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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-01-19

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Time Nick Message
00:13 TriBlade9 joined #minetest-dev
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00:49 vitaminx joined #minetest-dev
00:53 vitaminx hi all
00:53 vitaminx i'm looking for a method to get the window dimensions of a client but i can't find it in the docu
00:53 vitaminx any idea?
00:56 vitaminx my gut feeling tells me it should maybe be in minetest.get_player_information(playername)
00:56 vitaminx but it's not there
00:56 hmmmm why would you need to know that kind of information?
00:57 vitaminx i'm trying to improve unified_inventory mod, which shows the currently selected node name above the health bar
00:58 hmmmm you're supposed to use relative positioning for everything
00:59 VanessaE hmmmm: the default hotbar HUD overlaps the health bar if the hotbar takes up two rows, as in dreambuilder, ever since that whole formspec scaling mishegas started
00:59 vitaminx yes, but there's an annoying thing that the hud scales to 200% when you increase the window over a certain size
00:59 VanessaE maybe he has thge same problem
00:59 VanessaE yep, he does
01:00 vitaminx so my plan is to detect when the hud scales and shift the text accordingly
01:00 vitaminx in theory :P
01:01 vitaminx Hi VanessaE, your mods are awesome :)
01:01 VanessaE thanks
01:01 hmmmm agh
01:02 hmmmm modders are trying their hardest to work around a completely fubar system
01:02 hmmmm this is agonizing to watch :(
01:03 vitaminx seems harder than i thought it will be :( :P
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03:35 est31 why doesn't MT doesnt enable leveldb and gettext by default
03:36 est31 not including first is bad for speed latter anglo-centric
03:38 Zeno` hmmmm, didn't we discuss -O0 vs. -O1 a few weeks ago?
03:38 hmmmm we did
03:38 Zeno` hmmmm, I thought we decided that -O0 was ok. Did I misunderstand?
03:39 hmmmm I hate what -O1 does to debug symbols but it's necessary when doing general development work
03:39 hmmmm https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/e36681101efdfec3ed9cf9d70f7c5296c4124cd6  in any case, there's this now
03:39 hmmmm *you* may continue using Debug
03:39 hmmmm I'm going to use SemiDebug
03:39 Zeno` hmm. Can cmake support ... I was just about to ask that
03:40 hmmmm yes, you can define custom build modes
03:40 hmmmm the MSVC flags get set later on in that file, before you ask
03:40 est31 I mean leveldb include is no must-have. its a can-have, when its there include it. same with gettext and luajit.
03:40 Zeno` nope, I wasn't going to ask that. Was still reading :)
03:41 Zeno` I like that
03:41 hmmmm est31, sqlite3 is the conservative option
03:41 hmmmm and it's bundled in our source tree
03:42 hmmmm gettext is an additional dependency... dependencies shouldn't be forced onto people when they're unnecessary
03:42 est31 yea but that whats cmake for: if there and not disabled -> use else dont use
03:43 hmmmm that would be good behavior
03:43 est31 and not current behaviour: if enabled -> use else dont use
03:43 hmmmm would you be willing to code that?
03:43 hmmmm what is this: https://github.com/minetest/minetest​/blob/master/src/environment.h#L436
03:43 est31 if you merge it. i still have a pending PR and it wasn't that intrusive
03:44 hmmmm maybe I'm ignorant, but I don't understand the purpose of having an empty struct in a union
03:45 est31 #2073 and #2105 are still open.
03:45 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2073 -- Simplify Readme build steps by est31
03:45 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2105 -- Update german translation by est31
03:45 hmmmm a lot of other people seem to have discussion about the first one
03:45 hmmmm i dunno, what do those guys say
03:45 hmmmm i'm going to keep myself out of it
03:45 Zeno` I have no idea what that is in ClientEnvEvent for
03:46 est31 If I code the change when will you merge it
03:47 hmmmm sure, i will
04:11 vitaminx bye
04:17 Brains win 13
04:17 VanessaE lose 12
04:18 Brains I'm still ahead by one!  WOO!
04:18 VanessaE damn.  :(
04:18 * VanessaE rolls another d20
04:18 VanessaE :)
04:19 * Brains has been playing Star Wars: Edge of Empire with its funky collection of dice recently.  And they said THAC0 was difficult to remember...
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04:29 hmmmm https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit​/38bd9e93a252cb2dd5ace6b0132514edff38b504
04:30 hmmmm any objections?
04:30 VanessaE wait a bit for zeno to return
04:30 VanessaE (he's offline due to storms in his area, should be back shortly)
04:30 paramat hi hmmmm, #2142 is ready for review/merge
04:31 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2142 -- Mgv5: Various improvements, bugfix, uneasiness, speed increase by paramat
04:31 VanessaE you know how he feels about compiler warnings :)
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04:55 paramat thanks!
05:21 kaeza https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L1812 --> http://xkcd.com/859/
05:21 VanessaE haha
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05:59 TriBlade9 Wewp
06:12 TriBlade9 This will break all existing colorize operations
06:15 TriBlade9 Uggh, how does one word this?
06:15 VanessaE "If you use [colorize, you're fucked"   ?
06:15 VanessaE ;)
06:19 TriBlade9 Yep :3
06:19 TriBlade9 Until you tack :255 on the end of it
06:20 VanessaE oh sure, ruin the joke :P
06:21 TriBlade9 What?
06:22 TriBlade9 Oops
06:22 TriBlade9 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2153
06:22 TriBlade9 #2153
06:22 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2153 -- Fix colorize using the color alpha literally and as the ratio to interpolate the colors with. by TriBlade9
06:22 TriBlade9 There we go
06:22 TriBlade9 Oh darn, forgot to switch it to a s32
06:30 hmmmm why does compatibility need to be broken, I don't understand
06:31 hmmmm if the :thing isn't there, why not interpret the alpha as the blend ratio
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06:37 TriBlade9 hmmmm We already discussed that. It's fine if you want to do that
06:38 Zeno` :thing cannot be optional?
