Time Nick Message 00:00 celeron55 wait what, i failed to actually remove these mods 00:02 celeron55 what i described was still the combination of homedecor+moreblocks+paragenv7 00:02 celeron55 if that can barely make it, i'll have no issues whatsoever 00:03 celeron55 yes, minetest_game+paragenv7 starts at under 90MB 00:03 paramat lol 00:04 celeron55 and i start on a typical mini island with nowhere to go, thank you mgv5 00:06 celeron55 having travelled some distance, it's 187M 00:07 celeron55 the generation speed is quite slow 00:07 celeron55 how much more speed do you think you can get out of this? 00:09 sapier none map generation is primary bottleneck on android devices 00:09 paramat a little more, not sure how significant 00:09 sapier once map is there it's ok but I've never seen a device beeing capable to generate it as fast as you can walk ... maybe latest quad core phones 00:10 paramat generating the trees is slow but you can control the density of those 00:11 paramat except ... jungles don't look right unless they're thick, it's fun to jump from tree to tree 00:11 celeron55 well, v6 generates quite fast enough 00:12 celeron55 lol good luck jumping from tree to tree on a touchscreen, or getting on a tree in the first place 00:12 paramat otherwise i would suggest ethereal or BFD that use the core biome API 00:14 paramat well, paragenv7 needs updating anyway so i'll do that, give me a day and you could try it again with the slight performance increases 00:16 kilbith ShadowNinja: tabs instead of the checkboxes, and description below the list would be OK for you ? 00:16 kilbith checkbox* 00:18 kilbith lemme know here, will read the logs tomorrow. 'night. 00:20 paramat an alternative would be me squeezing paragenv7 into the biome API and trees into schematics, that would speed things up a lot. need a few days for that 00:20 paramat but not difficult. all trees would be identical though apart from rotation 00:22 celeron55 i do know the speed of the biome api and schematic trees and it would be very beneficial to this 00:23 celeron55 as i said, i don't care for map generator changes for this so it's fine to use an unstable api 00:24 paramat okay well i'm happy to do that it's not much work 00:24 celeron55 can you recall what parameter of v5 changes the height of the terrain 00:26 celeron55 i mean, like, the steepness of the hills 00:27 celeron55 it's np_factor i think 00:31 paramat yeah factor, but that's range limited, so icrease 'scale' of np_ground instead 00:31 paramat *increase 00:36 celeron55 with np_ground i can also decrease the general amount of water too 00:36 celeron55 let's see 00:37 celeron55 wait, how can these even be set in the first place 00:39 celeron55 if i try to copy mgv5_np_ground from map_meta.txt to the game's minetest.conf, it fails saying "terminate called after throwing an instance of 'SettingNotFoundException'" "Setting [mgv5_np_ground] is a group." 00:40 celeron55 oh well, i'll just modify the engine source 00:40 celeron55 #yolo 00:41 paramat the params need to be in group format because eased noise is specified, see docs 00:42 hmmmmm paramat, you could use my tree schematic, but it doesn't have y slice probabilities 00:42 paramat or rather see .coonf.example 00:42 celeron55 this page mentions nothing about that http://dev.minetest.net/Mapgen_Parameters 00:43 hmmmmm lol that's outdated 00:43 celeron55 paramat: i wrote them in group format because that's the format they were in in map_meta.txt 00:43 paramat thanks hmmmm but i'll save schematics from paragenv7 since those appletrees are different 00:44 paramat yeah sorry i just realised you probably got it right 00:44 paramat another way to increase performance is to use non-eased 3D noise, but the cave width will have to be retuned 00:45 paramat i understand original v5 was non eased and spikier 00:47 hmmmmm hrmmm so you're running into memory problems 00:47 hmmmmm lots of stuff in minetest sacrifice low memory usage for execution speed 00:48 hmmmmm i know it'd probably make an insiginificant difference, but i bet some memory could be saved by not allocating like 3-4 buffers for each noise object 00:48 celeron55 no i'm not 00:48 paramat to un-ease 3D noise delete the noise 'flags' parameter 00:48 celeron55 it happened only because i attempted to run homedecor on a mobile phone 00:48 hmmmmm oh.. vanessae's mods seem to target power users 00:49 celeron55 which is frankly ludicrous, but i tried it 00:49 hmmmmm [07:39 PM] if i try to copy mgv5_np_ground from map_meta.txt to the game's minetest.conf, it fails saying "terminate called after throwing an instance of 'SettingNotFoundException'" "Setting [mgv5_np_ground] is a group." 00:49 hmmmmm that shouldn't happen... 00:51 hmmmmm somebody tried using get() directly on mapgen params which is bad, Settings::getNoiseParams() should always be used instead which reads it as a table just fine 00:51 hmmmmm if i recall correctly, i fixed all instances of that, so it a mod must be the culprit 00:51 hmmmmm s/it// 00:52 celeron55 why would a mod read mgv5 parameters 00:52 celeron55 that isn't happening 00:56 hmmmmm shrug 00:56 hmmmmm i just tried doing exactly what you said and i don't get the error 00:57 hmmmmm it's either a mod, or it was a bug that got fixed between now and when the binaries you're using were built 00:58 celeron55 that would be between 0.4.11 and master; can you confirm the possibility? 00:58 hmmmmm why not just try disabling all mods 00:59 celeron55 i have rather lot going on right now, this issue is not my priority 00:59 hmmmmm i hadn't made any changes to settings between 0.4.11's release and now 00:59 celeron55 i'm moving on already 01:05 hmmmmm hrmmm 01:45 ShadowNinja celeron55: I feal like releasing to the play store now would just be a good way to accumulate a lot of unfavorable reviews. 01:46 ShadowNinja kilbith:No, keep the checkbox, and the description is good at the side. 01:46 celeron55 ShadowNinja: i will not give any value to this comment unless you can tell me WHEN to release it instead 01:47 hmmmmm once client-side scripting has been established and most of the lingering issues have been solved 01:47 celeron55 what, that's like 2 years of development 01:47 hmmmmm not so 01:47 ShadowNinja celeron55: When it's faster and less hacky and buggy. I can't really specify exactly when though. 01:47 celeron55 no that's not how minetest's releases have ever been made 01:47 hmmmmm did you see my client side scripting requirement list 01:48 celeron55 no 01:48 ShadowNinja There are definitely a lot of bugs, I have like two lists, and I've heard of a few more today. 01:48 hmmmmm also, i have greater confidence in minetest stability with the new releasing procedures 01:48 hmmmmm celeron55: the tl;dr is that I have a solid plan and now all there's left is to execute it 01:48 celeron55 what's the timeline 01:49 hmmmmm that i don't know unless i make this more than a one man thing 01:49 ShadowNinja celeron55: Usually it's just "release when enough stuf's accumulated, usually a few months." 01:49 hmmmmm the only reason i've had this burst of activity is because of the long christmas vacation 01:50 hmmmmm after all this development i'd still have to say things aren't in a 'happy place' yet 01:51 celeron55 waiting for longer for what i'm doing (longer than maybe letting paramat do a quick port of paragenv7 on the old biome api) makes no sense; you aren't focusing on the things that people will not like about this anyway 01:51 celeron55 the largest issue with this is that the UI is shit 01:51 celeron55 but that's not on your list 01:51 hmmmmm well for what it's worth, I am working on an options menu right now 01:52 celeron55 and the main issue with the UI is that it's not scaled to the full screen and the scrollbars don't function like you'd expect and stuff like that 01:52 hmmmmm that part is all sapier 01:52 celeron55 which is quite deeply rooted to the nature of irrlicht and formspecs 01:52 celeron55 yes, this is a reason i don't have to wait for you 01:52 hmmmmm kahrl and sapier do formspec, i don't 01:53 hmmmmm formspec and irrlicht gui related things are a totally different brand of nasty that i'm not willing to step foot into 01:53 hmmmmm so i don't get it 01:53 celeron55 the other issue is performance, but you aren't doing anything to that either; you're just making things that are now not even considerable to run on this thing a bit more considerable; it won't affect the speed of this set-up that i'm going to ship on the play store 01:54 hmmmmm in order to make the GUI good you basically need to create your own widget toolkit 01:54 celeron55 i'm mostly replying to shadowninja 01:54 hmmmmm i don't think we'll be successful hacking on more irrlicht stuff 01:55 hmmmmm mesh making I could work on a bit, but i'm not overflowing with graphics knowledge 01:58 ShadowNinja celeron55: There were a number of significant performance improvements recently. The UI code is big and sapier's the only one that really knows it. I don't know much about anything Irrlicht either. 01:58 hmmmmm those were all cpu bound though 01:59 hmmmmm and consisted of removing C++-isms that add slowness 01:59 ShadowNinja RBA, kahrl, and you probably know the audiovisual stuff best. 01:59 celeron55 yes, the fact that there were improvements means further improvements are likely to be much harder and now it's a good time to publish it 01:59 hmmmmm I'd rather not publish it until the outstanding mobile formspec issues get fixed 01:59 * ShadowNinja pulls up one of his bug lists. 02:01 celeron55 i've solely worked on making the current android port work in a reasonable manner focusing on the general user experience for 12 hours now 02:01 celeron55 i can tell you that this was totally unusable when i started and now it's much less so 02:01 ShadowNinja celeron55: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/9679921/ 02:01 celeron55 and i can tell you that i'm not going to spend much more than this on it for now 02:02 ShadowNinja celeron55: Other users are probably going to have scaling issues like you, and they aren't going to accept "edit this text file" as a solution. 