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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-01-18

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Time Nick Message
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03:26 hmmmm erm
03:26 hmmmm why can't you combine anisotropic filtering and mipmapping..?
03:27 hmmmm wait wth, what is with dd_filters
03:27 hmmmm you can most definitely combine bilinear or trilinear with anisotropic
03:27 hmmmm this is retarded, in fact the only options here mutually exclusive with eachother are bilinear and trilinear
03:28 VanessaE well it used to be that you could.
03:28 VanessaE did someone screw up the dropdown?
03:28 hmmmm i don't know, i'm looking at the blame
03:28 hmmmm the fact there's a dropdown altogether is wrong
03:29 VanessaE looks ok to me?  http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/h​obbies/minetest/screenshots/Screenshot%20​-%2001172015%20-%2010%3a30%3a32%20PM.png
03:29 hmmmm oh there are two separate dropdowns
03:30 VanessaE mmhmm
03:30 hmmmm I still don't understand what the point of that is...
03:30 VanessaE because before it was checkboxes, which make no real sense, and we don't have radio buttons I guess
03:30 VanessaE (at the time I added those options, I think all we had were checkboxes)
03:30 hmmmm checkboxes make perfect sense for almost all the options there
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03:31 hmmmm second, there are various levels of anisotropy...
03:31 VanessaE we don't set that at all
03:31 VanessaE I wish we could set that and the scaling algorithm (and the realtime distance scaling algo also)
03:31 VanessaE but I guess the engine leaves those to the discretion of the video driver ala amdcccle or so
03:32 hmmmm well i'm fixing it with the options menu
03:32 hmmmm this is so fucked
03:32 VanessaE what have you got so far?  I'm curious (screenshot that is, since I suck at formspecs)
03:33 hmmmm i can't say i'm shocked but nevertheless disappointed
03:33 Zeno` Add adjustable LoD bias while you're at it
03:33 hmmmm will do.
03:33 VanessaE LoD?
03:33 hmmmm level of detail
03:33 VanessaE ah
03:33 hmmmm for mipmapping
03:33 VanessaE AH
03:33 VanessaE yeah that would be useful
03:33 VanessaE (to some degree)
03:33 hmmmm come on though
03:33 hmmmm how come every single videogame ever made can get this right
03:33 hmmmm but minetest can't
03:34 Zeno` yeah. At the moment the detail "decreases" too rapidly (IMO)
03:34 VanessaE hmmmm: you don't want me to answer that.
03:34 hmmmm are we really that bad compared to other open source video games with very low levels of activity and development?
03:34 hmmmm even openarena
03:35 hmmmm openarena comes off as incredibly amateurish, to me anyway, yet it's so much more polished than this turd
03:35 hmmmm christ
03:35 VanessaE hmmmm: no, it's not so much that.  it's more like a degree of laziness, combined with a small formspec that no one wanted to expand, combined mostly with the fact that few who actively work on this part of the engine actually have high-enough-end gfx for those options to matter.
03:35 VanessaE remember that c55 started this on, what was it, integrated Intel gfx?
03:36 VanessaE getting him to even TRY stuff on the higher-end machine that he had at the time was difficult in the beginning
03:36 hmmmm yeah but
03:36 hmmmm his mission was to make this run well on low end stuff
03:36 hmmmm not necessarily high end too
03:36 VanessaE sure, of course.
03:36 hmmmm which means not bothering with high-end options
03:36 VanessaE but it's all inertia that stemmed from exactly that
03:37 hmmmm for what it's worth, we could do way better in the gfx department
03:37 VanessaE yes, we could.
03:37 hmmmm reflective water shaders?  come on, it's not that it's technically easy to code, but the code for it is so widely available
03:37 hmmmm and like i said
03:37 hmmmm every other game in the universe has it
03:38 hmmmm what about tesselation for the plants and crap
03:38 VanessaE tesselation?
03:38 VanessaE *googles*
03:38 hmmmm rather nevermind on that
03:38 hmmmm irrlicht probably doesn't have support for tesselation
03:38 gregorycu hmmmm: Are you the guy that knows a lot about nodes etc. ?
03:38 VanessaE oh this
03:38 hmmmm the guy that knows a lot about nodes
03:38 VanessaE (I for some reason didn't interpret the word correctly)
03:38 hmmmm wtf is that supposed to mean
03:38 Zeno` merging #2141 unless there is an objection
03:38 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2141 -- Create empty default constructor for MapNode by Zeno-
03:38 gregorycu Ahh Zeno` is here
03:38 hmmmm Zeno`:  seems fine
03:38 hmmmm i saw it before
03:38 Zeno` cool
03:39 VanessaE Zeno`: *shoots off a shotgun into the air*  I OBJECT!
03:39 VanessaE ;)
03:39 hmmmm there are probably plenty of other uses of MapNode ctor with no arguments though
03:39 * Zeno` has earphone on
03:39 VanessaE jk, go ahead and merge
03:40 gregorycu Zeno`: Why does MapNode::getNodeNoEx insert a point into it's area?
03:40 VanessaE hmmmm: now all that said, a lot of us have been trying to improve the graphics in whatever ways we can.  like what I did with meshes in pipeworks and technic in the last few days.  no more thousands of nodeboxes to make complex shapes.
03:40 hmmmm don't you mean VoxelManipulator::getNodeNoEx...?
03:41 Zeno` gregorycu, insert a point?
03:41 gregorycu Sorry, I do
03:41 gregorycu VoxelManipulator
03:41 VanessaE also RBA has spoken in the past about water surface reflections but he's pretty well-set on hardcoding the nodenames et al. because he believes the shader interface will impose such limits
03:41 Zeno` I am refactoring that function today or tomorrow. Funny that you brought it up right now
03:41 hmmmm nobody uses getNodeNoEx
03:42 gregorycu Then I'll stop refactoring
03:42 Zeno` actually no I'm not
03:42 Zeno` different getNode :/
03:42 gregorycu hmm...
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03:44 Zeno` I'm looking at MapBlock::getNode()
03:44 gregorycu Stop being lazy and do them all
03:44 Zeno` too many getNode()'s
03:44 gregorycu What happens when we run out of things to optimise?
