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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-02-01

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Time Nick Message
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01:43 gregorycu Is there anything I can do to assist with the release?
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01:44 gregorycu (Possible resend) Is there anything I can do to assist with the release?
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01:58 gregorycu T4im: So I was thinking
01:58 gregorycu How about we actually make a proper deregister function
02:03 T4im sounds good :)
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02:36 gregorycu It's pretty bad that get_craft_recipe returns nullifying recepies
02:36 gregorycu est31: My good man, are you around?
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02:48 gregorycu bool sneak_node_found = (min_distance_f < 100000.0*BS*0.9);
02:48 gregorycu Sweed Jesus
02:48 gregorycu Sweet
02:49 acerspyro #foreveralone
02:50 gregorycu BS is 10
02:50 gregorycu I don't even...
02:53 gregorycu I found another sneaking-related bug. Hooray.
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03:01 kahrl what's the bug?
03:01 kahrl gregorycu: ^
03:02 gregorycu I think this may be a manifestation of an existing bug
03:02 gregorycu When you sneak on a slab, or a non-full node, sneaking behaves strangely
03:02 kahrl yeah, that's a known bug
03:02 kahrl the sneak code has to my knowledge never been adapted to work with nodeboxes
03:03 gregorycu It has caused #1551
03:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1551 -- disable_jump group doesnt work on nodeboxes
03:04 gregorycu Maybe I can make sneaking work a little better
03:06 kahrl the whole local player physics need some rework, imho
03:06 kahrl but if you can fix just the sneaking that would already be great too
03:06 gregorycu It stores a node the player is sneaking on
03:07 gregorycu It should probably store a sneaking height too
03:07 gregorycu But yeah, I don't want to do a massive rework :(
03:07 gregorycu I'll try and fix this bug without changing too much
03:07 acerspyro gregorycu: Noone does
03:07 acerspyro This is doomed. :3
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05:30 gregorycu Sneaking is a bit of a basketcase
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06:37 hmmmm alright
06:37 hmmmm I think this will be the first release to use minidumps
06:37 hmmmm THING IS...
06:38 hmmmm you need symbols created alongside the executable built
06:38 hmmmm so for consistency I'm putting up Windows Server 2008 R2 x64 and x86 VMs that everybody will use to build the windows targets
06:39 hmmmm I'll have to figure out some way of distributing access to the build machine
06:39 hmmmm the Official(tm) build machine
06:40 hmmmm this also helps streamline the build process so there will always be the correct resources available when doing a release
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07:08 hmmmm what's up with https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2095  ?
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08:45 Topic for #minetest-dev is now **FEATURE FREEZE FOR 0.4.12** **TENATIVE RELEASE DATE: 2015-01-30** Minetest core development and maintenance. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/
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11:33 gregorycu It seems the player takes damage, even while dead
11:33 gregorycu Is that a design decision?
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12:39 Krock gregorycu, how is that bad? someone can be dead but it's still possible to destroy the body
12:40 gregorycu I'm looking at #81
12:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/81 -- dying on lava causes repeated death, if respawn location isnt quickly updated
12:40 gregorycu I want to try and kill some really old bugs
12:41 gregorycu Anyway, the damage is client side, so every second the client sends "I got damaged"
12:41 gregorycu Even while dead
12:41 gregorycu The problem is, if there is any message queuing on the server or client, the server respawns the player, and then processes the "I got damaged" messages from when the player was dead
12:41 gregorycu And kills the player again
12:42 Krock oh. I know that problem
12:42 Krock also teleport has it
12:42 gregorycu So, I'm just trying to determine what behaviours I am not allowed to change, basically
12:43 Krock the soulation for this is to attach an invisible entity to the player, so it can't move anymore and then teleport
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12:45 gregorycu How does that solve the damage problem?
12:45 gregorycu_ lol
12:45 gregorycu_ I just got my own message
12:46 Krock lol
12:47 gregorycu_ Fucked if I know how that happened, anyway
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13:03 gregorycu Well, by disabling after-death damage, I have fixed this...
13:04 gregorycu Not saying this is the answer, just saying this is a possible solution
13:05 nore sfan5, what about game#415, game#413, game#418 ?
13:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/415 -- Optimize Sam II + textures by kilbith2
13:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/413 -- Make books writable by ShadowNinja
13:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/418 -- Add reverse recipes for hoes while keeping def.recipe compatibility by MT-Modder
13:06 gregorycu What are reverse recipes?
13:06 sfan5 nore: #415 removes the alternate vessel textures
13:06 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/415 -- Add multiple nodeboxes for "wallmounted" drawtype
13:07 kilbith sfan5: really needed ?
13:07 sfan5 kilbith: yes
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13:08 sfan5 nore: 413 is probably ok, 418 is ok
13:08 kilbith for ?
13:09 kilbith sfan5: why ?
13:09 sfan5 if someone wants to use those alternate textures
13:10 kilbith haha, so why not propose alternative textures for the whole game then ?
13:12 kilbith sfan5 ^
13:12 sfan5 because thats what texture packs are for
13:12 kilbith ??
13:12 sfan5 ??