06:38 TriBlade9 Zeno` It can be -_-
06:38 TriBlade9 If it's not there then we can just use the alpha, no biggie
06:38 TriBlade9 Want me to write that up?
06:39 Zeno` I think so...
06:39 TriBlade9 Okay
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06:46 TriBlade9 comitting, working as expected
06:48 TriBlade9 However, backwards-compatibility for broken code is probably not something we want to keep for long
06:50 hmmmm So guys
06:50 TriBlade9 Done, committed
06:50 hmmmm I have a better idea on how to make fast settings
06:50 TriBlade9 Oh?
06:50 hmmmm up to this point it's like everybody who wants to minimize the overhead of their settings makes up their own mechanisms
06:51 hmmmm why can't we have Settings have two settings trees, one an array with O(1) lookup time, and the other the typical string map
06:51 hmmmm if the setting being read maps to one of the "special core use" settings, it'll get added to the vector
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06:53 TriBlade9 Huh
06:53 TriBlade9 No idea what that means <3
06:53 TriBlade9 Sounds good though
06:54 Zeno` sounds pretty much exactly what I began to implement lol
06:54 Zeno` anyway, bbl
06:55 TriBlade9 Bai
06:56 hmmmm i remember that
06:57 hmmmm it had all sorts of funky callbacks and a big update function'
06:57 hmmmm this is not the same at all
06:58 hmmmm it's a simple enum CoreSettings { CSET_FAST_MOVE, CSET_KEYMAP_THING, ...}   g_settings->getU16(CSET_FAST_MOVE);  <--- lock-free, wait free, O(1) lookup, zero string processing
06:58 hmmmm just a return a value from an array
06:59 hmmmm std::map<const char *, CoreSettings> g_core_settings;  on initialize, g_core_settings.insert("fast_move", CSET_FAST_MOVE); ...
06:59 hmmmm then on loading
07:01 hmmmm std::map<const char *, CoreSettings>::iterator it = g_core_settings.find(settings_name); if (it != g_core_settings.end()) { set(it->second, settings_value); } else { set(settings_name, settings_value); }  ...
07:01 hmmmm so simple
07:01 hmmmm there i just wrote it
07:01 hmmmm now add it to minetest
07:01 hmmmm well the key trick to all this is making the accesses atomic.  for obvious reasons no strings allowed
07:02 hmmmm it would be centralized, generalized, as fast as the keycache map, and it can replace every other instance where we cache settings
07:02 hmmmm like for example in the EmergeManager there's mapgen debug info settings cached
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07:06 grondilu I often get "Irrlicht log: Could not open file of texture: character.png", yet this file does exist.  It's in ./games/minetest_game/mods/d​efault/models/character.png
07:07 hmmmm that sucks.
07:17 grondilu notice though that I see myself in 3rd person view, so either the file is actually found, or an alternate one is found somewhere else.
07:18 hmmmm i've noticed that error message before... it never affected me
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08:37 hmmmm :(
08:37 hmmmm that transparency sorting issue got me down
08:38 hmmmm my light source halo effect texture fights with water nodes
08:38 VanessaE oh it gets worse.
08:39 VanessaE try making a meshnode partly translucent, especially something with lots of narrow, long polys
08:39 VanessaE it makes a bloody mess of it :)
08:40 VanessaE (I discovered it accidentally while modelling the wine bottles in homedecor)
08:40 VanessaE -l
08:43 hmmmm i refuse to believe this is still a problem 11 years later
08:44 VanessaE in minetest it is..  but 11 years?
08:44 hmmmm it was first reported on the irrlicht forums back in 2004
08:44 VanessaE ah
08:44 hmmmm here's a bug report 5 years later:  http://sourceforge.net/p/irrlicht/bugs/262/
08:44 VanessaE christ in a cartoon.
08:44 hmmmm I mean
08:44 hmmmm there are people who work on irrlicht, I think... right?
08:44 VanessaE in theory there are
08:44 hmmmm give me one good reason why we don't dump this for urho3d right now
08:44 VanessaE there IS a 1.9 version out there somewehre
08:45 VanessaE but honestly, there is only ONE reason I can give you:"
08:45 VanessaE inertia.
08:45 hmmmm you can't do jack shit with irrlicht
08:45 VanessaE (whether the new target is urho3d or OGRE or something else)
08:45 hmmmm you can't have inertia without velocity
08:45 VanessaE this is true
08:45 VanessaE but there IS some velocity here
08:45 hmmmm where
08:45 VanessaE well
08:46 hmmmm I am so pissed off
08:46 nrzkt @hmmmm, in 2014 X11 solved a bug present since 20 years, be patient
08:46 hmmmm oh okay
08:46 VanessaE minetest development has actually been picking up steam lately hasn't it?
08:46 hmmmm :\
08:46 hmmmm VanessaE, yes, but development on graphics has not
08:46 VanessaE true.
08:47 VanessaE I'm just saying that switching to another graphics engine is bound to introduce tons of headaches for a while
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08:48 nrzkt i think it's not a good idea to change engine now. Before minetest must resolve design problems
08:49 gregorycu There are things we can do to prepare for an engine change
08:49 VanessaE with as many other areas as I've heard described here as in need of attention, I think it would add too much workload.  better would be the idea of abstracting the connection between minetest and irrlicht -- I don't remember who suggested that -- and then
08:49 VanessaE yeah exactly, gregorycu.
08:50 VanessaE *prepare* for it now, but don't actually do it until other areas of the engine are less..  what's the word?
08:50 gregorycu retarded
08:50 * VanessaE waits for hmmmm's adjective
08:50 gregorycu Probably be the same one
08:50 gregorycu VanessaE, have you worked on many mods?
08:50 VanessaE I have, yes
08:53 hmmmm welp
08:53 hmmmm I did the best I could
08:55 gregorycu There are two types of projects
08:55 VanessaE hmmmm: allegedly, minetest can be convinced to do all the z-sorting stuff on its own but ...  well I guess it's a royal pain in the ass.
