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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-02-10

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Time Nick Message
00:17 Zeno` joined #minetest-dev
00:25 crazyR joined #minetest-dev
02:16 Wayward_One Zeno`: yes, i still have the lag problem with singleplayer :/
02:49 Zeno` is it real? :)
02:49 Zeno` i.e. remove the mod that shows the lag and use /status instead
02:50 Kalabasa joined #minetest-dev
02:51 Miner_48er joined #minetest-dev
02:51 Zeno` It'd be nice to get this nailed. Another question might be: how does the performance of HEAD compare to 0.4.11 at release? Or even 0.4.10
03:55 Fritigern joined #minetest-dev
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05:29 Zeno` Lucky Tesseract gets to check if his own patch works... dunno how that works
05:32 Tesseract Zeno`: I don't feel like blowing a day setting up an Android build env, so I just asked someone that already had it set up.
05:32 Zeno` That's what I meant by "not sure how that works"
05:33 Zeno` I wish I'd written down what I did to make my Android build env. Not sure if I have the energy to set it up again
05:34 Zeno` well /set font_size 10  crashes... I suppose I'd better write an issue since I can't fix it myself
05:36 Zeno` all these /set this and that, that people can do gives me a headache
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05:50 chrisf joined #minetest-dev
05:51 Zeno` I don't suppose anyone knows why RBA added: https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/blob/master/src/itemdef.cpp#L375 ??
05:57 Zeno` It probably doesn't do anything anymore
05:58 kahrl probably because the RTT thing uses hardware lighting and the shaders don't support that
05:59 Zeno` I think he must have worked around it some other way because in map_block_mesh.cpp "enable_shaders" is cached
05:59 Zeno` and not updated if g_settings->set("enable.... is called
06:00 Zeno` The reason I bring it up is that the g_settings->get/set/set is expensive
06:01 Zeno` and I can't find where it's being used anyway (unless I'm blind)
06:01 kahrl where is it cached?
06:01 kahrl except for the per-instance m_enable_shaders
06:03 Zeno` yeah, the per instance
06:03 kahrl well, the code in itemdef.cpp creates a new instance
06:03 * Zeno` sets breakpoint
06:03 kahrl line 385
06:04 Zeno` yeah
06:04 Zeno` what is RTT?
06:04 kahrl render to texture
06:04 Zeno` ah ok
06:04 kahrl or round trip time :P
06:05 Megaf joined #minetest-dev
06:05 Zeno` I knew the second definition but it didn't fit with the context :P
06:06 Zeno` it might be worth adding another parameter to the MapBlockMesh::MapBlockMesh() I think
06:06 kahrl yeah, I'd like to remove the workaround as well, mostly because it's a case of using global state to fix a local problem
06:06 kahrl which is almost always bad
06:07 Zeno` yeah that's what's worried me more ... I called it "using a setting as a variable", which I guess is the same as your fancier description :)
06:07 kahrl I got it from http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthin​g/archive/2008/12/11/9193695.aspx :)
06:09 kahrl it should be OK in this case, since only the main thread is probably interested in the enable_shaders setting, but I'm not even sure about that
06:09 est31 as there is now a freeze branch, can you consider merging #2225 ?
06:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2225 -- Fixes for minetest.get_(all_)craft_recipe(s) by gregorycu
06:10 kahrl but yeah an additional MapBlockMesh parameter would be nicer
06:10 kahrl perhaps a flag in MeshMakeData
06:11 Zeno` I'm just wondering about the best way to approach it. I don't like adding a parameter with a default value to the default ctor
06:11 Zeno` oh it's not default dtor anyway
06:11 Zeno` heh
06:13 kahrl move m_enable_shaders from MapBlockMesh to MeshMakeData?
06:16 Zeno` hmm
06:18 Zeno` hmm, hmm, hmm
06:18 kahrl are you trying to summon a certain dev? :P
06:19 Zeno` no
06:19 Zeno` trying to think
06:19 Zeno` hahha
06:20 Zeno` his nick is the name of my thinking word which is... hmm
06:21 * VanessaE plays the Jeopardy theme for Zeno`
06:21 VanessaE good morning.
06:21 Zeno` And I am thinking becayse I'm wondering if I should take your advice or leave my current solution haha
06:21 Zeno` guten morgen
06:22 Zeno` current solution is https://gist.github.com/Zeno-/61a7ec602dc6860b57a5  (with tidying up)
06:24 kahrl with the MeshMakeData solution you can remove another unneeded g_settings->getBool
06:25 Zeno` true
06:25 Zeno` ok, that's settled then
06:31 Zeno` MeshMakeData doesn't seem to be used a lot
06:31 nrzkt joined #minetest-dev
06:31 kahrl 3 times as far as I know: from client.cpp, itemdef.cpp, wieldmesh.cpp
06:32 Zeno` I'm not complaining :) I was expecting more
06:33 kahrl well there aren't that many reasons to make a mesh from a mapblock ;)
06:36 Calinou joined #minetest-dev
06:36 Zeno` sane reasoning does not always count
06:36 Zeno` so, we're good to go adding commits to master?
06:36 Zeno` and bug fixes etc to that freeze branch?
06:37 kahrl yeah
06:37 nrzkt oh yeah !
06:37 Zeno` nice
06:38 Zeno` so I should be able to cache "enable_shaders" at a much higher level.. even better
06:39 Calinou cache ALL the things!
06:39 Hunterz joined #minetest-dev
06:39 nrzkt cache me please :D
06:40 Zeno` Calinou, trying to. Just making some small changes to make it reality ;)
06:40 kahrl one thing I wonder about is tags
06:40 kahrl is it a problem if the 0.4.12 tag points to a commit that is in a deleted branch?
06:40 kahrl and never was in the master branch?
06:40 nrzkt commits must be both in 0.4.12 branch and master
06:41 kahrl nrzkt, but a tag can't point to two commits
06:41 nrzkt and after for the release feature freeze must be merged into stable 0.4
06:41 nrzkt no, but commit is same
06:41 kahrl we don't merge
06:41 kahrl rebase only
06:41 Zeno` I thought the branch would just stay
06:41 nrzkt look
06:41 nrzkt https://github.com/nerzhul/ocsms/commit/​c3b55fbde910c1dfb88a95bb41f0e9f83dbc33cc
06:42 nrzkt https://github.com/nerzhul/ocsms/commits/stable
06:42 nrzkt master & stable
06:42 Zeno` i.e. rename the branch after it's not frozen anymore
06:42 Zeno` then there is no point to a tag... is there?
06:43 Zeno` oh
06:43 Zeno` could do it that way also
06:43 nrzkt pull feature freeze in stable-0.4
06:43 nrzkt it's not a merge
06:43 Zeno` and have tags in the "stable" branch
06:43 nrzkt it's only a copy :)
06:44 nrzkt because there is no way to have conflicts, but master must have the same commit, be careful
06:44 Zeno` anyway, I'll bbl... must do my exercise so I can sleep properly
06:45 kahrl https://github.com/nerzhul/ocsms/commit/​2b0701ccc734acfa86151ae312120096356f86a1
06:45 kahrl is that not a merge?
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07:51 nrzkt joined #minetest-dev
07:55 nrzkt kahrl, yes i use it some times :)
07:55 nrzkt why using only rebase and not merge, if travis said it's good ?
07:56 nrzkt and this merge comes from PR accepted, not merge between my branches :)
07:57 JakubVanek joined #minetest-dev
07:58 JakubVanek rebase makes linear history, not sure about merge
07:59 nrzkt sure, merge let the commit at its date in history, but merge is shown at proper date
07:59 hmmmm hey guys, what are the advantages to mingw builds exactly??
08:00 nrzkt compile for windows on unix
08:00 hmmmm huh
08:00 Calinou free compiler
08:00 Calinou no shady optimizations
08:00 * Calinou nuff said
08:00 nrzkt can #2209 and #2214 be merged into master ? They are little commits, easy to read :)
08:00 hmmmm calinou, visual studio is free
08:00 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2209 -- Little performance improvement: use getPlayer(peer_id) instead of getPlayer(playername) by nerzhul
08:00 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2214 -- Performance improvement -> Craftdef.cpp: Improve loop and mathematics for CraftDefinitionShaped::check by nerzhul
08:00 Calinou it isn't
08:00 JakubVanek i586-mingw32msvc toolchain
08:00 hmmmm maybe it's not free as in freedom but neither is clang using that argument
08:00 nrzkt windows is not free
08:01 est31 joined #minetest-dev
08:01 Calinou it's proprietary
08:01 hmmmm visual studio express + windows platform SDK is freeware
08:01 Calinou ;)
08:01 Calinou and we don't want your “freeware”
08:01 hmmmm i wonder if we should start trying out icc builds
08:02 Calinou nope.
08:02 Calinou just nope.