13:12 gregorycu ??
13:13 gregorycu Goodnight all
13:14 kilbith this is ridiculous, you want to propose alternative for the vessels, but the principle stops at it
13:14 kilbith for somewhat reason
13:14 sfan5 it does not make sense to have seperate texture pack somewhere where nobody will find it for 3 textures
13:14 sfan5 just leave the files alone
13:15 kilbith eh, the vessels textures are findable in all TP
13:16 kilbith i just don't understand why especially those 3 textures needs an alternative
13:16 kilbith that nobody uses anyways
13:16 sfan5 [citation needed]
13:16 kilbith the new ones received a positive unanimity
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13:17 kilbith i don't need to bring a citation, i just wander on the server, unlike you
13:17 kilbith servers*
13:20 sfan5 who said it's a public server that uses these?
13:21 kilbith it was an example
13:21 kilbith this logic is obscure to me
13:22 kilbith it seems more an 'historical conservatism'
13:31 nrzkt bon bah moi de mon côté je crois bien que j'ai fait le maximum en terme d'opti sur l'interaction avec ma couche
13:31 nrzkt le PR est prêt
13:31 nrzkt après faut passer au cassage de couche et de protocoles
13:32 kilbith tu t'es gourré d'onglet je crois
13:32 Krock Please switch to english or talk in ##minetest-fr
13:32 kilbith Krock, just a confusion
13:32 nrzkt oops sorry :p
13:32 nrzkt Don't be evil Krock ^^
13:32 kilbith and it's #minetest-fr
13:34 Krock sfan5, would you be so nice and update the topic, so it's a realistic release date?
13:34 Krock btw, it's TENTATIVE, not TENATIVE
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16:39 nrzkt #2243 must be merged before release. Big security fix
16:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2243 -- Security Fix: Empty the password after sending it to server by nerzhul
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16:40 kilbith ^ blocker
16:40 nrzkt please add blocker tag or merge it :)
16:42 sfan5 huh, what?
16:43 nrzkt open your browser and look at the issue.
16:43 sfan5 i did
16:43 sfan5 are you saying that it's bad to have the password in memory?
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16:44 crazyR is it sent plain text or hashed?
16:44 sfan5 hashed
16:44 nrzkt i say password stay in memory whereas it's only used in this packet and stay in memory
16:44 nrzkt and the hash is sufficient to create a working connection to server.
16:44 crazyR if its hashed then it makes no diffrence
16:45 crazyR if it can be obtained from memory then it can be ready from file
16:45 nrzkt because i create a custom minetest and paste the hash, not hashing it and sending it to server and it accept.
16:45 sfan5 this issue doesn't fit it though
16:45 crazyR or do you mean client side?
16:45 sfan5 fix that*
16:45 nrzkt client side, not server side
16:45 sfan5 crazyR: how?
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16:47 sfan5 nrzkt: about every application keeps passwords and user data in memory
16:47 crazyR sfan5: what i was saying before i realised nrzkt meant client side is that if "something" could read the password from meomory then it could read it from the auth file. but seen as its hashed in memory that would make no diffrence..
16:47 sfan5 why would minetest not?
16:48 nrzkt it's not because some stupid developer do it you must do it
16:48 sfan5 protecting the user is not a valid argument; if someone has access to the machine minetest runs on it's game over, there is nothing left to protect
16:48 nrzkt your argument is stupid
16:48 sfan5 someone wanting the password could also just swap the minetest executable with one that logs passwords
16:49 sfan5 <nrzkt> your argument is stupid
16:49 crazyR sfan thast exactly what i was saying
16:49 sfan5 it might be
16:49 sfan5 but you did not even provide an argument
16:49 sfan5 you just said "you must do it"
16:49 nrzkt if i load a random binary in memory by bypassing your browser sandbox and read the password in memory, i can obtain every minetest in the world.
16:49 crazyR but... i agree with nrzkt if all apps do it that doesnt me we should do it if we have a way to stop prevent it
16:49 nrzkt every minetest password and connect to server.
16:50 sfan5 how does this fix it?
16:50 nrzkt the fix is very little, increasing security.
16:50 sfan5 if you got code running you can use one of the hundred other ways of getting the password
16:50 nrzkt it replace the string in memory, then no password in memory. If you havent looked at my PR please look at it.
16:50 crazyR nrzkt  if its client side how could it read every password in the world?
16:50 sfan5 i have looked at the PR
16:51 nrzkt i mean, if i craft a special webpage, tell many minetest users to go it, then they connect, using an exploit i access to user memory on the machine and get the password
16:51 sfan5 yes
16:51 sfan5 how does your issue prevent that?
16:51 sfan5 you could also use other ways to get the password
16:51 nrzkt it clear the password after it was used.
16:51 crazyR ahh i see
16:51 nrzkt it's the only code path where it's used.
16:51 sfan5 s/issue/PR/
16:52 nrzkt take glasses instead of directory please
16:52 sfan5 what?
16:53 sfan5 your pull fixes 1 of many ways to get to the password
16:53 sfan5 it doesn't improve security significantly
16:53 crazyR but fixing 1 is better than fixing non
16:53 sfan5 correct
16:53 sfan5 but no other application does this?
