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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-12-18

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 Bratmon I played on a minecraft server plugin called Naval Battlezone with a similar idea.
00:00 Bratmon The implementation was god-awful, but it still was really fun.
00:04 Bratmon The minimum viable product on them isn't actually that much.
00:05 Bratmon Just nodes that know that they're a boat, and then all the nodes move together.
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00:21 hmmmm well first you need to make each voxel area entity its own irrlicht scene node
00:21 hmmmm then you have to define a way to store these in the map database
00:22 hmmmm then you have to define separate mesh making code for it
00:22 hmmmm then you have to modify the protocol to work with these
00:23 hmmmm were you volunteering for that, bratmon?
00:25 Bratmon If you're a lazy bastard, you can get half way there by just making pseudo-VAEs
00:25 Bratmon That are just nodes in the world with some metadata.
00:26 kaeza someone already did (kinda)
00:26 Bratmon Where?  I was unaware of this.
00:27 jin_xi stu did that i believe but i never tried
00:29 kaeza it works pretty well, but the disadvantage is lack of non-aa collision boxes
00:29 Bratmon aa?
00:29 jin_xi axis aligned
00:30 Bratmon That makes sense.
00:34 kaeza https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=11&t=8059
00:36 Bratmon Thanks. kaeza
00:36 Bratmon That's exactly what I was thinking of.
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02:37 paramat 'Therefore a single noise parameter table can be used to get 2D or 3D noise, when getting 2D noise spread.z is ignored.' < correct hmmmm ?
02:38 hmmmm that is correct
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02:38 paramat i've seen today's biome drama and corrected my misunderstanding about spread.z not needing to be 1
02:38 hmmmm biome drama?
02:40 hmmmm lol before some guy started spazzing out before... "OMG MAPGEN V7 IS SOOOOO MESSED UP!  IT WAS FINE UP UNTIL A COUPLE DAYS AGO AND IT NOW EVERYTHING IS JUST TOTALLY MESSED UP"
02:41 hmmmm :/  i forgot to remove the manual noise transforms to biome noise when i added auto-transform to the perlinMap* functions
02:42 paramat yep saw that. beginning to realise you don't test much of your work heh
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02:43 hmmmm not during that flurry of activity
02:43 paramat that's understandable
02:43 hmmmm speaking of biomes
02:44 hmmmm i'm thinking of adding the biome infrastructure to v6
02:44 paramat gosh
02:44 hmmmm :D
02:44 hmmmm "NOOO MAPGEN V6 WAS FINE UP UNTIL A COUPLE DAYS AGO"
02:44 hmmmm "NOW IT'S ALL ROCK"
02:44 hmmmm "BRING BACK THE OLD VERSION!"
02:45 paramat lol
02:45 paramat place decos is in there, i was thinking of removing that
02:45 hmmmm i think i'm going to define some default biomes in builtin
02:45 hmmmm getting real tired of this BS
02:46 paramat well i'm working on default biomes already https://github.com/paramat/m​inetest_game/tree/mgv5biomes
02:46 hmmmm cool but that's part of minetest game
02:46 hmmmm so not really default
02:46 paramat oh i see
02:47 paramat just something really basic and not stone then
02:47 hmmmm plains
02:47 hmmmm i should do this before the release
02:48 paramat i saw a video review of minetest, only stone v7 was used
02:48 hmmmm :|
02:48 hmmmm "what a crappy game"
02:48 paramat "seemed bleak" < actual comment on IRC
02:48 hmmmm hah
02:49 paramat "some kind of hardcore survival?"
02:51 paramat i'm also working on improving the biome api, i removed 'dust water' because everyone uses that for ice, but that creates holes in ice under overhangs/floatlands
02:51 paramat replaced with 'water top'
02:51 hmmmm really?
02:51 paramat could also add 'water top depth' for ice depth
02:51 hmmmm i'm planning on nuking the current biome system because it seriously blows
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02:52 paramat well see my improvents first https://github.com/paramat/​minetest/tree/biomeapinodes
02:53 paramat i have ideas and would like a chance to improve it
02:54 paramat solved the 'surface node underwater' problem when under overhangs
02:55 paramat but also kept height min/max so vertically layered biomes still work, would work for stacked realms
02:55 paramat so yes i checked everyone who is using the biome api and 'dust water' was only used for icesheet
02:56 paramat my improvements combined with my MTgame biomes create an impressive result
02:58 paramat what's good about the current biome api is it uses 2D noise for heat/humidity but can also cope with vertically stacked biome systems. i consider it a fairly good system, just needs some work
03:02 hmmmm my idea behind the whole water and 'water dust' was maybe it could be a fog node for swamp biomes
03:02 hmmmm or maybe radioactive dust around a radioactive liquid biome
03:03 hmmmm etc.