02:03 celeron55 i didn't edit any text file 02:04 celeron55 you don't have to jump now that the player climbs 1-node steps by just walking 02:04 celeron55 users don't care about logcat or logs whatsoever 02:04 celeron55 crouch is... questionably useful in any case 02:04 ShadowNinja celeron55: Dodn't you have to edit minetest.conf to set gui_scaling? 02:05 celeron55 i don't have multi-second lag in singleplayer once the map has generated, and you generally end up in a situation like that after a while 02:05 celeron55 ShadowNinja: no, i just restarted the game; it fails to save the settings which is handy 02:06 celeron55 and the default scale works kind of okay for tablets; it's not optimal but usable 02:06 ShadowNinja celeron55: Um, well that's a significant bug. 02:07 celeron55 yeah but doesn't matter if you just hit "singleplayer" and build a house to kill some time 02:08 ShadowNinja celeron55: You should remove the settings menu if it doesn't actually work persistently. It worked before. 02:08 celeron55 lol 02:08 celeron55 you should work on it instead of arguing with me about things i already know better 02:08 kahrl why not add a line like this in GUIFormSpecMenu somewhere: if (formspec size > screen size) { reduce the scaling factor until this is no longer the case } 02:09 kahrl very simplistically speaking of course 02:09 celeron55 it should go the other way too on android so that the screen would always be fully used 02:09 kahrl true 02:10 celeron55 anyway, my point is, we can't get a polished android experience with this technology 02:11 celeron55 we just can't; we can only declare a point where it's sufficiently non-horrible to be given to users without wasting their time 02:11 hmmmmm i agree... wtf is the point of having unused space on the mainmenu on a mobile device 02:11 hmmmmm note that i don't even have a mobile device so i can't go testing or working on that 02:12 celeron55 be glad you don't, you couldn't tolerate the total non-quality MT is on such 8))) 02:12 kahrl about the performance issues, how much could a texture atlas help on mobile? 02:12 hmmmmm from what celeron says, a lot 02:13 celeron55 in this case, dunno 02:13 kahrl we already had some code for doing that so it shouldn't be completely out of reach to add that 02:13 hmmmmm he wants us to readd the texture atlas 02:13 celeron55 my device feels like being limited by vertex count, in which case texture atlases and opengl object counts do not matter 02:14 celeron55 and neither VBOs 02:14 celeron55 but i'm not sure 02:14 hmmmmm do we have an overdraw problem, I wonder? 02:15 celeron55 i mean, this is running at a view range of 20 02:15 celeron55 i can't open the profiler to check what the meshbuffer counts are though 02:15 ShadowNinja hmmmmm: Yes, because the culling is no good. 02:15 celeron55 probably <50 02:16 hmmmmm supposedly the hardware occlusion culling blows horribly 02:16 hmmmmm that's the reason why I put that entire thing on pause 02:17 celeron55 there's no hardware occlusion culling 02:17 hmmmmm occlusion query rather 02:17 celeron55 and that's a heavy operation anyway 02:18 celeron55 in buildat i have the option to use urho3d's generic occlusion culling capability (it's just a flag you set for each mesh); i'm not sure how it works but it kind of varies between improving and degrading performance, depending on what one is looking at 02:19 hmmmmm soo much work needs to be done on the client side :/ 02:19 celeron55 i think i ended up just turning it off 02:19 hmmmmm celeron, you should work on minetest with us! 02:19 hmmmmm it'll be great i promise 02:21 kahrl something I've just noticed while looking at the game in wireframe mode: 02:21 kahrl the maximum number of identical-material faces that are ever combined into one is 2 02:21 hmmmmm caves get drawn, right? :/ 02:21 celeron55 i won't spend a lot of my time on a thing that i personally won't use; that's just a matter of fact 02:21 kahrl that might explain the vertex count problem 02:21 hmmmmm ahh 02:22 hmmmmm celeron, why don't you use it? 02:22 celeron55 kahrl: even with allowing chains of 16, with smooth lighting the most benefit you get is generally like 10% 02:22 hmmmmm because of the problems or you just don't care for it anymore 02:23 celeron55 kahrl: because you need the vertices for setting the lighting 02:23 celeron55 in caves you don't get even that 02:23 celeron55 not even with non-smooth lighting 02:23 kahrl is there any downside to allowing chains of 16? 02:23 celeron55 it just is an almost useless optimization, buildat doesn't do it at all for this reason 02:24 kahrl I mean if you make the terrain less hilly on android, the benefit will be greater 02:24 kahrl and in a cave there is not that much to render anyway (assuming the occlusion culling doesn't completely fail) 02:24 celeron55 texture atlases become a problem when you need to connect vertices of rotated nodes and have a repeated texture on them 8) 02:25 celeron55 minetest originally had stripes of 16 textures in the atlas for this purpose 02:25 kahrl ah I see 02:25 celeron55 well, it still would work as long as grass nodes don't get facedir set on them 02:26 celeron55 and if they would, it wouldn't be tileable anyway 02:26 celeron55 trying to maintain that 10% optimization with this texture-based style is a losing game 8) 02:26 celeron55 unless you actually generate combined textures for mapblocks on the fly 02:27 celeron55 that's what the one guy did that has the blog with 100 posts with the voxel engine that isn't in actual use 02:27 kahrl heh 02:28 kahrl that sounds incredibly expensive if you use HD textures though 02:28 celeron55 if you generated them like that, you'd probably get a 2x or more optimization on regular generated grass 02:28 celeron55 it probably is 02:29 celeron55 the modern solution to all of this would probably be some shader code which can rotate textures or something 02:30 celeron55 this all is weird because other games don't deal with these kinds of issues 02:35 celeron55 this will finish uploading in 15 minutes: http://packages.8dromeda.net/minetest/Minetest-0.4.11-8dromeda-1-rc1.apk.part 02:35 celeron55 i'll make a poll on the forum tomorrow asking whether people think it's a fine enough initial official google play release 02:36 celeron55 (there's 8dromeda all over that url because my google play account is with that name too; it's under what i develop my solo projects) 02:37 celeron55 oops, i mean, http://packages.8dromeda.net/minetest/Minetest-0.4.11-8dromeda-1-rc1.apk 02:37 kahrl ok, judging by http://tomcc.github.io/images/cull_after.jpg, MCPE doesn't need face combining 02:38 kahrl afaik they also have multiple textures for some common nodes that are chosen pseudo-randomly so it wouldn't work anyway 02:40 celeron55 hmmmmm: after 1 year of development, i was interested in a different game than the community and it's gone to that direction for all the time 02:40 celeron55 since then, i mean 02:41 hmmmmm you were looking to make an actual game kind of game 02:41 hmmmmm what do you think about voxellands/minetest classic 02:41 celeron55 yes; not a house builder 02:41 hmmmmm but programming is fun 02:41 hmmmmm the game part of minetest is writing mods 8) 02:41 celeron55 i have better projects for programming 02:41 VanessaE + 02:41 hmmmmm this is your fault 02:41 hmmmmm you did it with the addition of lua api 02:42 celeron55 well frankly it was the best the project could have had; you all are here because of it 02:42 hmmmmm i have a lot more work to do on it thanks to modding 02:43 hmmmmm it's apparently not enough to do task X 02:43 hmmmmm it needs to be completely configurable, have an excellent interface, have every single edge case working 100%, documented, etc. 02:43 hmmmmm honestly i came here because i wanted to figure out how to make the terrain flatter so i could actually build buildings 02:44 celeron55 you don't have to make the content thanks to modding 02:44 hmmmmm hahaha yes you do 02:44 hmmmmm the assets suck ass 02:44 celeron55 if there weren't modding you'd have to yourself imagine the biomes that the users want, and the mobs and everything 02:44 hmmmmm nobody's made half decent sounds 02:44 celeron55 and chances are because they would be yours, nobody would help you 02:44 celeron55 and everyone would complain 02:45 hmmmmm they seem to lap up minecraft though 02:45 hmmmmm they love that shit 02:45 hmmmmm they EAT the slop! 02:45 celeron55 frankly, i might work on minetest if i could make money of it 02:46 hmmmmm haha 02:46 celeron55 but that's not going to happen 02:46 hmmmmm hey have you updated noise.cpp in buildat lately? 02:46 twoelk|2 from the mc players I know it is more a combination of love and hate 02:46 celeron55 i'm not working on buildat, so no 02:46 hmmmmm oh, you should, it's gotten better 02:46 hmmmmm more organized 02:49 celeron55 anyway, the charm of minetest originally was that i could slap together any kind of crap i wanted with the amount effort i felt like and publish it, and people had fun with it 02:49 celeron55 it's pretty difficult to do that now 02:50 hmmmmm why do you suppose that is? 02:50 celeron55 there are these pesky other people around that think they're developers or something 02:51 hmmmmm haha 02:53 celeron55 i mean 02:53 celeron55 after all these concerns that were now said, i don't feel like putting the apk up on google play at all anymore 02:53 celeron55 i feel like moving to work on my solo projects where i don't need to listen to naysayers 02:54 celeron55 and put anything i want on google play 02:54 celeron55 and elsewhere 02:55 ShadowNinja Forum poll sounds good. I'd like to see your fixes merged though. 02:55 celeron55 most of them are hacks, not fixes 02:56 ShadowNinja Well, made into fixes and merged them. :-) 03:19 hmmmmm i am getting so upset with irrlicht 03:19 hmmmmm it's not calling the correct (useful) constructor 03:55 hmmmmm we desperately need to fix config files 03:56 hmmmmm prefix options that affect the client with cl_, server options with sv_ 03:56 hmmmmm or perhaps wrap them in a settings group 04:03 * kaeza mumbles something about [sections] 04:04 VanessaE or just split them into separate files. 