08:02 Calinou it's Intel-biased and suffers from the same problems as MSVC
08:02 Calinou no one uses ICC in the free software world, too :P
08:02 hmmmm or maybe it produces the fastest code which is something very desirable
08:02 Calinou it probably doesn't, too
08:03 Calinou try out Clang?
08:03 hmmmm clang is still immature vs. gcc in terms of performance
08:03 hmmmm if it can't beat gcc, how can it even have a chance against icc?
08:04 hmmmm when push comes to shove, people tend to not really give a crap about 'freedom' and end up using the technically best tool for the job
08:04 Calinou but you're the one shoving proprietary software on people here
08:05 hmmmm by compiling things using a certain compiler? :/
08:05 Calinou compilers ought to be free, because nasty stuff happens otherwise
08:05 hmmmm our code is free
08:05 Calinou yes, proprietary compilers are evil and biased
08:05 Calinou it is widely known that ICC cheats at benchmarks
08:05 hmmmm maybe they should be using a free operating system if they're so worried about freedom
08:05 hmmmm i don't understand the rationale behind using mingw builds because it was built using a "free" compiler when every other aspect of their platform is nonfree
08:06 hmmmm I'm not going to do MSVC builds.. it's just added work
08:06 hmmmm err, MinGW builds
08:06 hmmmm for this time around anyway
08:06 Calinou cross-compilation is an useful upside
08:06 kilbith joined #minetest-dev
08:14 nrzkt hmmmm, in the future i can help minetest by do an automated task on my jenkins instance is that could help
08:16 Calinou we could have some kind of CI for daily builds, yes
08:16 Calinou post it on forum once it is set up
08:16 Calinou and dev wiki
08:17 nrzkt ofc, i'm using FreeBSD for my jenkins, then i could build for Windows & Linux (and also build .debs :) )
08:17 hmmmm wait, i though travis-ci was fixed
08:18 hmmmm grr, seems like I can't use static libraries
08:18 hmmmm welp, need to recompile ogg/vorbis/vorbisfile AGAIN
08:19 JakubVanek ogg/vorbis/... in visual studio are hell
08:20 hmmmm haha
08:20 hmmmm no they're ok
08:20 hmmmm you want to know true hell?  try compiling leveldb for windows
08:21 hmmmm so 99% of people who run minetest on windows are going to be fine with sqlite because it's likely they're not running any serious servers, but rather connecting to servers
08:21 nrzkt xD, troll spotted :p but i think you are right
08:22 JakubVanek maybe ogg in mingw; i don't know leveldb well
08:25 hmmmm weird
08:25 hmmmm out of all the libraries so far i seem to be having the most trouble with gettext
08:25 hmmmm on windows is gettext and iconv supposed to be combined into a single libintl.dll?
08:26 hmmmm i think i got this one from the official GTK website
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08:40 kahrl hmmmm: I don't think so; I see both libintl.dll and libiconv.dll in older minetest msvc builds
08:41 kahrl hmmmm: CMakeLists.txt looks for a iconv dll as well
08:41 hmmmm yeah i had to download iconv separately
08:41 kahrl did you manage to build it? (and gettext)
08:42 est31 dunno what latest HEAD commit wanted to achieve, but didnt work for me
08:42 est31 lifebar still drawn too low
08:42 hmmmm I downloaded the binaries from gtk
08:42 hmmmm in any case I'm getting weird errors now
08:43 hmmmm c:\users\b\desktop\mtbuild\minetest​\src\cguittfont\irrUString.h(3864) : error C2039: 'unary_function' : is not a member of 'std'
08:43 hmmmm i guess it's trying to build with C++11???
08:44 twoelk joined #minetest-dev
08:44 hmmmm C++11 shouldn't be in visual C++ 2008 though
08:44 hmmmm what's going on
08:44 kahrl ah I see, they're not as horribly outdated as the official gettext msvc build
08:45 kahrl I didn't know about them when I tried to build minetest so I started making my own visual studio project :S
08:46 kahrl https://github.com/kahrl/gettext-msvc
08:46 hmmmm hrmm i don't understand this
08:46 kahrl (got bored, so ^^ is a bit incomplete, notably msgfmt is missing)
08:46 hmmmm did I not configure it right or is xCGUITTFont.cpp broken under windows?
08:47 hmmmm looking at http://support.microsoft.com/kb/243444
08:47 kahrl hmmmm: well, people have managed to compile it...
08:49 crazyR_ joined #minetest-dev
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08:53 gregorycw joined #minetest-dev
08:53 Zeno` joined #minetest-dev
08:54 kahrl hmmmm: apparently for some people #include <functional> is needed, https://forum.minetest.net/viewtop​ic.php?f=7&amp;t=7033&amp;start=50
08:55 gregorycw left #minetest-dev
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08:56 Zeno` kahrl, I'm preparing to merge #2119
08:56 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2119 -- [patch 1/4] Network rework: Rewrite client/server packet handling & packet reading by nerzhul
08:56 kahrl hmmmm: std::unary_function is not a C++11 thing, in fact it has been deprecated in C++11
08:56 nrzkt oh yeah
08:56 Zeno` it's been running on my server for 24 days and ran on VanessaE's servers until last week
08:56 hmmmm right
08:57 Zeno` hmmmm is awake? :-o
08:57 nrzkt don't forget little fixes like #2214 and #2209
08:57 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2214 -- Performance improvement -> Craftdef.cpp: Improve loop and mathematics for CraftDefinitionShaped::check by nerzhul
08:57 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2209 -- Little performance improvement: use getPlayer(peer_id) instead of getPlayer(playername) by nerzhul
08:57 Zeno` nrzkt, I'll do a few at a time (those that I've tested)
08:57 Zeno` 2119 is surely thoroughly tested by now ;)
08:59 kahrl https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2119/​files#diff-60f7e3708240135081fe3828dea97c93R351 is a bit ridiculous :P
09:00 kahrl but there's no good way around that I guess
09:00 Zeno` That's how I'd probably have done it in the first place
09:01 Zeno` most of my "toy machines" (virtual machines) use a similar method
09:01 Zeno` void handleCommand_EyeOffset(ToClientPacket* pkt) <--- I'd prefer the * to be against the parameter name
09:03 Zeno` anyway, I have to eat. I plan to merge this 2119 in the next 8 hours (just giving you all a heads up and a chance to object) ;)
09:03 Zeno` afk for a bit
09:03 hmmmm nrzkt, I heard you wanted to change the protocol to use TCP
09:04 JakubVanek joined #minetest-dev
09:04 hmmmm TCP isn't used because it ensures in-order-delivery, and in doing so, creates much higher latencies than acceptable
09:04 hmmmm this is a conscious design decision and we don't really think it's a good idea to change it
09:05 nrzkt hmmmm
09:05 nrzkt look at this PR and you'll see many packets are sent as reliable, then the order is important.
09:05 nrzkt the TCP overhead is less important than the minetest TCP over UDP
09:05 gregorycu left #minetest-dev
09:06 nrzkt and for example, world of warcraft uses TCP
09:06 hmmmm huh??
09:06 Zeno` I'll let you two debate that one :D
09:06 gregorycu joined #minetest-dev
09:06 hmmmm just because a packet is sent as reliable does not mean the order is important
09:06 kilbith sapier wanted to use TCP too
09:06 nrzkt but we can do a mix, and use a TCP connection and a UDP connection together
09:06 JakubVanek_ joined #minetest-dev
09:06 nrzkt TCP for reliable and UDP for nobody cares packets
09:07 nrzkt TCP permit to use proper sessions on the server too
09:09 gregorycu joined #minetest-dev
09:11 est31 joined #minetest-dev
09:13 hmmmm pfffff
09:13 hmmmm well I'm stuck
09:13 hmmmm to fix KB946040 I need to apply a hotfix, but the link is broken
09:13 kahrl hmmmm: #include <functional> did not work?
09:13 hmmmm no this is a pdb problem
09:14 jin_xi joined #minetest-dev
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09:17 hmmmm kahrl:  including <functional> did solve the xCGUITTFont.cpp problem.  now it seems all that's left is the pdb error and this libintl.h error
09:18 hmmmm rather that's not a libintl.h error, hmm
09:18 kahrl why does it even try to build a pdb in release mode?