08:55 gregorycu Half-completed ones with perfect design and code, and completed ones with sub-standard design and code
08:55 hmmmm well I know how to do that for nodes
08:55 hmmmm http://i.imgur.com/M82MvF6.png   cool effect, right?
08:55 hmmmm http://i.imgur.com/KfojoxV.png
08:56 VanessaE OOOOOOOOOOOOOO
08:56 VanessaE I like that
08:56 hmmmm the size obviously needs to be adjusted but it looks perfect above water
08:56 VanessaE tone it down a bit for those torches but you got something there
08:57 VanessaE (the first screenshot with the round inner edge of the halo looks better)
08:57 hmmmm lol.
08:57 hmmmm the second screenshot is showing how transparency sorting messes it up
08:57 VanessaE ah
08:57 VanessaE go figure :D
08:57 gregorycu What is it? An image?
08:57 hmmmm er wait
08:57 hmmmm in that second screenshot it's not exactly the transparency sorting
08:58 hmmmm it's just being occluded by the water which it shouldn't be since it's a transparent face
08:58 hmmmm see, like i don't know how to fix that.
08:58 hmmmm i'm not that gud with computers
08:58 VanessaE hmmmm: homedecor's doors do that too
08:59 VanessaE (one of them has frosted glass, and I didn't bother to turn the alpha property off on the others, so they all exhibit the glitch)
09:00 hmmmm night gusy
09:00 hmmmm guys
09:00 VanessaE night
09:01 * hmmmm &
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09:05 kilbith ugh, looks like a white sliced pineapple in that screenie..
09:05 VanessaE haha
09:05 VanessaE well it's just a test image
09:05 VanessaE I can see exactly what he's trying to accomplish with it though
09:06 kilbith $ whereis RBA
09:06 kilbith needed !
09:06 VanessaE his job keeps him super-busy lately
09:06 kilbith :(
09:07 jin_xi one thing im wondering about everytime i see it is the weird smoke puff entities make when destroyed. should be replaced by a particle effect
09:07 jin_xi or removed, looks like shit
09:08 VanessaE probably so, yeah
09:08 VanessaE even a better texture helps though
09:08 VanessaE (HDX supplies an image drawn from actual smoke)
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09:31 gregorycu We have exactly 100 open bugs
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10:00 gregorycu We should have a bug-squashing month
10:00 gregorycu Where we all just do bug fixes
10:00 TriBlade9 ^^
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10:02 nrzkt it's a good idea
10:11 gregorycu Maybe with a prize or something :)
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10:11 gregorycu For whoever squashes the most bugs?
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10:34 gregorycu Just in time
10:35 gregorycu #2156
10:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2156 -- Optimise MapBlockMesh functions by gregorycu
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10:36 Zeno` gregorycu, at a glance it seems good. I doubt I can merge tonight though (maybe later). I'm just so tired
10:36 Zeno` cannot think properly
10:36 gregorycu I was tired when I got up today
10:36 gregorycu So I called in sick to work
10:36 gregorycu lololol
10:37 gregorycu All good, I only just finished that
10:37 Zeno` I dunno... maybe I have sleeping sickness or malaria or something
10:37 Zeno` been tired for about a week now
10:37 Zeno` for no apparent reason
10:37 gregorycu I actually think I can drastically improve the performance, but it's a bigger change, I'd prefer to get this through first
10:38 Zeno` where is the performance coming from in 2156?
10:38 Zeno` pre-allocating size and..
10:39 Zeno` voxel.cpp line 624... what is that?
10:39 Zeno` oh I see
10:39 Zeno` hmm
10:40 gregorycu The thing is
10:40 gregorycu This code takes a VoxelManipulator, which can grow to accommodate
10:40 gregorycu However, the code does not need to actually grow thing this
10:40 gregorycu thing
10:41 gregorycu So, you pay a performance cost for that feature, which is not used
10:41 gregorycu I want to get this fixed up in a different PR, and basically have a StaticVoxelManipulator
10:44 gregorycu Off to cook dinner, bbiaw
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11:55 gregorycu I am back, and unlike Zeno`, ready for more
12:35 Zeno` this code makes my head explode sometimes :(
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12:55 gregorycu What code are you looking at, by the way?
12:56 Zeno` if(m_sneak_node_exists &&
12:56 Zeno` nodemgr->get(map->getNodeNo​Ex(m_old_node_below)).name == "air" &&
12:56 Zeno` m_old_node_below_type != "air")
12:57 Zeno` it seriously does my head in
12:57 kahrl lol, that's an efficient way to check for CONTENT_AIR
12:58 gregorycu Oh dear
12:58 gregorycu Are you fixing some of the sneak bugs?
13:02 gregorycu Let's see how hard this crashes
13:03 gregorycu It didn't crash..
13:06 Zeno` nah, not sneak bugs :(
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13:20 gregorycu 35% faster
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13:28 * Zeno` gives up
13:30 gregorycu What are you working on?
13:34 TriBlade9 Hey Zeno`, Why conver the s32's to ints?
13:35 Zeno` the range of valid values is -1 to 255?
13:35 Zeno` I dunno... I'd just rather use standard types for cases like that
13:36 TriBlade9 I suspect there would be narrowing conversion issues then
13:36 Zeno` narrowing issues how?
13:36 TriBlade9 s32 to int?
13:37 TriBlade9 Meh
13:37 TriBlade9 IDK, I don't speak C++ natively
13:37 Zeno` but it's already limited to -1 to 255
13:37 gregorycu -1 to 255
13:37 TriBlade9 Okay, I'll try it before commenting anymore
13:37 gregorycu Strange range
13:38 Zeno` -1 is an "error value"
13:38 TriBlade9 Yeah
13:38 TriBlade9 Probably not the best way to go about it, but whatevz
13:38 Zeno` well, maybe. There are no narrowing issues though :p
13:38 TriBlade9 There's a lot more issues with the coloring/texture generating btw
13:38 TriBlade9 I was playing with it for quite awhile. That thing is crazy
13:39 nrzkt Zeno` please use a normalize way, use s32 instead of int... don't use different types (yes i know s32 = int)
13:39 TriBlade9 o3o
13:39 Zeno` nrzkt, rubbish
13:39 Zeno` not in this case
13:39 TriBlade9 Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!