04:04 VanessaE we can already do that now 04:05 VanessaE (after a fashion) 04:10 hmmmmm true 04:11 hmmmmm i'm just thinking how easily it can get jumbled up if you don't use minetest.conf.example 04:11 VanessaE indeed. 04:11 hmmmmm anyway 04:11 hmmmmm i'm not so sure how i'm going to do this 04:12 hmmmmm right now i have the options menu taking up the entire screen 04:12 hmmmmm sort of ugly with the text in the background though and the transparency 04:12 hmmmmm what do you guys think? 04:12 hmmmmm really? big menus like that deserve the entire screen 04:47 ShadowNinja hmmmmm: There should be several pages of settings. Eg, xonotic has audio, video, effects, user, misc, player... 04:48 hmmmmm i have it: 04:48 hmmmmm Game Options, Video Options, Sound Options, Control Options, Multiplayer Options 04:49 hmmmmm things like view bobbing amount and fall bobbing amount should probably go into a Player Options 04:49 hmmmmm Multiplayer Options should be changed to Server Options or something 05:04 hmmmmm hmm 05:04 hmmmmm android doesn't have tooltips so i need another way to explain the options for mobile 05:06 VanessaE press-and-hold for a popup? 05:06 hmmmmm no idea how to do this or even attempt to 05:06 VanessaE or maybe a widget that you can drag around that gives help as it crosses over an item? 05:07 hmmmmm i like the second idea 05:07 VanessaE if screens that could detect hovering a finger (like on Galaxy S4) were more common, I'd just suggest that 05:07 ShadowNinja hmmmmm: There are a lot of visual options, said game splits it into video and effects, you hay have to do something similat. 05:08 hmmmmm yeah 05:08 hmmmmm shaders and related things should count as being an effect 05:09 ShadowNinja hmmmmm: Also, the current setup if pretty horrible, with 5+ lines to handle just setting every indifidual option. That should be cleaned. 05:09 hmmmmm then there's shit like screen dpi that i have no idea aboy 05:09 hmmmmm about* 05:09 ShadowNinja That would be video. 05:09 hmmmmm my way takes like 5 lines total 05:10 hmmmmm whoever coded most of the current shit is dum 05:10 ShadowNinja aniso, mip-map, etc are also effects. 05:10 hmmmmm nope 05:10 hmmmmm that's definitely video options tab material 05:10 ShadowNinja video is just basic stuff like resolution. 05:11 ShadowNinja At least that's how xonotic does it. 05:11 hmmmmm they're dum 05:11 ShadowNinja It works well. 05:12 hmmmmm i could poop on a piece of paper that has 'options' written on it and that'd work well 05:13 hmmmmm we just need to have *an* options page 05:13 hmmmmm as it exists it's quite pathetic 05:14 hmmmmm so I'm thinking things such as dpi, hud options, tooltip delay amount, etc... they need to go into some sort of "2d gui" settings section 05:14 hmmmmm tooltip show delay shouldn't even be user-configurable. that's just configuration insanity 05:16 hmmmmm so fahnny quit message 05:16 Wayward_One i couldn't resist xD 06:23 paramat hmmmmm in 0.4.11 stable the z component of 2D perlinmap size is actually necessary to avoid crashes, z=1 is required 06:24 paramat otherwise 'Error in `./minetest': corrupted double-linked list: 0x00007f89b82170d0' 06:24 paramat either that or segfault 06:56 hmmmmm hrmmm 06:56 hmmmmm well that's interesting 06:56 hmmmmm i checked it out, and it shouldn't be necessary 06:57 hmmmmm reason being that when you pass the Z component into the ctor it compares <= 1 for deciding whether or not it's 3d 06:57 hmmmmm rather > 1 06:58 hmmmmm so if z is 0 (which it is as the default value) or a negative number, then is3d == false 06:58 hmmmmm ahhhhh 06:58 hmmmmm that only works for the noise buffer, not the interpolation buffer 06:58 hmmmmm i need to fix this 07:00 hmmmmm when i initially looked at it, i was pleasantly surprised at how the problem of not having to specify a z param works itself out but i guess i was wrong 07:27 paramat hmmmmm, i was just looking at your lvm mapgen example, should update_liquids be before write_to_map or after? i have always placed it after, in your example it is before 07:27 hmmmmm actually it doesn't matter 07:27 paramat okay good 07:28 hmmmmm hrmm 07:28 hmmmmm wondering if I should add a "Show Advanced Options" button for the Video tab 07:46 VanessaE hmmmmm: +1 07:47 hmmmmm what's an advanced option is up for debate however 07:47 hmmmmm i'm going to leave that up to you people to decide 07:47 VanessaE hmmmmm: anything your average dumb user won't understand :PO 07:47 VanessaE :P 07:47 VanessaE really though, all the shader stuff belongs there probably 07:47 hmmmmm well I have the basic options as: 07:48 hmmmmm video driver, resolution, fullscreen, vsync, mipmaps, anisotropic filtering, bilinear/trilinear filtering, fsaa, smooth lighting 07:48 VanessaE hrm 07:49 hmmmmm advanced.. oh man, that's a clusterfuck 07:49 VanessaE smooth lighting is a basic thing, video driver and fullscreen too, resolution maybe also. the rest? advanced. 07:49 hmmmmm enable_particles, enable_waving_*, enable_fog, directional_colored_fog, etc. 07:49 hmmmmm well 07:49 hmmmmm on the scale from basic to really freaking advanced 07:49 hmmmmm those are fairly basic compared to the other things 07:49 VanessaE true 07:50 hmmmmm like... desynchronized mapblock texture animation? 07:50 hmmmmm parallax occlusion bias? 07:50 VanessaE but the average user won't know what FSAA even *does* or that ^^ one either 07:50 hmmmmm yes they do 07:50 hmmmmm they see it in like every video game ever 07:50 VanessaE (and desync, you almost never want to expose, btw) 07:51 VanessaE ok I'll agree with you on FSAA I guess 07:51 VanessaE I'm too used to dealing with kids that don't even know how to google something :-/ 07:51 hmmmmm i'm sure the average PC gamer will notice their game looks all pixelly and say to themselves, "i'm going to look in the graphics options menu and see if i can find "antialiasing" or "aa" or "fsaa" " 07:56 hmmmmm what do you guys think about biomes overriding settings such as water_wave_height/water_wave_length/water_wave_speed? 07:56 hmmmmm or enable_clouds 07:56 hmmmmm if you're in hell you probably don't... want clouds 07:56 hmmmmm or an alien planet 07:57 VanessaE actually that's not a bad idea 07:57 VanessaE I've wanted, for a long while, to be able to specify the cloud height from the server at least. 07:58 VanessaE and disabling clouds would be surely wanted on e.g. moontest 07:58 hmmmmm on minecraft i think clouds are decided server-side 07:59 VanessaE (I forgot/wasn't ware that the wave height/speed/length was configurable) 07:59 VanessaE aware* 08:00 leat /bye 08:00 leat whoops 09:27 kilbith sfan5, the local map saving ought 1) save in its own dir 2) save the worldmods 09:27 sfan5 worldmods? 09:28 sfan5 how exactly is it supposed to do that 09:28 sfan5 it could theortically generate lua code with the node/item definition received from the server, but I'm not going to implement that 09:28 kilbith i mean download the respective mods for each world and put them in /worldmods 09:28 sfan5 download from where? 09:30 kilbith from the server ofc 09:30 sfan5 the server only sends itemdefs, nodedefs and textures to the cleint 09:30 sfan5 client* 09:30 sfan5 not the full mods 09:31 sfan5 there is zero lua code being transferred between client and server 09:32 kilbith ok and it's not technically possible to fetch the mods dir to local ? 09:32 sfan5 no 09:32 sfan5 not technically possible 09:33 kilbith hmm, ok 09:33 kilbith that's a bit embarrassing 09:33 sfan5 it could theortically generate lua code with the node/item definition received from the server, but I'm not going to implement that 09:43 kilbith well, i added your feature in the Client tab: https://cdn.mediacru.sh/z/zuEcbEJK9prO.jpg 10:08 celeron55 hmmmmm: it's already possible to disable clouds independently for each player by setting a non-default sky with the set_sky function; but i guess biomes could control how the default sky looks 10:08 celeron55 so then you'd end up using that functionality only if you want to do something really special or don't use native biomes 10:08 celeron55 it's a parallel implementation though, which will cause problems when people want something in between but can't have it 10:10 celeron55 it should probably be something like override_sky() which could affect any individual part of the sky and not just override everything 11:08 celeron55 has somebody broken profiler_print_interval? 11:08 celeron55 i'm setting it to 10 and enabling info-level logging, but nothing comes up in logs 11:17 celeron55 no, i'm giving up 11:17 celeron55 what the fuck 11:17 celeron55 this "improved" configuration phase at start-up is ridiculously convoluted 11:18 celeron55 fix this shit, i'm out 11:21 celeron55 all i wanted to do is find out what is taking so much processing time per frame on my phone, but apparently i can't do it 12:24 sapier ShadowNinja: why don't you just go an help fixing the android bugs on your list instead of insisting on "I told there's a bug" ... there are some bugs on it which don't even require major knowledge about android to be fixed 12:25 sapier e.g. your shader config "BUG" 12:25 sapier or the log "bug" 12:25 sapier or "inventory fields debug" 12:27 sapier hmmmm celeron55 android ain't only phones but tablets too and tablets may have screensizes up to small pc's so there unused space in menu might be better than having large distances between controls 12:27 sapier just to be back at main android issue ... the big range of device types 12:29 celeron55 well, true 12:30 sapier "ShadowNinja hmmmmm: There should be several pages of settings. Eg, xonotic has audio, video, effects, user, misc, player..." well someone promised to do this change about 6 months ago 12:30 celeron55 the size should be set in such a way that it tries to be physically a certain size 12:30 celeron55 and if that doesn't fit on the screen, then whatever fits 12:31 sapier actually I try to do this, yet it's very simplistic and my have bugs in combinationwith new font