, or online with your friends."
09:02 VanessaE (don't exclude the possibility of doing singleplayer mode)
09:03 VanessaE if you mention only one, players will assume the other isn't possib,e
09:03 VanessaE possible*
09:03 nrzkt Play on your device or online, with your friends.
09:04 kilbith no
09:04 kilbith playing online is playing with the device, confusing
09:05 nrzkt Play locally or online, with your friends.
09:05 kilbith better
09:05 VanessaE no, that implies you can play locally with friends
09:05 VanessaE (yes, english sucks)
09:05 nrzkt the syntax is not perfect :p
09:05 nrzkt french powa :p
09:06 kilbith play in singleplayer or online
09:08 nrzkt okay
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09:15 VanessaE well I'm outta gas.  night all :)
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11:11 Calinou https://play.google.com/store/apps​/details?id=net.minetest.minetest
11:11 Calinou not found?
11:12 kilbith banned
11:13 Calinou why was it?
11:13 kilbith http://irc.minetest.ru/minet​est-dev/2015-03-20#i_4193242
11:15 kilbith (maybe a M$ conspiracy...)
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11:29 Zeno` Maybe it's just googles new "human review" policy
11:29 Zeno` google's*
11:34 celeron55 that seems more like incompetence from google's part but what can you do, it's a monopoly
11:36 celeron55 seems like making the description just much shorter will work
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12:42 nrzkt app is now available on play store... but all it's possible that the application description was not updated
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13:01 * twoelk wonders how to switch languages in the playstore
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13:10 Zeno` #2429 ok to merge?
13:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2429 -- Update credits by Zeno-
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14:48 neoascetic when v7 mapgen going to be ready?
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15:01 Zeno` Should gregorycu be listed in the credits?
15:02 hmmmm i think so, sure
15:03 Zeno` ok. Can you add a comment to the PR to remind me?
15:03 Zeno` #2429
15:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2429 -- Update credits by Zeno-
15:03 Calinou what about me
15:03 Calinou (-:
15:03 Calinou I've had a minetest_game commit recently
15:03 hmmmm yeah but that's minetest_game
15:04 Zeno` should he be active contributor or previous?
15:05 hmmmm active
15:05 Zeno` hmm, ok
15:05 hmmmm i think the guideline is that they need to not have made commits for over 6 months to be considered 'previous'
15:06 hmmmm if I'm not mistaken, games have their own description/author/etc. field, right?
15:06 Zeno` There's not rush to update the PR, so I'll add it tomorrow if others agree also (actually if nobody disagrees)
15:07 Zeno` s/it/him
15:07 Zeno` so... "gregory cu <monkey_avatar>" should do?
15:08 Zeno` lol, just kidding
15:09 Warr1024 what are the criteria to be considered a contributor to begin with?
15:09 Calinou I think it is 3 commits in 2 months
15:09 hmmmm zeno the alf guy
15:10 Zeno` lol :D
15:10 hmmmm maaan i'm sick of work
15:11 hmmmm i'm going to skip out on today i think and get some minetest going
15:11 hmmmm a land without two-space indents and lameness
15:13 Calinou still better than three-space indents
15:14 hmmmm i really suck at time management
15:14 hmmmm been working on the same small thing for like a week now D:
15:16 Zeno` Warr1024, you really want to know the criteria?
15:17 Zeno` Warr1024, I shall tell you.  It's kind of complicated
15:17 hmmmm commit something
15:17 Zeno` Warr1024, First you must find a shrubbery
15:17 Zeno` Warr1024, Then you must find... another shrubbery!
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15:18 Zeno` Warr1024, Then, when you have found the shrubbery, you must place it here, beside this shrubbery, only slightly higher so you get a two layer effect with a little path running down the middle
15:18 Zeno` Warr1024, Then, you must cut down the mightiest tree in the forrest... with... a herring!
15:18 Zeno` That's about it
15:19 hmmmm lol monty python
15:20 hmmmm so, question
15:20 hmmmm how did using "string specifiers" for enums or flags in the lua api come about?
15:21 hmmmm i realize lua has no constants but can't we define global variables and somehow prevent setting them through metatables?
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15:43 paramat one for hmmmm https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2514 probably beyond my ability =)
15:49 paramat spring equinox and solar eclipse today, should be a day off work
16:08 * hmmmm scratches head
16:09 hmmmm what on earth could've possibly changed with ores since I implemented that...