13:39 Zeno` it does not need to be s32
13:39 gregorycu I have 2c and I can't see the code to comment on
13:39 TriBlade9 Heck, if it didn't need the -1, it could be a byte
13:40 Zeno` if int is appropriate, use int
13:40 TriBlade9 Wait
13:40 nrzkt Zero, use short int instead then
13:40 nrzkt not int
13:40 nrzkt s16
13:40 TriBlade9 Come to think of it, what would the point of a 0 value be in the modifier?
13:40 gregorycu Where is the code?
13:40 Zeno` no, because int is the preferred "default" choice
13:40 TriBlade9 It literally means to do nothing
13:41 Zeno` s16 is not even a standard type
13:41 nrzkt no, but it's used everywhere
13:41 Zeno` is there a reason why it must be 16 bits (minimum)?
13:42 Zeno` if not, use int
13:42 nrzkt less memory used ?
13:42 Zeno` no, the compiler will convert most shorts to int anyway
13:42 Zeno` unless they're global
13:42 TriBlade9 -.-
13:42 gregorycu Is this int stored in a structure?
13:42 TriBlade9 FFS guys, it's a tiny commit. Does it matter that much?
13:42 TriBlade9 No gregory
13:43 gregorycu In that case
13:43 gregorycu int_fast8_t is the correct answer
13:43 Zeno` lol
13:43 Zeno` not it's not because that has a range of 256 distinct values :P
13:43 Zeno` the requirement for the function in question is 257 distinct values
13:43 nrzkt -1 -> 255 = 257 values
13:44 gregorycu From the standard: "The typedef name int_fastN_t designates the fastest signed integer type with a width of at least N."
13:44 TriBlade9 We could probably do 0-255, since 0 would be totally useless anyways
13:44 gregorycu Anyway, as someone said, let's move on
13:45 TriBlade9 Sooo
13:45 TriBlade9 Uhh
13:45 TriBlade9 What should I do?
13:45 gregorycu Dance
13:46 TriBlade9 But which dance?!
13:46 gregorycu Whatever you want, dance like nobody is watching
13:46 TriBlade9 No need for a *like*
13:46 TriBlade9 replace it with a "'cause"
13:46 TriBlade9 s/like/cause
13:51 gregorycu I'm watching
13:52 Zeno` I don't think I'll finish MapBlock::getNode/getNodeNoEx/etc
13:52 Zeno` too many changes
13:53 gregorycu It's funny, I've been looking at that stuff
13:53 Zeno` All this because exceptions were originally used instead of if() else :(
13:54 Zeno` I'll fix one more file. If I still get errors I cbf
13:54 Zeno` already modified 18 files
13:55 gregorycu I made a StaticVoxelManipulator
13:56 gregorycu It's what you use when you know the point exists in the area
13:56 gregorycu It doesn't use contains, or addArea
13:57 gregorycu addArea is now 0.73% inclusive
14:02 gregorycu On the negative side, I introduced a bug
14:03 TriBlade9 No biggy
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14:07 kilbith PilzAdam, "Mese is not "alien stuff"  wat ?
14:09 PilzAdam are you going to say anything else or is "wat" your only reaction?
14:09 kilbith yes, Mese has historically alien origins
14:11 PilzAdam {{citation_needed}}
14:12 kilbith seriously, latin letters on alien block, wtf
14:13 PilzAdam kilbith, why do you believe that it has alien origins?
14:13 PilzAdam have you made it up yourself or someone else?
14:14 kilbith because c55 has stated that
14:14 PilzAdam where?
14:16 Zeno` he stated that it was a joke between early developers
14:16 Zeno` based upon the Finnish pronunciation of mese
14:17 Kray mese is like an 8 years old joke on certain finnish irc channel
14:18 kilbith http://irc.minetest.ru/min​etest/2014-07-26#i_3834457
14:18 kilbith i continue asking to google
14:19 kilbith Mese as alien stuff is in the popular culture here anyway
14:19 PilzAdam and gold is butter in MC's popular culture
14:19 PilzAdam doesn't mean that Mojang changes the gold texture to look more like butter
14:26 nrzkt xD
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14:30 kilbith PilzAdam: according to google images, cotton plants & wheat are realistic
14:32 shadowzone joined #minetest-dev
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14:36 kilbith cotton plant is inherently (looking) dry at its final stage
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14:43 Zeno` where is RealBadAngel?
14:43 sfan5 not here
14:43 Zeno` apparently not
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15:22 shadowzone Zeno`, you timed out on Inchra
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15:36 vitaminx hi everyone, I have a couple of questions about running a minetest-server
15:36 vitaminx first of all, some posts in the forum claim that the server is multithreaded
15:37 PilzAdam vitaminx, this topic is better suited for #minetest
15:37 vitaminx however, the server doesn't seem to take advantage of a second CPU core, when there's heavy load on the CPU its always only one core that peaks, the other stays idle
15:37 vitaminx ok
15:37 shadowzone vitaminx, maybe you should ask on #minetest
15:38 vitaminx i'll do
15:38 vitaminx see ya
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16:37 gregorycu Guess who can't sleep
16:39 gregorycu The answer is me
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16:40 shadowzone random
16:41 gregorycu Yeah, it's 3:40am and all I could think of is a way to make minetest faster
16:43 gregorycu So I thought I'd might as well try it
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17:34 sapier hmmmm most agonizing thing about those modder workarounds is that they stop us from fixing the broken system
17:35 hmmmm serenity now... insanity later
17:35 shadowzone hmmmm, so enjoy it while a got it.
17:35 shadowzone *ya
17:35 hmmmm i keep reminding myself that these problems are motivation for getting client side scripting in
17:36 hmmmm it will be a real boon for formspecs
17:36 sapier hmmmm OTTO or ZEUS?