03:07 paramat aha, i was wondering what it was for, could be re-added
03:09 paramat so perhaps instead of yet another trashing we can improve what we have, organically evolve it in little steps
03:10 paramat i remember a while back in IRC you gave me the job of sorting out biomes, i've put a lot of work into it
03:11 Tesseract v5 and v7 should be marked as (experimental) and (incomplete) before release.
03:11 paramat yes
03:11 paramat i need until 0.4.12 to make tree schems, complete the biome system and improve the biome api
03:14 paramat hmmmm, if you let me know what you don't like about the biome api i/we can improve what we have. trashing it means a long wait after which you might get fed up with your new system and trash it again
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03:20 paramat as i wrote in IRC recently we could have multiple biome apis, insisting on one system just causes unnecessary grief for ourselves
03:27 paramat any biome api inherently results in limitations in what it can do, therefore insisting on one biome api for all mapgens then rules out a vast amount of other possibilities
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03:29 paramat those lost possibilities then make us feel bad and make us consider trashing what we have for a better single biome api
03:30 paramat pointless grief =)
03:32 paramat it's a bit like insisting on only one mapgen, it would be hell trying to choose one, and working on one only leads to numbness through over-familiarity
03:34 paramat we could leave v6 as it is. v5 and an improved v7 could be current biome api. v8 would use your new biome api
03:34 paramat or perhaps even make each biome api interchangeable across multiple mapgen base terrains
03:48 MinerDad Is adding parts to the formspec kosher? I'm looking at https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1374 and I think giving mods an ability to set a prediction for put/take would make it possible
03:50 MinerDad Either change formspec or add a new parameter to the node to indicate this per list
03:53 hmmmm paramat, what i had in mind was to move generateBiomes() to BiomeManager and have it selectable
03:56 paramat so it could be disabled, sounds good
03:57 hmmmm at first i planned to have an mgv6 spflag for "use system biomes"
03:57 hmmmm might make a new mapgen param for "biome manager type"
03:57 hmmmm and each mapgen has its default
03:58 hmmmm v6's default will be "none", v5 will be "paramat's", and v7 will be "hmmmm's"
03:58 hmmmm and you can switch between all of them
03:58 hmmmm yes?  no?
04:00 paramat yes good stuff
04:07 paramat i really look forward to seeing v8 and your new biome api ideas, i feel people will be much happier knowing this wouldn't involve losing what we have
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04:32 hmmmm http://i.imgur.com/bsU7iam.png
04:32 hmmmm blob ore ^
04:32 hmmmm this is supposed to replace dirt, gravel, and clay
04:32 * paramat looks
04:33 paramat what i'm doing with the current biome api is a backwards-compatible improvement, the practicality of this is keeping the many players currently using it happy, only a few changes to their biome definitions will be needed
04:33 hmmmm well
04:33 hmmmm it doesn't need to be stable at all
04:33 hmmmm biomes are not officially supported
04:36 paramat yeah
04:38 gregorycu I don't know
04:38 gregorycu The floating coal just doesn't seem realistic to me
04:39 hmmmm lol
04:41 Bratmon gregorycu, Are you kidding?  I'm looking out my window right now, and I see nothing but giant mountains of floating coal.
04:41 gregorycu Wow
04:41 gregorycu The question is, do you need to see a doctor, or do I need to see a geologist?
04:42 Bratmon I think both.
04:42 hmmmm how bout a proctologist
04:42 gregorycu That sounds dirty
04:42 gregorycu It was more dirty than I expected
04:43 Bratmon I don't like where this is going.
04:43 hmmmm me neither.  it sounds like off-topic banter that belongs in #minetest
04:43 Bratmon That's fair.
04:44 gregorycu You started it! Anyway....
04:46 Zeno` pumice floats
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05:16 gregorycu I'm trying to learn how to use an ABM
05:16 gregorycu function(pos, node, active_object_count, active_object_count_wider), pos is the position, node is the node object
05:17 gregorycu How do I get a handle to the object the represents the node type
05:17 gregorycu (The thing that is registered with register_node)
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05:23 gregorycu minetest.registered_nodes is the thing you use
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05:51 Zeno` #1986
05:51 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1986 -- Fix visual_scale for NDT_PLANTLIKE being set too small by Zeno-
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08:55 Zeno` Any objections to #1986 being merged?