03:44 jin_xi lol
03:45 gregorycu I made a funny
03:45 Zeno` MapNode getNode(s16 x, s16 y, s16 z, bool *valid_position) changing to --> bool getNode(MapNode &dest, s16 x, s16 y, s16 z)
03:45 jin_xi you will find there are many suboptimal things
03:45 gregorycu There are a lot less than before
03:45 Zeno` optimise mesh creation
03:45 gregorycu Zeno`: I completly fucked up the rebase
03:45 Zeno` gregorycu, I saw that
03:45 gregorycu There are now 9 checkins rather than 4
03:45 Zeno` gregorycu, it's fixable though :p
03:46 gregorycu So yeah, I asked #github for guidance, nobody got back to me
03:46 gregorycu They are good changes, I think you'll like em
03:47 jin_xi so some things are just not optimal and need optmization. others need discussion and thought. what about that mailing list idea?
03:47 Zeno` I have stopped reading my email
03:47 jin_xi nice
03:47 * acerspyro applauses
03:51 hmmmm https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/ma​ster/builtin/mainmenu/tab_settings.lua#L160
03:51 * hmmmm blinks
03:52 VanessaE hmmmm: I've seen worse than this
03:52 hmmmm no
03:52 hmmmm I don't get it
03:52 hmmmm is this supposed to be inside a function body?
03:52 VanessaE which part?
03:52 VanessaE oh
03:52 VanessaE um
03:53 VanessaE wait what?
03:53 VanessaE ok that's just wrong tabbing
03:53 hmmmm what's the end statement on 246 an end to?
03:54 jin_xi ^
03:54 VanessaE push that end at 246 over under the "return" or everything from 160 on down all the way to the left margin and it's right
03:54 hmmmm how is this valid Lua
03:54 VanessaE it ends the if at line 222
03:54 Zeno` I quite like it
03:54 VanessaE wait
03:54 hmmmm what the fuck
03:54 Zeno` 'tis artistic
03:54 VanessaE that can't be righjt
03:54 hmmmm who coded this shit
03:55 hmmmm okay
03:55 hmmmm that's the end statement to the function 'formspec'
03:55 hmmmm ...
03:55 VanessaE wat
03:55 VanessaE how the hell did you spot that
03:55 hmmmm I'm not sure
03:56 VanessaE so everything from 131 to 159 just needs a tab
03:56 VanessaE brb
03:56 hmmmm everything about that settings reorganization code breaks standards
03:56 hmmmm how did this pass QC
03:56 Zeno` QC?
03:57 hmmmm dammit sapier it's your job to make sure you don't add crap
03:57 acerspyro Quebec
03:57 acerspyro :P
03:57 hmmmm Quality Control
03:57 Zeno` We have a quality control team?
03:57 acerspyro Zeno`: No, but it is the devs' jobs to make sure of it.
03:57 hmmmm the core developers who commit pull requests
03:58 Zeno` I know. I'm being silly again
03:58 hmmmm in any case, i know somebody's reaction is going to be to fix it real quick
03:58 hmmmm don't.. i'm modifying that portion of code
03:58 hmmmm woohoo merge conflicts
03:59 Zeno` what idiot merged that!
04:00 Zeno` who is Zeno`?
04:00 Zeno` I need to speak to him
04:00 jin_xi has anyone here used helicopter mod? it currently breaks at camera_offset.
04:02 Zeno` to be fair I didn't look at that part of the code closely when I merged it because it was mostly existing code with a few changes (looking at the diffs)
04:02 hmmmm ?? i thought it was sapier who merged it
04:02 Zeno` may have been. The commit I merged modified existing code. I'm not going to look further back
04:02 hmmmm oh, that was the follow-up fix commit... grr dammit zeno
04:03 Zeno` nah, look at the diff!
04:03 Zeno` 161- was already there and silly. I still should have noticed it. My bad
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04:06 gregorycu Unbelievable
04:06 gregorycu Somebody fire him
04:07 hmmmm you know performance reviews are rolling around this time of the year
04:07 VanessaE soda -> monitor
04:07 hmmmm keep this crap up and you'll get a 2!
04:07 VanessaE lol
04:07 hmmmm 1.5% raise
04:08 hmmmm no bonus
04:08 VanessaE 1.5%?  damn man, that barely even keeps up with inflation :)
04:08 deezl 0 * 0.015 is....
04:08 hmmmm at my last job i got a 3% raise and i was supposed to be like psyched about that
04:08 hmmmm woot government
04:12 Wayward_One singleplayer is completely unplayable for me now:( http://imgur.com/SP5SiJ3,Pe7lcR2
04:13 hmmmm would you be willing to bisect to the problem?
04:14 Wayward_One i have no idea how iwould even start
04:14 hmmmm hmm
04:14 Wayward_One i'm doing the same thing i've always done ever since discovering minetest
04:14 hmmmm btw, just to make sure, it's the blank item HUD element that you're complaining about, not the cpu usage, right?
04:15 jin_xi its the 20s lag i guess
04:15 Wayward_One oh, you mean what's wrong with the picture. look at the lag in the lower right-hand corner, then look at the mods
04:15 VanessaE ouch
04:15 VanessaE and that's singleplayer
04:16 Wayward_One exactly!
04:16 VanessaE I didn't spot that either at first
04:16 VanessaE you know, someone earlier made the same comment
04:16 VanessaE that singleplayer block placement has really started to lag lately.
04:16 hmmmm yeah..
04:16 VanessaE I don't see that happening myself, though
04:17 hmmmm so when did you all notice it start happening
04:18 gregorycu sapier said it yesterday
04:18 gregorycu But he didn't submit a proper bug report so I ignored him
04:19 Wayward_One for a while now, but i never really payed much attention to it, since i'm usually on multiplayer now. it started affecting me when i began getting into editing mods that needed testing
04:19 VanessaE gregorycu: to that end, so far I have not received any complaints about accessing my servers.  In fact, my total users seems to have roughly doubled over the past few days
04:19 hmmmm merging the network reorganization isn't going to help any with finding the issue
04:19 gregorycu I believe it's common knowledge that singleplayer is slower than multiplayer
04:20 gregorycu VanessaE: That's excellent
04:20 gregorycu How many players is that?