16:53 sfan5 s/?//
16:54 nrzkt we don't care about other applications
16:54 est31 other applications do this too
16:54 nrzkt we are talking about minetest.
16:54 sfan5 ..because it's not worth removing the password from memory
16:54 nrzkt and other applications are right coded.
16:54 sfan5 est31: link please?
16:54 est31 and yes eg lua code stores the password to
16:54 est31 o
16:54 est31 sfan5: ok wait please
16:55 nrzkt don't look at other, look at your code men. It's not because we have many doors opened we let all opened instead of closing one.
16:56 nrzkt and please think about user, not invalid arguments like many devs do.
16:56 nrzkt don't be ubisoft
16:57 crazyR i think if it closes a potential security issue - no matter how small and insignificant and the fix does not affect game play or stability. then is should be merged. might not be significant now but its possible future changes could make it significant then
16:57 sfan5 nrzkt: why should we bother with it when no other program does this?
16:58 nrzkt i think you only work on shit problem which doesn't care about security.
16:58 nrzkt shit programs*
16:58 crazyR sfan5: all my nabours leave there front door unlocked... should i do it?
16:58 sfan5 nrzkt: being rude does not get your PR merged faster
16:58 nrzkt ofc
16:59 sfan5 crazyR: that analogy does not fit, it's more like having their keys in their house when you're already in
16:59 nrzkt but i tell what i think, so rude i am, but the problem was here, i found it and you prefer lost time to dialog instead of fixing the problem.
16:59 crazyR why does it not fit. you siad that all other apps do it so we should
16:59 crazyR its the asame thing as me leaving my door unlocked because my nabout does
17:00 sfan5 crazyR: no, it's not
17:00 crazyR lmao
17:00 sfan5 leaving the front door unlocked would be having the clear text password stored somewhere where everyone can access it
17:00 sfan5 crazyR: also i said that every other program does _not_ do it
17:01 crazyR same diffrence they dont do it so we dont do it.. il reverse it for you so its easier to understand: my nabout does not lock his door. so i should not lock my door?  better?
17:02 nrzkt the fix the other ways too sfan5 instead of searching the beast. Everybody will be happy
17:02 nrzkt then*
17:02 sfan5 nrzkt: there are infinite other ways
17:02 sfan5 nrzkt: such as replacing the executable, how do we fix that?
17:02 nrzkt no.
17:02 nrzkt they are finite, it's a program.
17:02 crazyR yes but fixing one way is better than not fixing any way
17:03 nrzkt i don't patch a replaced executable because i don't patch it.
17:03 Krock So, I've got a really annoying bug. Whenever I play on my server (via local network), then it takes 5 - 30 minutes and the wireless network collapses
17:03 sfan5 crazyR: i already said that the unlocked door analogy is not good
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17:03 nrzkt you're not good.
17:03 Krock this didn't happen some months ago and I hope this can be fionxed soon, so I can play on my own server again
17:04 sfan5 again: insulting me does not get your PR merged faster
17:04 Krock *fixed
17:04 nrzkt #2243 must be merged because it fix ONE security issue, not all, YES, but one is better than ZERO
17:04 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2243 -- Security Fix: Empty the password after sending it to server by nerzhul
17:04 sfan5 Krock: do the packets go to your router?
17:04 crazyR sfan if you are going to use the reason "other apps dont do it so we wont" then is the same and is well suited
17:04 sfan5 Krock: (before going to the mt server)
17:04 Krock sfan5, yup, there's no other way
17:04 sfan5 Krock: well.. if you were playing on 127.0.0.1 they wouldn't exit your machine
17:04 sfan5 Krock: in that case your router probably has problems with udp
17:05 Krock sfan5, as already said. It worked fine some months ago. I've build weeks on that server, mostly with over 10 people online
17:05 sfan5 Krock: was your router updated in that time?
17:06 Krock there was no update
17:06 sfan5 no idea then
17:06 sfan5 crazyR: other applications don't do this for a reason, doing that does not prevent other people from getting your password; it's not worth to do this
17:10 crazyR lol sfan5 its this sort of attitude that caused heartbleed and others. granted this is in no way even a fraction a severe... yet. but the fact that all it takes is a website designed to make use of this means that an attacker wouldnt even need to have access to the pc itself.
17:10 sfan5 lolwat
17:11 sfan5 heartbleed was caused by an oversight
17:11 sfan5 now by a developer not accepting pointless fixes
17:11 sfan5 not*
17:11 sfan5 crazyR: also it's not "simply a website" to access some memory in a different process
17:11 Krock nrzkt, how about setting it to "null" or some foobar text?
17:11 sfan5 you don't simply bypass aslr, dep and browser sandboxes
17:13 crazyR nrzkt just clearly siad that he can obtain the password from memory using a website, yes?   so by not merging this fix you are turning this into a oversight. and ok i understadn a website couldnt do it that easy. so how about an amazing new toolbar extention for a browser that is advertised targeted towards minetest platyers.