09:19 hmmmm i don't really know, but we do need them from now on since the msvc builds generate minidumps on crash
09:19 kahrl oh, right
09:19 hmmmm so we don't have to go through the "can you please get a backtrace of the crash" rigamarole with users experiencing problems
09:20 hmmmm ahhhhh ok
09:20 hmmmm so for whatever reason WinNls.h is included without Windows.h in gettext.cpp
09:20 hmmmm after I fix this problem I'm only going to have 5000 linker errors :)
09:21 kahrl :)
09:21 hmmmm on the bright side, once I get this rig working I'll presumably never have to redo it again
09:21 kahrl I wouldn't count on it
09:22 kahrl once we switch to C++11, msvc 2008 won't do :P
09:22 hmmmm :(
09:24 hmmmm here's one: ..\..\minetest\src\gettext.cpp(68) : error C2065: 'LOCALE_SENGLISHLANGUAGENAME' : undeclared identifier
09:24 kahrl that was also mentioned in the thread I linked, let me check
09:25 hmmmm yea
09:26 hmmmm i see it
09:29 hmmmm ah shoot look at how late it is
09:29 hmmmm gotta go NOW
09:29 nrzkt xD
09:31 Zeno` oh, that reminds me... I have to report the CGUITTFont.cpp segfault
09:31 Zeno` and assign it to kahrl
09:32 * Zeno` hides
09:32 kahrl you better hide
09:34 * Zeno` triple hides
09:35 Zeno` maybe some things should not be changeable using /set... but that's a big can of worms :(
09:37 Zeno` kahrl, what is hmmmm doing?
09:37 Zeno` building with msvc?
09:37 kahrl well he was before he left
09:38 Zeno` could krock be of help here?
09:38 est31 as we now have a release branch, can we merge #2225 ?
09:38 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2225 -- Fixes for minetest.get_(all_)craft_recipe(s) by gregorycu
09:38 kahrl he might
09:39 Zeno` est31, has it been reviewed and tested?
09:39 est31 I have tested it.
09:40 est31 I've brought this up before, they said It was ok, but I should come back when the freeze is over
09:40 jin_xi krocks pasted solution is this: -#include <WinNls.h>
09:40 jin_xi +#include <windows.h>
09:40 jin_xi but dunno if it applies here
09:40 kahrl we shouldn't discuss #2225 here
09:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2225 -- Fixes for minetest.get_(all_)craft_recipe(s) by gregorycu
09:41 kahrl gregorycu wants it to be discussed on github only
09:41 est31 when you come up with an issue, I'll notify that on github
09:42 est31 note*
09:50 kahrl Zeno`: well it seems obvious why /set font_size changes
09:50 kahrl FontEngine::readSettings calls cleanCache which drops the old fonts
09:51 kahrl for example the m_font in GUIChatConsole, which the latter will happily continue to use
09:52 kahrl whoops s/changes/crashes
09:53 kahrl if you comment out iter->second->drop() in cleanCache, the segfault disappears (but of course there's a nice leak)
09:54 Zeno` I know *why* it happens I just don't know how to fix it properly ;)
09:55 kahrl ah
09:58 kahrl how about https://gist.github.com/kahrl/24d5c037e1688b860918
10:01 kahrl btw, is the font supposed to become extremely blocky when I change font_size in-game?
10:03 nrzkt Zeno` #2119 whitespaces fixed
10:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2119 -- [patch 1/4] Network rework: Rewrite client/server packet handling & packet reading by nerzhul
10:04 Zeno` ok, merging now
10:04 Zeno` there have been no objections have there?
10:05 Zeno` pushed
10:12 Zeno` what's the other PR that needs a lot of testing?
10:12 Zeno` nrzkt?
10:13 Zeno` oh wait... the big one breaks backward compat?
10:13 nrzkt yes ?
10:13 Zeno` ok, I'll leave that for now until it's been discussed more
10:14 Zeno` looking at your other 2
10:14 nrzkt the other PR doesn't need many tests, i think testing it 3 or 4 days could be good
10:14 nrzkt i will redo the patch 2/4 PR
10:14 est31 is "the big one" the tcp move?
10:15 nrzkt no
10:15 nrzkt TCP move isn't finished yet
10:15 est31 k
10:15 nrzkt at this time it needs more things, i only break the connection model, i need to work on transmission and session rework now
10:15 est31 so old client cant connect to the new server?
10:16 est31 s/the/a/
10:16 nrzkt in fact protocol is purely bugued at this time
10:16 nrzkt it need a break for future release
10:16 est31 yea
10:16 nrzkt some packets are wrong, some others aren't well formed, and i need to have a well designed API to write packets. PR 1 and PR2 have compat, but PR 3 will fix design
10:17 est31 there are just some ppl that offer their servers from master.
10:17 est31 like vanessae
10:17 Zeno` what are some other PRs that need looking at?
10:18 est31 Zeno`, scroll up :)
10:18 nrzkt #2214 and #2209
10:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2214 -- Performance improvement -> Craftdef.cpp: Improve loop and mathematics for CraftDefinitionShaped::check by nerzhul
10:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2209 -- Little performance improvement: use getPlayer(peer_id) instead of getPlayer(playername) by nerzhul
10:18 nrzkt they are little, comparing with network :p
10:18 Zeno` apart from those :P
10:19 Zeno` I'm already looking at those two
10:19 Zeno` est31, I can't merge 2225
10:19 est31 why
10:20 Zeno` because it's not allowed to be discussed
10:20 Zeno` someone else will have to do it I guess
10:20 est31 I'm keeping out of your dispute
10:20 Zeno` If there is an obstacle that makes my work harder (e.g. cannot discuss on IRC) then I just won't bother
10:21 nrzkt ok #2273 is out. Tests before merge are require, i recommend 3 days on running servers
10:21 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2273 -- [Patch 2/4] Network rework: packet writing, sending and cleanups by nerzhul
10:21 est31 I'll relay everything you note to github
10:22 Zeno` est31, all I am saying is that I'm not going to spend the time reviewing the PR when the author will not spend the time talking about it. If that's petty then I am petty
10:22 Zeno` There are other coredevs who can look at it
10:22 est31 ok
10:22 Zeno` I merged one of his PRs only 2 days ago, btw
10:22 Zeno` so there is no malice... I'm just being lazy
10:25 est31 #2073 is ready too -- most of the comments are just about fixing something completely different
10:25 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2073 -- Simplify Readme build steps by est31
10:26 nrzkt for 2073, i think we must add a reference into game to minetest_game, this permit to clone recursive
10:27 est31 not neccessarily
10:28 nrzkt no but this is very useful :)
10:28 nrzkt #2273 need review please :)
10:28 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2273 -- [Patch 2/4] Network rework: packet writing, sending and cleanups by nerzhul
10:30 Zeno` yeah, that looks ok at first glance
10:30 Zeno` (2073) I mean
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10:36 JakubVanek_ oh PR #2261 needs to rewritten now, i'll try
10:36 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2261 -- damage_per_second negative number implementation by JakubVanek
10:37 nrzkt wait for #2261
10:37 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2261 -- damage_per_second negative number implementation by JakubVanek
10:37 nrzkt i think i must fix it in network rewrite before
10:37 nrzkt the fix needs a protocol break
10:38 JakubVanek_ ok
10:38 nrzkt rebase it now, but it need to be a little bit rewrited when patch 2/4 will be merged
11:06 Zeno` any comments on #2217?
11:06 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2217 -- Fix Exit to OS button focus in Pause Menu by ngosang
11:07 nrzkt seems good
11:14 Zeno` I think focused_element is a sound idea
11:14 Zeno` I'm inclined to merge it
11:19 est31 what does 2073 need to get merged?
11:26 Zeno` est31, what is pilzadam's comment referring to?
11:27 Zeno` doesn't seem related to the diff at all :/
11:28 PilzAdam joined #minetest-dev
11:28 Zeno` speak of the devil
11:29 Zeno` est31, lines 120- work for any distro and not just debian/ubuntu/debian-derived
11:31 Zeno` lines 108, 111, and 115 should be clarified to show they're using git (the only distro specific thing is, really, lines 108/109
11:31 Zeno` lines 111 and 115*
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11:34 est31 Zeno`, PilzAdams comment is about which packages to have in line 106
11:34 est31 so unrelated
11:35 est31 Where is it written that the commands only work for debian/ubuntu?
11:35 est31 I can clarify  in line 108 that its an example for debian/ubuntu
11:36 est31 lines 111 and 115 already contain a hint, but I can make it even clearer if you wish :)
11:36 Zeno` yeah, maybe just clarify that. Change it to something like make sure git is installed, for example on @*$(@*$(*@($*@( you can use apt-get *$(@*#$(@
11:37 Zeno` well, I know Ubuntu is popular but 111- and 115- are fine (and distro agnostic)
11:38 est31 yea gonna change 108
11:39 Zeno` e.g. maybe there needs to be an extra heading before lines 111 and 120???
11:40 Zeno` other than that the rest is good as far as I can see
11:41 est31 yea good idea, just idk how to format it, there is no example of that headline level
11:41 Zeno` -j2 might need explanation (e.g. $make -j2 # comment here) but that's pedantic
11:42 Zeno` maybe... hmm... Downloading using git    and   Downloading archive? I dunno
11:42 Zeno` hard
11:43 est31 yea but how to make the headlines. there are two levels of headlines currently in readme: one at the start underlined with ==== and many others underlined with -----
11:43 est31 the only 3rd-level "headlines" I could find worked with identation
11:43 Zeno` Maybe they shouldn't even be part of "Compiling on GNU/Linux:"
11:43 Zeno` they should be getting the source
11:44 est31 isnt that too complicated?