04:20 jin_xi 2
04:20 gregorycu lol
04:20 Zeno` yeah but it shouldn't be *that* slow. I normally launch a local server and connect to 127.0.0.1
04:20 VanessaE hmmmm: one thing I *have* noticed is "connecting to server" seems to take an inordinately long time in singleplayer lately, to a world that has almost nothing built and nothing that could hog CPU
04:20 hmmmm agh
04:20 hmmmm problems everywhere
04:20 VanessaE anywhere from a few seconds longer than normal to upwards of 20 seconds, I'd say
04:21 hmmmm that, i am afraid i haven't noticed
04:21 Zeno` VanessaE, " so far I have not received any complaints about accessing my servers."  should you have?
04:21 VanessaE of course it's dreambuilder here, but still this seems to be more than it normally would be
04:22 VanessaE Zeno`: I've got nrzkt's network rewrite in place
04:22 VanessaE sapier asked me to test it
04:22 Zeno` ah ok. MTZ does as well
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04:28 deezl for what it's worth, anytime I recompile my client, first join on the VE-C and VE-S server takes a really long time (but only the first connect)
04:30 Zeno` I've noticed that valgrind is slower recently. Before I could get 3FPS under valgrind :(
04:31 hmmmm despite all the optimization going on, it keeps getting slower :(
04:32 Wayward_One just tested in a build i kept from roughly august-ish, same mods and everything, yet the lag is below 1 second: http://imgur.com/oEYPfsr
04:33 gregorycu That could be because the server thread is way faster now
04:33 gregorycu Can you let your client sit there for a few min
04:34 Wayward_One ok
04:36 hmmmm Wayward_One, try setting liquid_loop_max to 10000
04:36 hmmmm I'm just curious
04:37 Wayward_One ok, just a sec
04:37 Wayward_One wait, on the old client or my current one?
04:37 hmmmm current one
04:37 Wayward_One ok
04:38 deezl I'm connecting to VE-S right now...extremely slow media load, client is git pull from about 20 minutes ago
04:38 deezl and mobs are unknowns
04:39 VanessaE deezl: the mobs are a mod glitch.  leftovers from transition from "mobs" to "carbone_mobs".
04:39 deezl ah
04:39 VanessaE I need to /clearobjects soon.
04:40 deezl I also forgot to enable cURL
04:40 deezl :/
04:40 VanessaE actually that's a good thouhg
04:41 deezl oh, maybe I didn't need to "USE_CURL=1"
04:41 VanessaE thing*
04:41 VanessaE if cURL is really disabled and your media download is glacially slow, there's a problem
04:41 VanessaE because it wasn't like that before.
04:41 VanessaE (at least not right after that big network refit way back when)
04:48 * VanessaE tries it with cURL for now just to see...
04:48 VanessaE 16 seconds to receive all the media from Creative
04:48 VanessaE 26 seconds to complete the connection
04:48 deezl ouch
04:48 VanessaE (as in, I'm in the world)
04:49 VanessaE that's 36 MB of media mind you
04:49 VanessaE I cleared my cache first
04:49 VanessaE so at least cURL is about as fast as it's ever been
04:50 Wayward_One gregorycu: after letting my old client sit for 14+ minutes (even ran around and mapgenned some) : http://imgur.com/bF1rqs8
04:51 deezl VanessaE, yes, much faster with cURL enabled
04:51 VanessaE lemme rebuild without cURL.
04:51 deezl I got into VE-C pretty quick
04:52 VanessaE hy the way, why is ENABLE_CURL "ON" rather than "1" or "true"?
04:52 VanessaE // Enable cURL support for fetching media
04:52 VanessaE ENABLE_CURL:BOOL=ON
04:52 deezl i did it as -DENABLE_CURL=1
04:52 deezl I did it wrong?
04:53 VanessaE these cmake flags need to be made consistent.
04:53 VanessaE true or false, people.  1/0 sorta makes sense, but ON/OFF?
04:54 VanessaE 521 kB/sec and rising.
04:54 VanessaE peaked at that.
04:54 VanessaE 45 seconds to receive media
04:54 Wayward_One hmmmm, just tested with your suggestion, no change :/
04:54 VanessaE 54 seconds to complete
04:55 VanessaE (obviously the completion time is always the same at 9-10 seconds)
04:55 Zeno` I cannot work this particle thing out :(
04:56 VanessaE Zeno`: what are you working on?
04:56 VanessaE the mem leak in particles?
04:57 Zeno` nah, unitialised values
04:57 VanessaE oh ok
04:57 Zeno` Can anybody make any sense of this: http://dpaste.com/1GCGRWR
04:57 Zeno` the nvidia thing at the start is normal
04:58 VanessaE ok, repeated the cURL test.  13 seconds to get media, 25 seconds to fully into the world.
04:58 Zeno` I've been staring at the files for over an hour. I'm obviously missing something very simple
04:58 VanessaE (using my Creative server as the target).... this is consistent with my experience from right after the big network rewrite
04:59 Zeno` hmmmm, kahrl ^^^^^^
04:59 deezl VanessaE, 23:59:39: ERROR[CurlFetchThread]: http://192.99.11.10/creativ​e-survival-media/index.mth not found (HTTP response code said error) (response code 404)
04:59 VanessaE deezl: ignore that.
04:59 VanessaE the client should not report that as an error.
04:59 VanessaE (I don't use the index.mth style at all)
04:59 deezl ah
04:59 hmmmm wayword_one:  darn.  i had a hunch
05:00 hmmmm in any case, i wouldn't be surprised if that particle thing had a huge memory leak or other baddies
05:00 hmmmm it's crap code
05:01 VanessaE hmmmm: I look forward to jin_xi/ShadowNinja's irrlicht particles code going into mainline
05:01 hmmmm me too
05:01 VanessaE that code can handle orders of magnitude more particles
05:01 hmmmm so do we bother fixing this or wait
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05:02 VanessaE imho get that ^^^ code up to snuff and merge it if you have the resources to work on it
05:02 VanessaE (thing is, by now it's probably in need of a rebase)
05:02 VanessaE last I knew there were problems getting collisions working right?
05:02 Zeno` hmmmm, can you see anything obvious in that valgrind dump?
05:02 VanessaE that was the only hangup
05:02 hmmmm well
05:03 Zeno` I have nfi what is not initialised, but I've probably been looking at it for too long now
05:03 hmmmm i'm looking at it right now
05:03 Zeno` maybe I'll have a rest for an hour and come back to it
05:08 hmmmm you know it could be incorrect due to the union in ClientEvent
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05:08 Zeno` possibly. I was looking at that for a bit as well
05:08 Zeno` but I couldn't see anything obviously wrong
05:08 hmmmm try writing that code the proper way
05:09 hmmmm u32 id = client.particlespawner_add.id; ..