scaling code 12:31 celeron55 on my phone's screen the menus are way smaller than what fits on the screen, and physically they are sized for insects 12:31 sapier android evaluates dpi as well as screen size and trys to set a sane gui_scaling default ... well what I found on my devices to be sane .. I don't put my hand into fire this is true for other devices too 12:32 sapier yes that's been same for me after gui scaling too 12:32 sapier wait 12:32 sapier ShadowNinja: did merge the two menus 12:32 sapier and simple menu didn't have fixed menu size as complex has 12:32 sapier maybe that difference was lost 12:33 sapier let me check 12:33 sapier no he did it correct 12:37 sapier I guess I found the issue with our font's they seem to handle dpi different then formspec 12:38 sapier I gues they're adjusted to dpi twice 12:40 sapier grr they're not adjusted at all because of that silly half disabling font size hack ... ok back to beginning to find the real issue 12:44 sapier reenabling the font size scaling as it's been meant to behave fixes the issue ... yet there have been complaints about the font size scaling 12:44 sapier let's see if now menu size is correct on my phone too 12:46 sapier Zeno for what I remember you did the workaround can you tell me what exactly you tried to fix? 14:08 sapier celeron55 I found out why menu is so small ... it's related to in game controls 14:08 sapier the scaling factor is same and it's adjusted to make controls in game work 14:08 sapier increasing the scaling makes controls overlap 14:16 celeron55 yes, they will overlap a bit when the menu is at a reasonable size on the small screen 14:16 celeron55 also, some menus are much larger than others and they should be automatically limited to fit the screen 14:16 celeron55 so i guess the in-game UI should be limited similarly to them 14:17 sapier I agree that they should but I fear we can't do this without causing sideeffects like font scaling did 14:17 sapier and there someone just disabled the font scaling to get rid of them ;-) 14:18 sapier btw if you reenable it android menu fonts match the formspec size and look fine 14:19 celeron55 what do you mean someone disabled font scaling 14:19 sapier guiFormSpecMenu.cpp about line 78 14:19 sapier select_font_by_line_height selects correct font size for formspec size 14:19 sapier but it's just been disabled and provides default font size 14:20 celeron55 why 14:20 sapier because some ppl haven't been happy with fonts doing correct scaling. I haven't found out till now WHAT exactly they didin't like 14:20 celeron55 just change it back, it's obviously the right thing to do 14:21 celeron55 scaling a pixel-positioned UI like this doesn't make sense if fonts don't scale along with it 14:21 celeron55 or, makes very little sense 14:21 sapier I guess some ppl did design their oversized formspecs with small fontsize in mind so those formspecs might now have fonts overlapping gui elements 14:22 celeron55 what do they expect? development to completely stop? 14:22 sapier but I don't really know everytime I did ask what exactly is wrong I didn't get a answer 14:22 celeron55 they can stay at 0.4.11 if they don't want development 14:23 sapier I guess we could add automatic scale down if a formspec exceeds display size 14:24 sapier not sure how much has to be changed but I guess it's limited 14:26 sapier ok fixed the progress bar jumping on asset copy 14:27 sapier guess I'm gonna push there changes in a few minutest just testing them on different devices 15:04 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2057 merging in a few minutes, only non android change is re-enabling of font scaling 15:12 sapier I made ShadowNinjas buglist to issues ... well I don't understand why he doesn't do this himself, bugs can't be fixed if they're only known to him as he refuses to fix them too 15:16 sapier celeron55 I just pushed a bunch of fixes for android, not all we did talk about yesterday 15:26 sapier Ok after checking all of shadows list I could only fix a single of his complaints, everything else either "works for me" or is a matter of taste/design. Performance issues depend on particular devices, I don't know what device he's using. 15:28 sapier e.g. the chat window .. it's a formspec so it behaves like one. And in formspecs there could be more then one text field so closing it immediatly ain't a good idea in general 15:28 sapier We could replace the formspec chat window by a native android one, yet if there are plans to remove it in favour of console why do this? 15:32 paramat hmmmm i need a more general way to switch off clouds (while keeping the day-night cycle/blue sky/sun/moon/stars), not a way only usable within biomes. something better than this https://github.com/paramat/flexrealm/blob/master/init.lua#L187 which fails to work properly when playing singleplayer, it leaves my .conf modified so i always have to edit it to re-enable clouds 15:33 paramat must go, exhausted 15:35 hmmmm I agree, a lot of audio-visual effects are left as config options that have an impact on gameplay 15:35 hmmmm what I think would be smarter is to leave clouds as configurable with a client-side 15:35 hmmmm client-side mod 15:36 hmmmm you know I really don't like adding more server/client packets for asstarded things like enabling and disabling clouds 15:38 hmmmm leaving all of these things for client-side modding is good because it builds up more pressure for getting the client side modding done 15:38 sapier why? ;-) 15:38 sapier there's no developer who really wants it by now 15:39 sapier I never heared anyone (except you) demand it who actually does work 15:40 hmmmm because the people who really want it are modders, not developers 15:42 sapier do those modders know that these mods would be 100% independent of the mods they do now? 15:42 hmmmm they wouldn't 15:42 sapier of course they would 15:42 hmmmm a server-side mod is able to create client-side mod dependencies 15:42 hmmmm the user is directed to download the client-side mods from a trusted repository like mmdb 15:43 sapier no because if there was a ways for them to communicate you'd immediatly get huge security implications 15:43 hmmmm I realize that 15:43 hmmmm as long as we strap down the GPU access as well we should be fine 15:43 sapier btw there's two different things 15:43 hmmmm having them communicate is pretty much necessary 15:43 sapier client side lua AND client side mods 15:43 sapier both are quite different 15:44 kahrl I thought they were called OTTO and ZEUS 15:44 sapier yes kahrl they are but I don't know if hmmmm alread knows the names 15:45 sapier ;-) 15:45 sapier seems the names are silly enough to get remembered 15:45 sapier so OTTO is security critical ZEUS ain't ;-) 15:45 sapier as long as ZEUS doesn't have communication capability to server 15:46 hmmmm how is this any different from running a website's javascript 15:47 kahrl I could only remember them because there was a play with Zeus at the Hans-Otto in Potsdam ;) 15:47 sapier OTTO ain't different (except of testing effort) 15:47 sapier ZEUS is more like a browser style theme 15:48 sapier kahrl captial letters are required ;-) 15:48 sapier hmmmm I assume you actually want OTTO and not ZEUS 15:50 hmmmm i have no idea what otto and zeus are 15:50 sapier OTTO is lua code sent from server mod to client 15:50 sapier automatically no manual install by client 15:50 hmmmm i thought we decided against OTTO 15:51 sapier I don't know about a decision like that 15:51 sapier OTTO is basically identical to javascript 15:51 sapier except of the testing of course 15:51 hmmmm right 15:52 hmmmm what i meant to say is that this is no more dangerous than javascript 15:52 sapier it is ... not by design but by confidence in code correctness 15:52 sapier even javascript does have issues every now and then it's quite likely we'll have more 15:53 sapier and ZEUS with client server communication added is no less dangerous then OTTO but way more inconvenient 15:55 hmmmm ZEUS is less likely to be malicious though 15:55 sapier no it ain't if there's client server communication ... at least if zeus aint a limited home brew language 15:56 hmmmm oh, because they can execute instructions from the server effectively making it OTTO? 15:56 hmmmm yeah, that's essential for making things work 15:56 sapier exactly 15:57 sapier so only real usecase for ZEUS is modifying the look and feel of client ... well nice but nothing I'd spend time on ;-) 15:58 sapier while OTTO is valuable and I may even implement it soon 15:58 sapier especially as most parts are already done 15:59 hmmmm woah, one thing at a time here :/ 15:59 hmmmm we need to get the gui working on android well 15:59 hmmmm from what i understand, the menus don't take up all the available screen space on android... what's up with that? it's a mobile device 15:59 sapier hmmmm write issues for what you feel not to work! don't do it like shadow 16:00 sapier menu taking all available space on my tablet would look crazy 16:00 sapier there's no one solution for all ;-) 16:01 sapier we're gonna have to do some tuning and find heuristics to decide best 16:02 PilzAdam sapier, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/083d19b3fc8f60468e124c801296c13b66c41abc#diff-65f34680878a6bd86f3a59ebc0c06c6dL93 wtf? 16:02 sapier but that's not gonna work the "i change it this way because it looks best on my device"-way ;-) 16:02 PilzAdam have you fixed the issues with the font scaling? 16:02 sapier what exactly? 16:02 sapier of course 16:02 sapier works for me 16:02 sapier at least all "issues" anyone told me 16:03 PilzAdam nothing changed for me 16:03 PilzAdam the text is like 200% bigger now 16:03 sapier did you fix your gui scaling? 16:04 PilzAdam I don't want to change the size of inventory images 16:04 PilzAdam I want to change the size of the font 16:04 sapier you can't 16:04 PilzAdam yes, thats the issue 16:04 sapier you couldn't really do this before either 16:04 sapier it's not an issue 16:04 PilzAdam it worked perfectly fine 16:05 celeron55 can't there be a setting that by default is disabled but if it is set to a value, the value is directly used as the font size with no scaling whatsoever? 