17:36 hmmmm I thought we agreed on ZEUS
17:36 sapier did we ? ZEUS was the client side only thingy without any connection to server
17:36 hmmmm oh, then OTTO
17:37 hmmmm i thought it was the opposite
17:37 sapier hmm guess the names still aren't stupid enough to get remembered
17:37 hmmmm so
17:37 hmmmm why don't we swap out lua for javascript
17:38 hmmmm and swap out the formspec language for html
17:38 hmmmm minetest will just be a glorified web browser
17:38 Calinou otto/zeus?
17:38 hmmmm swap out irrlicht for webgl
17:38 hmmmm minetest will be web 2.0
17:38 sapier btw that dual line inventory was a workaround for extra small android screens I added ... I fear this wasn't smartest idea I ever had
17:38 Calinou Web 3.0, even!
17:39 sapier hmmmm sounds like rewriting would be better in this situation
17:39 sapier of course you'd have to replace harddisk by dropbox too
17:41 hmmmm btw what happened to 0.4.12?
17:41 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2132 could someone please comment on this? especially button icons as well as location of those buttons. I'd like to merge it and at best the positions and icons are right from the beginning
17:41 sapier hmmmm imho to much code fluctuation atm to do a release
17:42 hmmmm hmm
17:43 hmmmm sapier, btw, i checked and sqlite doesn't produce an error if you try to delete a row without it existing
17:43 hmmmm i'm wondering if that additional SELECT statement before the delete on android makes block saving any slower
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17:43 hmmmm (probably not because cache)
17:44 sapier I don't know the only thing I remember about sqlite on android was replace not working correct
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18:07 jin_xi sapier: do you have any specific 'modder workarounds' in mind?
18:08 sapier all of those things working around gui and formspec limitations, but not a single thing no
18:19 jin_xi idk but it seems to me that if a good fix/alternative is in place mods will be updated/replaced
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18:23 sapier jin_xi: in theory yes in practice no
18:26 jin_xi cant blame modders to only check every decade if a fix is in place yet... ;)
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20:14 T4im while I can't see an angle atm. to abuse this, you still might want to check #2159 for security implications
20:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2159 -- minetest executes locally installed mods when connecting to a server under certain circumstances
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20:18 T4im or rather, no angle that wouldn't have an easier solution, hehe
20:18 T4im guess if one would be distributing the fitting mod you could force execution, but then again, if you get a malicious mod distributed its probably too late anyway
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20:19 sapier what?
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20:20 T4im sapier: "enable_local_map_saving = true" executes locally installed mods when connecting to a remote server, provided these mods are being configured for the local copy of said server
20:21 sapier sounds really strange
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20:22 T4im stranger as #2024? it appears there's some sort of statekeeping going wrong… minetest forgetting if it connects locally, remotely or loopback
20:22 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2024 -- Local map saving runs on locally started server, overwriting another world.
20:23 T4im at least for the local save feature
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20:44 sapier kahrl PilzAdam ShadowNinja hmmmm sfan5 what do you guys think about adding some sort of lan server browser? I'd like to support android bluetooth gaming by some time and there we'd need automatic local server discovery anyway.
20:45 sfan5 sapier: sounds good
20:46 sfan5 sapier: also here is some work on bluetooth https://github.com/sfan5/minetest/tree/bluetooth
20:47 sapier interesting so there's even native bluetooth support?
20:47 sfan5 uh
20:47 sfan5 bluetooth is a feature of the linux kernel
20:47 sfan5 ofc there is supprot
20:47 sfan5 support*
20:48 sapier I see so no android special feature but direct kernel functions
20:49 sapier well the good thing is we could even get bluetooth interoperability on pc too
20:49 sfan5 the only android-specific addition to that would be to detect whether bluetooth is enable
20:49 sfan5 +d
20:50 sfan5 bluetooth is also presents interesting problems
20:50 sfan5 rfcomm functions like tcp
20:50 sfan5 but minetest uses udp
20:50 sapier well as I already moved minetest to tcp in an experimental branch I guess I can handle this too
20:50 sfan5 -> on creating of socket program does not know whether it is a server socket or client socker
20:50 sfan5 socket*
20:51 sfan5 but my code already contains something that should solve this w/o making any speicific code changes to socket binding itself
20:51 sapier I used a mixed mode protocol maybe using a tcp only version would solve even more issues
20:52 sapier we wouldn't have to think about using enet or some other protocol if we could use tcp too
20:52 sapier but that's pure guessing right now
20:53 sapier sfan5 are you actively working on that code right now? because for me it'd be a sparetime thingy not beeing done that fast
20:54 sfan5 sapier: no, it was just something that i wrote because i had the exact same idea you had
20:54 sfan5 sapier: "Last commit: May 2014"
20:57 sapier ok :-)
20:57 sapier I guess it's your idea I just remembered it as android support becomes more and more complete
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22:08 hmmmm does anybody understand what enable_img.png and disable_img.png are?
22:09 sfan5 looks like it used for wield item shaders
22:09 sfan5 although that code if #if 0'd out temporarily
22:09 sfan5 wieldmesh.cpp:367-382
22:09 VanessaE oh wait
22:09 VanessaE I remember that now
22:10 VanessaE that's to pass booleans into the shaders.
22:10 hmmmm sfan5, yes, i know that.  that's not understanding what they are.
22:10 sfan5 <VanessaE> that's to pass booleans into the shaders.
22:10 sfan5 wait what
22:10 VanessaE yeah.
22:10 VanessaE or it was at one time.