08:55 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1986 -- Fix visual_scale for NDT_PLANTLIKE being set too small by Zeno-
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09:05 Megaf Zeno`: I've noticed no regressions in that
09:05 Zeno` Nor I. It's a simple fix really
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09:22 Zeno` I'm going to push a simple fix to stop annoying warning. Changing https://github.com/minetest/minetest/​commit/67063ed59f91d2feae5011ca0c3767​dc182bf38d#diff-5a3527c6dddd0430cefor (s32 i = 0; i != sx * sy; i++)6d04404ea096baR75  to
09:23 Zeno` great paste zeno!
09:23 Zeno` changing https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/67063ed59f91d2feae5011ca0c3767dc182bf38d​#diff-5a3527c6dddd0430ce6d04404ea096baR75  to for (s32 i = 0; i != sx * sy; i++)
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09:55 Zeno` will merge 1986 in about 30 minutes
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10:15 casimir #1851 was closed, but random-input is still broken.
10:15 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1851 -- Cleanup updateCameraDirection and fix random input not working by Zeno-
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10:17 Zeno` in what way is it broken?
10:21 casimir It always looks into the same direction.
10:21 casimir I tested your pr and it fixed it.
10:21 Zeno` which PR?
10:22 casimir #1851
10:22 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1851 -- Cleanup updateCameraDirection and fix random input not working by Zeno-
10:23 Zeno` it's already merged though
10:25 casimir That is strange.
10:27 Zeno` indeed :)
10:42 casimir From what I see it was not merged, but I will take a closer look at this issue tomorrow when I have the time.
10:45 gregorycu Hello all
10:45 gregorycu What is the target C++ version?
10:48 Zeno` 98
10:49 gregorycu Ok
10:49 gregorycu Anyway, you got my PMs?
10:49 gregorycu 38% -> 25% CPU
10:49 gregorycu That's in debug, I'll have to try release
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13:45 Zeno` hmmmm, no
13:45 Zeno` just no
13:45 Zeno` I did not change that to a signed type for the reason you're suggesting at all
13:46 Zeno` I changed it because the literal is an int and also that int is the fastest type for a loop (in this case)
13:48 hmmmm unsigned int is slower than int??
13:48 Zeno` signedness did not even enter my mind
13:48 hmmmm that comment was based on both of your previous two commits
13:48 Zeno` u16 is not necessarily the native type of the target processor
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13:49 hmmmm yes, but unsigned int is not necessarily u16
13:49 Zeno` yes
13:49 Zeno` so int, in this case, is the correct type
13:49 Zeno` As for the previous commit... well, I hate warnings
13:50 hmmmm as for the compiler warning you silenced; i didn't even see that because my version of gcc emits a crapton of spurious warnings about conditions always evaluating to true/false due to type range limitations.. so it's easy to miss
13:50 Zeno` but this is not related
13:50 hmmmm i was holding out on that when somebody brought it up because it requires fixing the signedness of the coordinates which is an issue with a lot of my older code
13:50 Zeno` hmmmm, the previous commit was not suggesting you did anything wrong
13:50 hmmmm yeah but it's not a fix
13:50 hmmmm it just silences the warning
13:51 Zeno` not in a way that can fail though
13:51 hmmmm correctness is important
13:51 Zeno` it is correct
13:51 hmmmm using int for an array index variable is not correct
13:51 Zeno` x is signed, y is signed
13:51 hmmmm arrays should be accessed using unsigned types always
13:51 Zeno` hmm, of course it is when the condition being checked is... an int!
13:51 Zeno` the literal 4 is of type int
13:52 hmmmm yes... so?
13:52 Zeno` so int is correct
13:52 hmmmm no, it's not correct because you're using the variable 'i' as the index to an array
13:52 hmmmm the constant 4 gets promoted to 4u anyway
13:52 Zeno` why is that not correct?