17:14 sfan5 crazyR: don't say anything before you understood how exploitation works
17:15 sfan5 crazyR: a browser toolbar can't just read the memory of a different process either
17:15 nrzkt on windows it's easiest than UNIX, yes
17:16 sfan5 nrzkt: please tell me which browser allows toolbars to read other processes memory
17:16 nrzkt IE ?
17:17 sfan5 who uses IE?
17:17 nrzkt because their sandbox suxes
17:17 nrzkt windows users
17:17 crazyR lmao
17:17 Krock programs which read other's memory is a type of a spy-virus or whatever. antivirus does not like those
17:17 nrzkt and maybe some minetest users
17:17 est31 Its not just about reading other processes' memory, its also about reading the memory of already closed processes.
17:17 est31 thats far more easier
17:17 crazyR who  uses ie? seriously
17:17 hmmmm i don't see malware scanning process memory for minetest passwords... i'm sorry
17:17 est31 just make the process allocate everything it gets and then search for minetest structures
17:18 hmmmm minetest is not that important it's a god damn game
17:18 hmmmm and that patch doesn't even accomplish what it supposedly does
17:18 sfan5 est31: how do you read memory from exited processes?
17:18 nrzkt no, but somes can set a common password between minetest and websites, and hash could be cracked, because it's open source, using rainbow tables.
17:18 Krock I could understand this problem if we had global usernames and passwords but currently we shouldn't make trouble for nothing
17:19 est31 sfan5:  by allocating it without writing to it
17:19 hmmmm nobody uses a common password
17:19 est31 when they close, its freed
17:19 hmmmm all my minetest server passwords are "asdf"
17:19 est31 so you just need to convince the OS that you need the memory
17:19 crazyR hmmmm actually most "average" users do use a common pasword
17:19 hmmmm it's a game and it just doesn't matter.  the password is necessary but nobody cares
17:19 sfan5 est31: doesn't the kernel zero newly allocated memory
17:19 sfan5 ?
17:19 hmmmm because it's JUST  A  GAME
17:20 est31 not that I knew
17:20 hmmmm in any case
17:20 nrzkt just a game doesn't mean, do stupid code
17:20 nrzkt it's not EA or ubisoft :p
17:20 hmmmm provide me a patch that actually clears the password memory and I'll accept it
17:20 nrzkt we need a custom allocator, then ^^
17:20 sfan5 est31: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library​/windows/desktop/aa366887(v=vs.85).aspx "Memory allocated by this function is automatically initialized to zero"
17:20 nrzkt because std::string sucks a little for that
17:21 sfan5 est31: same for all other functions
17:21 est31 reading this http://stackoverflow.com/questio​ns/6004816/kernel-zeroes-memory
17:21 Calinou <+sfan5> who uses IE?
17:21 est31 you seem to be right
17:21 Calinou 25-40 % of the Internet
17:21 Calinou that is gigantic
17:21 hmmmm the kernel zeroing memory hides a lot of bugs
17:21 sfan5 est31: thats for linux though
17:21 Calinou if you like sarcasm about IE, then you might enjoy sarcasm about Firefox…
17:22 hmmmm the majority of drivers i suspect never set Irp->IoStatus->Information = 0; before completing an irp
17:22 hmmmm but they're OK because the kernel zeros out all the data structures
17:22 sfan5 you read driver source code, hmmmm?
17:22 hmmmm I write drivers for my day job
17:23 sfan5 i see
17:25 hmmmm lol there was this one bug
17:25 kahrl fwiw, I tend to agree that the password should be cleared (not so much because someone could read the process memory, if that happens you're already fucked, but because I've seen several backtraces with hashed passwords included)
17:25 kahrl but # 2243 is not the right way to do it
17:26 nrzkt ofc, std::string sucks ... i looked at this
17:26 hmmmm some guy was writing back a result to UserMemory in a DO_BUFFERED ioctl
17:26 nrzkt a custom allocator is needed
17:26 hmmmm and he never set the information
17:26 hmmmm so the KernelBuffer result was never written back and no bug was ever found
17:26 hmmmm but the driver kept overwriting random processses' memory
17:26 sfan5 ow
17:27 hmmmm i think allocated memory should be set to something like 0xCC instead
17:54 celeron55 i actually have a custom allocator wrapper in buildat on linux that absolutely always clears memory with patterns: https://github.com/celeron55/builda​t/blob/master/src/boot/linux/cmem.c
17:55 celeron55 i became a bit worried and fed up with memory problems especially as that thing uses a lua sandbox that runs code coming from the server 8)
17:57 celeron55 also, the kernel does clear memory that it hands to a different process than it previously belonged to; otherwise it would be an absolute security hazard (but apparently it clears to 0, which causes a lot of bugs like hmmmm said)
17:57 celeron55 that also enables quite silly tricks that became quite useful
17:57 celeron55 the buildat thing, i mean
17:59 est31 buildat is a remake of minetest?
17:59 celeron55 not really
18:00 est31 do you use it together with minetest then?
18:01 celeron55 you could use it for implementing a remake of minetest if you wanted to
18:01 celeron55 as-is it's quite barebones and nobody (including me) is using it for anything
18:01 est31 why did you start it?