11:44 celeron55 i'm adding nerzhul to the core team on github now
11:44 JakubVanek_ nrzkt: would you mind if i add getS8() to NetworkPacket? if so, it's okay, I'll read u8 and cast it
11:44 Zeno` Not sure... getting the source and compiling are two different things
11:44 celeron55 (aka nrzkt)
11:44 Zeno` celeron55, good call
11:46 celeron55 without any assigned subsystem for now; you can note me if you have ideas about those
11:46 Zeno` I don't have a subsystem either lol
11:46 Zeno` I'm just a drifter
11:46 est31 a serious drifter :)
11:47 celeron55 in my opinion some of the subsystem maintainers should probably be replaced by more active people, but i'm not sure who would fit which
11:47 nrzkt ofc Jakub
11:47 celeron55 and... the open ones should be filled in
11:47 celeron55 (http://dev.minetest.net/Organisation)
11:47 nrzkt but getS8 will be removed in part 2 to use the << >> operators
11:48 nrzkt i can take network part :)
11:48 celeron55 that probably makes a lot of sense as you're reworking a lot of it anyway
11:48 nrzkt Thanks c55 :)
11:49 nrzkt i go to lunch
11:50 Zeno` est31, anyway once the ... hmmm... ambiguities? that we've spoken about are incorporated I'll merge the PR
11:50 celeron55 (i guess sapier won't mind as he's hasn't been that active in the past month)
11:51 Zeno` est31, it's hard to tell where to stop. E.g. I don't do "in source" builds heh
11:51 est31 ?
11:51 Zeno` I guess it's a "yep, this is the basic way to do it"
11:51 Zeno` I don't do cmake .
11:52 est31 but?
11:52 Zeno` I prefer to keep my builds completely out of minetest so I have ~/minetest-build and do cmake ../minetest/   but it's a bit complicated
11:53 Zeno` I'm just saying to demonstrate that keeping it simple is the way to go (and you're 99% of the way there)
11:54 Zeno` I was just saying it as a sort of curiosity statement. I should have kept my mouth shut
11:54 est31 nono curiosity is good
11:54 est31 :)
11:54 celeron55 (this means nrzkt can push his own changes to the networking part, but of course nrzkt has the responsibility to make sure people are genreally okay with the changes)
11:55 celeron55 generally*
11:59 Zeno` is #2265 ok to push?
11:59 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2265 -- Increase MapBlock::actuallyUpdateDayNightDiff() performance by 2-8x by Zeno-
12:00 celeron55 where did you get that 8x figure from?
12:00 Zeno` callgrind
12:00 celeron55 to me it looks like quite strictly a 2x improvement
12:00 est31 differs wasnt initialized ? lol
12:00 Zeno` I expected only 2x performance as well
12:00 celeron55 (50% calls to nodemgr->get() means a 2x improvement)
12:00 Zeno` but callgrind disagrees
12:01 Zeno` maybe cache?
12:02 est31 updated 2073
12:02 celeron55 Zeno`: have you tested whether that actually works?
12:02 celeron55 because i think i see a bug
12:04 Zeno` with differs?
12:04 celeron55 at least one bug is immediately obvious: the light level of a node has to be interpreted as f.light_source if the node does not store a light value
12:04 celeron55 your code seems to assume that if a node does not store a light value, the end result is 0, while it should f.light_source
12:04 JakubVanek_ oh travis ci builds readme :)
12:05 celeron55 at least that's how the old code works
12:05 Zeno` which lines?
12:06 celeron55 in your code MapNode::isLightDayNightEq, in the old code MapNode::getLight and the comparison done directly in MapBlock::actuallyUpdateDayNightDiff
12:07 celeron55 there really should be a unit test for this as this is so prone to regressions
12:08 celeron55 your optimization really makes the code less maintainable and readable
12:09 Zeno` I can't see the error but I'll double check it
12:10 celeron55 hmm wait
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12:11 celeron55 hmm i think i was wrong
12:11 celeron55 the reason why i was wrong is because there isn't a separate f.light_source value for LIGHTBANK_DAY and LIGHTBANK_NIGHT
12:11 Zeno` right
12:12 Zeno` I'll double check it anyway
12:13 celeron55 yeah so it looks fine to me
12:15 twoelk joined #minetest-dev
12:17 celeron55 let's try to make a habit of commenting "+1" to a pull request always if you check it to be pushable, even if you already say it on IRC
12:18 Zeno` I think that's a good idea
12:18 Zeno` I suggested it to SN a while ago
12:18 Zeno` because of time differences etc
12:18 celeron55 yeah i realized this when i was away for a long time and then wanted to see if there are any pull requests that i might want to merge
12:18 celeron55 the problem becomes, there was no easy way of knowing whether anyone had checked it
12:19 Zeno` I agree
12:20 Zeno` should nrzkt be voiced?
12:21 celeron55 yes but he won't be because of laziness
12:21 Zeno` hah
12:21 celeron55 (is nrzkt even "he"? stupid english with gender-locked pronouns)
12:21 Zeno` est31, 2073 looks better
12:21 Zeno` I'd rather not call him "it"
12:22 celeron55 i do assume nrzkt is a human
12:22 * Zeno` adds a +1 to 2073
12:23 Zeno` ok, bbl
12:23 est31 celeron55, you want to review 2073 too? then we can merge it :)
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12:27 twoelk regarding discussions about core-dev activity, do take into account that the lifestyle of quite a few has changed just recently as  instead of being pupils at school they are now students at university with different schedules and intensive exam times. So the dev- regulations system should offer sollutions for problems concerning seasonal-workers of which there seem to be quit a lot.
12:29 gregorycu__ joined #minetest-dev
12:29 twoelk maybe also a is-on-holiday should be added so that others know when not to wait for activty from someone in charge of something
12:30 twoelk er, is-on-holiday-status I meant
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12:31 gregorycu Isn't uni more flexible than school?
12:31 gregorycu But I think it's a good point
12:31 twoelk may be so but also much more intensiv
12:32 gregorycu Fair enough, I did 2 degrees at once
12:32 twoelk I used to fall of the face of earth for some weeks or even months during exam times
12:32 gregorycu But I didn't attend lectures or tutorials
12:32 gregorycu Only the stuff I had to attend
12:33 gregorycu I'm sure others are more sudious
12:33 gregorycu Like, attend spelling lectures etc.
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12:35 twoelk I attended way too much and most of it off-topic - but
12:37 twoelk I think minetest should be carefull to not force activity on people on a too fixed form
12:37 celeron55 est31: commented
12:39 gregorycu joined #minetest-dev
12:41 celeron55 twoelk: if people gracefully drop their tasks and not clinch to them while not doing anything to them, they can come back just as easily
12:41 nrzkt i'm back
12:42 celeron55 twoelk: the point is to try to allow progress to be made independently of whether a certain person is making it or not
12:43 celeron55 so if you stop having time for development, state it so that others can adjust to it and aren't waiting for anything
12:44 celeron55 that isn't too much to be asked
12:44 gregorycu joined #minetest-dev
12:44 est31 celeron55, added two packages
12:45 twoelk that's why I think there should be a formal way to do this - like an extended afk/holiday note of sorts
12:45 gregorycu I'm back
12:46 gregorycu From my perspective, if you trust people to be contributors, there is no reason to un-trust them, even if they are UA
12:47 celeron55 being a core developer serves multiple purposes, only one of which is trust
12:47 gregorycu That is true, what are the other purposes?
12:48 gregorycu I use the term "trust" to mean several things, trust in ability, trust in diplomacy, trust in terms of responsibility
12:48 twoelk I would rather think the problem is that it is not clear wether somebody is working activily on a subject or not. And wether the afk is due to going to toilet or rather a mountain tour of several weeks
12:49 gregorycu I don't understand what "subject" means
12:50 gregorycu Surely a contributor, or just a member of the community has the same responsibility to be transparent about they ability to contribute to tasks worked on many people
12:50 celeron55 i guess the other purposes aren't well-defined, but it kind of implies that the person will allocate time for the project quite regularly and it implies that because of that, the person can take on larger tasks in the project without too much interference from others
12:50 twoelk and stating something on irc is not the same as displaying a status somewhere static that may show the status much as the master server list does for servers for example
12:51 celeron55 s/and it implies that because of that/and because of that/
12:51 celeron55 (i can't english)
12:52 gregorycu If I commit to working on a serious bug, I think I should be held to a similar standard to a contributor
12:52 gregorycu Not just me, I mean as a member of the community
12:53 celeron55 can anyone come up with a practical solution to what twoelk is talking about
12:53 celeron55 it seems to be so low-bandwidth and high interval stuff that it's not worth maintaining a system for that
12:53 gregorycu I think it's a wrong solution
12:54 celeron55 what do you think is the problem and how would you solve it in practice?