16:09 hmmmm i don't think i changed anything
16:09 hmmmm what's with all this mapgen-related-thing breakage
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17:14 paramat erm, the backtrace mentions blob ore, not sure if that's a clue, and i recently added blob ores to all mapgens
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17:42 Krock Just to show the changes of my pull request: https://github.com/minetest/minete​st/pull/2493#issuecomment-84083311
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21:27 est31 ok, just a matter of time now until minetest shows up in f-droid: https://f-droid.org/repository/br​owse/?fdid=net.minetest.minetest
21:28 Warr1024 rockin'
21:28 Warr1024 looking forward to that
21:28 Warr1024 it'll be nice to have the thing on a market that doesn't keep bitching at us about non-specific "spam words"
21:29 est31 My guess is they think we are a copy of one of those clones
21:29 Warr1024 hilarious
21:29 est31 yes
21:29 est31 stupid machines
21:30 Warr1024 any way to get a non-stupid and/or non-machine review of the case?
21:31 est31 no idea
21:31 Warr1024 I mean, what if you upload an app that says it can "view documents", are you gonna get rejected because it's just too similar to other things that view documents?
21:32 est31 our description is very similar to other apps in the app store
21:32 est31 all they had the minetest.net page as original
21:32 est31 *we* should be allowed to copy it however
21:32 Warr1024 hell yeah.
21:33 Warr1024 I guess you could just find the clones and do GPL takedowns...
21:33 Warr1024 it actually sounds like the real issue is less one of copyright than of trademark...
21:34 est31 minetest is no registered trademark, not that I knew
21:34 Warr1024 doesn't necessariy have to be registered.
21:34 est31 play store is also bad as it requires a google account, and also to run proprietary code with admin permissions
21:34 Warr1024 it's not as good as f-droid, but not half as bad as Apple.
21:35 Warr1024 and by "admin permissions", you mean "root access, on the shitty little VM you have it sandboxed into" :-)
21:36 Warr1024 IIRC I recently ran into an issue where their dev tools required admin rights on a box to BUILD an app.
21:36 est31 android is more complicated than that
21:36 est31 it needs to be installed as system app
21:36 est31 having root is "not enough"
21:36 est31 or, another concept
21:36 est31 but yes, every system app on android can take UID 1 if they want
21:37 est31 and, install apps without being asked
21:37 Warr1024 oh, duh, you're talking about the playstore app on the device, i.e. on the consumer end; I thought you were talking about the stuff we needed to be able to submit the app to the store :-)
21:37 est31 ah, no
21:38 est31 and yes
21:39 Warr1024 the permissions you need to grant the play store to install it is really a first-world problem, though, compared to those of us still running manufacturer's images where they shipped with all the backdoors already installed :-)
21:40 est31 yeah
21:40 est31 and even then, the baseband on most mobile devices is pretty intrusive
21:41 Warr1024 IIRC the torproject guys were trying to come up with a way to build a "trusted" mobile platform, and I think they concluded that even wifi-only devices aren't 100% safe
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21:41 est31 yes
21:42 est31 neo900 perhaps
21:42 Warr1024 because wifi-only tablets and such actually DO have a baseband processor, since it's cheaper to tool your assembly line to make 1 product and just burn out a couple of leads, but it's just that YOU can't use it, not that it can't use you...
21:42 est31 yea
21:42 Warr1024 neo?  damn, those gotta be pretty hard to find.
21:42 est31 ?
21:43 Warr1024 ah, so they ARE trying to revive the whole openmoko thing
21:43 est31 yes
21:43 Warr1024 sounds like the Neo900 is still in dev, though.
21:44 Warr1024 it just kind of sucks that there's such a high "freedom tax" (or maybe more accurately, slavery subsidy) on electronics still
21:44 Warr1024 though market competition helps squeeze that gap closed.
21:45 est31 yea
21:45 * est31 wonders of freephone 2 status
21:45 est31 whether its good
21:45 Warr1024 if you ask me what I think the most important feature is to have in a microprocessor, I'd probably say "commoditization."
21:46 est31 in which sense?
