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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-02-22

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Time Nick Message
00:03 ShadowNinja Taoki: Why not sypport it if all it takes is an #ifdef?
00:03 Taoki ShadowNinja: I was wondering whether an #ifdef can be used. But I'm not sure how to do that for Irrlicht.
00:03 Taoki In either case, it means the improvement won't work for people with Irrlicht 1.7. If that is acceptable I don't mind.
00:04 Taoki Not sure about my workaround to the restarting animation glitch, that might work. But non-looped animations will not.
00:16 ShadowNinja Taoki: #if (IRRLICHT_VERSION_MAJOR == 1 && IRRLICHT_VERSION_MINOR > 8) || IRRLICHT_VERSION_MAJOR > 1
00:17 Taoki Thanks, I'll try this
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00:18 Taoki ShadowNinja: Will another Travis build be triggered if I force update the branch? I won't make another commit since I'll then be requested to squish them and don't know how especially on Github
00:20 ShadowNinja Taoki: Yes, Travis knows to rebuild.
00:20 ShadowNinja (and I can force it anyway)
00:20 Taoki Nice. I'll hopefully find a solution in a few minutes
00:26 Taoki Fixed and pushed. It should work now... unless the start / end frame checks also require 1.7, then I have to do it for those as well
00:26 Taoki Travis compilation is in progress, no need to retrigger it
00:35 Taoki Awesome, no more issues now :)
00:43 Taoki ShadowNinja: Is the formatting for the #if tags good? Those I can break into multiple lines if it's too long, and if the compiler doesn't mind of course
00:45 ShadowNinja Taoki: They're fine.
00:45 Taoki Nice. I can put the code aside for now in that case. I assume others will have to test it before it's merged so
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01:29 paramat now merging game#412
01:29 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/412 -- mapgen.lua: Add dirt/sand/gravel blobs to mgv5/mgv7. Use blob ore for clay. Tune flowers by paramat
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03:03 Zeno` ShadowNinja, Does %g work better?
03:06 Zeno` nvm
03:07 ShadowNinja Zeno`: No, it's even worse.  Things as short as 12345678 use exponential notation (Currently gets to 12345678912345678 or so without losing precision).
03:08 Zeno` yeah :)
03:11 Zeno` you could always specify precision but I don't really know what the problem was, so *shrug*
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03:30 ShadowNinja Zeno`: The problem is that large integers (used for node hashes) need to be serialized precisely, but floats need to work too.
03:32 Zeno` Ah, I see now
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05:30 hmmmm jesus christ I can't stand it
05:30 hmmmm I don't want to be here right now but minetest is headed toward disaster
05:31 hmmmm at least respect my last wish:  stop with the protocol breakage.
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12:04 sfan5 is there not going to be a 0.4.13 or why are we planning to merge 0.5 pulls into master soon?
12:07 Krock network changes are coming and 0.5.0 would be good for a compatilibity break
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12:25 sfan5 apparently not
12:25 sfan5 nrz announced in the forum that we will be merging incompatible changes (that are for 0.5) on 1st march
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14:17 Wayward_One did i miss something? i was under the impression the next release would be 1.0
14:18 nrzkt no :p
14:18 nrzkt but this is a version bump, yes
14:18 nrzkt and this release will happen when the roadmap will be done, or nearly done
14:19 Wayward_One ah, ok
14:20 nrzkt nore, Zeno`, no problem if i add the following line in README.txt into "In case you downloaded the source code": If you want to use source code for your public server, please follow a stable-X branch instead of master, which could break your players' experience
14:21 nore perhaps put something explicit about protocol incompatibility
14:23 nrzkt then what do you suggests ?