12:54 gregorycu I think things should continue to function, even if someone doesn't report themselves AFK properly
12:55 gregorycu And you do that by regular updates when working on tasks, so that others can pick up the work and continue if you go away
12:55 nrzkt gregorycu, i will help you to commit things and discuss with you if they are good, without problems :)
12:55 gregorycu Thanks nrzkt
12:55 gregorycu :)
12:56 gregorycu I suppose I don't think it's a good idea to tighten the requirements to be a contributor (I hate this word)
12:58 gregorycu Because I feel there are not enough and, if I can be so frank, doing so too much could be seen as a little disrespectful to the contributors and the work they put in for RL commitments
12:58 gregorycu (I don't want to be a contributor, let me be clear)
12:58 nrzkt if you do a pr you are a contributor :)
12:59 gregorycu I don't know what the term is
12:59 nrzkt core-dev
12:59 gregorycu Thank you
13:01 nrzkt someone have objection for #2209 and #2214 ? Kahrl ?
13:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2209 -- Little performance improvement: use getPlayer(peer_id) instead of getPlayer(playername) by nerzhul
13:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2214 -- Performance improvement -> Craftdef.cpp: Improve loop and mathematics for CraftDefinitionShaped::check by nerzhul
13:02 gregorycu I look at the 107 pull requests, I don't think they are outstanding because the current crop of core-devs are bad, there is just not enough of em :)
13:03 twoelk there are parts tha+1
13:03 twoelk I hate my cache :(
13:04 est31 yea, in fact I've wanted to improve the core too, but then I saw the long list of PRs, and decided to make a test pr (you guess which) in order to find out how fast PRs get merged.
13:04 twoelk I only typed +1
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13:05 nrzkt est31 i'll start a cleanup today, but i have to fix problems at work before :)
13:06 twoelk gtgnow, just was affraid the new regulation suggestions might be not compatible with some life- and contribution styles
13:06 est31 nrzkt, nobody requires you to review test and merge them all today.
13:06 nrzkt no, but i'll talk with PR senders and ask if they are present :)
13:10 celeron55 gregorycu: as i see it, being a core-dev is more of a responsibility than a privilege; i wonder if that is why i don't really see those things you mentioned as being problems
13:12 gregorycu In my eyes you can't have responsibility without privilege, or the other way around
13:12 gregorycu I mean to say, does it hurt the project if a person goes on an unscheduled hiatus for a little while?
13:18 nrzkt Can i close #138 ?
13:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/138 -- Health bars above player names
13:18 celeron55 gregorycu: it may, but it shouldn't have to
13:20 gregorycu Part of the solution is to ensure you always have a big enough bus factor
13:20 celeron55 i was just going to say exactly that with a lot more complex words 8)
13:21 celeron55 the fact is, we don't have a big bus factor, and it doesn't even seem to be very achievable
13:22 celeron55 part of the problem regarding to that is that people are mostly driven by the technology, not the end product
13:22 celeron55 it has been a common issue for years
13:23 gregorycu Well, let's get this part of the discussion then
13:23 gregorycu You are starting that with your 5 points for a PR
13:23 gregorycu If I'm not mistaken
13:24 celeron55 starting what with what? i don't get anything of what that line means
13:27 celeron55 ...i'm really curious of what that might have meant
13:27 gregorycu Trying to find the thing in the wiki
13:27 celeron55 wait do you mean the... thing
13:28 celeron55 the thing that nobody ever looked at
13:28 crazyR joined #minetest-dev
13:28 celeron55 this? http://dev.minetest.net/Merging​_core_pull_requests_to_upstream
13:28 gregorycu Yeah, point number 1
13:29 celeron55 what's the issue
13:29 celeron55 (note that nobody has ever followed or probably even read that page)
13:30 est31 I guess if somebody actually merges PRs based on this, or employ this, others will follow
13:31 gregorycu I thought the page was a new thing
13:31 gregorycu I thought you were addressing: "part of the problem regarding to that is that people are mostly driven by the technology, not the end product"
13:32 celeron55 it looks like i made that page in June last year, so yeah it's relatively new
13:36 celeron55 i probably made that page in response to some kind of complaint by someone about PRs being hard to review and tried to come up with at least something that people can refer to
13:36 celeron55 i still don't understand whether gregorycu thinks this is a problem or a solution, lol
13:36 gregorycu :)
13:37 gregorycu I think the bus factor issue needs a solution
13:37 celeron55 it certainly hasn't solved nor caused any problems so that's a starting point for this discussion
13:37 gregorycu I'm happy with the core-devs we have, I don't think they need to be filtered
13:37 gregorycu This is of course, an outsiders perspective, as I'm not a core-dev
13:38 gregorycu An example is what held up the release
13:39 gregorycu There was nothing on github listed as a blocker
13:39 gregorycu I'm sure there were some core-devs looking into whatever problem it was
13:39 gregorycu But I would have liked to take a casual look, see what has been tried, maybe try something myself
13:40 gregorycu I guess I would have had to come in here, and fluked catching one of the people working on it
13:40 celeron55 i too am very unaware of what's going on with that
13:40 gregorycu Did some of them get hit by a bus? I don't know. No visibility.
13:41 gregorycu I honestly don't care about them, or their personal lives, only the issue and how they are progressing if they are making progress
13:41 celeron55 i assume a few people were looking into it and then when the week started had to pause it, and didn't really document it anywhere but this channel
13:42 celeron55 i guess they were expecting it to be a smaller problem and didn't plan that it would be come a multi-week bughunt
13:42 celeron55 become*
13:43 gregorycu A website with peoples holidays doesn't help here
13:43 gregorycu Anyway, I'm ranting a bit
13:44 celeron55 this is not a very common occurrence so i'm just hoping it will sort itself out
13:45 celeron55 (by moving the feature freeze out of the way of other development)
13:46 celeron55 but really, the issue here was that when some people don't have time to work on things, they were able to freeze almost the whole project by thinking that nobody else would be doing anything at any faster pace than them
13:46 celeron55 which is ideally really just a small quirk in the process
13:47 gregorycu MT doesn't always have priority in peoples lives, the process has to make it so when it is a priority they do the boring "paperwork" so that other people can carry on
13:47 gregorycu Paperwork = gihub comments, forum discussions
13:48 celeron55 i have tried to make it clear that people should be transparent in what they do, but i've kind of failed
13:48 celeron55 maybe the things that have to be done should be more strictly defined
13:48 celeron55 not a fan of that, but if it works, then it works
13:49 gregorycu They have degrees in Project Management
13:49 gregorycu Because it's hard to get right I suppose
13:50 gregorycu Anyway, I have a small problem with the PR churn rate, 107 pull requests is a lot. I'm attributing it to the "long" feature freeze
13:56 celeron55 the main issue with PRs still is that judging their quality is relatively easy, but judging their content is difficult
13:58 est31 yea
13:59 est31 but if people explained how to test it, then reviewers would follow their thought processes which makes it more likely both miss a bug
13:59 celeron55 i mean, not technical content; it's still in the easy part
14:00 celeron55 purely technical PRs are easy
14:01 gregorycu I'm just waiting until microsoft fucks up minecraft, then I feel we'll have an onslaught of PRs, mods and new players
14:01 celeron55 actually, now that i look at the PR listing this in mind, almost all of them are purely technical
14:02 celeron55 yeah this project will be strongly supported by microsoft in the future
14:02 gregorycu Right, you are concerned about PRs where you are not sure they meet point 1
14:03 celeron55 historically point 1 has been a huge problem, but it's simply not the problem right now
14:03 celeron55 is there a problem to begin with? lol
14:04 gregorycu There are pull requests from 2013
14:05 gregorycu And 107 PRs in total
14:06 celeron55 it's not that bad; there are 1177 closed PRs since 2011
14:07 gregorycu I suppose my opinion comes from my own outstanding PRs
14:08 celeron55 that's a possibility 8)
14:09 celeron55 there exists no requirement for anyone to handle PRs in a justifiably fair order
14:09 celeron55 it's probably better for general progress that way
14:10 celeron55 gregorycu: plug them in this chat right now, maybe that'll push them forward a bit
14:10 gregorycu #2173 #2224 #2225 #2241 #2242
14:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2173 -- Speed up Profiler::avg by a factor of 10 by gregorycu
14:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2224 -- Fix jumping at node edge by gregorycu
14:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2225 -- Fixes for minetest.get_(all_)craft_recipe(s) by gregorycu
14:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2241 -- Fix for disable_jump group doesnt work on nodeboxes by gregorycu
14:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2242 -- Optimise MapBlockMesh functions by gregorycu
14:11 nrzkt i'll look at this later greg
14:12 gregorycu I should really try to exploit your green eagerness :)
14:12 nrzkt sfan5 are you there ?