21:50 Warr1024 making technology accessible and standardized
21:50 est31 ah that
21:50 est31 yea should be
21:50 Warr1024 consider ahead-of-their-time processor archs like MIPS, motorola 68k, and powerpc, which I believe were technically superior to the common intel procs at the time...
21:51 est31 I really hate this intrusiveness about some technologies
21:51 Warr1024 but because they were proprietary, they couldn't last against commodity IA32 and AMD64.
21:51 est31 binding stuff together thats technically unrelated
21:51 Warr1024 ARM is another nicely commoditized tech, and it's doing quite well.
21:51 est31 e.g. chat apps
21:51 est31 why do they only work on mobile devices
21:51 Warr1024 ha
21:52 est31 and, why is every its own walled garden
21:52 Warr1024 yeah, the inability to run android apps on desktop linux is perplexing.
21:52 Warr1024 apparently in the android kernel fork they wrote a lot of custom schedulers and stuff to optimize battery use, but they don't fit too well in with mainline...
21:52 Warr1024 but there are people working on that supposedly, so maybe someday...
21:52 Warr1024 the "each app runs as its own user" thing does make SOME sense to me.
21:52 est31 its really cool
21:53 est31 its a hack, but either way the result is good
21:53 est31 applications isolated from each other
21:53 est31 looking forward what the xdg-app people are doing
21:54 ElectronLibre left #minetest-dev
21:54 est31 finally something good by gnome ;)
21:56 Warr1024 ha
21:57 est31 (again)
21:57 Warr1024 hacks are what our world is really made of
21:57 Warr1024 we always shoot for beautiful ideals, but it's the hacks that end up getting shit done, and we're stuck with a certain amount of them in practice.
21:58 Jordach joined #minetest-dev
22:13 hmmmm grrr
22:13 hmmmm i see what's causing the clear_registered_* crashes
22:13 hmmmm nerzhul's list -> vector change
22:14 hmmmm thanks nerz
22:14 Warr1024 what's the diff between those?
22:14 hmmmm thanks for not checking whether or not an iterator is being invalidated
22:14 Warr1024 vector is array-backed, list is linked?
22:14 hmmmm warr1024:  conditions for iterator invalidation
22:14 Warr1024 ah, well, that, obviously, from your previous comment :-)
22:20 Warr1024 I have noticed that sometimes I disconnect my client from the server, but the server still thinks I'm logged in.
22:20 Warr1024 Albiet, the client is master and the serve is stable-0.4, but I thought those were *supposed* to be compatible for now...
22:21 Warr1024 didn't have this problem back in 0.4.10, but it's not repro 100% of the time, must be a race cond or something.
22:21 Warr1024 could be tricky to bisect, I guess.
22:22 hmmmm i think it would be a very good idea to go through each of the list->vector change commits and verify that they are being used correctly
22:23 hmmmm that's a bit of a problem, though, because some instances are highly-used variables
22:23 hmmmm we could be checking hundreds of instances
22:23 Warr1024 or maybe you can replace them with a wrapper or something that has some kind of diagnostic for incorrect usage?
22:23 hmmmm slowness
22:24 Warr1024 I mean, just to test, not to release or something ;-)
22:24 hmmmm we'll never hit all the uses
22:24 est31 apropos slowness can you review #2460 ?
22:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2460 -- Optimize minetest.get_(all_)craft_recipe(s) by ShadowNinja
22:25 hmmmm i'll have a look but this needs to seriously get fixed first
22:25 hmmmm hold on
22:27 Warr1024 if you find yourself in a mergey mood, I'd love to have someone take a look at #2462
22:27 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2462 -- Configurable automatic texture scaling and filtering at load time. by Warr1024
22:28 est31 btw what filters are applied?
22:28 Warr1024 there are 2, both optional/configurabl.
22:28 est31 I really like how the papyrus improved in the after picture
22:28 Warr1024 one cleans up the RGB values of transparent pixels, so when you're using a linear blending method, it doesn't blend "to" the junk RGB values that png optimzers leave behind.
22:29 Warr1024 the other one simply upscales the texture using nearest, so that a later-applied linear filter doesn't blur it all to hell
22:29 Warr1024 but it only upscales textures below your specified minimum size, so you can tune it to your performance wants.