05:09 hmmmm see if that gets rid of the error
05:10 hmmmm ahh okay i see the error
05:10 hmmmm and could you believe it... it was caused by copy & pasting
05:10 hmmmm check out the union value it's using on line 440, and then look at the type of event it's handling within that block
05:10 Zeno` I wish I could find errors by copying and pasting
05:11 hmmmm nevertheless that code is crap and it should be cleaned up
05:11 Zeno` haha
05:11 Zeno` I see it now. I was blind. Thank you
05:11 Zeno` and yes it's terrible code :(
05:11 hmmmm also the lock to find/delete the particlespawner being added should be combined with the new one being added
05:13 gregorycu Thank fuck
05:13 gregorycu #2146
05:13 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2146 -- Water fixes by gregorycu
05:14 Zeno` gregorycu, I told you it was easy
05:14 gregorycu kill me now
05:15 Zeno` hmmmm, the code is so crap it's barely readable
05:15 Zeno` I was whinging about it last night :(
05:16 hmmmm against my better judgement i was the one who actually committed it
05:17 hmmmm at the time i figured, "meh it's okay, i don't want to be TOO naggy and scare off contributors"
05:17 hmmmm yeah... bad idea.
05:17 Zeno` running valgrind again, but I expect there will be no issues now
05:19 hmmmm hmm, gregorycu, how much of an improvement does those things make?
05:19 hmmmm s/does/do/
05:19 gregorycu Each of those 4 changes gave me a noticeable improvement
05:20 gregorycu Sorry, 3 of the 4
05:20 hmmmm also the thumbnail of your github avatar makes you look like a monkey with a baseball cap
05:20 gregorycu I didn't see much of an improvement for commenting out the unused structure, but there was ASM code there
05:20 gregorycu Which disappeared
05:20 gregorycu Thank you
05:20 hmmmm just saying
05:21 Zeno` lol
05:21 hmmmm you need to look closer at it for it to look like a human face
05:21 Zeno` Fortunately my avatar is a very accurate representation of myself
05:22 hmmmm miss piggy?
05:23 Zeno` what?!
05:23 gregorycu lol
05:23 gregorycu hmmmm: Did I do something to offend you?
05:23 hmmmm no
05:23 gregorycu I just look like a monkey. Ok.
05:23 hmmmm from far away
05:23 hmmmm and in black and white
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05:23 hmmmm you need to zoom in on the thumbnail to make it out
05:23 gregorycu You sound like every ex-girlfriend I've ever had
05:24 gregorycu I'll redo it tonight, after a shave
05:24 hmmmm i am actually laughing out loud right now
05:25 gregorycu With regards to the changes, it would be really nice if someone could profile on non-windows for me
05:25 paramat i just noticed 5-10s hangs in v5 mapgen when flying at depth where there is a lot of lava, liquid loop max 10000 fixes it
05:26 Zeno` I'll profile it (in about an hour when this valgrind session finishes)
05:26 gregorycu paramat: My changes should also fix that a little
05:26 paramat good =)
05:26 gregorycu Well, probably a lot
05:27 paramat with 10000 i cannot outfly the mapgen
05:27 Zeno` isn't liquid loop max 10000 the default now?
05:27 paramat nope 100000
05:28 Zeno` the problem with 10000 is that although it will fix one issue it causes another
05:28 Zeno` *sigh*
05:29 paramat whats weird is the amount of lava down there per chunk seems no more than the amount of water at the surface, perhaps the way it is distributed increases liquid processing time
05:30 paramat .. lots of isolated pockets of lava
05:30 Zeno` actually could that be Wayward_One's performance problem?
05:31 Zeno` I doubt it would cause 30s lag, but... who knows
05:33 paramat think i'll go ahead and make a PR in MTgame for a halved liquid range of 4 for lava, might help a little with underground floods
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06:01 hmmmm Zeno`:  No, i had him reduce the limit already
06:01 hmmmm he said it didn't work
06:02 Zeno` ah, cool
06:03 hmmmm gregorycu:  I am very skeptical that changing const std::string &foo to const char *foo will result in a performance increase
06:04 hmmmm could you actually profile that...?
06:04 gregorycu Yes, I even took a look at the ASX
06:04 gregorycu ASM
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06:04 gregorycu It was creating a std::string from the char*
06:04 gregorycu To pass in
06:05 hmmmm what do the numbers say?  can you show the resulting assembly as well?
06:05 paramat i notice with 10000 mapgen does not lag but most of the air-bordering lava i see is non flowing
06:05 hmmmm well yes... you're also creating a std::string in your version of raiseModified
06:05 gregorycu At the bottom
06:05 hmmmm oh
06:05 Zeno` paramat, that's because the queue is increasing in size
06:05 paramat 50000 or 100000 mapgen hangs but most lava is flowing
06:05 Zeno` it will eventually get there and process those nodes
06:05 hmmmm so you're saying you don't want to create unless mod == m_modified
06:06 paramat aha
06:06 gregorycu Yes
06:06 gregorycu That could could be made better
06:06 gregorycu code could
06:06 gregorycu But it's an improvement
06:07 gregorycu Um... I'm in the middle of profiling something else, but I can get numbers for you later
06:07 paramat and my processor is an intel i5, fairly fast
06:07 Zeno` paramat, that's the side-effect I mentioned earlier ;) The queue can actually keep increasing in size without the server ever catching up in some circumstances
06:07 hmmmm I'm looking at all uses of raiseModified right now and it's nearly always MOD_STATE_WRITE_NEEDED
06:07 hmmmm my hunch tells me m_modified is that too
06:07 hmmmm let me see..
06:08 paramat but then v5 at depth is worst case scenario, many tiny pockets of lava next to long tunnels
06:09 hmmmm nice
06:09 hmmmm MapBlock defines m_modified as a u32 instead of ModifiedState
06:09 Zeno` ok, valgrind finished. I told you it would be about an hour
06:09 hmmmm "let's define an enum and not use it as an enum!"
06:09 paramat .. and im flying at 20m/s
06:11 hmmmm gregorycu:  liar.  reason is used in the case where mod > m_modified too, but instead it's implicitly converted to an std::string
06:11 gregorycu ?