14:12 est31 celeron55, like the updates for 2073 ?
14:14 celeron55 est31: it's still fine
14:14 gregorycu I gotta run, it's late, thanks for the chat
14:14 est31 merge, then?
14:14 gregorycu est31: Let's discuss the API improvements again in the near future
14:15 est31 gregorycu, ok
14:15 nrzkt sfan5, can you tell me if #1020 is valid ?
14:15 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1020 -- Whole menu messes up when using Local Install from Mods menu and pressing Cancel
14:16 celeron55 est31: i'll merge it (with a different commit message; it's as much about recommending git as simplifying)
14:23 celeron55 (done)
14:23 est31 thanks :)
14:24 celeron55 i think what i'll say to core devs from now on is "we have closed on average 1 PR per day through our history and we are doing fine; how can you imagine doing worse than that?"
14:25 celeron55 this is the answer to all complaints
14:30 celeron55 i'm a bit unsure about these new core developer rules based on gregorycu's point about it being mostly about trust
14:33 celeron55 i'm going to change these to be more sloppy about activity and be worded a bit differently
14:35 nrzkt what do you think about #1521 ? I test a personnal rebase and it works very well
14:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1521 -- Water surface shader. by RealBadAngel
14:37 nrzkt celeron55 can i close #1228, i override your PR :)
14:37 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1228 -- Move packet creation to a central location (work in progress) by celeron55
14:38 celeron55 feel free to
14:39 nrzkt thanks
14:42 celeron55 i changed the rules like this: https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?p=169838#p169838
14:43 alexxss joined #minetest-dev
14:45 nrzkt very good !
14:49 Zeno` joined #minetest-dev
14:49 CraigyDavi joined #minetest-dev
14:50 Zeno` geez nrzkt :P Calm down
14:50 nrzkt i only answer to old issues ^^
14:50 Zeno` main() (and the_game()) were both refactored before 0.4.11 :P
14:50 nrzkt main.cpp is big now too :(
14:51 Zeno` the actual file is, yes
14:51 nrzkt and it's spaggethis, mamma mia
14:51 Zeno` but the function which used to be 2000 lines long is now... I dunno
14:51 nrzkt okay !
14:52 Zeno` it still needs work though. To get it merged I had to make it "kind of close" to how it used to be
14:52 nrzkt no problem
14:53 Zeno` lol, it's fine
14:53 Zeno` I don't mind old stuff being opened but...
14:53 nrzkt many issues seems to be pertinent, i don't know about most of the issues, but they can be possible :s
14:53 PilzAdam nrzkt, we don't assign people to PRs
14:53 PilzAdam (or issues)
14:54 PilzAdam it looks as if you are saying "nobody is allowed to fix this bug except me"
14:54 nrzkt oh ? i saw some issues assigned to kahrl
14:55 nrzkt okay, i would tell: i'll fix it, don't duplicates work , but if nobody wants, that's ok
14:58 celeron55 the issue assignments are mostly pointing to people who are known to know the subject well to fix it
14:58 nrzkt i see
14:58 nrzkt Zeno`, PilzAdam, agree with #2209 (rebased freshly because network part 1 broke it)
14:58 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2209 -- Little performance improvement: use getPlayer(peer_id) instead of getPlayer(playername) by nerzhul
14:59 Zeno` I can't merge atm
14:59 Zeno` in... errr, don't shoot me... Windows
14:59 nrzkt i can do it, if you agree
15:00 Zeno` here is what main.cpp looked like around the time 957 was opened: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/996ea6​0642c5d78fc915573af0641d78bc7e2d49/src/main.cpp
15:00 Zeno` 2209 is fine
15:00 nrzkt ouch
15:01 nrzkt i understand now :p
15:02 Zeno` but, yeah, it still needs more work
15:03 Zeno` merge 2209 I think
15:03 nrzkt i do it
15:03 Zeno` maybe remove the word ugly :P
15:04 nrzkt already done ^^
15:04 Zeno` xD
15:04 nrzkt Application : Replace getPlayer(playername) by getPlayer(peer_id) in some possible cases. ok @Zeno-
15:04 sfan5 nrzkt: I'm here
15:04 sfan5 (now)
15:04 nrzkt sfan5, can you tell me if #1020 is valid ?
15:04 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1020 -- Whole menu messes up when using Local Install from Mods menu and pressing Cancel
15:05 sfan5 nrzkt: i dunno, it was a bug that happened before we released 0.4.8; the local install option is currently disabled anyway so it's not an issue right now
15:06 nrzkt can i close it ?
15:07 sfan5 i think it would still happen if the "local install" option was enabled
15:07 sfan5 let me test
15:09 sfan5 yup
15:09 sfan5 still happens
15:11 nrzkt hmmm, then the issue is valid
15:17 Zeno` can someone merge #2265 please? c55 has agreed
15:17 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2265 -- Increase MapBlock::actuallyUpdateDayNightDiff() performance by 2-8x by Zeno-
15:17 nrzkt i look at this
15:18 Zeno` thanks. I'd do it myself but I don't want to reboot this close to going to sleep ;)
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15:23 nrzkt done
15:24 est31 comments on #2275?
15:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2275 -- lua_api.txt should have a since field for every function
15:24 nrzkt there isn't any documentation on wiki ?
15:25 est31 http://dev.minetest.net/minetest.forceload_block
15:25 est31 quite alot
15:25 nrzkt it miss the supported version on each call
15:25 est31 then add it to the issue description :)
15:26 est31 as comment*
15:27 est31 what do you mean with call?
15:29 nrzkt api call
15:29 est31 and what do you mean with version steps?
15:30 Zeno` #2261 will need to be squashed I think (if it's to be merged)
15:30 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2261 -- damage_per_second negative number implementation by JakubVanek
15:30 nrzkt cannot be merged, protocol break
15:31 SopaXT joined #minetest-dev
15:31 Zeno` maybe that should be a github label :P
15:31 nrzkt i tagged protocol bump, is this right ?
15:33 Zeno` seems there is no other appropriate label/tag
15:34 nrzkt this commit must wait network rework part 2 and could be merged with network rework part 3, which introduce a massive protocol break
15:34 nrzkt (4-5 incompatible packets)
15:35 est31 protocol break == protocol version increment??
15:36 nrzkt indeed
15:36 nrzkt the actual protocol has some bugs and need some design rework
15:37 Brains nrzkt: I think I'm confused about how the XDG issues (#395 & #864) worked out...  The issues were closed with no PRs but you said something about approving the change in #395.
15:37 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/864 -- XDG Base Directory Specs
15:37 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/395 -- Config file on XDG dir on Linux
15:37 Zeno` it's not a very good label IMO. Protocol bump does not necessarily mean backward compatibility will break
15:37 nrzkt Brains duplicates
15:38 nrzkt i keep 864 because it's more recent and the discussion have more elements
15:38 nrzkt has*
15:38 Zeno` I think it needs to be made clear "older clients will not work"
15:38 nrzkt "protocol break" tag  ?
15:38 celeron55 that pull request doesn't need a brotocol break, it's just what will probably happen soon enough for it to be simply included in it
15:38 hmmmm before reverse compatibility is broken, we need to see this commit to assess whether it's worth it
15:38 Brains nrzkt: I see my mistake, I thought 864 was closed.  Nevermind me...  Sorry.
15:39 nrzkt Brains: no problem
15:39 hmmmm and I completely veto using TCP
15:39 nrzkt then, rewrite all network.
15:40 celeron55 i suggest nobody vetoes TCP until they have actually tested how well it works
15:40 celeron55 at least that is what i will personally do
15:40 nrzkt we can use both TCP and UDP if this could satisfy any. TCP for security and UDP for packet we don't care.
15:40 nrzkt but stop invent TCP over UDP.
15:40 Zeno` it needs to be labeled that it will break older clients though... surely
15:40 hmmmm I used to be in the camp that tcp could be mixed in with the protocol into parts latency-agnostic bits but I changed my stance since I feel that rUDP could be made better by simply improving what is already there
15:40 est31 security is uncoupled from tcp vs udp
15:40 hmmmm forget about that
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15:40 hmmmm there's one major difference here:
15:41 est31 you can also encrypt udp
15:41 celeron55 Zeno`: it can't be done in the way the pull request wants to; if it would be included before the break, then it would have to be modified to add the field in a backwards-compatible manner
15:41 hmmmm tcp blocks all packets from being handled until it receives every single one needed to be in order
15:41 nrzkt i don't talk about security of the transmission but reliability
15:41 celeron55 Zeno`: i think that should be just commented to it, i'll go and do that
15:41 est31 ah
15:41 Zeno` yeah, ok a comment would be good enough
15:41 nrzkt hmmmm: only media information will come with multiple packets. Other uses only one packet
15:41 Zeno` just *something* so it's obvious
15:42 hmmmm nrzkt:  but media is downloaded using cURL.  that already uses TCP
15:42 hmmmm what's the point then??