22:29 hmmmm dammit nerzhul
22:30 Warr1024 I figured that when you mix'n'match mods, you'll get some with low-res textures that blur out, but some distribute with higher-res textures that may benefit a lot from nice filters...
22:30 hmmmm there is a metric shitton of code that does NOT work when changed to a vector
22:30 hmmmm i can't fix this without practically rewriting the entire class
22:34 est31 Warr1024, perhaps you should document your third option too
22:34 est31 and the commented out version should be the same as the default (dunno how its in other code, but thats a good principle)
22:35 Warr1024 est31: wait, which third option?
22:35 est31 texture_min_size_force
22:35 Warr1024 oh, huh?  I thought I removed that...
22:35 Warr1024 lemme check to make sure I have the right thing pushed out there...
22:35 est31 not in defaultsettings.cpp
22:36 deltib joined #minetest-dev
22:36 Warr1024 I really gotta write some script to automatically squash a bunch of commits in one branch into another branch, leaving the source branch untouched.
22:36 est31 ?
22:36 est31 why
22:37 Warr1024 so I can keep track of the history of a change, while still submitting it in the single-squashed-commit format MT desires.
22:37 Warr1024 I actually use my git commits and associated comments a lot to figure out what I was thinking at the time.
22:37 est31 gitk --all
22:37 Warr1024 in-code comments only describe the code in its current state.
22:37 Warr1024 don't have gitk.
22:37 est31 then dunno
22:38 Warr1024 eh, and I'm not really interested in reaching for the mouse while trying to develop ;-D
22:38 est31 there are methods to keep track of orphan commits
22:38 Warr1024 I'm sure it's not hard; just a matter of reading a few manpages until I find the least wrong way to do it
22:39 * est31 googles for stuff, faster.
22:39 Warr1024 naw, manpages load a lot faster than a web browser would
22:39 Warr1024 and lynx isn't so good for random websites out there anymore..
22:40 est31 I see you are a keyboard friend
22:40 Warr1024 it's a much nicer tool for writing code than the mouse :-D
22:40 est31 ofc
22:40 est31 but reading docs its good
22:41 est31 and firefox can be handled with keyboard only too bte
22:41 est31 btw*
22:41 Warr1024 yeah, but it's not as intuitive that way...
22:41 est31 I haven't figured out a good way how to switch windows with kde though
22:41 Warr1024 I mostly stick with keyboard and plain text terminals because I don't want to get too spoiled.
22:41 est31 alt tab is stupid
22:41 est31 lol
22:42 Warr1024 you never know when you'll be stuck debugging something over SSH over a dialup or something, on an 80x25 screen, and being accustomed to that will prevent the annoyance of it from distracting you :-)
22:42 est31 I know how to work with the console too
22:42 Warr1024 I mean, of course, that logic is a little bit https://xkcd.com/909/, but meh :-D
22:43 est31 lol
22:44 Warr1024 bash is going to spoil me by tab-completing git branches, though.
22:44 est31 is that bad
22:45 Warr1024 well, I'm not always on bash.
22:45 Warr1024 heh, that setting you mentioned
22:45 Warr1024 was ONLY in defaultsettings, not used anywhere else.
22:45 Warr1024 total whoops.
22:45 twoelk|2 joined #minetest-dev
22:46 Warr1024 yeah, I think I was thinking of making the default behavior enable prescaling to 64x if you enabled one of the bi-/tri-linear/aniso filters, but there'd be an option to force it on or force it off
22:47 Warr1024 the thinking was that most people wouldn't even know it existed if it wasn't in a roundabout way accessible in the settings UI, and they'd just think that filtering always blurred stuff, turn it off, and complain or something.
22:47 Warr1024 but then I thought about it, and trying to do all that automatic shit is probably overcomplicating it.
22:52 Warr1024 hmmmm: what kind of difference would the list->vector conversion have made, anyway?  I assume it must have been intended as a performance thing, but that'd only be on the server, right?
22:53 hmmmm yeah, performance enhancement.  std::list is notoriously slow at everything due to the need to allocate a new piece of memory for every element, and horrible cache locality
22:53 est31 "only server" lol
22:53 est31 I guess you are more a client person, while I'm more a server person
22:53 Warr1024 not at all
22:54 hmmmm the funny part here is that nerzhul changed a big piece of code from list to vector without even testing to see if it crashes
22:54 Warr1024 but I thought that the main performance bottleneck of the server would be the db backend, anyway.