22:10 sfan5 isn't there an irrlicht interface for that
22:10 hmmmm what's wrong with setting a global in the shaders
22:10 VanessaE not in minetest, or not that RBA was able to use
22:10 hmmmm normalmap_enabled
22:11 VanessaE idk, something to do with actually getting the data from C++ space into glsl space
22:11 hmmmm that's just so stupid
22:11 hmmmm i can't help but wonder how much having those effect performance
22:13 gregorycu lol
22:13 gregorycu It's funny you should mention this
22:13 gregorycu Because if you're wondering what I think you're wondering about, you need not wonder
22:15 gregorycu No, you're talking about a different setting
22:15 gregorycu However, I can tell you that checking settings consumes about 8% of the render loop
22:15 gregorycu Or rather, the main thread
22:15 hmmmm yeah :(
22:15 hmmmm "oh don't worry about performance, it'sok"
22:16 VanessaE actually, at the time, performance was a pretty big problem, but an even bigger problem was compatibility
22:16 VanessaE at first he tried some kind of overlay
22:16 VanessaE but turned out some drivers barfed on that
22:16 gregorycu From my perspective, every little performance gain gives us a little extra scope to make performance impacting changes down the line
22:16 VanessaE gregorycu: +1
22:16 hmmmm vanessae:  you still talking about the thing I brought up?
22:16 VanessaE hmmmm: yes.
22:17 VanessaE but I'm done.
22:17 hmmmm my guess was that there was a limited number of globals in shaders
22:17 gregorycu Ok, time for the big test
22:17 hmmmm did do you remember somebody saying something like that around that time
22:17 sfan5 can't you just make one u16 flags; and use flags & 0x1, flags & 0x2 ...
22:18 hmmmm yeah you could.
22:18 hmmmm but booleans are more user friendly!
22:18 gregorycu Buffer overrun
22:18 hmmmm booleans!  textual strings!  i love wasting space and hurting performance!
22:18 hmmmm BUT USER FRIENDLY
22:18 gregorycu Setting is actually on my hit list
22:18 hmmmm IT'S 2015
22:18 gregorycu Settings
22:18 gregorycu I have a hit list
22:18 hmmmm gregorycu, don't bother
22:18 gregorycu Why don't bother?
22:18 hmmmm I'm going to get that once and for all
22:19 sfan5 hmmmm: since when do we care about shader code being user-friendly?
22:19 hmmmm sfan5, it's called sarcasm~
22:20 sfan5 i know
22:20 hmmmm anywayw
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22:20 hmmmm when RBA comes around I'm going to ask him about it
22:20 sfan5 sure you don't want to yell at him instead
22:20 sfan5 ?
22:21 hmmmm no i'm not doubting his judgement here
22:21 hmmmm it's just that there's knowledge lost
22:21 hmmmm i recall there being a big incompatibility with ATI cards and i'm wondering if this was put in place because of it
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22:23 sfan5 having checks all over the code sucks, but maybe we should consider not using hacks when there is a newer card/driver (that works the way it is supposed to)
22:23 VanessaE hmmmm: that was the water shader.  it still doesn't work entirely correct :P
22:23 acerspyro lol
22:23 hmmmm totally agreed
22:23 sfan5 (runtime-detection basically)
22:23 VanessaE (which is why it never went in, I guess)
22:23 hmmmm this is what basically every other game ever does.
22:23 acerspyro Are we focusing on open drivers or closed drivers?
22:23 sfan5 all drivers
22:23 hmmmm minetest is such an outlier because it's now being written by people with absolutely zero graphics knowledge
22:24 acerspyro lol
22:24 acerspyro dat alpha bugginess, tho.
22:33 gregorycu The good news is it's the type of game where graphics isn't #1 priority
22:33 VanessaE graphics are a priority though, if your game looks like shit, people won't play it
22:34 acerspyro ^
22:34 acerspyro Am I the only one who sees bugginess in semi-transparent blocks?
22:34 gregorycu What about minecraft?
22:35 VanessaE minecraft has commercial support behind it
22:35 gregorycu lol
22:35 VanessaE and quite frankly, it looks a lot better than minetest in some ways, from the videos I've seen
22:35 gregorycu commercial support?
22:36 VanessaE well I mean it IS a commercial product of course
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22:36 VanessaE as in, it has pros working on it, and paid to do it.
22:36 gregorycu That's debatable
22:36 gregorycu The pros bit
22:37 gregorycu But initially it was a one-man thing
22:37 VanessaE was.
22:37 gregorycu And it gained traction
22:37 VanessaE now it's, what, a 2 billion dollar enterprise?
22:37 Vexyl notch had worked professionally on games before minecraft
22:37 gregorycu Notch is a hack
22:37 gregorycu That's well-known
22:37 Vexyl so I guess you're arguing over plural vs. singular
22:38 Vexyl hater:P
22:39 VanessaE my point is, if you got money, you can hire good programmers.
22:39 VanessaE does Mojang hire good programmers?  that's up to someone else to decide.
22:39 gregorycu We are good programmers
22:39 gregorycu Well, i am
22:39 VanessaE yes, we are.
22:39 VanessaE but there aren't enough of us.
22:39 acerspyro lol
22:39 gregorycu My day job is several cuts above working in a game dev studio
22:40 jin_xi imho there are more pressing issues, like borked attachment system and no pitch for entities and such. i want to crush griefers with a drawbridge ffs
22:40 jin_xi more pressing than graphics
22:40 gregorycu Many hands can work in many places
22:40 gregorycu Just gotta make sure they're the right places
22:40 acerspyro jin_xi: should be included in "fixing graphics"
22:42 sapier talking about many hands, here are quite a lot of ppl talking about what to improve who's actually willing to do the work?
22:42 gregorycu Well, I'm working right now
22:42 * jin_xi is not able to
22:42 gregorycu On boring shit like performance
22:42 gregorycu What are you doing?
22:43 VanessaE I've been focusing my efforts on meshes in mods which I have commit access to, since it's about the best use of my time
22:43 sapier trying to match all those pieces different ppl provide ;-)
22:43 gregorycu In fact, I took the day off work because I have some stuff i want to try that was bugging me last night
22:43 gregorycu So nothing?
22:43 hmmmm looked at the shaders
22:43 VanessaE hmmmm: and you're still sane?