15:42 nrzkt TCP is better for handling sessions and reliability of the transmission
15:42 nrzkt 85% of MT packets are reliable.
15:44 nrzkt MT is not a FPS, it's like a RPG. World of Warcraft uses TCP by default and doesn't have any problem with latency.
15:44 celeron55 the HTTP media server is a hack that shouldn't be needed at all
15:44 celeron55 ideally it should be removed when it isn't needed anymore
15:44 hmmmm as to your first point.  that's true, but so what?  how is that any better at all than minetest's reliable udp implementation
15:45 hmmmm second, I'm sure they are mostly reliable.  but they can still be latency-critical
15:45 nrzkt MT reliable UDP implementation is like spaghettis
15:45 nrzkt many threads, queues, locks.
15:45 hmmmm then fix the implementation instead of introducing an incredible amount of latency
15:45 nrzkt no latency with TCP. Please stop using a satellite for playing
15:45 hmmmm latency is a huge concern
15:46 hmmmm yes, there IS latency with TCP that's not necessary.
15:46 hmmmm it's real, it exists, and it could be potentially horrible.
15:46 hmmmm I vote unconditionally against TCP.
15:46 nrzkt as i said, 85% from MT are reliable. Then they are using a TCP like implementation
15:46 hmmmm holy shit I said already
15:46 hmmmm minetest's reliable UDP does not have all the same characteristics as TCP does
15:47 hmmmm I'm not going to repeat myself any more
15:47 Vexyl I thought mixing TCP and UDP was generally a horrible idea.
15:47 celeron55 yeah it's probably worse in pretty much all aspects
15:47 nrzkt now, wait for my implementation, test it and say what you want.
15:47 celeron55 minetest's reliable UDP implementation that is
15:47 hmmmm if it's so horrible, I'd rather learn what makes it horrible, and fix that
15:47 hmmmm as of right now it has a clear advantage over TCP in terms of latency
15:47 celeron55 the only way to make it actually work is to switch to enet
15:47 hmmmm and enet is udp based
15:47 hmmmm so what's your point
15:48 celeron55 yes; it's the competent rudp implementation if such is wanted
15:48 celeron55 we shouldn't make it ourselves
15:48 nrzkt ofc. Let the OS properly do what he knows doing.
15:48 kilbith sapier told me in PM that enet is the 2nd faster solution behind a custom TCP, for info
15:49 celeron55 nrzkt: for your own sanity, you should probably just ignore hmmmm though
15:49 hmmmm I remember sapier did have a patch in his own branch that adds enet support
15:49 celeron55 otherwise you'll get brain cancer or something if you disagree with him
15:49 hmmmm but this is all ridiculous
15:49 hmmmm instead of just saying "nope.  we can't do it" let's figure out how they do it and see if we can't do the same
15:49 nrzkt in fact sapier implementation uses the current design, and we need to rework all the stack
15:49 celeron55 sapier also has a tcp+udp implementation which is close to what nrzkt is going to do
15:49 celeron55 and he didn't report any considerable issues with it
15:50 Brains Make the appropriate interface, swap out netcode underneath it, and let history decide.  *shrug*
15:50 est31 swappable ... neat
15:50 celeron55 that interface already exists, sapier made it a year ago for the exact purpose of figuring out what we should actually used underneath it
15:51 celeron55 actually use*
15:51 nrzkt the protocol change isn't today, it will be in the PR in 2 or 3 weeks, i need to properly change clientiface.cpp and use the new native connection
15:51 JakubVanek_ oh i feel bit stupid with my coding style fixes
15:51 celeron55 and he also reworked the udp-only implementation to work with that interface, which is frankly an overcomplicated mess but it's there anyway currently
15:51 hmmmm if the underlying problem with reliable UDP is something in the protocol that fixing would ruin backwards compatibility, then I can understand the case for using enet
15:51 nrzkt JakubVanek_: don't forget to rebase your commits
15:52 Brains celeron55: You wouldn't happen to have a link to some docs or anything on that handy?  Now I'm curious.
15:52 hmmmm but has anybody actually done this research?
15:52 celeron55 hmmmm: well i personally designed the protocol years ago and i can confirm it's very crappy
15:52 hmmmm because it sounds to me like a lot of changes in minetest are being done for the sake of change based off of somebody's prejudices, not necessarily making it better
15:52 nrzkt in fact you can trash backward compat because there are many issues on the protocol which need a break
15:53 hmmmm such as.....
15:53 hmmmm come on, I can't do this right now, I have work...
15:53 nrzkt using wrong types into packets
15:53 nrzkt go work instead of trolling without testing...
15:53 celeron55 hmmmm: go away then, you're not making any progress happen with this discussion
15:54 nrzkt or using two differents string serializations (one isn't a huge cost)
15:54 nrzkt or pass some strings as simple char[X] without serialize
15:55 hmmmm an opinion you disagree with isn't trolling
15:55 hmmmm I don't quite understand how what I'm saying is stupid
15:55 celeron55 trolling is a completely incorrect term for that but the point is clear
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15:55 nrzkt in fact this isn't an opinion problem, i read the networking code. Did you ?
15:55 hmmmm all I'm suggesting is that actual research is done before knee-jerk large codebase changes are made
15:56 nrzkt it's a codebase change ! network is important
15:56 hmmmm and right now it seems like it hasn't
15:56 luizrpgluiz hi
15:56 nrzkt hmmmm: please release 0.4.12
15:56 celeron55 hmmmm: nobody is going to listen to you because you haven't researched it either; hoever we will gladly listen to eg. sapier if he comes aroun
15:56 hmmmm luzrpgluiz:  do you actually say anything other than 'hi'?
15:56 celeron55 around*
15:56 celeron55 however*
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15:56 hmmmm celeron, that is so nonsensical
15:57 hmmmm so unless I take on the full burden of doing all the work that should've been done beforehand, we should allow changes to get added willy nilly
15:57 hmmmm okay I have an idea.
15:57 hmmmm we should blank out all of the source files in the entire project.
15:57 celeron55 this is actually beyond ridiculous, lol
15:57 hmmmm this will improve code organization and optimize execution time.
15:58 Wayward_One Zeno`, yes, i've tested using /status as well
15:58 celeron55 hmmmm: if nrzkt is ready to rework the entire thing, he's not taking anything away from you
15:58 luizrpgluiz all, which will have the new version of minetest? there will be changes in the engine?
15:58 celeron55 and he does have experience on the subject
15:59 celeron55 and the end result will be reviewed before it'll touch upstream
15:59 hmmmm celeron55:  and I'm not saying that I am going to stop him
15:59 celeron55 there's nothing to worry about
15:59 hmmmm yes there is
15:59 hmmmm it'll get shoved into upstream without so much as a second thought
15:59 hmmmm "tested it on my server for 2 weeks, can't see any problems!  let's add it!"
15:59 nrzkt it's why my commits are separated PR's
15:59 nrzkt in fact network is simple to test
16:00 nrzkt send one packet of each type, if each part handle it properly it works.
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16:01 luizrpgluiz I wanted to be part of the beta test to test new versions of the game before officially launch
16:01 celeron55 hmmmm: what kind of data do you think should be gotten before deciding to do it, then?
16:02 nrzkt and also, for compat, i tested all the cases: legacy client with current server, legacy server with current client and current with current. Then i'll send the PR, wait the review of unpartial persons
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16:05 nrzkt it seems that #2164 is ready, everybody agrees ?
16:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2164 -- Fix FTBFS on GNU/Hurd platform by apoleon
16:05 est31 ~protect
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16:06 est31 aw sorry
16:06 est31 wrong # channel :(
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16:09 Zeno` hang on. So legacy clients will still be able to connect to servers with the new "protocol"?
16:09 Zeno` and vice versa?
16:09 nrzkt no
16:09 nrzkt it's impossible
16:09 celeron55 nrzkt is working on many layers, one at a time
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16:10 Zeno` I know... just confused about the comment:
16:10 nrzkt but Patch 2/4 don't
16:10 Zeno` nrzkt> and also, for compat, i tested all the cases: legacy client with current server, legacy server with current client and current with current. Then i'll send the PR, wait the review of unpartial persons
16:10 nrzkt i talk about Patch 1/4 and 2/4
16:10 nrzkt no compat break here
16:10 Zeno` yep
16:11 celeron55 nrzkt: can you explain here when and for what purpose on what layer you plan on breaking compatibility on?
16:11 celeron55 i mean, this should be made perfectly clear to everyone
16:11 celeron55 so that people can comment properly to begin with
16:12 Brains Could it be pasted to github/forum/wiki/something so that those of us not present can see as well?