16:05 sapier vanessaE has a nice cartoon there ... about some spacebar heating processor 16:05 celeron55 then pilzadam and other old-timey desktop users can use that setting 16:05 VanessaE http://xkcd.com/1172/ 16:06 PilzAdam celeron55, that only fixes a part of the problem 16:06 sapier well he can set the font size smaller so it's gonna behave same but I won't add a if then else else else cascade everywhere wher dpi screen size and font size is used 16:06 PilzAdam another thing is that I want a bigger hotbar, but not a bigger inventory 16:06 sapier noone ever will be able to debug this 16:06 VanessaE sapier: xkcd always has a relevant cartoon :) 16:06 PilzAdam one setting for everything GUI related is stupid 16:06 sapier why? 16:07 sapier do you wanna have a different setting per formspec element name? 16:07 PilzAdam the inventory scales with my window size while the hotbar doesn't 16:07 sapier or maybe even per formspec id 16:07 PilzAdam I don't want to change the GUI scale factor when resizing my window 16:07 sapier of course that could be added you'd just have to write your own client config per server/mod 16:07 celeron55 we should just rip out all UI and implement it properly from scratch 16:07 celeron55 and obsolete every mod that has any UI 16:08 VanessaE celeron55: define "properly" 16:08 celeron55 it's the only way to win 16:08 celeron55 taking all learned concerns into account 16:08 sapier celeron55 we just mad it consistent causing all those complains ... do you expect a new one beeing consistend wouldn't cause same complains? 16:09 PilzAdam also why is the status text (e.g. when chaning noclip) moved to the center of the screen? 16:09 PilzAdam it used to be in the bottom left corner 16:09 sapier the only way to consider all those complains would be adding some sort of html + css mechanism where each user could specify his own css ;-) 16:09 celeron55 i was wondering that too, it was changed by someone recently (i saw the commit) 16:09 celeron55 i think it's a stupid change 16:10 sapier I haven't changed that PilzAdam 16:10 sapier at least not intentionally 16:10 celeron55 PilzAdam: can you make a list of what UI things you want to configure separately, given that everything must fall under some setting 16:11 celeron55 i think it is very unclear until you do that 16:11 celeron55 the scaling of them, i mean 16:11 sapier well I guess we need two different scale factors for hud and formspec anyway so maybe PilzAdams issues would be solved this way 16:11 PilzAdam celeron55, what I personally want now or what would be good to have generally? 16:12 celeron55 PilzAdam: something that can be implemeted and that also is usable on everywhere where minetest is used 16:12 VanessaE sapier: font size in a formspec, font size in the main menu (and related), HUD scaling ... those are the three I can see an immediate need for, if you were to fully re-enable your font patches 16:12 VanessaE (c55 ^^) 16:13 celeron55 when every person decides to require one part of the UI to be exactly the same as before, with enough people no parts of the UI can change at all and we will be left with no way whatsoever to make this work on different screen sizes 16:13 sapier formspec is formspec I'll not implement different scale factors for them ... best I'd provide is implement per formspec configurable form size 16:13 celeron55 VanessaE: relative to what? pixels? window size? screen size? dpi? 16:13 sapier font size 16:13 celeron55 VanessaE: each otherr? 16:13 celeron55 -r 16:13 sapier meaning you can specify a different then default font size for each text in a formspec 16:14 VanessaE celeron55: relative to physical screen size, I suppose. 16:14 VanessaE I dunno, I'm just going from my own experience when his font patches were enabled. 16:15 celeron55 well experience is what we need, not guesswork 16:15 VanessaE the HUD would be relative to some sane "standard size" (perhaps the usual height as seen in an 800x600 window from several versions ago) 16:16 sapier right now font size keeps aspect to form size 16:16 sapier if form spec is shown at twice size the fonts are shown twice as high too 16:17 VanessaE sapier: which looks like total ass, frankly. 16:17 celeron55 well, it's exactly what one wants on the 400x300...1920x720 2.5"...15" androids 16:17 VanessaE but that takes a back seat to "gazonga fonts in the inventory, dinky fonts in the main menu" 16:18 celeron55 i mean, 400x300 15" ... 1920x1080 2.5" 16:18 VanessaE celeron55: sure -- on an Android display, but you do NOT want it on a desktop usually 16:18 sapier so how do you think it should behave VanessaE 16:18 VanessaE right, I got that. 16:18 VanessaE sapier: a consistent size on the desktop, regardless of window size. 16:18 celeron55 that's what the problem seems to be 16:19 sapier always keep your 10 pixels font even if screen has 100dpi? 16:19 PilzAdam the problem is (I guess), that formspecs are not good at defining a GUI that would work with different font sizes 16:19 VanessaE like EVERY OTHER DAMNED APPLICATION. 16:19 sfan5 ^ 16:19 sapier even my tablet doesn't have enough physical size to show my desktop sized menu! 16:19 VanessaE sapier: no, keep my font at 13 point (note, points -- not pixels) regardless of 96 or 200 DPI screens, or 800x600 window or 1600x1200 window 16:19 celeron55 sapier: what if you just scale the formspecs and UI according to *display* size, not *window* size? does that even make any sense? 16:20 celeron55 it might not make 16:20 VanessaE celeron55: then big formspecs - probably even the standard inventory - will exceed the default window bounds. 16:20 celeron55 VanessaE: wut? 16:20 sapier hmm would be worth a try but would break for almost anyone 16:20 celeron55 that's what already happened previously 16:21 VanessaE celeron55: nevermind - misread. 16:21 celeron55 and what happens if you have a consistent size like you wanted 16:21 VanessaE I don't get what's so fucking hard about reading the screen DPI from the OS's windowing system? 16:22 VanessaE celeron55: what happens is what happens now - fonts remain readable at any window size and there isn't any of this mishegas about fonts suddenly becoming monster-sized just because the window is bigger. 16:22 celeron55 has anyone even tried getting the DPI from the OS 16:22 sapier yes I did 16:22 sapier it's not possible on pc right now 16:22 celeron55 what happened 16:22 VanessaE bullshit 16:23 sapier there are some discussions about implementing it in future irrlicht versions 16:23 VanessaE then don't use irrlicht to query it. 16:23 sapier well it's the only consistent way unless you wanna implement a separate way for each and every os 16:24 sapier but I have to leave no I'm gonna read the logs later 16:24 VanessaE "each and every OS" meanwhile there are only three windowing systems you need to worry about. 16:24 VanessaE X11, Windows, and OS-X. 16:24 celeron55 true 16:25 VanessaE and if you can't get DPI sanely, assume a standard default that the user can easily change. 16:25 PilzAdam celeron55, I thought about that list with UI settings, and it turns out that missing settings aren't really the problem 16:25 VanessaE or get it from...*gasp* the user's window manager 16:26 PilzAdam there are 2 problems that currently annoy me: 1) some things scale with the window size (formspecs, except mainmenu) and others don't (version string in the top left; hotbar) 2) when scaling up, everything is scaled up instead of realigned 16:26 PilzAdam 2) causes these gigantic fonts on larger screens 16:27 VanessaE PilzAdam: 2. is precisely the problem I'm arguing against as well 16:27 PilzAdam if we had a proper definition of our UI's, then we could scale things up properly instead of just "zooming in" 16:28 VanessaE a quick google says Windows from XP on up, and X11 all have API calls to query the screen DPI 16:29 PilzAdam we basically just need 2 settings if these problems are fixed: 1) a gui scale factor 2) how windows size scales the GUI 16:30 PilzAdam so we need layout managers (like in Qt or swing) to define formspecs 16:38 PilzAdam or we allow Lua to define a function that gets the window size as parameter to layout the formspec 16:38 PilzAdam this would only work with client size Lua, though 16:38 Calinou client can send its window size to server. 16:38 Calinou then server can work with it 16:38 Calinou of course, there should be a reasonable min/max to avoid fakes 16:38 VanessaE Calinou: s/window size/screen size/ 16:38 VanessaE or send both 16:39 Calinou window or screen size? the Minetest window size is probably more relevant 16:39 VanessaE what's a reasonable max? 16:39 Calinou eg. don't allow width > 4096 16:39 Calinou but that's not really necessary 16:39 Calinou in case a client would send something like 50000 to try crashing server 16:39 VanessaE there are some screens beyond that rez :) 16:39 VanessaE oh yeah 16:54 VanessaE bottom line is, no other standard app does this whole "scale every damn thing just because we can" routine. 16:54 VanessaE not if they're trying to stick to your standard buttons/checkboxes/lists widgets paradigm anyway 17:00 est31 hmmmm there is a srp implementation not requiring libgmp 17:00 est31 only openssl 18:45 sfan5 pushing in 5 minutes: http://sprunge.us/GbBd?diff 18:46 Krock looks like a hack. isn't it poss to chack if EXISTING_MINETEST_DIR is empty? 18:46 Krock *check 18:46 sfan5 this is what I'm doing 18:46 Krock but it looks like the old way failed somehow 18:47 Krock and now you're just adding dummy text and checking the result of it 18:47 sfan5 *sigh* 18:47 sfan5 -d "" is probably true 18:47 sfan5 and "x$var" = "x" is a perfectly fine way to check whether the var is empty 18:47 Krock mhm okay 18:48 sfan5 Krock: http://stackoverflow.com/a/9097530 19:30 hmmmm est31: cool, but I'm not the one interested in strengthening the authentication. i just recommended using SRP as an alternative to challenge response if you were going to strengthen it 19:31 hmmmm like I said before... auth is FUBAR but it's just a crappy game, not important things such as SSH or online banking or whatever 19:31 hmmmm people who use their "real" passwords for minetest are fools 19:31 VanessaE but...but...players might lose tens of thousands of minegeld! :P 19:45 russia_nekto hi every1 19:45 russia_nekto want to ask, how minetest rendres settings menu ? 