22:43 hmmmm no, enable_img.png and disable_img.png are not in place of globals
22:44 hmmmm they're just information if the normalmap EXISTS for THAT PARTICULAR TEXTURE
22:44 hmmmm hrmm
22:44 sapier well gregorycu if you believe writing code is the most complex thing in minetest we don't need to continue discussing ;-P
22:44 hmmmm but I think I have a better idea
22:44 gregorycu Good, I have work to do
22:44 VanessaE hmmmm: that's weird, I distinctly remember them being used for passing bools
22:44 * VanessaE shrugs
22:44 hmmmm normalmaps' alpha channel isn't relevant, right?
22:44 VanessaE it is.
22:44 hmmmm it is used for passing bools
22:44 VanessaE it's used for parallax mapping
22:45 hmmmm oh....
22:45 * hmmmm goes and hides
22:46 hmmmm it's just that I don't like the idea of uploading an entire texture for some sort of shader hack to say y/n when shading a particular material
22:46 hmmmm what do professional game developers do for this
22:47 hmmmm btw it's not like I identified this as a significant bottleneck, it's just something that bothers me because... well, look at it
22:47 hmmmm it's everywhere and it's pukeish
22:48 VanessaE I'm pretty sure they write a whole hell of a lot of decision-making code that gets passed on to a preprocessor to turn it into glsl or hlsl.
22:48 hmmmm the decision making shouldn't be put into the shaders itself
22:48 VanessaE no, it shouldn't.
22:48 hmmmm it should be separated into multiple shaders
22:48 VanessaE so, in other words, it should be done like I just suggested.
22:49 VanessaE :)
22:49 hmmmm so like
22:49 hmmmm this shader uses the 2nd texture layer for decision making on what math to perform on that material
22:50 hmmmm if a normalmap is all (0,0,0,0), then doesn't performing the math yield the same result as if it were not normal mapped at all?
22:50 hmmmm forgive me ignorance
22:50 VanessaE I remember RBA having problems using those layers.  too many (even as many as three) and the GPU or driver (we weren't sure which) barfs
22:51 hmmmm the policy should be that if a normal map doesn't exist for a certain material, the normal map should be the default one that doesn't add any depth
22:51 VanessaE (mostly that came down to opengl versioning)
22:51 hmmmm right
22:51 hmmmm another thing about the layers
22:51 hmmmm the third layer should be used for lightmaps
22:51 hmmmm except we're in a unique position to not need lightmaps
22:52 hmmmm because we have verticies at regular positions, we can get away with complete vertex lighting.  the same can't be said for other games
22:52 hmmmm (and no, we can't do mesh welding because it's too slow)
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22:55 VanessaE also,
22:56 VanessaE RBA was convinced at the time that separating the shaders into different components would come with a performance penalty
22:56 hmmmm it may or may not be true
22:56 hmmmm i'd profile it
22:56 VanessaE I don't think the idea of any kind of preprocessing step had really come up though
22:57 Acerspyro ik how we can be different to Minecraft.
22:57 Acerspyro Seeing your own body.
22:57 Acerspyro plz? :D
22:57 VanessaE as it stands, the only reason I turn shaders on at all is to get around the alpha sorting problem, and that's of course limited.
22:58 Acerspyro VanessaE: alpha sorting issue should not require shaders
22:58 VanessaE Acerspyro: it doesn't, per se, but it works better with them than without (I don't personally know why)
22:58 Acerspyro It's still an issue...
22:59 VanessaE hmmmm: you know, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if my argument earlier of "inertia" is enough reason.
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23:01 VanessaE how much work would it be?
23:01 hmmmm hm
23:01 hmmmm what, splitting the shaders?
23:01 hmmmm probably not much
23:02 hmmmm i'm not too too interested in that yet though
23:02 VanessaE no, ditching irrlicht in favor of...something else entirely.
23:02 hmmmm it depends on how similar the interface is
23:03 Acerspyro VanessaE: I am for it
23:03 hmmmm my opinion is that it's labor intensive and tedious, but not particularily difficult
23:03 hmmmm Acerspyro:  I don't mean to be rude, but have you talked about coding at all?
23:03 Acerspyro hmmmm: A bit
23:03 hmmmm Acerspyro:  This is a no-BS serious discussion channel
23:03 Acerspyro I am aware
23:04 gregorycu Acerspyro: I'm also sick of your bullshit
23:04 gregorycu You're such a bullshitter and it's annoying me
23:04 gregorycu Fucking bullshitter
23:04 hmmmm lol.
23:05 hmmmm i don't know if it's intentional or not, but gregorycu always has a light tone
23:05 gregorycu It's intentional :)
23:05 hmmmm are you ever angry?
23:05 VanessaE heh
23:05 Acerspyro lol
23:06 gregorycu Do I ever get angry
23:06 gregorycu No, not really
23:06 gregorycu Only at politics
23:07 hmmmm heh.
23:07 hmmmm in any case, i'd like to profile the shaders a bit and see if we can't improve there.  they don't do much right now so they should, theoretically, be very lightweight
23:08 hmmmm the problem is i don't know how to do this
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23:09 VanessaE for me, even basic shaders (as in, no effects, just "Shaders") imposes a significant penalty
23:09 hmmmm :(
23:10 hmmmm you have an ATI card if i recall
23:10 VanessaE (45 fps @ 240 without, versus 42 fps @ 150 with)
23:10 VanessaE and that's on a nearly empty minetest_game test world.  and yeah, an AMD R9 280X.
23:10 hmmmm that's a pretty beefy gpu
23:10 VanessaE yep
23:10 hmmmm but you also have beefy textures
23:10 VanessaE no
23:10 hmmmm like 512 px?
23:10 VanessaE default textures.
23:10 hmmmm i thought
23:10 hmmmm alright that's terrible i'm sorry
23:11 VanessaE I don't use HDX most of the time anymore, minetest just can't hack it these days :(
23:11 hmmmm what do you mean by 'these days'
23:11 VanessaE well there was a time not so long ago where I could expect this scene here to give similar performance with HDX as what I'm getting with default textures now
23:12 hmmmm do you mind bisecting until you find where it started going to shit?