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14:31 nore nrzkt: "the server on the master branch is incompatible with stable clients"
14:31 nore just add something like that after what you say
14:32 nrzkt could be incompatible ? because it's not everytime :)
14:33 nore I suggest adding that when we merge the first incompatibility
14:33 nore and removing it after the 0.5 release
14:39 T4im since there's no backporting to the stable branches you should probably keep master as long compatible as possible and put the breaking changes into their own branch
14:39 nrzkt backport could be possible, bugfixes and maybe some little functions
14:42 T4im but unlikely to happen.. also keep in mind that master usually is associated with "current stable version" as its usually the default branch (and thus the default one when checking out), I would expect quite a few servers out there to run on some version of master due to that
14:42 nrzkt informations have been posted about htat.
14:44 T4im doesn't change my point :P just adds a warning sign to it
14:45 T4im on the bright side, that might mean less mobile clients on servers for a while, hehe
14:46 nrzkt no
14:46 T4im there will be servers updating to current master, even if that breaks old clients (including mobile ones I assumed)
14:46 nrzkt this means servers admins must be careful :) stable-0.4 contains all the compatiblity, and informations have been posted for how switch to stable-0.4 branch
14:47 T4im still doesn't change my point about it still happening.. information provided or not :p
14:47 nrzkt no problem :)
14:48 T4im new mod features leads to mods using new features... requiring new minetest server versions.. so there will be servers updating just to use updated mods eventually..
14:48 T4im happened in the past
14:49 nrzkt you are right
14:51 nrzkt then the modders must be careful and manage their compatibility layer too, because it's not our job, we will give high level API in 0.5 to improve mods performance, and it's why there is a break. In FOSS you couldn't keep a compatibility layer everytime, it's unmaintainable at a moment. Network layer is a great part, and because everything will be rewrite we couldn't provide a compatible layer. If you are an admin you
14:51 nrzkt must be careful about your product.
14:52 T4im saying "its not our problem" does not solve the problem :P in this case it creates it
14:53 nrzkt maybe, but, because it's a FOSS you can create the compat layer if you want :)
14:53 nrzkt i cannot provide a compat layer because _INIT packet must be changed.
14:53 celeron55 where's this forum post that was talked about?
14:53 nrzkt https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=18&t=11289
14:55 T4im nrzkt: I wish there was a way for a mod to add such a layer.. but I wouldn't even know how to querry what minetest version the server is running without adding heuristics, that you simply cannot demand from most modders... I think only debug builds offer that information to mods...
14:56 nrzkt a mod couldn't manage network layer.
14:56 nrzkt and modders are not affected by this network change, we are not modifying the LUA api
14:56 T4im not yet ;)
14:57 nrzkt you need to have a LUA api to know which is the MT server version ?
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14:58 nrzkt also we could add a thing to main.cpp to show the version and warn users
14:58 T4im well depends.. as long as there's only lua api additions, there are easier ways to test.. but if there should be behavior changes (and I opened some issues to point out there are some required as they currently are not working as documented), you might have to
14:58 nrzkt i don't think we must change the LUA calls, but add some newer
14:58 T4im the api has broken calls atm
14:59 Zeno` apparently there *is* a way to change the protocol without breaking protocol
14:59 Zeno` I haven't looked though. But apparently the mechanism is there (or so I've been told)
14:59 nrzkt oh T4im, maybe, but not because of me
15:00 nrzkt in fact Zeno` protocol version handling at this moment isn't very reliable because it's based on packet length...
15:00 T4im I know.. but your point was, mods should manage those cases if they are fixed after compatibility breakage
15:00 nrzkt mods will not be affected by protocol break.
15:00 T4im currently the only way to use those fixes is by ignoring any compatibility issues
15:01 T4im they won't... but servers will in reuslt
15:01 Zeno` I've been meaning to ask. When was the March 1st deadline/cutoff discussed and set?
15:02 Zeno` nrzkt?