22:54 hmmmm WITHOUT EVEN TESTING TO SEE IF IT CRASHES.
22:54 Warr1024 optimizing a piece of code that isn't a major contributor to overall slowness is, at least, not the best way to spend limited development energy...
22:54 hmmmm not a weird edge case, not an inconsistency in data that people can miss, but a reliable crash every time that feature is used
22:54 est31 that isnt good, I agree hmmmm.
22:54 est31 (that he didnt test)
22:55 hmmmm i am getting really fed up with this cowboy coding BS
22:55 est31 I always test my stuff
22:55 Warr1024 I thought there was a 2-core-dev signoff rule...?
22:55 hmmmm all i see is breakage
22:55 hmmmm Warr1024, there is, but nerzhul routinely ignores it
22:55 est31 Warr1024, not for trivial things
22:55 Warr1024 trivial as in not this.
22:55 Warr1024 :-)
22:56 hmmmm okay, new policy
22:56 Warr1024 going full cowboy isn't necessarily all that bad, but there are places for that :-)
22:56 Warr1024 (i.e. private branches/forks)
22:56 hmmmm i expect to see two names that signed off to the commit in the commit message, or else it's getting reverted
22:56 Warr1024 I'm doing my best to play nice
22:56 hmmmm don't even give a shit if it works
22:57 hmmmm warr1024, agreed.  nerzhul treats minetest upstream as if it's his own private repo
22:57 est31 hmmmm, is this your project?
22:57 hmmmm est31, why not
22:58 Warr1024 without having someone dedicated to reviewing and integrating code, you pretty much NEED a sign-off policy.
22:58 est31 hmmmm, I don't know whether other devs will agree to you changing rules without asking.
22:58 est31 any consensus at all
22:58 Warr1024 true, and he needs at least one other to sign off on it ;-D
22:58 hmmmm i kind of took the role of lead developer a few years back
22:58 hmmmm but I'm really not as active anymore because of real life stuff
22:59 hmmmm i don't know if people would see me as such
22:59 est31 reverting stuff isnt the right way I think
23:00 hmmmm we had this problem with another dev
23:00 hmmmm proller
23:00 hmmmm every time he'd commit something, something else would break
23:00 hmmmm so instead of working on higher priority problems, fixing the breakage becomes the new high priority
23:01 hmmmm it's interrupting others from doing their job.. it's so much simpler to just revert instead of stopping what you're doing, and then fixing it the right way
23:01 est31 then tell the person who did the damage to fix it.
23:01 Warr1024 they can fix it while it's reverted in master
23:01 Warr1024 and the re-merge it when it's fixed
23:02 Warr1024 frankly, if I broke the master branch, I'd pull my own code pretty damn fast, myself.
23:02 est31 reverting is destructive
23:02 Warr1024 how so?
23:03 Warr1024 the code still lives out there somewhere, in someone's repo, or private branch, or history, just waiting to get fixed up and take another try...
23:03 est31 okay, perhaps reverting isn't that bad at all
23:03 Warr1024 depends on whether you do a revert or a rewind, I guess.
23:03 est31 but it should only be done when you can confirm its that commit
23:03 Warr1024 git is beautiful like that.
23:03 est31 e.g. by bisecting
23:04 Warr1024 depends on how deeply you have to bisect (or how hard the problem is to repeatedly repro) vs. the need to get master immediately stable again.
23:05 Warr1024 I mean, it's not like you can't just revert a shitload of changes with extreme prejudice, and do the bisect on a side branch, either.
23:05 est31 just when does a commit become good enough so that you dont revert it?
23:05 est31 "old"
23:05 Warr1024 probably wouldn't be an issue much in the first place with a sign-off policy, anyway...
23:06 Warr1024 est31: ideally, there'd be some regression testing process or something, but realistically, someone'd probably have call it by gut...
23:06 est31 So you remove the "small stuff" rule hmmmm?