18:01 celeron55 i wanted to see where it would go
18:01 celeron55 turns out doing a thing like that is a lot of work for no reward whatsoever
18:02 celeron55 (except the learning, but at that point there wasn't that much to learn anymore)
18:04 * est31 does git clone ...
18:05 celeron55 it would probably need a bit of redesign to be actually worth using; at least stripping out the bloated threading system that i did to see where that would go
18:06 celeron55 if someone finds messing around with it fun as-is, i might continue working on it
18:06 est31 client side lua, tcp, lots of cool things
18:07 est31 serverside c++ thats compiled on the runtime, does the thing have a compiler as dependency?
18:07 celeron55 yes it does
18:08 celeron55 it's ridiculous but works
18:09 celeron55 it's definitely not for outdated computers in any way whatsoever
18:09 est31 because of the compiler, or is there something else too?
18:09 est31 clientside too?
18:09 celeron55 urho3d requires opengl 2, the with-compiler windows binary package is something like 100MB
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18:09 hmmmm celeron55:  the custom allocator isn't guaranteed to work though
18:10 est31 oh
18:10 hmmmm there's an optimization to omit allocations altogether for small strings
18:10 hmmmm there is no way to securely zero a std::string.. it's just not the right container to use
18:11 celeron55 est31: the client-only build doesn't need the compiler though
18:11 est31 yea guessed so
18:11 hmmmm celeron55, the system idle process has a task that zeros recently freed pages
18:12 celeron55 est31: 100MB is not large compared to modern game engines or games though
18:12 celeron55 MT is just such a minimalist project in the end
18:13 est31 yes of course. I know of somebody who uses MT on a 2005 PC
18:13 VanessaE celeron55: bundle dreambuilder with MT and you're half-way there ;)
18:13 Calinou dreamtest
18:13 est31 db has ~70 MB (including git history)
18:14 VanessaE est31: 94MB with history, 52MB without
18:15 est31 maybe, my copy has alot of symlinks to repos I write mods for.
18:15 VanessaE really though, size of an engine isn't a particularly good indicator of its quality
18:16 est31 I guess the compiler doesn't have to be loaded into mem.
18:16 celeron55 but i mean, if there's somebody in here who doesn't find stupidly huge programs a problem and likes the ridiculous flexibility aspect of minetest interesting or entertaining, buildat is for you
18:16 est31 only if its compiling
18:19 celeron55 the compiling works so that there's simply a stripped-down mingw in a subdirectory that is called
18:19 celeron55 or on linux it just uses the system one
18:20 est31 lol compiling errors in stdout... something to grow accustomed to...
18:21 celeron55 i think i do need to somehow get buildat into a stable state, probably by stripping it down more to get rid of the badly designed interfaces
18:21 celeron55 currently i'm afraid of pushing it to users too much as it will have to change in order to be good
18:22 celeron55 someone else, go finish it; i'm too busy with other things
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18:28 est31 Is there support for a moving player yet, or is that for things the mods have to do?
18:28 celeron55 ehm
18:28 est31 s/for/to be implemented/
18:28 celeron55 no you're not getting the flexibility of buildat at all 8)
18:28 celeron55 implementing a player is up to mods
18:28 celeron55 that's where it starts
18:29 est31 ah
18:29 celeron55 without mods (which are actually called modules in buildat), what you basically have is a somewhat implicitly networked urho3d engine with automatic C++ compilation
18:30 est31 so the core engine is quite complete, just with some ugly interfaces, there is no default_game yet?
18:30 celeron55 there will never be a default game
18:31 est31 default_game++
18:31 celeron55 but there are some examples
18:31 est31 ah I see in the games folder
18:31 VanessaE [01-19 03:46] <hmmmm> give me one good reason why we don't dump this for urho3d right now
18:31 hmmmm i said that when i was POed
18:32 VanessaE heh
18:34 celeron55 est31: i mean, if i had no previous game projects that i really want to finish, i would have continued on buildat and made a game using it
18:34 celeron55 est31: but the thing is, i do, and they cannot be ported to buildat and it would make zero sense whatsoever anyway
18:34 est31 can minetest be finished?
18:34 celeron55 no
18:34 celeron55 it's not one of them
18:36 celeron55 or you could say that minetest is finished for my part
18:36 Calinou free software projects are never finished
18:50 sofar ^^ this
18:51 est31 what are the interfaces that are so ugly?
18:51 celeron55 ugly doesn't describe them properly
18:52 celeron55 i mean
18:52 celeron55 there's stuff like trying to decide what things are in the core and what are not
18:53 celeron55 and trying to figure out best practices of creating proper interfaces between modules so that they are actually useful
18:53 celeron55 and trying to figure out how urho3d scenes should be managed
18:53 celeron55 stuff like that
18:54 celeron55 it's not a thing like "that line of code is ugly"
18:54 est31 ok
18:56 est31 are the server modules sandboxed too?