16:12 nrzkt okay,
16:12 nrzkt the first part of the breakage was here
16:12 nrzkt https://github.com/nerzhul/minetest/commit​/ad85f1c9ecc45cb39a7eada6c2fb5b179131648f
16:13 nrzkt This cleanup the API, removing static char copy into packets. And _INIT packet is modified.
16:13 nrzkt This also remove some old interfaces to use NetworkPacket in a lower layer (connection.cpp)
16:14 nrzkt This break the AccessDenied packet, using an ID instead of a string, this permit to use intl on client for server auth messages, but i kept LUA API compat with a special type SERVER_ACCESSDENIED_CUSTOM_STRING
16:15 nrzkt it also fix DeleteParticleSpawner, the server currently send a U16 whereas it's a U32...
16:16 nrzkt this is the first part of this PR, but i think i'll add a breakage on string serialization in the packet
16:16 nrzkt at this time, we have : *pkt << std::string and pkt->putLongString
16:17 nrzkt the only difference between those two types of string is the length. First: u16, second u32
16:17 nrzkt using a u32 for all strings permit to use *pkt << std::string and remove putLongString
16:18 nrzkt then it's all for the third PR. But as JakubVanek_ point, the _damage packet is also wrong and need to be fixed fix a larger modification
16:18 nrzkt fixing*
16:18 hmmmm celeron55, I reckon it'd be useful to know... 1). min/median/max and average RTT, packet overhead, throughput for the current implementation, TCP implementation, and an enet implementation
16:19 nrzkt hmmmm: i agree
16:19 hmmmm 2). I'd like to directly compare enet's protocol vs. minetest's reliable udp protocol and find what differences between the two make the most difference in metrics and why
16:19 nrzkt RTT is lost with pure TCP because we don't know each packet, we know a transaction
16:20 hmmmm 3). I'd like to know if the increased latency in TCP negatively affects actual game experience
16:20 nrzkt and MT doesn't need a 1Gbps bandwidth with 0.0001ms of latency
16:21 nrzkt i agree with the third point too
16:21 nrzkt but TCP will not add 10sec of latency
16:21 hmmmm you don't need to add 10 seconds of latency to negatievly impact the end user's experience
16:22 hmmmm negatively
16:22 nrzkt i know :)
16:22 hmmmm it could be as low as a half second even
16:22 nrzkt tcp doesn't take 0.5sec latency
16:22 hmmmm and half second latencies with TCP are not uncommon, because a packet got corrupted in transmission and so ALL network stops during that time until an unbroken packet is actually received
16:23 hmmmm there is absolutely no functional need for ordering with minetest's protocol
16:24 celeron55 there are two potential places for breaking network compatibility: 1) at the packet level, i.e. making L6 packets sane by not using weird formats and versioning conventions for things all over thte place, 2) at the low level; this is where the rUDP/TCP/enet talk happens
16:24 hmmmm sapier added enet without breaking the current implementation in his branch
16:25 celeron55 (2) doesn't necessarily have to break anything; different protocols can exist there
16:25 hmmmm of course
16:26 hmmmm for what it's worth, I have no issues with removing backwards compatibility seeing as how we're coming up against a major release next
16:26 fireglow I would also be great if minetestserver could use more than one listener
16:26 celeron55 but (1) is quite fundamental to the design of the program; making it sane will help avoiding future compatibility issues and help developers not pulling their hair out on updates that could be trivial
16:27 celeron55 nrzkt: is this in line with what you have planned?
16:31 celeron55 if this isn't, then i too might disagree with the plans
16:32 nrzkt in fact hmmmm the problem is not the protocol itself, it's all the implementation
16:32 nrzkt its enet implementation integrates properly with current connection.cpp
16:32 hmmmm which layer of the protocol are we talking about
16:32 nrzkt 4->6
16:32 hmmmm fireglow, binding to multiple ports you mean?
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16:33 hmmmm sounds like a feature request, you can add that as an issue on the github page
16:34 celeron55 really what makes most sense to me is to first go after all the weird L6 formats and make the thing allow robustly adding more features, and then go after L4, attempting to finally choose whether the existing rudp, enet or tcp or tcp+udp works best
16:34 nrzkt for the (1), i must say: wait. The layer rework isn't done, i have broke current working connection between client and server to rework on socket and client handling. Packet reading will be ready soon
16:34 hmmmm I think you guys (actually, celeron mostly) are unreasonably angry with my request that the utility and impact of changes to code be researched first before actually committing it
16:35 celeron55 you started unreasonably angry too so it's now a tie
16:35 hmmmm I don't go around making major changes to core data structures without hard data to back it up, and before making every attempt possible to fix the current implementation
16:35 nrzkt for my PR, patch 1,2,3 doesn't break the layer 4->6. wait the patch 4 before decide something.
16:36 nrzkt the current implementation is complete but hard. The TCP implementation i'll write will be very very simple, with a SessionManager to handle clients and will be very pretty and little
16:37 nrzkt in fact i tried to add TCP wrapper into current implementation but it was very very hard to add and a complete rework make it simpler, because current implementation is done for UDP, not for TCP and many things will slow TCP connection without interest
16:38 celeron55 you'll want to make it something that is able to work with enet too; otherwise we can't compare anything properly
16:38 nrzkt i think it's possible. But i need to finish SessionManager before
16:39 celeron55 that might get weird though
16:40 nrzkt and i think we need to compare current implementation between current implementation with enet (like sapier does) with the rewritten implementation with pure TCP
16:40 celeron55 enet probably is something like what the current implementation would be if it was improved infinitely
16:41 celeron55 performance-wise
16:41 nrzkt ofc
16:42 nrzkt i need to go back home, see you
16:43 nrzkt #1188 need a review
16:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1188 -- getTime refactoring by Selat
16:48 celeron55 Brains: i do not think it was documented outside of the code itself
16:51 celeron55 Brains: https://github.com/sapier/minetest/commit​/bbc8195950b114c77794d801c74a6887c1c44d95
16:52 celeron55 https://github.com/sapier/minete​st/commits/network_addon_enet_6 https://github.com/sapier/minet​est/commits/network_addon_tcp_2
16:52 celeron55 these give some idea on it
16:54 celeron55 frankly it's not really a plugin layer of any kind, but it's possible to add other protocols to it
16:54 celeron55 unlike previously
16:56 celeron55 that stuff isn't very pretty though because it closely follows the original MT-rUDP's interfafce
16:56 celeron55 interface*
17:00 JakubVanek_ these two PR are duplicates: #2183 #2071, i would prefer the ngosang's #2183 rather than mine. what do you think?
17:00 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2183 -- Fix Download complete dialog in the mods store by ngosang
17:00 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2071 -- Remove last installed mods name concatenation by JakubVanek
17:00 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2183 -- Fix Download complete dialog in the mods store by ngosang
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17:53 nrzkt ofc celeron, an intermediate layer is required. I'll think about it
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19:10 MattJ Couldn't figure out why the multispawn mod wasn't working for me
19:10 MattJ I traced it down to fields.quit == "true" when the form fields are received from the client
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19:10 MattJ It uses button_exit to submit the form, should quit == true?
19:21 nrzkt i think about project, why not using compiled libraires instead of compiling twice and not sharing compiled code ?
19:22 nrzkt it would be great to add for example a sharedlib which contains common utils
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19:57 nrzkt sfan5: wget: unable to resolve host address `sfan5.pf-control.de' on travis
19:57 nrzkt can you fix it ?
19:57 nrzkt it break windows builds on travis
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20:02 sfan5 nrzkt: works for me
20:15 nrzkt can you relaunch https://travis-ci.org/minete​st/minetest/builds/50239329 for my pr ? :)
20:16 nrzkt oh, i can do it myself by signing with github
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21:11 nrzkt If some developper have time, i moved ClientLauncher and InputHandlers from main.cpp to dedidated .cpp and .h, and also cleanup useless includes. PR #2277
21:11 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2277 -- Main.cpp cleanup: Move ClientLauncher and InputHandlers to dedicated files by nerzhul
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22:23 * Tesseract throws #1606 on the table now that 0.5 is coming up.
22:23 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1606 -- Add mod security by ShadowNinja
22:25 Tesseract Also, #1943 is high-prio since I know of a practical (easy) remote code execution exploit related to it.
22:25 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1943 -- Improve client authentication
22:27 est31 case insensitivity, whos on windows :)
22:31 Tesseract est31: It makes sense for usernames.  And AFAIK only one core dev uses Windows, and he's been MIA for a while.
22:33 Calinou aka. BlockMen
22:34 est31 I dont think the main issue that its SHA-1, the problem is this replay vuln.
22:34 est31 there is no known practical 2nd preimage attack for sha-1
22:34 est31 but yes a very serious issue
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22:46 est31 guess you knew that just didnt want to mention it :)
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