23:06 est31 exception*
23:07 est31 Warr1024, its done by players playing on the master branch
23:07 hmmmm the small stuff exception still applies, but we need to better define "small stuff"
23:08 hmmmm and, of course, unless it's something non function like changing the text of a comment or documentation, you better fucking test it before firing off a commit
23:08 est31 yes
23:09 hmmmm when you commit as fast as nerzhul, you tend to not bother verifying if things still work after your changes
23:09 hmmmm this happens to everybody, especially me
23:09 hmmmm there was a period of time during my christmas vacation when i had a lot of free time, so i rapid fired off commits and, there were bugs
23:12 Warr1024 heh, I was just thinking it'd be nice if there were a separate branch for getting public exposure and testing of really experimental new functionality, when I realized that there are already at least 2, that I know of.
23:12 Warr1024 i.e. freeminer and blokel
23:12 hmmmm yeah but...
23:12 Warr1024 Everyone is always "oh noez, the fragmentation" when a project forks
23:12 est31 my main critic point is that reverting perhaps isn't encouraging when you just revert instead of giving concrete critic points
23:12 hmmmm there's nothing different with blokel aside from a global s/Minetest/Blokel/
23:12 hmmmm freeminer is a stability laughing stock
23:12 Warr1024 hmmmm: well not yet
23:13 kilbith hmmmm, "don't even give a shit if it works"  <- remember the nasty bug on the seed ?
23:13 hmmmm kilbith:  that's fixed as of right now
23:13 Warr1024 but if any of them end up getting something cool and new, they'll subject their own userbase to the testing and debugging, and MT can sit back and cherry-pick it when it's good, and maintain the nice, stable upstream.
23:14 kilbith nope, the following patch that you have applied was uncomplete and SN has applied another patch (from fz72 iirc) when you left the team
23:14 kilbith that patch has been neglected by yourself
23:14 hmmmm here's to clarify on the seed business:
23:15 hmmmm what I fixed originally was the error about not being able to load map_meta.txt
23:16 hmmmm then, people said it was incomplete because it didn't fix a different, unrelated issue that i didn't really feel was an issue
23:16 hmmmm and was there for a lot longer
23:16 hmmmm so that's why I wrote some common mapgen params to map_meta.txt on world creation.  so that way seed would persist directly after the world directory was created
23:17 hmmmm there was an embarassing bug because of that, and it didn't generate a random seed if the fixed_map_seed field was blank
23:18 hmmmm because it was saved as blank to map_meta.txt, but the setting is present there, so it didn't even bother checking the main config
23:18 hmmmm i fixed that, but then people got buttmad that I didn't pre-save EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY MAPGEN SETTING POSSIBLE in map_meta.txt, even ones that the user would never interact with
23:19 hmmmm you don't need to save EVERYTHING, just settings that the user would interact with from the GUI
23:19 hmmmm jeez
23:20 est31 so why again is it important to be stored in map_meta.txt?
23:20 est31 and where was it stored before?
23:20 est31 world.mt?
23:21 hmmmm if a setting isn't present in map_meta.txt, it gets read from the main config file
23:21 hmmmm the reason why it's important to be saved is because some users do this thing where they create a bunch of worlds at the same time before starting one
23:22 hmmmm e.g. create new world -> enter seed -> create, instead of starting the world then they go on to create another new world -> enter seed (this overwrites the previously entered seed in the main config file) -> create world
23:22 hmmmm i suppose this does violate the principle of least surprise, but why are users doing such a weird thing to begin with?
23:23 Warr1024 Cleaned up that extra setting in #2462, just waiting on CI now.
23:23 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2462 -- Configurable automatic texture scaling and filtering at load time. by Warr1024
23:23 Warr1024 anyone want to give it a review?
23:25 Warr1024 btw, I can't seem to remember the right git command (i.e. which manpage to read) to squash a bunch of commmits down, aside from git rebase -i.
23:26 est31 I guess squash
23:26 hmmmm git rebase -i HEAD~<commit you want to squash down to> is the command you're thinking of
23:27 Warr1024 yeah, I wanted to script it without the -i
23:27 hmmmm this is just a nitpick, but when control structure bodies have multiple lines, you need to add brackets around them { }
23:27 Warr1024 oh, you mean like a wrapped statement?
23:27 hmmmm the exception is for dimensional stuff (iterating through x, y, z for instance)
23:28 hmmmm in which case you un-indent the inner loops
23:28 Warr1024 oh, so you do for (x...) for (y...) at the same indent level?