06:11 hmmmm gregorycu:  I highly doubt that particular change would make any different in execution time at all
06:12 gregorycu I'll drop what I'm doing now, and take a look
06:12 hmmmm you don't need to
06:12 hmmmm I'm just saying
06:12 paramat .. 50000 is just keeping up with flow, might be a better balance
06:13 Zeno` paramat, possibly. How much RAM is it eating up though?
06:13 hmmmm I need to take a better look at transformLiquids(), but I think it might be beneficial to transform liquids as much as possible in map generation
06:13 Zeno` Also it's processor dependant. The only way to "fix" that code (partially) will be to base it on server_step and time spent in the loop
06:15 Zeno` or do more of it in mapgen
06:15 Zeno` if that doesn't cause huge delays
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06:27 gregorycu hmmmm: raiseModified went from 8% to 1.2% with my change
06:31 gregorycu Probably got inlined in a few places
06:35 gregorycu i gotta run
06:51 hmmmm that would make sense I guess
06:51 hmmmm but I don't get it
06:51 hmmmm is that how I should be writing code?
06:51 hmmmm what I'd like to see is a comparison between assembly output of both versions
06:52 hmmmm in any case, it would be fastest without the std::string there at all
06:53 hmmmm the only place where the modification reason string is used is in mod profiling
06:53 hmmmm not mod profiling, "modprofiler" as in "modified profiler"
06:54 hmmmm we can safely remove it all together
06:54 hmmmm it's mostly useless
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07:11 hmmmm holy shit gregory you're right, it's like twice as fast
07:12 hmmmm I am never passing const std::string &s again
07:15 hmmmm but those C++ people told me this is the "right" way to do things
07:15 hmmmm std::string is the "right" type to use
07:15 paramat zeno, yes exactly, i have no idea if 50000 is high enough to avoid overuse of RAM
07:15 hmmmm const char * is supposed to be the obsolete, bad way of specifying strings
07:16 hmmmm best practices suck
07:16 hmmmm "best practices"
07:18 hmmmm http://fpaste.org/171027/21565489/
07:20 paramat so i have a suggestion for v5: remove all those irritating tiny lava blobs and replace with v7 large caves, then place the remaining dirt/sand/gravel blobs using 'ore claylike' instead. we can then eliminate 2 3d noises 'crumble' and 'wetness' ..?
07:20 hmmmm yeah that's what I wanted to do
07:20 hmmmm i renamed claylike to blob
07:21 paramat i can work on that then
07:22 paramat much less strain on liquid queue also
07:22 hmmmm the better solution is to make the liquid queue better
07:23 hmmmm err, improve the liquid queue*
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07:27 paramat okay guess i'll call v7 large cavegen from within v5 cavegen for now
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07:35 hmmmm maybe the unmangled version can be more readable:  http://fpaste.org/171030/21566446/
07:36 hmmmm and here's the original source: http://fpaste.org/171031/21566563/
07:36 hmmmm so you can see right away it inlined the FooThing ctor
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08:20 gregorycu I'm back, and I'm ready for more
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08:31 Krock is there a way to re-new the "po" files?
08:32 Krock https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=11043
08:34 hmmmm gregorycu:  I did a test on my own and you're right, m_modified_reason = std::string(some_const_char_ptr) is faster, but m_modified_reason = some_const_char_ptr is fastest of all
08:35 hmmmm it directly calls std::string::assign(const char *, size_t) whereas the other allocates and deallocates a std::string object
08:35 gregorycu Yep
08:35 hmmmm it's around 3x faster from my own tests
08:35 gregorycu It's called in a few places, that function
08:36 gregorycu So, it's probably worth it
08:36 hmmmm but you can do even better by removing the string entirely
08:36 hmmmm i looked at it and it's quite useless
08:36 gregorycu Really?
08:36 hmmmm yes
08:36 hmmmm celeron's code tends to be very elegant and complete, but total dogshit when it comes to performance
08:36 gregorycu What... intended... purpose does it have?
08:37 hmmmm profiling how often blocks get modified for what reason
08:37 gregorycu lol
08:37 gregorycu profiling code that has a disruptive impact on profiling
08:37 hmmmm if this functionality is actually needed... it can be done with an enum
08:37 hmmmm but for now i say remove
08:37 gregorycu Can I revisit it?
08:38 hmmmm sure.
08:38 gregorycu I don't want to make functional changes alongside perf ones
08:38 gregorycu And if I do make a functional change, I want it to be a good one, not half-assed
08:38 gregorycu Did you test any of my other changes?
08:38 hmmmm no
08:38 gregorycu ok
08:40 gregorycu Zeno` was gunna do that
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09:45 Zeno` I cannot see any problems with #2146 (apart from easily fixed ones)
09:45 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2146 -- Water fixes by gregorycu
09:46 nrzkt +1
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09:51 kilbith when i read the logs, 100% of what hmmm's says is shitting on everyone/everything :(
09:52 kilbith and almost everyday
09:55 gregorycu Well, better not read sapier's logs
09:56 gregorycu hmmmmm did say I look like a monkey
09:57 Zeno` lol
09:57 Zeno` (sorry gregorycu)
09:57 gregorycu If I were black, that would have been racist or some shit
09:57 gregorycu But I'm as pasty white as they come
09:57 Zeno` he said I look like Miss Piggy!
09:57 gregorycu That made me feel better
09:57 gregorycu He obviously has no idea what he's talking about
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09:59 kilbith i'm more concerned about the "shit" or "crap" code
09:59 kilbith ... he should look into his buggy one instead ...
10:01 gregorycu There seems to be a lot more...
10:01 Zeno` planning to merge #2146 and #2147 soon. Any objections?
10:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2146 -- Water fixes by gregorycu
10:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2147 -- Fix particles causing unitialised data being used due to use of incorrect union member by Zeno-
10:01 gregorycu animosity than what I'm used to in OSS
10:02 Zeno` also #2144
10:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2144 -- Fix use of uninitialized data in Sky and (potentially) GUIChatConsole constructors by kahrl
10:03 Zeno` unless kahrl is here. If he is he can merge it himself :P
10:08 Krock 2147 looks ok
10:11 Krock https://github.com/kahrl/minetest/commit/ad41​d91#diff-13f6d2a2610eb689cc2fd160ee75f115R54 something like "tsrc->tryGetTexture" would be better IMO
10:11 Krock so it's not needed to check if the texture is known or not
10:12 Zeno` it's kind of implied by the use of the ?: ternary operator
10:12 Krock yes I know
10:12 Zeno` although it could still fail even if it's known
10:12 Zeno` so, hmmm
10:13 Zeno` ah, that's dealt with further down
10:16 Zeno` I might leave kahrl's PR until he reads your comments
10:16 Zeno` personally I have no problem with it
10:25 Zeno` I've done nothing today that I'd planned to do
10:32 Zeno` 2146 and 2147 done
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11:08 kahrl Krock: I thought about that but decided against it for now
11:08 kahrl it is too specialized atm (only used in one place)
11:08 kahrl it can be added later if it is needed in more places
11:09 kahrl "tryGetTexture" would invite people to use it even when they rather want getTexture()
11:09 kahrl because tryGetTexture would have strange semantics
11:10 kahrl getTexture("logo.png^[brighten") would return a valid (non-dummy) texture but tryGetTexture("logo.png^[brighten") would return NULL
11:10 kahrl so I think it should be called something like getSourceTexture or tryGetSourceTexture if added
11:10 kahrl brb
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11:23 Krock okay
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12:51 gregorycu He's back, and ready for more
12:52 Zeno` err. Dunno about ready
12:53 Zeno` What is this Kenney guy and his VoXus trying to do?
12:53 Zeno` make us all look incompetent?
13:01 gregorycu Where?
13:01 gregorycu We don't need help doing that!
13:01 kilbith celeron55: VoXus bundled for the next release, what are your thoughts ?
13:01 Zeno` https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=50&t=10895
13:04 gregorycu Oh, I saw that
13:04 gregorycu celeron55 loves it
13:04 gregorycu He actually says we need to do awesome for these guys
13:10 gregorycu Zeno`: I've been optimising again
13:11 gregorycu I think I've found something horribly ineffecient
13:13 Zeno` how unusual
13:15 gregorycu I think you should have spotted it
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13:19 gregorycu When a MapBlockMesh is created, it iterates through many points
13:19 gregorycu Each time, it tries to visit a non-existent node
13:20 gregorycu Each time it reallocates space for those nodes
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13:20 gregorycu Which means, there are a shit load of grow-by-one reallocates
13:25 gregorycu Good news is that it's 15 + 15 + 15 per MapBlockMesh
13:26 gregorycu And not 15^3
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13:37 * Zeno` has had enough
13:37 Zeno` watching tv :(
13:38 gregorycu This is so exciting
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15:53 sapier that singleplayer lag I mentioned yesterday doesn't happen if I don't have pipeworks installed that's why I didn't do a bug report for it.
15:59 T4im btw that entity related leaking seems to have improved a lot after your fixes… at least I didn't manage to fill it up with pipeworks alone yet… what ever seems to still use memory now grows very slowly and could come from anywhere… so… thank you once again… it seems to have worked :D
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16:07 sapier T4im: if you find a way to reproduce it I'll have a look at it at best within a few minutes as running in valgrind slows things down a lot
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16:08 T4im I'll try, but so far I could not find any correlations yet.
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16:38 VanessaE hmmmm: you spoke of needing graphics improvements.  there's one for you:  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2150   (RBA is taking WAY too long with his "hardware lighting" idea imho)
16:40 sapier define "too long"? ;-) I guess it's quite a lot to change
16:40 VanessaE sapier over 6 months?
16:41 sapier I'd consider the whole thing to be about half a year or more development time. As I don't think he's working on it full time (as anyone of us) there's quite some time to go
16:41 VanessaE in this case it's not even hardware lighting that's needed, just consistent face lighting
16:41 VanessaE (did you look at the screenshots?)
16:42 sapier I did not say it's ok I just wanted to make sure everyone is aware about what huge task this is
16:42 VanessaE oh I'm sure it is.
16:43 sapier I agree about shading beeing broken
16:43 VanessaE that's why I'm suggesting that a simpler fix be implemented - all meshes should be flatly lit, like nodeboxes used to be, if they can't be smoothly lit the way regular nodes are
16:43 VanessaE s/used to be/are/
16:43 sapier both on these screenshots are but upper one is less critical
16:44 Calinou if we make all shading flat, hmmm is perhaps going to yell at us
16:44 Calinou because some subgames may not want that
16:44 VanessaE better flat shading than faked shadows that create patters like this
16:44 sapier VanessaE: what's the one you like less?
16:45 VanessaE sapier: what do you mean?
16:45 sapier on your screenshots? upper one creates "steps" while lower one tiles
16:45 VanessaE in the upper screenshot is nodebox-based shapes with standard lighting.  in the second screenshot is the meshnode equivalents, demonstrating the engine's lighting issue.
16:45 VanessaE the problem that the poster (not me) is trying to show is that second screenshot
16:46 VanessaE which I agree looks bad
16:46 VanessaE mesh nodes should be flatly lit as in the nodebox example at the top
16:46 sapier but then they're not nodes
16:46 sapier nodes aren't shaded flat too
16:46 VanessaE I know
16:47 sapier you'd only get a different issue
16:47 VanessaE but flat shading is easier than true shading, and is what nodeboxes do
16:47 sapier do we really have time to waste on half boiled interim solutions?
16:47 VanessaE if you were to display that top screenshot at night with a few torches, you'd notice the flat shading, but no one complains about that really
16:48 VanessaE well no, no one *really* wants a half-baked solution, but in the absence of a proper solution, anything that looks better than screenshot number 2 would be welcome :P
16:49 sapier of course if someone provides that interim solution we could use it but at least I won't push rba to waste time on it while working on a real solution for both node and meshnodes
16:49 VanessaE he's not working on a real solution.
16:49 VanessaE he doesn't have the time
16:49 hmmmm hrm
16:49 hmmmm I agree they should be flat colored
16:49 VanessaE he's been too busy with his day job lately, that's why he hasn't been here
16:49 hmmmm i mean is there a beter way? =/
16:49 VanessaE hmmmm: light them the "right" way like any other engine would, but that would be slower by comparison
16:50 VanessaE flat is better than what they are doing now.