18:56 celeron55 not in the slightest
18:56 celeron55 in the future there might possibly be a layer on top of them running sandboxed lua similarly to the client
18:57 celeron55 but that's far in the future at this pace
18:57 celeron55 like, 1000 years i'd say
18:57 celeron55 many people have asked for server-side lua though
18:58 celeron55 but they also have asked it to be at a level similar to minetest, which is nothing like what the example games and built-in modules are providing
18:59 celeron55 and it's not what they should be providing
18:59 celeron55 that's up to higher ones that don't exist
19:01 est31 mods can provide lua sandboxes too
19:01 est31 or js sandboxes
19:02 est31 or whatever
19:03 celeron55 yes, but they will miss the opportunity of urho3d directly providing a lua interface (which as to be carefully whitelisted though with a quite complex wrapper)
19:04 celeron55 which is done on the client
19:04 est31 the whitelisting is for the sandbox?
19:04 celeron55 umm?
19:05 est31 urho3d is also used server side... interesting
19:06 celeron55 yes, it's used in that way because it has built-in features that allow syncing a scene from the server to the client
19:06 celeron55 which allows quite MT-like programming (except that it's in C++)
19:07 celeron55 (also it's possible to add things to the same scene on the client that don't show up to others)
19:09 est31 does it include stuff like SAOs, or is that up to the mods?
19:09 est31 or far in the future
19:10 celeron55 yeah that's in there
19:11 celeron55 also it already supports VAE's, but that's making other things quite complicated and that's one thing to think about too
19:11 celeron55 it's implemented in a module though, not in core
19:11 celeron55 (mostly)
19:11 celeron55 VAEs*
19:12 est31 what does V stand for
19:12 celeron55 VAE isn't a buildat term though, it's "voxel area entity" which is a minetest thing (that doesn't exist in minetest)
19:12 Calinou voxel area entities
19:12 celeron55 objects that basically are a freeform chunk of voxels
19:13 celeron55 with physics
19:13 est31 so like a ship
19:13 celeron55 those are there, but then on the other hand map saving isn't there
19:13 celeron55 which they make less enjoyable
19:13 est31 their map saving?
19:13 est31 or saving at all
19:13 celeron55 saving at all
19:14 celeron55 in the current voxel world implementation every voxel is part of a VAE; some of them are just at static positions to make up the main landmass
19:14 est31 ok
19:14 celeron55 let me look up the actual buildat term for these...
19:14 est31 so VAEs can be as huge as they want
19:15 celeron55 in buildat they are called "dynamic voxel nodes"
19:15 celeron55 or "voxel nodes"
19:15 celeron55 static voxel node would be those that don't move
19:16 celeron55 est31: well large ones aren't efficient to edit
19:16 celeron55 but they can be quite large
19:17 celeron55 i mean, it's not some kind of magical thing that ends world poverty, but it's a lot more impressive than minetest if you ask me
19:18 celeron55 it just... needs a whole lot of work by capable programmers
19:18 celeron55 and that's the thing that is hard to come by
19:19 est31 yea
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19:19 est31 dunno whether I'm capable, guess not
19:19 celeron55 if you can understand the existing code, it's likely enough
19:20 est31 and: dunno how much time I can invest
19:20 celeron55 yeah that's the actual problem
19:20 celeron55 for me too
19:21 celeron55 i'm not really willing to put time into something that i am not sure won't teach me a lot of things or which won't deliver something useful to a lot of users
19:21 celeron55 at this point buildat is still quite a "well it might end up being interesting" project
19:22 est31 just like me
19:22 est31 with minetest, I have something that actually works
19:22 est31 and has users
19:23 hmmmm VAEs already exist in mods as clumps of SAOs that move together at once
19:23 hmmmm I hate it
19:23 celeron55 i don't really expect anyone to start using buildat before i have made something using it
19:23 hmmmm in any case, where do we store VAEs?  in the database?
19:23 celeron55 if i end up doing so, then i do expect that people will want to see what they can do with it too
19:24 celeron55 but that hasn't happened
19:24 est31 I could try working on buildat_game... but when the API gonna change...
19:24 celeron55 hmmmm: i'm sticking with my proposition of just allocating an unused edge of the world for them
19:24 celeron55 hmmmm: and you will be sticking with hating that
19:25 hmmmm I never understood the point of the "position hash"
19:25 hmmmm you're using a lot of unused bits for pretty much no reason at all
19:25 celeron55 wtf are you now referring to
19:25 hmmmm if we fix that we can reserve a special bit in the key that says "this is a VAE"
19:26 hmmmm celeron55:  before you jump to "WTF are you talking about", try waiting for the rest of the statement (or think harder)
19:26 hmmmm you'd come off as less abrasive that way
19:27 celeron55 ?
19:27 celeron55 so where is the rest of the statement
19:27 hmmmm the position hash used as the primary key in the map database
19:28 celeron55 lol what
19:28 hmmmm this makes your proposition of "allocating an unused edge" way more managable
19:28 hmmmm it would be easy to extract them this way
19:28 celeron55 databases have columns, you don't need some kind of special bits
19:28 hmmmm true, but what about leveldb
19:28 hmmmm or other things that are really just dumb key-value stores
19:28 celeron55 and you shouldn't be using special bits (or hashes like i did when i didn't know sqlite3 supports multiple indices) as databases can't index them properly
19:29 celeron55 hmmmm: they have strings as keys
19:29 hmmmm so do you suppose using a separate database file or something?