19:46 VanessaE it 19:46 VanessaE it's an Lua formspec 19:46 russia_nekto but where? 19:46 hmmmm it uses IGUIEnvironment 19:46 russia_nekto therey is only gettest 19:46 russia_nekto core.show_keys_menu() 19:46 hmmmm oh 19:47 hmmmm that's the script api for showing the key menu 19:47 russia_nekto where is it placed? 19:47 hmmmm the real work is done in src/guiKeyChangeMenu.cpp 19:48 russia_nekto so , render code is there? 19:49 hmmmm it doesn't "render" the GUI elements, but it places them and handles events from them 19:49 hmmmm the rendering is done inside of irrlicht 19:49 russia_nekto ok. i got it. 19:49 russia_nekto wait i take a look in this cpp 19:50 russia_nekto i have one more Q 19:51 hmmmm yes..? 19:54 russia_nekto i have seen this cpp 19:54 russia_nekto is it true , that keys placed in enum? 19:55 russia_nekto another Q: how to unbind key ? or clear the key ? 19:56 est31 hmmmm, I could implement srp, but I need to get insight in how minetest contributing works. any small issue I can fix? 19:58 russia_nekto hmmmm: i want to add invert_mouse options to GUI but it seems to be not so fast to do 19:58 hmmmm hmmm 19:58 Calinou russia_nekto, look at how other booleans are added in the Lua code 19:58 hmmmm russia_nekto: you accomplish this by writing to the g_settings entry by that name 19:58 Calinou you will have to add some space though 19:59 Calinou else, your checkbox will fly over the clouds 19:59 Calinou you could add mouse_sensitivity slider too… 19:59 hmmmm coincidentally I'm already working on an all-encompassing options menu which includes that 19:59 hmmmm est31, I have no idea :/ 19:59 russia_nekto hmmmm: nice to hear 20:00 russia_nekto one more Q: is is possible to render some texture under invetory menu? want to light some beauty to this grey boxes 20:02 russia_nekto and Chest menu too 20:02 est31 http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest/2014-09-22#i_3940514 20:02 est31 I'll write a PR 20:03 russia_nekto what is PR? 20:03 sfan5 pull request 20:03 est31 pull request 20:04 russia_nekto :) 20:04 russia_nekto PR for what u`ll write? 20:05 est31 wget 'url' && mv here there → git clone 20:05 est31 simpler and better 20:05 sapier VanessaE we've got already 3 windowing systems on linux 20:05 VanessaE sapier: we have one. X11. 20:05 sapier x11 wayland and the ubuntu stuff 20:06 VanessaE oh you mean those upstarts? 20:06 VanessaE fuck them. 20:06 VanessaE (the ubuntu one is Mir or some such I think) 20:06 sapier doesn't help they're gonna be used in near future 20:06 russia_nekto one more Q: is is possible to render some texture under invetory menu? want to light some beauty to this grey boxes 20:07 VanessaE russia_nekto: there's a formspec command for that, yes 20:07 VanessaE sapier: my point is, getting the DPI of the user's screen is a basic function. 20:07 russia_nekto can u explain more detail? 20:08 VanessaE russia_nekto: take a look at the lua_api.txt file in doc/ 20:08 russia_nekto i need to call formspec with texture arg? 20:08 VanessaE I don't remember the command, but it's just an extra field you add to the default inventory formspec is all 20:08 sapier well it should and I'm not against it but the problems we're argueing about are not caused by dpi 20:09 VanessaE sapier: they're caused *exactly* by not knowing the screen DPI 20:09 sapier our problem is based on two historicyl issues 20:09 VanessaE sapier: because then you're measuring everything in pixels instead of points or mm or something else physical 20:09 sapier 1) requirement to make menu exactly same (pixel wise) size as on 800x600 20:09 sapier and 2) requirement do to do some other adjustment 20:09 sapier obviously those requirements don't match 20:10 VanessaE no one said the *menu* has to be exactly the same. the argument is that the fonts have to be the same - you can't go blowing a font that's sized to 13 points in the main menu, up to 50 point sized in-game just because the window size changed. no application I know of does that. 20:10 sapier well this HAS ben told when the old one was replaced by formspec 20:10 VanessaE that's because too much changed all at once 20:11 sapier I'm the first one to drop this if there's an agreement to it 20:11 sapier actually on android it IS dropped 20:11 VanessaE besides, our current menu isn't really the same as it used to be. 20:11 sapier it is 20:11 VanessaE it didn't used to have the game selector on the bottom did it? 20:12 VanessaE or the Texture Packs tab 20:12 sapier last version did have 20:12 VanessaE I'm comparing to the C++ menu 20:12 sapier texture packs tab doesn't change the overall size 20:12 VanessaE and we don't have those vertical labels along the left anymore either 20:12 VanessaE so it's not "exactly the same" as before 20:12 sapier we do 20:12 VanessaE um, no we don't. I'm looking at it :) 20:13 sapier at least I have those vertical labels don't they work for you 20:13 VanessaE I don't even see them, I thought kahrl removed them 20:13 VanessaE hell, "Client" tab clearly lacks the room for a vert label 20:14 sapier hmm you're right we don't have them .... who did remove them? 20:14 sapier I didn't do this for sure 20:14 VanessaE kahrl did 20:14 VanessaE 581efea60e8fad18b9a2fc9d544f014e2ac693f8 20:14 russia_nekto VanessaE: background[,;,;] this assigns bg? 20:14 sapier I see 20:14 VanessaE russia_nekto: yep, I think that's the one. 20:15 sapier well as I said I always preferred scaling main menu it's just not been accepted by that time 20:15 VanessaE just add that to the formspec code that sets the inventory 20:15 sapier we didn't have proper formspec scaling by that time maybe it's better now 20:15 russia_nekto VanessaE: can u answer where is a call for formspec for inventory? 20:16 VanessaE russia_nekto: I don't know, try digging around in builtin/ 20:16 russia_nekto ok. 20:16 russia_nekto anybody knows how to find formspec call for inventory ? 20:18 sapier well I'm gonna implement the x11 screen dpi code for testing purposes ... but I don't think that's gonna solve everything 20:18 sapier I think we need more pieces to get it into a shape everyone can live with 20:21 VanessaE according to MSDN, sapier: there are also calls for WinXP through 8.1 20:21 VanessaE s/sapier: // 20:21 sapier I still don't think this solves the issues 20:21 VanessaE well, if you know the screen DPI, you can compute font size as a function of *points* rather than pixels 20:21 sapier you can try it set screen_dpi variable manually 20:22 VanessaE then it doesn't matter if you have 800x600 or 16000x12000 20:22 sapier no because font size is not relative to screen dpi but to formspec 20:22 VanessaE I mean absolute size 20:22 sapier later one is relative to screen dpi 20:22 VanessaE it should NEVER be relative to formspec. ever. 20:22 sapier EVER 20:23 VanessaE EVER. :) 20:23 sapier because that's the only consistent way of scaling the forspec as a whole 20:23 Sokomine i'm testing celeron's new android build. as the topic seems to be the formspecs...have you considered doing one for android where the main actions are more like icons, and lists to select from fullscreen? 20:23 sapier because some of our formspec elements depend on font size 20:23 VanessaE why do they depend on font size at all? 20:23 sapier that's silly I know but that's the way it is 20:24 VanessaE you're talking about the height of a button for example? 20:24 sapier tell this to the guys who initially implemented buttons and text fields 20:24 sapier even labels depend on font size 20:24 Sokomine :-/ 20:24 VanessaE then change the code so that the button height depends on the *rendered* font size. 20:24 sapier I can't 20:24 VanessaE yes you can. 20:24 Sokomine guess people don't line up in order to rewrite formspecs... 20:24 sapier Well it's not I can't as I can't write the code it's I can't because YOU don't accept it 20:25 sapier remember our discussion with zefram? 20:25 russia_nekto repeat: anybody knows how to find formspec call for inventory menu in lua scripts ? 20:25 VanessaE sapier: look, no UI in existence on a desktop tolerates the kind of font scaling you're trying to push through 20:25 sapier I already fixed it but YOU (and others) didn't want that fix 20:25 VanessaE it just does. not. work. 20:25 Sokomine isn't that something based on irrlicht? 20:26 sapier It's not MY font scaling this is YOUR style of font scaling vanessaE I just accepted it for peace reason and now I have to defend YOUR requirement AGAINST you? ironic 20:26 * VanessaE sighs 20:27 sapier I tried to fix the formspec alignment and font dependencys but that'd have broken any single existing formspec so you didn't want it 20:27 VanessaE it's not my style of font scaling, sapier. it's just how desktops work. you don't go fucking around with peoples' font settings (or looking like you do) just because those settings seem "wrong" in certain cases. 20:28 sapier well I can't change the fact that I can't travel back in time and fix the bug in current formspec positioning ... and if I fix it now it's gonna break existing things 20:28 sapier you don't want existing things to be broken so I can't fix the bug ... quite simple 20:28 hmmmm I suggest we break things and move forward 20:28 hmmmm this next release is going to be quite a doozy so it's justified 20:29 VanessaE hmmmm: break things in what way? so that every last mod that has some kind of formspec has to be rewritten and ends up incompatible with 0.4.11? 20:29 VanessaE (and prior)_ 20:29 hmmmm possibly 20:29 hmmmm it depends on how difficult it is to do the rewriting 20:29 hmmmm maybe we could do an automatic conversion or add a compatibility mode 20:29 sapier hmmmmm I'm not gonna do this if there ain't a common agreement on it. I'm not gonna spend another week of develompent for trash 20:29 hmmmm I definitely won't trash it 20:30 hmmmm again... spacebar CPU heater 20:30 hmmmm there's always going to be some people upset with changes 20:30 russia_nekto devs, is there a predefined name of file for background texture for inventory menu ? 