23:28 hmmmm yeah
23:29 hmmmm for example, this is bad:  https://github.com/minetest/minete​st/blob/master/src/noise.cpp#L572
23:30 est31 what about else if
23:30 hmmmm this is fine: https://github.com/minetest/minetest​/blob/master/src/mapgen_v6.cpp#L591
23:31 hmmmm trying to find other examples but i cleaned a lot of them out...
23:31 est31 but still not understanding why the first isnt dimensional stuff
23:31 hmmmm it is dimensional stuff, but it violates the rule because it's indented
23:32 Warr1024 yeah, I was worried that If I had to do a 3d convolution filter, all my code would be squashed in like the 3 rightmost columns...
23:33 Tablet_One joined #minetest-dev
23:34 Warr1024 Ok, gonna get those fixes pushed up in a couple minutes
23:34 est31 hmmmm, where exactly is that rule in http://dev.minetest.net/Code_style_guidelines ?
23:34 Warr1024 I get the feeling that that guide isn't very complete anymore.
23:34 Tablet_One Can anyone confirm #2520?
23:34 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2520 -- Android: noclip, fly, etc. buttons are way too sensitive
23:35 hmmmm http://fpaste.org/200786/42689451/
23:35 hmmmm it's not there
23:35 Warr1024 ah, I see what you mean
23:36 est31 nice, hmmmm should I add it to the page?
23:36 Warr1024 you don't want to have that situation where you're at the bottom of a deep-nested block wondering "did this level have a brace or not"
23:37 hmmmm http://fpaste.org/200787/94638142/
23:37 hmmmm Warr1024:  yeah basically
23:37 hmmmm I want to make bracing unambiguous but at the same time reduce the level of unnecessary indentation
23:37 est31 why is that bad
23:38 hmmmm why?
23:38 Warr1024 I guess that in your loop example, even if line 23 began with \t\t\t, it still wouldn't be acceptable.
23:38 hmmmm being mismatched I guess
23:38 hmmmm you could certainly debate it
23:39 est31 I'm not a python guy (really hate their rule), but what is the purpose of braces where they aren't needed.
23:39 hmmmm one of the things I've wanted to do with that code_style_guidelines page on the development wiki was to add some kind of wikia plugin to make it like c2's discussion pages
23:39 hmmmm est31:  trailing else :)
23:39 Warr1024 an example of "bad" would be https://github.com/Warr1024/minetest/commi​t/c27565600af150e8fae604e990c0cbc6a23e8251 lines 275-277
23:39 hmmmm code style is something everybody's welcome to discuss, debate, develop new things on
23:39 Warr1024 that's how bugs happen where you end up doing something in a loop when it was meant to be outside, or outside when it was meant to be in.
23:40 hmmmm Warr1024, another thing
23:40 hmmmm to avoid excessive indentation and add self-describing code, the texture filtering thing I would split off into its own function
23:40 hmmmm *personally*
23:40 hmmmm i know carmack says this is bad, but not everybody has text editors with foldable braces
23:41 Warr1024 I don't have foldable braces
23:41 Warr1024 I'm doing this shit in plain ol' vi.
23:41 hmmmm heh
23:41 hmmmm i'm not that hardcore
23:41 Warr1024 I actually have another client-side diff in the works, very close to ready for PR
23:41 hmmmm so for example with your change you can make it
23:42 hmmmm if (g_settings)->getBool("tex​ture_clean_transparent"))
23:42 hmmmm applyCleanTransparencyFilter(blah blah blah);
23:42 hmmmm then you save 2 indents
23:42 Warr1024 right now, I'm sort of on the fence about the function thing.