23:12 VanessaE but I can't tell you how long ago it was, or what changed, or if I'm even right
23:12 hmmmm performance is no joke here at Minetest Inc
23:12 VanessaE so for now I've just stopped using HDX and shaders.
23:12 hmmmm okay
23:13 VanessaE could be drivers, could be X, could be minetest, idk.
23:13 hmmmm well go back to something really old
23:13 hmmmm where you absolutely know it worked
23:13 hmmmm it worked in 0.4.8, right?
23:13 VanessaE that would be around 0.4.2-ish
23:13 hmmmm even so
23:13 hmmmm 0.4.2
23:13 hmmmm record performance characteristics with and without shaders
23:14 hmmmm then try out the middle between 0.4.2 and current HEAD
23:14 hmmmm etc.
23:14 hmmmm if 0.4.2 is just as slow we know it's a driver issue and we can't do much about that
23:17 VanessaE lemme see what I can come up with
23:17 VanessaE now mind you, zeno has made many improvements that have helped,
23:18 hmmmm those have nothing to do with the graphics side though
23:18 VanessaE but where he gets say 60 fps 100m view, I would get say a third to one half of that on the same scene
23:18 OldCoder <OldCoder> -    drawtype = "glasslike_framed_optional",
23:18 OldCoder <OldCoder> +    drawtype = "glasslike_framed",
23:18 OldCoder <OldCoder> compunerd recommends this patch to default/nodes.lua
23:19 OldCoder Are changes to default part of #minetest-dev or just for #minetest ?
23:19 VanessaE 0.4.2 is doing 62 fps at 160m view (default).  minimal game, similar scenery to what I had visible in current.
23:19 OldCoder VanessaE, Hi BTW
23:19 VanessaE hey.
23:20 VanessaE default textures, mind you.
23:20 hmmmm wait, first of all, max_fps and wanted_fps are set to some far off number, right?
23:20 hmmmm like 500
23:20 hmmmm second, is that with or without shaders?  also it'd be nice to try with both
23:20 VanessaE hmmmm: default settings, whatever they are, in all cases.
23:21 VanessaE 0.4.2 doesn't appear to support shaders.
23:21 hmmmm ahh ok
23:21 hmmmm in any case
23:21 VanessaE however the speed I got there is clearly faster than I get now, without
23:21 hmmmm fps_max is 60 by default
23:21 hmmmm I want to have a more solid comparison of how much we're losing though
23:21 hmmmm numbers, man.  numbers.
23:21 VanessaE wait, no, current is slightly faster were it not capping
23:22 VanessaE ok hold a bit
23:22 hmmmm yeah change both to 600
23:22 hmmmm wanted_fps and max_fps
23:22 hmmmm no, wanted_fps and fps_max
23:23 hmmmm forget about consistency~
23:23 jin_xi VanessaE: your numbers are terrible, i find it hard to believe! for me mt has really gained speed recently
23:24 hmmmm if the numbers drop for anybody that's cause for concern
23:24 hmmmm we can't let one driver slip in terms of performance for the benefit of others
23:24 * VanessaE waits for the range tuner in 0.4.2 to count up....
23:24 hmmmm yeah, that's been broken for a while hasn't it
23:24 VanessaE it's at a solid 62, so vsync must be limiting it
23:24 hmmmm is vsync enabled?
23:24 VanessaE not in minetest it ain't, and I'm certain it's turned off in my driver as well
23:25 VanessaE 62@160m in 0.4.2 now, and it seems to want to stop there.  lemme see if I can drive it up
23:26 VanessaE how about 28 fps at 445 meters?
23:26 hmmmm yup
23:26 hmmmm okay
23:26 hmmmm try 0.4.6 now
23:27 VanessaE compiling (insert relevant xkcd here)
23:27 jin_xi swordfight?
23:27 VanessaE jin_xi: that's the one.
23:28 VanessaE just to remind, I'm doing these tests with minimal, similar terrain as on git HEAD, default textures
23:29 VanessaE no shaders (where available)
23:29 hmmmm i can't help but have this mental bias that whenever i make a commit i think, "yes, this is the freshest, newest, best minetest yet"
23:29 hmmmm but that's obviously not the case
23:30 VanessaE I'll tell you one thing, the minimal mapgen is fucking QUICK
23:30 VanessaE ok, 23 fps @ 445
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23:34 hmmmm atill no shaders?
23:34 hmmmm still
23:34 VanessaE didn't turn them on for that test, I wanted the numbers' source to be consistent.
23:36 VanessaE minetest_classic is an interesting result.  it settles at ~42 fps @ 99m.
23:36 gregorycu Urgh
23:37 gregorycu What's 99m ?
23:37 VanessaE view range
23:37 gregorycu ok
23:37 gregorycu 99 million?
23:37 VanessaE hm, after a while it stepped up to 38 @ 108, and that's meters silly :P
23:38 VanessaE oh wait a sec, hmmmm that 0.4.6 result had shaders turned on.
23:38 VanessaE I didn't notice.
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23:39 VanessaE lemme retest without.
23:43 VanessaE meh, this is impossible to get consistent tests because of how long it takes to get enough terrain loaded to actually force the view range to go long
23:44 gregorycu I'm fixing the mesh thread now
23:45 VanessaE in 0.4.6, 44 fps @ 146m, no shaders, with tree-laden terrain all the out to the fog limit
23:45 VanessaE lemme test again with 0.4.2
23:46 VanessaE all the way out*
23:50 VanessaE ok, with 0.4.2, no shader support, 62 fps @ 118m
23:50 VanessaE same map and view as the 0.4.6 test
23:51 VanessaE so that's 6424 foo-ops/sec versus 7552 ;)
23:56 VanessaE current dev, 61 fps @ 199m, so it's definitely fastest there
23:57 VanessaE so maybe it's just the behavior of the view range tuner that makes it feel slower?

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