19:29 * hmmmm scratches head
19:29 hmmmm erm... s/suppose/propose/
19:30 celeron55 you don't have to have a position as the key for everything in leveldb
19:30 celeron55 you can just have "vae142" or something
19:30 celeron55 that's how leveldb is intended to be used
19:30 hmmmm oh, that's more flexible.
19:31 celeron55 in sql you should really have a separate table for VAEs
19:31 celeron55 if one is going for the same kind of structure as that would make in leveldb
19:31 hmmmm no, I think we should use a separate database file completely
19:31 hmmmm that way you can easily move them from world to world
19:32 est31 databases also have tables
19:32 celeron55 not going to work; people are going to want to add them, not replace them
19:32 hmmmm ??
19:32 hmmmm not sure I understand
19:32 celeron55 and they will have incompatible positions in the world with the main world voxels and whatnot
19:32 hmmmm oh no
19:32 hmmmm they'll be stored on the map by reference
19:33 celeron55 the main gameplay with VAEs that i am thinking is that each of them is unique and built from the ground up in-place
19:33 celeron55 you're thinking of some kind of model database
19:33 celeron55 where things can be just picked from
19:34 hmmmm I thought about how I want to do this and I think the most sane way is to load/store the VAEs in a separate DB, somebody can build a structure on the map using regular mapnodes, then when somebody hits the "turn into VAE" button it'd store it as a model
19:34 hmmmm and then create a SAO of it
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19:34 hmmmm the downside is you won't be able to build it or whatever while your boat is moving or whatever but it's much more managable this way
19:35 celeron55 i think you should be able to build on it, and run mesecons on it and whatnot, eventually
19:35 celeron55 but at first not being able to do that would be fine
19:35 hmmmm well no it's not fine
19:35 hmmmm because that would demand a fundamentally different model of how it functions
19:35 hmmmm so you'd need a rewrite
19:35 celeron55 not in how i've planned it
19:36 celeron55 maybe you planned something that isn't suitable for that 8)
19:36 hmmmm how did you plan it?
19:36 hmmmm you already did this with buildat no?
19:36 celeron55 buildat != minetest
19:36 celeron55 and i don't see what's so fundamental about thtis
19:36 celeron55 this*
19:37 hmmmm I don't know I can just see lots of problems
19:37 hmmmm like how are you going to get pointed_at if it's technically part of the map
19:37 hmmmm maybe I haven't thought hard enough about all this
19:38 celeron55 i see a lot of problems too; in minetest for example APIs are kind of not designed for them
19:38 hmmmm well it's a large feature, I'm sure there would be currently unknown obstacles with any approach
19:38 celeron55 but then again, mapping them in the same voxel 3D space to a different location solves it
19:39 hmmmm and then
19:39 hmmmm what about the problem of uniqueness
19:39 hmmmm nevermind, that's easily solved
19:40 hmmmm so we just tack on a boolean "is_vae_target" to set_node/get_node/swap_node?
19:40 celeron55 if you don't want to simply map them to the same 3D world, then please not that solution
19:41 celeron55 more like including vae=number in positions
19:41 celeron55 this is not a good reason to make APIs look ugly
19:41 hmmmm if we add another field to positions then we can throw realms in just as well
19:42 celeron55 well if somebody is willing to implement all that, i guess so
19:43 hmmmm i would if i had free time
19:43 hmmmm I realize a lot of my ideas are stupid but I haven't given this much serious thought
19:43 VanessaE if you were to "throw realms in", how would you implement them?  additional map databases?
19:44 hmmmm if we did it the celeron way(tm) then it'd be an additional column in the composite key mapping to the block data
19:45 hmmmm there's really not a better way of doing this
19:45 hmmmm it's something that's stupid and simple
19:45 hmmmm and works
19:45 celeron55 i do wish i would have been long-sighted enough to having thrown that stuff into APIs and databases much earlier... but back then even the basic idea of 0.4 was a stretch 8)
19:45 VanessaE Occam's Razor.
19:46 hmmmm and I nearly forgot about that pull request that splits up the block positions into x y and z
19:47 hmmmm it's a lot of work, i'm sure, but the API bit doesn't seem to be overly difficult
19:47 hmmmm we'd have to modify push_v3f and read_v3f to read the realm/vae/whatever ID and rename it
19:48 celeron55 the extended position is going to be an issue because people do a lot of u = {x=v.x, y=v.y, z=v.z} style stuff
19:48 hmmmm yeah so?