23:43 Warr1024 but in my other PR, were this to be merged already, I'd pretty much have to refac out the common code
23:43 hmmmm i like it because it gets you to think about the inputs/outputs of your code
23:43 hmmmm or your function i mean
23:43 Warr1024 True, I was just hoping to sneak this one in before I really knuckled down and started to learn some C++ :-D
23:44 hmmmm when it's in one giant control structure, the inputs are the current state of that function and all the local variables
23:44 hmmmm and i guess if you're not planning on sharing the code with anybody else that's okay but :)
23:44 exio4 that sounds somewhat not so nice
23:44 hmmmm what
23:45 Warr1024 naw, I was hoping to refactor it, but I didn't really want to keep changing my diff and invalidating any code reviews I'd already passed :-/
23:45 est31 thats this thing I don't like about the signed-off story
23:45 hmmmm changes like those are okay
23:46 hmmmm i don't think that moving into its own function would invalidate reviews
23:46 hmmmm well unless you're nerzhul
23:46 Warr1024 the other thing I'm working on is https://github.com/Warr1024/​minetest/commits/guiscaling, and it involved enough code that I had to break out functions
23:46 est31 lol nice troll
23:47 Warr1024 but I started to get the feeling it was too "C" and not "C++" enough to be accepted :-/
23:47 hmmmm ohh no
23:47 hmmmm you shouldn't try to be C++y
23:47 Warr1024 ah, okay
23:47 Warr1024 in that case, what are your feelings on malloc use :-D
23:48 hmmmm well, since this is .cpp, malloc would be out of place
23:48 Warr1024 heh
23:48 hmmmm but other than that
23:48 hmmmm so the thing is, most people treat C++ like "a better C"
23:48 Warr1024 other than that, no need for a class when functions will suffice?
23:48 hmmmm it has containers, all this convenient syntactical sugar, etc.
23:48 hmmmm right
23:49 hmmmm but there shouldn't be any pressure for you to use features that don't help make the code cleaner or better in some way
23:49 Warr1024 cool
23:49 hmmmm like for example what about node drawtypes
23:49 Warr1024 ?
23:50 hmmmm the way it works right now is that the drawtype is an enum, and a giant switch statement decides how it each gets drawn
23:50 hmmmm that's totally fine.  it freaking works and it's simple and unambiguous
23:50 Warr1024 ah, cool.
23:50 hmmmm the "C++ Way" of doing this, on the other hand, would be to make a base class
23:50 hmmmm and then make a derived class for each different drawtype
23:51 hmmmm each will have their own drawThing() pure virtual method
23:51 hmmmm like... no.  that's really C++y, but how does it make the code BETTER?
23:51 hmmmm it makes a lot of sense if you're a Java-person, but that's only out of habit
23:51 Warr1024 I guess it'd probably be best to just make each drawtype a function, eventually in their own files (depending on line count maybe) and just have a switch with function calls.
23:52 Warr1024 polymorphism would make more sense if those classes were to encapsulate more than one function each.
23:52 Warr1024 I guess a lot of it depends on how much wear'n'tear you tolerate on your pgup/pgdn keys.
23:53 hmmmm yeah, I mean at the very least I think it could be cleaned up that way
23:53 hmmmm each switch statement case could be a function call
23:54 hmmmm if the switch statement crosses a certain threshhold, like let's say 15 cases, and they're all in the same call format, I'd argue that's the point at which it should be a lookup table of function pointers
23:54 Warr1024 ok, style fixed, pushed, CI build started
23:55 hmmmm by the way, nobody's going to annoy you about code style
23:55 hmmmm and it's not a blocking issue
23:55 Warr1024 cool, thanks
23:55 hmmmm it's just there to know how the rest of the code 'should be'
23:55 Warr1024 eh, it's not a bad idea to start out doing things right.
23:56 hmmmm I guess it depends on the person you ask though
23:56 Warr1024 I'm used to using a "when in rome" code style.
23:56 hmmmm there is a certain ninja here who is absolutely anal about this
23:57 hmmmm Warr, yeah, true, but if you spend enough time in rome it eventually becomes your own
23:57 hmmmm or at least that small part that is your house
23:57 hmmmm certainly we'd like developers to get comfortable
23:57 Warr1024 eh, I spend a fair amount of time in different Romes, so I don't mind adapting my code style to the project I'm contributing to.
23:58 Warr1024 on my own projects, I use Whitesmiths indenting style (mostly), and NOBODY uses that in the wild.
23:59 Warr1024 it's a throwback to a mentor I had back in college, and it's stuck for me.
23:59 exio4 Warr1024: I don't think abusing subtyping makes sense, subtyping polymorphism is probably what you do not want in the 99% of the cases it is used
23:59 Warr1024 looks REALLY bizarre in perl, and is almost unusable in lua/perl (I've had to adapt)
23:59 exio4 Warr1024: implementing those virtual functions and base clases doesn't scale that much when things start having "multiple" properties, that you need to mix and match, too

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