16:50 hmmmm i am not aware of how to do that
16:50 hmmmm let's talk this over
16:50 VanessaE hmmmm: look up gouraud shading
16:50 VanessaE that's the fastest answer :)
16:52 hmmmm alright i guess i should ask this question next:
16:52 hmmmm how are meshnodes implemented right now?  are they a separate mesh from the mapblock or is it merged with the mapblock?
16:52 sapier I'm not sure if this really will be what we want. I fear the negative effects of it don't become obvious for nodeboxes because of their size.
16:52 VanessaE they're part of the same scene node is all I know
16:52 sapier Especially as your screenshots already show what I feared ppl would do once meshnodes are available
16:53 VanessaE sapier: they're T4im's screenshots btw
16:53 hmmmm besides
16:53 hmmmm aren't nodes already gourad shaded?
16:53 VanessaE hmmmm: regular nodes get something like that, yes, if smooth shading is enabled.
16:53 hmmmm lights are specified per vertex and the shading per pixel is interpolated using gourad
16:54 hmmmm something something about the surface normal
16:54 VanessaE but only regular nodes get that
16:54 hmmmm i don't know, really..
16:54 VanessaE pretty much all other drawtypes are flatly lit
16:54 VanessaE (except meshes)
16:57 hmmmm how much are the mainmenu apis used in games for real?
16:58 VanessaE seems to me if you take the vertexes that make up a given poly, calculate the normal vector from those, and then just set the vertex lighting based on "distance" from whatever angle the fake sun is in the scene, that would be close enough.
16:58 sapier if someone knows how to change just do it and see, everything else is speculating
16:58 VanessaE I don't think the main menu API's are used at all in games.
16:58 hmmmm would it be horrible if I tweaked the output of core.get_video_drivers()?
16:59 VanessaE I don't see any reason for that to be passed on to a mod at all
16:59 VanessaE a mod has no reason to know about something as low-level as that, so tweak if you want
17:00 sapier hmmmm: main menu api "l_mainmenu" is mainmenu only
17:01 sapier there are some parts in we don't wanna have in mod api by now
17:44 VanessaE [01-18 12:44] <Builder123@VESv> what would cause updatelistener to fail to -inf,-15993,-475
17:44 VanessaE wow, I haven't see THAT error in ages
17:46 n4x uhh, wasn't that supposed to be fixed?
17:46 VanessaE so I thought
17:46 VanessaE the player says he's just mining straight down using water to control his descent speed
17:47 VanessaE could it be an artifact of nrzkt's pull that I'm testing?
17:47 n4x do you have a link to it?
17:47 VanessaE um
17:47 VanessaE #2119
17:47 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2119 -- Rewrite client/server packet handling by nerzhul
17:48 VanessaE ah, guessed it right on the first try :D
17:53 nrzkt i don't think
17:53 VanessaE ok
17:53 VanessaE just that old bug then
17:53 nrzkt packets are read as server sent to its client
17:55 nrzkt and as client sent to server, but if you have the right packet (opcode) i can look at commit to verify if read is correct, but PR doesn't show that read datas are wrong
17:55 VanessaE don't worry about it then.
17:56 VanessaE it's probably just that same bug that's just remained buried for a long time, just now showing up again.  coincidence.
17:57 nrzkt oky :)
18:00 VanessaE so to that end, no complaints so far
18:00 VanessaE (unless people are just opting not to tell me)
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18:15 hmmmm https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/839c4a99cddcacdc19dee42286b7029c4c1e7800
18:15 hmmmm really?
18:15 hmmmm he's fixing a bug so that makes it okay
18:17 hmmmm for fucks sake
18:17 hmmmm and the commit before that one too, after i explicitly said to not fix that
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18:18 rubenwardy What is that for? -01
18:20 hmmmm there solved
18:20 hmmmm hard reset my own commit on my local repo, rebase to upstream, revert his two wacky commits, then cherry pick my most recent commit
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18:22 T4im rubenwardy: optimization flags, -O0 (oh-zero) means no optimization, and the higher the number the more optimizations are done (a set of predefined ones see http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedoc​s/gcc/Optimize-Options.html)
18:22 rubenwardy Spaces are used here, hmmmm: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/c994b7aa24d7a71d3e71c3f4f757cf7287515968​#diff-b61e3e14dbe70423022f4ee065fa3f94R20
18:23 rubenwardy T4im, I see.
18:23 hmmmm grrrrrrrrr
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18:23 hmmmm my ire
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18:24 hmmmm sware to god
18:25 hmmmm I should figure out how to add a commit hook to github that won't allow pushes to upstream unless it passes a style checking script
18:25 hmmmm this way crap won't be able to get it until it's done the right way
18:25 T4im tried that, its sad how much even a charset detection script slows commits down :/
18:25 hmmmm s/it/in/
18:26 T4im (to prevent those windows users from littering stuff in anything but utf8/ascii)
18:26 hmmmm yeah
18:26 T4im whitespaces are half as bad as having codepage-something-something stuff in there :P
18:27 hmmmm non-utf8, trailing whitespace, not ending a file with a newline, ending a file with too many newlines, incorrect indentation (with some tolerance logic built in to allow exceptions)
18:27 hmmmm detecting use of "and" or "or" operators within C++ source files
18:27 hmmmm crap like that
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18:27 hmmmm all these dumb, low level errors that seem to pop up constantly
18:27 T4im hmm: commit hooks are too slow for that…
18:28 T4im hmmmm: use continues integration for that
18:28 T4im :)D
18:28 hmmmm we doooo
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18:28 T4im well.. is travis configured to throw errors on that stuff?
18:28 hmmmm but merging isn't contingent upon CI pass/fail
18:28 hmmmm i'm afraid that would definitely slow things to a crawl if it hadn't before
18:29 hmmmm thanks for noticing that, rubenwardy.
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18:30 rubenwardy Well come
18:30 rubenwardy * Welcome
18:30 hmmmm the problem with using -O0 (otherwise I would've switched it already) is that it's TOO damn slow for development of most tasks
18:30 T4im plus optimizations can create weird bugs
18:30 T4im the wrong ones anyway
18:31 hmmmm if i didn't have a top-of-the-line processor i wouldn't be able to run minetest with -O0 at all
18:31 T4im oh wait missread you… shouldn't -O0 actually decrease compile time?