20:30 hmmmm i don't know 20:30 VanessaE this goes WAY beyond just breaking someone's workflow 20:31 VanessaE russia_nekto: no, there isn't. 20:31 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1561 that's the prototype 20:31 sapier most is already done yet ppl didn't want it 20:31 VanessaE http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/Screenshot%20-%2001062015%20-%2003%3a32%3a24%20PM.png 20:31 VanessaE explain this, hmmmm 20:31 VanessaE this is HEAD, right now. 20:32 VanessaE before the font changes, that chat font you see behind the formspec just happens to be about the size that everything inside the formspec also was. 20:33 sapier looks like an exact scale up of 800x600 formspec 20:33 sapier no disorted font locations, nothing hidden 20:33 VanessaE http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/Screenshot%20-%2001062015%20-%2003%3a34%3a38%20PM.png 20:33 sapier if modders don't want this they can tell a formspec to not to be scaled 20:33 VanessaE how about this one then? 20:34 sapier how is it gonna look like on 800x600? 20:35 hmmmm christ 20:35 hmmmm this is so FUBAR 20:35 VanessaE before, the fonts would be correct at any reasonable window size. Now, they're just as broken at any window size. 20:35 hmmmm erm 20:35 sapier no the fonts havent been correct 20:35 sapier the fonts have been SAME size 20:35 VanessaE they were correct as in they didn't overflow their fields. 20:35 sapier them beeing readable was by accident only 20:35 sapier they haven't been readable on high dpi devices 20:37 sapier btw any modder can make his formspecs use fixed size 20:37 sapier then it's gonna stay exactly the way it was by now 20:37 sapier with all positive and negative effects 20:37 sapier hmm 20:37 sapier if we did change the default to fixed sizes would this make everyone happy? 20:38 VanessaE define "fixed size". 20:38 sapier SAME as now 20:38 VanessaE fixed to a certain pixel height, or fixed to a certain POINT size? 20:38 sapier everything as broken as now 20:38 VanessaE yeah, actually that probably would solve most of the issue 20:39 VanessaE but you still need to change the calculations so that fonts are sized in points and based on DPI 20:39 sapier hmm well no it'd not be same every formspec would look like now on 800x600 20:39 VanessaE otherwise this is just gonna happen again sooner or later. 20:39 sapier exactly that way 20:40 sapier screen dpi is independent if you believe this to change anything TRY it ... it's not gonna help 20:41 VanessaE it's only independent if your calculations treat it wrongly. if you've got a 12-point font, it should display at precisely 4.233 mm high on any screen 20:41 sapier screen_dpi is the config setting you have to change, default is 300 20:41 VanessaE regardless of DPI, but you have to know the screen DPI to calculate how tall to actually render the font 20:42 VanessaE 300? who the hell has a DPI that high except some retina screens? 20:42 VanessaE that's laser printer resolution there 20:44 sapier wait sorry my test value is 300 20:44 sapier set is 72 20:44 VanessaE well that's better :P ... 72's a tad low, most screens are closer to 100 20:44 russia_nekto devs, i have one idea. 20:44 russia_nekto i think if u route your will to make some simple file structure for artists to allow them change minetest skin (main menu, inventory , hud and etc) what will rise players. because beuaty is why i play in games. 20:44 russia_nekto as i digged today there is no fast technique to beuatify menus in minetest. 20:44 russia_nekto so please, think of that. 20:44 VanessaE but you get what I'm saying 20:44 VanessaE russia_nekto: there's a mod for that. 20:45 russia_nekto VanessaE: where to read about that mod? 20:45 VanessaE russia_nekto: please check the minetest forums and take further questions there or to #minetest 20:45 russia_nekto no help? 20:45 VanessaE russia_nekto: this channel is for core development discussion, not general questions 20:46 russia_nekto is it general? 20:46 VanessaE #minetest is. 20:46 VanessaE please go there. 20:46 jin_xi VanessaE: does the entity detach crash happen on specific locations (any coordinate multiple of 200?) 20:46 russia_nekto i mean my idea is general? 20:47 VanessaE jin_xi: I wasn't able to determine it, since it was a production server I didn't really have much chance to try to reproduce it. 20:47 VanessaE s/determine it/determine that/ 20:48 VanessaE russia_nekto: yes. 20:48 russia_nekto u thnk beuaty is not corre? 20:49 VanessaE russia_nekto: this channel is for discussion of the engine code and the like. go to #minetest and ask your questions there, please 20:53 sapier VanessaE https://gist.github.com/sapier/95e7c31c69419502977e 20:54 sapier replace getDisplayDensity in porting.cpp by this version 20:54 russia_nekto the beauty gives inspiration. gives players and again gives inspiration to do more and loop here. 20:54 VanessaE sapier: the irony here is that if you set the default font scaling to fixed, then you could just as well set the main menu to auto-scale (with "fixed" turned on) to replicate the in-game behavior :P 20:54 VanessaE ok, lemme try that 20:54 russia_nekto VanessaE: you advice to ask in #minetest doesnt helps. 20:55 sapier no because I won't change font scaling 20:55 sapier only formspec scaling 20:55 VanessaE sapier: I was kidding :P 20:55 kilbith russia_nekto: we don't care, move away. 20:55 sapier hmm 20:56 russia_nekto kilbith: sad really sad 20:56 VanessaE sapier: trying that patch... 20:56 VanessaE russia_nekto: your questions are of a general nature. this is not the place to ask them. 20:56 sapier XCloseDisplay(x11display); 20:56 sapier add this somewhere after the float lines 20:56 sapier but prior return 20:56 VanessaE sapier: ok, added. 20:57 * VanessaE re-recompiles. 20:57 sapier crap 20:57 sapier doesn't work 20:57 * VanessaE stops. 20:58 sapier hmm wtf why does it work now 20:58 sapier try it 20:58 sapier and tell me your dpi error log should be flooded 20:59 VanessaE ok, I'll try 21:00 * VanessaE waits for compile script... 21:01 VanessaE there we go.... 21:01 VanessaE 16:02:08: ERROR[main]: DPIH: 96 DPIW: 96 21:01 VanessaE [ 5.620] (II) fglrx(0): DPI set to (96, 96) 21:01 VanessaE so that's a match 21:01 sapier but it doesn't fix your issues does it? 21:02 VanessaE well aside from the font being REALLY BIG now,... lemme turn the size down first 21:03 VanessaE testing... 21:04 VanessaE haha 21:04 VanessaE Maximum number of clients reachedSegmentation fault (core dumped) 21:05 VanessaE yep, it keeps dieing with that error when I try to start a world 21:05 VanessaE however, with the font size set to 15 in my config, it's approximately consistent with what I had before, but the formspec is larger on the 800x600 window than before 21:05 VanessaE (larger even, than it was before your patch) 21:06 VanessaE I mean the main menu. 21:07 VanessaE specifically, the formspec is *wider*, but the height seems about the same. 21:08 sapier does anyone know how to find out the correct screen number? hardcoding 0 doesn't work for multidisplay scenarios 21:08 sapier stop messing around with font adjustment size 21:09 sapier you cannot use it same way then before ... if you insist on messing around there I'm just gonna change the setting name to custom_font_size_adjustment 21:09 sapier which is it's actual meaning by now 21:10 VanessaE er......X didn't like that,. 21:10 VanessaE that last run actually crashed it. had to REISUB. 21:10 VanessaE what I was about to say was that in-game formspecs, while wider than they should be, had the correct font sizes now, consistent with the main menu. 21:11 sapier Didn't we solve that issue a couple of days ago when I merged the patch I gave you weeks ago? 21:12 VanessaE apparently not :) 21:12 VanessaE I'd take a screenshot, but I expect it'll crash X again. 21:12 sapier well it's not gonna work on mutlihead at all 21:12 VanessaE I was also trying to say that I'm not able to see the world in the server I connected to, but I can see my HUD, inventory, and chat. 21:13 sapier x11 doesn't provide per display information 21:13 VanessaE ah lemme guess, your code picked up 3200x1200 then 21:13 VanessaE (2* 1600x1200) 21:13 sapier I don't even think the numbers are correct 21:14 sapier no 5120x1080 21:15 VanessaE I mean from mine 21:15 sapier according to x11 it's 1368x292 mm 21:15 sapier most likely it did yes 21:15 VanessaE [ 5.220] (II) fglrx(0): clock: 162.0 MHz Image Size: 367 x 275 mm 21:16 VanessaE maybe because I don't use xinerama? 21:16 sapier maybe 21:16 sapier 292 is right for first screen 21:17 sapier maybe for second too but third is 320 and only 1024 pixels 21:18 sapier it'd be nice to know what would be calculated on 1280x1024 as well as a 4k screen 21:18 VanessaE looks like you can also read it from XRandR 21:18 sapier so a fourth dpi source ;-) 21:18 VanessaE heh 21:19 VanessaE well I suppose that's available on Wayland and Mir also 21:19 VanessaE hm, no... there's a tool for that 21:19 VanessaE bleh 21:19 sapier nice to know we've got 4 for linux ... not even started with windows osX ... hopefully bsd uses same as linx 21:20 sapier +u 21:21 VanessaE meanwhile since that test patch makes things...rather unstable, I'll remove it now 21:24 ShadowNinja sapier: I found a bug. Type a long character like 'a' or 'M' into the password field, and compare to a short character like 'i' or 'j'. 21:24 ShadowNinja A lot of them rather. 21:24 sapier and? 21:24 ShadowNinja Until it exceeds the field width. 21:24 sapier what's gonna happen? 21:24 ShadowNinja See what happens to the cursor, it's set wrong. 21:25 sapier fix it ;-) 21:25 sapier guess it's there for some time 21:25 ShadowNinja sapier: I don't know how. 21:26 ShadowNinja sapier: My guess is that it's calculating the offset for the text, but printing *s, which puts it off if it doesn't have the exact length of a *. 