13:53 hmmmm because it's possible for the array index to be negative
13:53 Zeno` array[-1] is most certainly valid
13:53 hmmmm it certainly compiles
13:53 hmmmm but that doesn't mean it's good practice
13:53 Zeno` array indices CAN be negative
13:53 Zeno` array[-1] is *(array -1)
13:53 hmmmm they can be
13:53 Zeno` of course
13:53 hmmmm but that doesn't mean it's good
13:54 hmmmm i can think of a million things that work just fine but are bad practice
13:54 Zeno` complain to the C and C++ standard's committees not me then :P
13:54 Zeno` I can think of a million reasons where negative indices are good
13:54 hmmmm in fact certain compilers will give warnings for signed indexes
13:55 gregorycu What is the type of array?
13:55 Zeno` they should not because it's a valid thing. If a compiler warns about that then it is non-compliant
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13:59 hmmmm it's a warning
14:00 Zeno` yes
14:00 hmmmm a warning says something could possibly be dangerous
14:00 Zeno` and too many warnings lead to people ignoring warnings
14:00 hmmmm not that it's non-conforming to the standard
14:00 hmmmm using strcpy() produces warnings under a lot of compilers; that's part of the standard though
14:01 hmmmm and what about while (foo = bar()) {
14:01 hmmmm that produces warnings
14:01 hmmmm it's still 100% correct C
14:01 Zeno` of course it does
14:01 Zeno` because it is 9 times out of 10 an error
14:01 hmmmm and using signed integral types for array indexes?
14:02 hmmmm not necessarily an error but could be improved
14:02 Zeno` I'm serious... *(array - n) is common
14:03 Zeno` but this is not what we're talking about here
14:03 hmmmm array notation implies different things to the person looking at the code
14:03 hmmmm vs. pointer arithmetic notation
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14:03 Zeno` they are the same
14:04 Zeno` but anyway, the real point is that u16 is almost certainly not the native word size of any CPU since about 20 years ago
14:04 Zeno` so there is an implicit cast to s32 (or whatever it may be). Of course -O3 will fix that, but *shrug*
14:05 Zeno` if the rhs of a condition is int then the lhs should be as well
14:05 Bratmon I think you two might be bikeshedding at this point.
14:05 hmmmm as far as i'm aware, the only speed guarantees are made with int_fastN_t
14:06 Zeno` hmmmm, correct
14:06 hmmmm where does it say that int is the fastest type on a given platform
14:06 hmmmm so your point is kinda moot
14:06 Zeno` not really
14:07 Zeno` I really don't believe we're arguing about this
14:07 Zeno` change https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit​/815876e7097fcd1e317ecfd867db807681f9cb1a#d​iff-c03ca828c6b8a7695f2cd7e52c316a3cR1188 back to u16 if you're so passionate
14:08 hmmmm you got all uptight over me pointing out that unsigned types should be preferred
14:08 Zeno` where?
14:08 Zeno` I said int
14:08 Zeno` int is signed
14:08 Zeno` you're confusing 2 different commits
14:09 hmmmm because they're both the same issue
14:09 Zeno` no, the previous commit was to fix a warning
14:10 Zeno` the commit you commented on is not related in any way and my previous commit did not influence *at all* my changing of the types of i
14:11 Zeno` but change them back to u16 if you like
14:11 Zeno` makes no difference to me
14:11 hmmmm you changed them for different reasons, but the underlying concern is that you both changed them to signed types
14:11 hmmmm that's all
14:11 hmmmm this is so asinine
14:11 Zeno` I changed them for different reasons
14:12 hmmmm that you did
14:14 Zeno` for (i = 0; i < 2; i++) { if (i == 0) {...} else if (i == 1) {...} } is crazier than what I did anyway heh
14:18 Zeno` or... ahem... does that construct make sense?
14:19 hmmmm you know you can be correct without needless pedantry
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14:21 Zeno` Seriously, the change I made in the commit you're talking about from u16 to int was made without any thought whatsoever; it was just automatic
14:21 Zeno` change them back
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14:31 luizrpgluiz hi
14:31 gregorycu hi
14:35 Zeno` hmm I think you should delete your comment
14:36 luizrpgluiz what could be the new version of minetest beyond the performance?
14:39 Zeno` performance
14:39 gregorycu Especially if you're on windows ;)
14:39 gregorycu Anyway, I can't repo that bug Zeno
14:40 gregorycu It's a MingW build
14:40 Zeno` gregorycu, better add a comment to the bug report then
14:40 gregorycu I'll see if I can repo with the same package
14:42 luizrpgluiz next year will leave the version 0.4.11?