18:31 hmmmm yeah, it would
18:31 hmmmm i've been in that place
18:32 hmmmm before i upgraded to what i have now, i was developing minetest on my athlon 64 3500+ ... that didn't work out particularily well
18:32 sfan5 hm
18:32 hmmmm so a decent semi-solution would be to add another level of debugging
18:32 sfan5 couldn't gcc create a .text.debug additionally to .text that gets used when you run an app in gdb
18:33 hmmmm -O0 -g would be the true debug setting, -O1 -g would be good for mapgen development etc.
18:33 hmmmm where you need the speed and you need a rough idea of where crashes are occuring
18:33 hmmmm -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Semidebug
18:36 sfan5 how about -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=RelWithDebInfo
18:40 hmmmm release is -O3
18:40 hmmmm release with debug info would logically be -O3 -g which is absolutely useless
18:41 sfan5 CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS_RELWITHDEBINFO=-O2 -g -DNDEBUG
18:41 sfan5 thats what my cmake says
18:41 hmmmm oh, RelWithDebInfo exists already
18:41 hmmmm but it's -O2 so it's kind of useless
18:43 kahrl there's no reason it couldn't be changed
18:44 hmmmm I don't really like the name
18:46 hmmmm is RelWithDebInfo a CMake-specific thing?  I can't see it referenced anywhere except in the cmakecache.txt and readme
18:46 sfan5 yes, cmake does that
18:46 sfan5 there is also MinSizeRel which uses "-Os -DNDEBUG"
18:52 hmmmm can you define your own?
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18:54 sfan5 dunno
18:59 kahrl http://www.cmake.org/Wiki/CMake_FAQ#How_can_I_​extend_the_build_modes_with_a_custom_made_one_.3F
18:59 hmmmm also
18:59 hmmmm I tried reading how to specify a certain compiler to use with cmake, the answer I got was from the cmake mailing list telling me to simply set my CC and CXX environment variables
19:00 hmmmm did that, no dice.  anybody know if I'm doing something wrong?
19:02 * shadowzone pokes sapier
19:02 sapier shadowzone:  what's up?
19:03 shadowzone I am testing the android release and I was wondering how I'd run the .apk
19:03 Calinou enable Unknown Sources?
19:06 shadowzone nevermind, I figured it out
19:06 sfan5 hmmmm: tried rm -R CMakeCache.txt CMakeFiles
19:06 sfan5 setting $CC and $CXX works for me
19:06 hmmmm I need to delete CMakeFiles too?
19:07 hmmmm ahh
19:07 hmmmm that would do it.. CompilerIdCXX
19:08 hmmmm thanks sfan
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20:04 hmmmm :/
20:04 hmmmm I can't use gcc 4.8 with minetest or so it seems
20:05 hmmmm it won't use the correct libstdc++ directory
20:05 kahrl 4.8.3 works here
20:06 hmmmm yea, you're not using freebsd though
20:06 hmmmm :p
20:06 kahrl indeed ;)
20:06 hmmmm I need it to link against /usr/local/lib/gcc48/libstdc++.so.6 somehow
20:06 hmmmm argh
20:07 hmmmm I am aware of LD_LIBRARY_PRELOAD, before you mention that, but it's obviously hacky
20:08 kahrl I won't mention anything because I have no clue about the bsds
20:09 hmmmm so..
20:09 hmmmm - why does the -Wno-set-but-unused-variable option not get set when I try to compile with gcc 4.8?  the code in theory should work but I guess it's broken
20:10 hmmmm - why is that warning disabled at all?  it seems all the warnings it produces are legitimate enough
20:10 kahrl cmake filters some compiler flags depending on the compiler but iirc it's badly documented how that works
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21:24 hmmmm yeah
21:25 hmmmm so anyway I doubt this works under MSVC
21:26 hmmmm a lot of this makefile seems arbitrary - like why is -fomit-frame-pointer not defined for APPLE?
21:28 hmmmm also i'm not sure if this is a mistake, but CXX flags aren't custom set for RELEASE under MSVC
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22:17 hmmmm too bad gcc GNAT is only for ada
22:57 est31 hello, how can I activate the lua profiler?
22:57 est31 does it send the results to the client or into a file
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23:36 ShadowNinja est31: Minetest doesn't have a built-in Lua profiler.  Use an external Lua profiling tool.
23:37 est31 ok thanks didnt kno
23:37 est31 w
23:41 VanessaE ShadowNinja: sure it does.
23:41 VanessaE sapier added it recently.
23:41 ShadowNinja VanessaE: Oh, that thing...
23:41 VanessaE yeah
23:41 VanessaE I just don't remember how to use it
23:41 ShadowNinja I'm not sure what that does or if it's actually helpful.
23:42 VanessaE I guess it's not quite valgrind but it measures CPU time taken by different mods and engine calls
23:43 VanessaE it's how I was able to get the speed and latency of plantlife down to where it is
23:43 VanessaE but sapier did all the profiling :)
23:45 ShadowNinja est31: There's a thing that meassures time from some callbacks.  Other callbacks won't work though.  You can enable it with enable_mod_prifiling = true or something like that.
23:46 VanessaE I guess you'll have to measure by reading os.clock, est31 ..
23:46 VanessaE or core.get_us_time
23:47 ShadowNinja ^ That works too if you know where the bottleneck is or just want to see the difference that an optimization makes.
23:48 est31 I know it is in one method
23:49 est31 why core.get_... not minetest.get_...
23:50 VanessaE seemed right is all.
23:51 VanessaE (I'm actually a tad unclear on which cases should call for core.*)
23:51 est31 minetest really should still cleanly shut down on lua errors... all clients left knowing
23:51 est31 not knowing
23:51 VanessaE it used to inform the client didn't it?
23:51 est31 not anymore
23:51 VanessaE or at least the client would stop being able to update its yaw
23:51 est31 at least not for the kind of error I got
23:52 est31 thought you meant get_os_time
23:52 VanessaE if you froze up, you knew you disconnected
23:52 est31 was wrong
23:52 ShadowNinja est31: That's mainmenu-only.  os.clock works fine.  sapier says it's very imprecise on linux, but my experience if that it's plenty precise.
23:52 VanessaE no, us_time
23:53 est31 ok scanning 4.8k blocks takes 21 ms...
23:53 est31 wait wrong channel
23:54 est31 (no core issue)
23:54 VanessaE oh well
23:54 VanessaE it's not like there was a big in-depth discussion going on in here :P

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