21:26 ShadowNinja It doesn't work well for the name field either though -- it just doesn't adjust enough for any character. 21:27 * ShadowNinja goes back to log reading... 21:27 sapier but content of the password field is done by irrlicht itself I don't think we're doing something on our own? 21:31 est31 ShadowNinja, did you get a ping when I amended my PR? 21:35 ShadowNinja est31: Erm, what do you mean? 21:35 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2073 21:35 ShadowNinja sapier: Yes, it's likely an Irrlicht bug, unless it's related to FreeType. 21:36 ShadowNinja est31: Oh, no. 21:37 sapier well ShadowNinja irrlicht doesn't support freetype at all and our freetype to irrlicht code contains bugs 21:37 sapier especially for font details like width height character distances (up/down left/right) 21:37 sapier I tried to understand it but gave up as you need a lot of font specific knowledge I don't have 21:40 ShadowNinja sapier: I didn't make issues because at the time the Android port wasn't merged. 21:42 sapier it's in there about a quarter of a year ShadowNinja that's not a good excuse ;-) 21:42 sapier but that's not really relevant can you check those issues which I couldn't verify? They might be fixed already 21:45 sapier making hud scale independent from formspec is a minor change ShadowNinja do you have time to test? 21:46 ShadowNinja sapier: I'll re-check soon, but I don't have a 0.4.11 build. 21:46 sapier It's not gonna be 0.4.11 it's based uppon latest master 21:47 sapier VanessaE I just merged the X11 dpi code ... case someone wants to provide same for windows ;-) 21:47 VanessaE sapier: that commit works, but you should check how the HUD in dreambuilder behaves with it 21:47 ShadowNinja sapier: I'm not sure what you mean. Does the size of the displayed formspec change the size of the hud elements? if so that's definitely broken. 21:48 sapier VanessaE that doesn't matter, dpi detection is required if we wanna do it correct ... unless we wanna wait for irrlicht to implement it we have to take the ugly way of implementing it separate for each screen compositor 21:49 sapier no 21:49 VanessaE sapier: just saying, it throws off the HUD elements' positioning at small screen sizes 21:49 sapier ShadowNinja: the gui_scaling factor affects both 21:49 ShadowNinja sapier: Can you make a recent build for me? 21:49 sapier but as I realized lately you have to change it to a quite low value to get working hud on at least some phones 21:49 * VanessaE turns gui_scaling down from 1.0 to 0.8 and removes her font size settings 21:49 sapier using that small value causes menu to be quite small 21:50 sapier yes I'm gonna upload a recent apk for oyu 21:50 VanessaE ok houston we have a problem 21:51 sapier one? :-) 21:51 VanessaE http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/Screenshot%20-%2001062015%20-%2004%3a51%3a21%20PM.png 21:51 VanessaE look at those two signs. 21:51 sapier we've got a bunch of vanessaE 21:51 VanessaE I'm pretty sure that's not what was fed to the GPU :P 21:51 sapier what's wrong with them? 21:52 VanessaE they are defined in the code and on disk with a wood texture. 21:52 sapier and? 21:52 VanessaE this is mesh corruption here 21:52 sapier I don't see how this could be related to dpi calculation change ;-) 21:52 hmmmm looks to me like a bug with the mod that creates those signs 21:52 VanessaE hmmmm: it was fine earlier today. 21:52 hmmmm =/ 21:53 VanessaE I don't see how it could be related either but *shrug* 21:53 * VanessaE restarts 21:53 VanessaE (the client) 21:53 VanessaE textures are fine on the second ruin 21:53 VanessaE run* 21:54 VanessaE that's the first time I've seen in-game corruption of textures on my system. I also note that the game's window decorations were also corrupted 21:54 VanessaE on the first run 21:55 sapier wtf 21:55 sapier since when is android using xorg? 21:55 VanessaE since never? I thought it had its own windowing system? 21:56 sapier but it seems to set XORG_USED define 21:56 hmmmm uh oh 21:56 sapier wait 21:56 VanessaE what? 21:56 sapier my fault 21:56 hmmmm phew 21:57 sapier wrong ifndef cascade 21:58 VanessaE hm, in-game graphics seem fine on subsequent runs. must be that roving memory corruption bug? 21:59 VanessaE anyway with gui_scaling at 0.85 and no font size settings, the UIs and fonts are usable now. this is acceptable to me at least. :) 22:00 VanessaE (will be moreso if you set the default to fixed) 22:00 sapier well only 665 other users to satisfy 22:00 VanessaE haha 22:11 sapier didn't someone provide a file exchange server for minetest? 22:12 VanessaE I think Krock runs something like that doesn't he? 22:12 VanessaE (at least for skins) 22:12 VanessaE (and mods) 22:17 sapier http://www.fileconvoy.com/dfl.php?id=g897117ee8502eefc99960535676e62f7b46488772 ShadowNinja, link valid for about 2 days 22:27 sapier of course anyone else is free to test and give feedback too ;-) 22:28 ShadowNinja sapier: The menu is scalled too small. Usable, but it't 7.5cm X 4cm. 22:28 ShadowNinja scaled* 22:28 sapier did you delete your minetest.conf before? 22:29 sapier it may have the old setting there 22:29 ShadowNinja Nope... 22:29 sapier please try again 22:30 ShadowNinja sapier: Still a bit small, but better. 9cm X 4.5cm. 22:32 ShadowNinja sapier: pitch limiting is fixed... 22:32 sapier ok you should be able to do finetuning by changeing the gui_scaling in settings 22:32 ShadowNinja Jumping too. 22:32 sapier ok I'm closing those issues 22:33 ShadowNinja And chat closing... 22:33 sapier well that's most likely still there, as chat is a regular formspec right now there's no reasonable fix 22:36 ShadowNinja sapier: Aaaand SIGABRT. 22:36 ShadowNinja In ConnectionReceiveThread. 22:36 sapier hmm do you have more information? out of memory? 22:37 sapier can you post the full error log? 22:37 ShadowNinja Yep, one minute. 22:42 ShadowNinja PMd. 22:43 acerspyro ShadowNinja: Did you really send him the full log via PM, line by line? 22:45 sapier nope he sent me a link ;-) 22:45 ShadowNinja acerspyro: No, of course not. It's like 200 lines. 22:45 acerspyro lol ok phew 22:48 ShadowNinja sapier: You can remove the "Fly mode" checkbox from the main menu now, since there's an in-game button. 22:49 sapier true but those buttons are quite ugly my display isn't even big enough to show all of them 22:49 sapier resulting in multiple buttons beeing drawn on top of each other 22:49 acerspyro There's an in-game button? Since? 22:50 sapier I don't know but it's not a well tested final solution ... I'd suggest providing a settings menu 22:50 kilbith sapier: can you test the PR 2054 on android for me please ? i can't actually 22:50 sapier I don't think those settings are changed each minute 22:50 ShadowNinja acerspyro: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/62feade05da387cd6b230e7a0edf558c6fd7c099 22:50 sapier #2ß54 22:50 sapier #2054 22:50 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2054 -- Reorganizing client and settings tabs by kilbith2 22:51 acerspyro Oh, android? 22:53 sapier And buttons not required for gameplay shouldn't be on main screen 22:54 sapier #2054 breaks settings tab on android 22:54 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2054 -- Reorganizing client and settings tabs by kilbith2 22:55 sapier but looks like it could be fixed 22:55 sapier you'll have to move tha andoid specific settings block below the middle column 22:55 kilbith hmm. 22:56 acerspyro Scroll bars are a thing 22:56 sapier right now it's overlapping 22:56 sapier no scrollbars without containers and formspec doesn't support those 22:56 kilbith i'd like a screenie 22:57 kilbith or just fix that in my PR, sapier 22:57 kilbith if it's painless enough 22:58 sapier http://imgur.com/L34g1yl 22:59 kilbith oh yes, i'll move that further downward 22:59 sapier btw as you're optimizing the settings menu, could you make anisotropic bi/trilinear filtering a drop down? ;-) 23:00 kilbith yes 23:00 VanessaE no 23:00 sapier a little bit to the left too ;-) 23:00 VanessaE aniso is not mutually exclusive with bi/tri 23:01 sapier are you sure? 23:01 VanessaE the latter two can be in a drop-down, but don't put aniso in with them. 23:01 VanessaE I am positive. 23:01 sapier ok if you tell this it's most likely rigth as I wasn't sure about it 23:01 VanessaE aniso defines the filtering applied over a mipmap, bi/tri is an after-effect, or at least that's how it's supposed to work 23:01 VanessaE some drivers are busted though 23:01 sapier so it's no-filtering/bi-linearfiltering/tri-linear filtering 23:01 VanessaE yes 23:02 VanessaE now for the other part, you can put them into a dropdown also: none -> mipmap only -> mipmap + aniso 23:02 VanessaE (you'll never use aniso without mipmap) 23:03 sapier no-mipmapping please 23:04 sapier unless you want to add a description line too ;-) 23:04 kilbith 2 dropdowns then ? 23:04 sapier yes one no-mipmap/mipmap/mipmap + aniso 23:04 sapier the other one 23:04 sapier no filtering/bi-linear filtering/tri-linear filtering 23:05 kilbith noted 23:05 sapier wait "no mipmap" of course 23:05 sapier space instead of - 23:14 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2074 the hud gui scaling split 23:15 VanessaE from a quick check, lgtm 23:15 VanessaE but I didn't test :P 23:17 * VanessaE tests. 23:18 VanessaE yep, works for me 23:53 VanessaE it seems direct3d8/direct3d9 are not showing up for some people as a video driver option, while opengl et al. are. 23:53 VanessaE on Windows that is 23:56 sapier well someone wanted them to be hidden I guess there's a bug 23:56 sapier for what I remember the list is provided by irrlicht 23:57 kilbith i *hate* the new font rendering, the menu is totally fucked up with the french words 23:58 sapier yes the full driver list is checked against irrlicht support if irrlicht tells NO we don't show it 23:58 kilbith s/rendering/scaling 23:58 acerspyro kilbith: how so 23:58 sapier kilbith: screenshots please, did you remove manual font adjustments from your config file? 23:59 sapier do you use a custom font?