15:04 nrzkt we can change it if you want :) but it was because the patch was discussed and over discussed and it's now ready for merge, and i will have time in march to do a great PR 4/4, after this will be difficult :)
15:05 Zeno` I'd just like to know where it was discussed and how the decision was made :(
15:06 Zeno` Because there are a few core devs here who knew nothing about that decision until they read the minetest forum
15:06 nrzkt it was a little bit partial, because of my timetable :s
15:06 rubenwardy #2320 does compile of me
15:06 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2320 -- Fix superflous shader setting updates by gregorycu
15:07 rubenwardy "error: ‘v3f’ has no member named ‘getAs3Values’" is the problem in travis, it is probably an issue with different libraries
15:07 rubenwardy * versions
15:07 nrzkt irrlicht 1.7, not 1.8
15:07 Zeno` nrzkt, some warning or discussion might have been nice :(
15:07 nrzkt then we can change this if you want, tell me
15:08 nrzkt after the merge of network PR 3/4 we must merge the damage patch and the inventory patch too
15:09 Zeno` What I am saying is, is that there seemed to be a lack of communication
15:09 Zeno` but perhaps I was asleep when it was discussed
15:10 nrzkt no, you drunk but doesn't forget anything :)
15:10 T4im no drinking and deving, Zeno` :x
15:10 Zeno` heh
15:11 nrzkt xD
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15:15 celeron55 nrzkt: i think we must have the incompatible version in a separate branch initially
15:16 celeron55 here are two reasons why:
15:17 celeron55 1) master has been compatible with the stable version since forever; people aren't going to catch up fast enough (this not a major reason, but a reason nonetheless)
15:18 celeron55 2) master has been compatible with itself since forever; this is probably impossible to get through to users who want to use a bleeding edge version
15:18 sfan5 ^ ack
15:18 nrzkt then we should maintain 3 branches ?
15:18 sfan5 there is nothing to maintain in stable-0.4
15:18 sfan5 -> "only" 2
15:19 celeron55 i mean, the branch that includes the initial incompatible network changes is going to continuously change in incompatible ways because the problems aren't limited to the initial breaks
15:19 celeron55 if it doesn't need to continuously change, then  we don't actually have big enough problems to mandate a breakage in the first place
15:20 celeron55 a separate branch will also serve as a reality check for whether there actually are enough fixed problems to make it worth being incompatible
15:22 T4im oh, that ^ is probably the best reason yet.. allows you to change network layer more flexible with continuous breaking changes without having to hold yourself back until the final break is merged into master, nrzkt
15:22 celeron55 once we agree that it indeed has improved things by an amount that makes it worth being incompatible, and we agree that it doesn't need to break much anymore, it can be rebased on top of master
15:23 nrzkt okay celeron55
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15:24 celeron55 it does not seem that there's much else going on regarding to the network layer, so keeping the network modification branch up-to-date doesn't seem like a too large issue
15:26 nrzkt in fact some PR are related to protocol incompat and nobody must change the Send and read functions, and this wouldn't be too difficult
15:26 celeron55 even while mostly you are working on it, the branch should be in the organization repository so that others also can use the rare chance of radically fixing things
15:27 celeron55 and reviewing it becomes easier and whatnot
15:28 rubenwardy #2375
15:28 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2375 -- Fix superflous shader setting updates by rubenwardy
15:31 celeron55 something like "network-rework" might be a good branch name
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15:32 nrzkt okay, if you want celeron, i'll create it next week
15:35 rubenwardy It works! #2375
15:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2375 -- Fix superflous shader setting updates by rubenwardy
15:36 celeron55 once the branch exists, it becomes everyone's reponsibility to use it to fix long-standing issues and to judge when it's fixing enough things to be worth the incompatibility
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16:00 celeron55 someone asks by email for the option to turn player name visibility completely off
16:00 celeron55 maybe someone could implement that, altough it could always be cheated with a modified client
16:01 celeron55 they want to play hide and seek 8)
16:02 VanessaE actually, bring able to turn player names off with a keypress is useful when taking screenshots
16:02 rubenwardy Related: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1345
16:02 VanessaE (e.g. for a "server overview" image, since it's not hard at all for players themselves to get lost in the image, but the player names stand out regardless)
16:03 nrzkt #2376
16:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2376 -- Add find_surface_nodes_in_area LUA call which permit to only get the nodes which are under air nodes by nerzhul
16:07 nrzkt please review it, it permits to improve performances of plantlife, but not only if there are other mods which needs to know surface nodes
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16:31 nrzkt celeron55: i changed the topic on the forum :)
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19:22 celeron55 somebody who says he is a noob and uses dali linux asks by email for an x86 binary package with libraries included
19:22 celeron55 why is a noob using dali linux, is my question
19:23 celeron55 well anyway, if somebody is interested in making such a package, there's one person in this world who needs it
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19:27 shadowzone x86..