19:48 celeron55 but i guess it's fairly easy to fix in mods
19:48 hmmmm what's wrong with assuming if the realm ID is blank or 0 you're referring to the primary map
19:49 celeron55 yeah but if the VAE has a node that wants to place a node next to itself, boom
19:49 est31 you could make core code smart
19:49 celeron55 sounds like even more obscure errors
19:50 est31 if core gets  a position where the vae number is not set it checks whether the call has been made by code belonging to some node
19:50 est31 and checks the realm of that node
19:50 celeron55 you can't really generally know the answer to that check
19:50 celeron55 there are a lot of callbacks and whatnot
19:54 est31 there should be a mechanism that ensures you cannot start a server with vae support with mods that don't have vae support
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19:58 est31 or you get a warning
19:59 hmmmm maybe we can have each mod expose variables like
19:59 hmmmm is_vae_aware = true
20:00 hmmmm celeron55:  I see what you mean now, like for example a grow_something ABM that runs on it
20:00 hmmmm that wasn't written for voxel area entities
20:00 hmmmm wait guys wait
20:00 hmmmm I can only work on one huge thing at a time
20:01 hmmmm what's more important, this or client-side modding?
20:01 hmmmm and I can hardly even work on little things because I have real life too
20:04 Tesseract hmmmm: I'd say client-side mods.  Make sure it plays well with my security patch though.
20:04 est31 security patch?
20:05 hmmmm well
20:05 VanessaE I'd say client-side modding as well, of the two
20:05 Topic for #minetest-dev is now FEATURE FREEZE FOR 0.4.12 IN EFFECT.  Release date: soon™ | Minetest core development and maintenance. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/
20:05 hmmmm security on client-side modding is going to be a bit different from server side
20:05 hmmmm obviously it needs to be super-sandboxed
20:06 Tesseract est31: #1606
20:06 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1606 -- Add mod security by ShadowNinja
20:06 est31 chrome does own locked down processes with IPC
20:06 Tesseract hmmmm: That ^ with minor changes to isPathAllowed(or whatever I named it) should be secure for the client too.
20:07 Tesseract I'd look over all the whitelisted functions first though of course.
20:13 est31 even if you moved clientlua into its own process, that would only save from luajit exploits
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20:29 est31 hmmmm: initial client side modding, what should it be abled to do?
20:29 est31 just formspecs or things like world manipulation too
20:29 VanessaE flip a door open, move a MOB, that sorta thing.
20:30 est31 craft guides can be client side...
20:31 celeron55 put client-side entities into the world to show custom stuff
20:31 celeron55 (without showing it to other players)
20:32 celeron55 i mean, irrlicht scene nodes
20:32 est31 ok nice
20:32 celeron55 the thing here is, as these features get wider and wider, the attack surface gets huge
20:33 celeron55 you need to be programming this like a cryptography library
20:33 est31 just leave the APIs the server can access
20:33 est31 thats enough for the start
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20:33 est31 so when a server already can manipulate the nodes, let clientside lua modiffy that too
20:34 prozacgod joined #minetest-dev
20:34 celeron55 hmm
20:35 celeron55 should the access be unified so that client-side lua actually does use the same interface what the server sees through network
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20:35 celeron55 that would indeed minimize the addition of attack surface, but it might be a weird system
20:35 est31 mostly yes, at least my opinion
20:36 celeron55 hmmmm: if you're going to do this, give a few thoughts to this too; it might even give us a better server-side api simultaneously if it turns out to be a good idea
20:36 est31 but you would need shared stuff by the "actual client", and the clientlua, like the structures that keep the nodes
20:37 est31 unless you want to duplicate it
20:37 celeron55 i'm not too sure that it would be a good idea
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20:37 celeron55 anyway, everything is worth looking at before doing any complicated work
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20:44 est31 Tesseract: why is the PR not merged yet?
20:47 Tesseract est31: Because I haven't gotten approval from two other devs yet.
20:47 est31 ok
20:48 Tesseract And it can't go in now unless we make a release branch.
20:48 Tesseract My sqlite3-pos-split branch actually includes a number of fixes to local map saving.
20:48 est31 yea freeze
20:50 Tesseract If anyone wants to test either of those things (sqlite3-pos-split or security) that would be great.
20:50 est31 gonna try to get out of the sandbox :)
20:51 est31 and start dreambuilder with it.
20:53 Tesseract est31: datastorage (used by unified_inventory if available) might break.  Change the os.execute("mkdir"...) hack to core.mkdir(...) if so.  I have a patch that makes it compatible with both methods but it isn't pushed yet.
20:54 Tesseract WE has a similar issue, but only if you use one of the "/save*" commands.
20:54 est31 is the sandbox also enabled for the mainmenu lua?
20:54 nrzkt why release date is unilateral from 1 dev ,
20:54 nrzkt ?
20:57 Tesseract est31: IIRC it isn't.  It wouldn't really hurt if it was though.
20:58 est31 just asking, I've made a mod for the mainmenu, and that accesses the fs.
20:58 est31 -> https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=14&amp;t=11116
20:59 nrzkt it's not normal.
20:59 nrzkt mods mustn't have access to real FS
20:59 nrzkt and they mustn't send real commands into the server
21:13 Tesseract LOL, I remember someone proposed adding strgettext as wide_to_narrow(wstrgettext(str)) -- that's wide_to_narrow(std::wstring(narrow​_to_wide(gettext(str)).c_str())). -- char* -> wstring -> wchar* -> wstring -> string.
21:14 shadowzone_ did it get merged or even work?
21:14 * Tesseract will now increase translation speed 10x ;-)
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