19:28 celeron55 he also says blender has such a package and it works for him
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19:32 EvergreenTree I was wondering, should something as small as #2378 warrent a pull request?
19:32 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2378 -- Add src/network/CMakeFiles/ and src/client/CMakeFiles to gitignore by 4Evergreen4
19:34 kilbith does anyone can disable the Debug build option on Launchpad please ?
19:34 kilbith kind of slowness
19:36 est31 kilbith, you mean at startup?
19:36 kilbith yes
19:36 est31 thats because of the unittests
19:36 est31 nrzkt is working on a solution
19:36 est31 but right now there is a discussion on whether to compile them into release builds
19:37 kilbith and perhaps a bit less FPS than my own compiled build
19:37 kilbith (Release type)
19:38 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/b3aeba684b4e27e9fdf2c07949750bb567e40d6b
19:39 kilbith that build is intrinsically slower than the release one anyways
19:39 kilbith "Debug build is slower, but gives much more useful output in a debugger."
19:39 kilbith > http://dev.minetest.net/Compiling_Minetest
19:40 est31 thats true
19:41 * est31 wonders whether it might be a good idea when the network breaks to discontinue launchpad daily build repo, or to force a manual step.
19:41 est31 as in renaming the package
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20:45 manax Can someone explain the separation of code in player vs localplayer?  I'm looking at getStandingNodePos(), which seems like it should be in player, but it requires crouch stuff, which also seems like it should be in player... So, wondering.
20:53 Wayward_One i think i may have found another memory leak... almost ran out of memory after 30 minutes of playing, recent git, only minetest and irc running
20:53 * Wayward_One git pulls to be sure
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21:28 Wayward_One yep, seems to be a memory leak... just git pulled, joined a server about 10 minutes ago, and memory use is up from about 400Mb to 1.8Gb, and it's gradually climbing
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21:36 est31 it seems that the reason #2378 travis failed was because of an offtime of one of sfan5's servers: https://travis-ci.org/minetest​/minetest/jobs/51748219#L4425
21:36 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2378 -- Add src/network/CMakeFiles/ and src/client/CMakeFiles to gitignore by 4Evergreen4
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21:49 sfan5 est31: i restarted them
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21:54 est31 sfan5, ok,added comment so that nobody thinks this is the PR's fault
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22:27 Fritigern Interesting, MT4.11 will be in the Ubuntu 15.04 repositories. I guess that's a lot better than it was...
22:28 est31 but its not 0.4.12 :(
22:31 Fritigern Of course not. Because there is not 4.12 yet
22:33 kilbith Fritigern, don't be so sure of that ;)
22:34 Fritigern I just pulled and built, and I am at 4.11-255-gcd4324e
22:34 Fritigern So yeah, i am very sure
22:34 est31 thats because of an error
22:34 est31 there is 0.4.12
22:34 est31 ~topic
22:34 ShadowBot est31: Minetest core development and maintenance. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/
22:34 est31 ~topic #minetest
22:34 ShadowBot est31: Welcome to #minetest, the official channel of Minetest | Version: 0.4.12 (2015-02-18) | Responses may take a while, so be patient. | Rules: http://wiki.minetest.net/IRC#Rules | Development: #minetest-dev | Server list: http://minetest.net/servers | IRC logs: http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest/
22:34 est31 see?
22:35 est31 Fritigern, its issue #2357
22:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2357 -- Make git version discovery work on master by est31
22:36 Fritigern Wow, what a mess
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