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14:50 gregorycu I can't repo with either 32 or 64 bit versions, I've update the issue
14:51 luizrpgluiz :)
14:59 hmmmm https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit​/7dbb3916cbc7f8650664db327ae35d72d3a872fb
15:02 luizrpgluiz but I say leave officially
15:03 Zeno` hmmmm, can that be merged since we're in feature freeze?
15:03 Zeno` It's not exactly a bug fix
15:03 hmmmm it can be if you frame it a certain way
15:05 Zeno` I guess it looks cool and all, but what about the current blockers?
15:05 hmmmm not aware of any blockers
15:05 Zeno` https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest/labels/blocker
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15:07 hmmmm windows specific issue that i can't do anything about, font_size setting error we previously discussed and i thought we came to a conclusion on, bug there's a patch for which has a huge horrible bug i asked him to fix but he never did
15:10 luizrpgluiz it is a big mistake, it would be possible to fix it?
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15:14 Zeno` hmmmm, you have a solution to #3?
15:15 hmmmm i guess we can cherry pick the commit, fix it, then push to upstream
15:15 Zeno` I guess if you can fix it you should
15:20 luizrpgluiz my dear developers, I'm just a player, I would have to study well the C and C ++ and LUA to help you fix many bugs in the game
15:21 luizrpgluiz I have many ideas for the game
15:24 gregorycu Everybody is an ideasman
15:25 gregorycu You play on windows?
15:25 hmmmm probably a discussion better for #minetest
15:25 kilbith ^
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15:26 gregorycu If you do play on windows, can you try and repo this bug: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1959
15:35 hmmmm realbadangel's fix doesn't even work
15:35 hmmmm i just tested it
15:35 Zeno` what fix
15:36 hmmmm for the wieldhand being fully bright in dark scenes
15:37 Zeno` I can't see the fix
15:37 Zeno` link?
15:37 hmmmm https://github.com/RealBadAngel/minetest/com​mit/57c6e96a4e23781fa190c6ee9925bbb660187204​#diff-722710b5ecd9db42e7dd785dd517e186R919
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15:38 Zeno` That's not a fix for the issue
15:39 hmmmm erm... it was referenced in the issue
15:40 Zeno` not by RBA
15:43 Zeno` I thought you had your own fix
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15:59 Zeno` https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/7dbb3916cbc7f8650664db327ae35d72d3a872fb <--- WTH is this?
15:59 Zeno` there are no comments in the code to suggest it's temporary
16:00 Zeno` hmmmm ^^^
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16:12 gregorycu lol
16:13 gregorycu I just drastically increased the performance of the client in debug by replacing some vector<bool> with vector<char>
16:13 gregorycu (Not even kidding)
16:13 gregorycu 2fps -> 30fps
16:15 Calinou where did you do that, which file/line?
16:16 gregorycu collision.cpp
16:16 gregorycu 231, 232, 233
16:18 Calinou does it work on release builds?
16:18 gregorycu About to find out
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16:20 sfan5 gregorycu: bool shouldn't be that slow
16:20 celeron55 gregorycu: how did you figure out that optimization?
16:20 gregorycu Someone forgot to tell microsoft
16:20 celeron55 sfan5: it can be; vector<bool> is a special implementation
16:20 gregorycu I profiled
16:20 celeron55 what tool?
16:20 gregorycu Visual Studio Profiler
16:21 sfan5 hm
16:21 gregorycu In that function, there are 6 vectors
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16:21 sfan5 celeron55: wouldn't it make more sense to use std::bitset
16:21 gregorycu However, most of that function was spend in std::vector<bool>::push_back
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16:21 gregorycu Even though only 3 of the vectors were bool
16:21 Calinou the collision code is quite bad currently, I can easily believe it
16:21 Calinou the one who added nodeboxes worsened it
16:21 Calinou before it was reliable, you never got stuck anywhere
16:22 Calinou now, when you jump, you have 10 % chance to get stuck
16:22 celeron55 can someone else benchmark this change?
16:22 celeron55 2fps -> 30fps does not sound realistic though, that must be some kind of a specific situation
16:23 celeron55 like... walking on top of very complex nodebox thinggs
16:23 gregorycu It was in debug
16:23 gregorycu I've just profiled release
16:23 gregorycu One sec
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16:25 celeron55 the speed efficiency of a vector<bool> in visual C++ and g++ might differ a lot
16:26 celeron55 kahrl: i think you made most of that code; comments? 8)
16:26 sfan5 hm
16:27 sfan5 why does it stay stuck at 61 fps even with wanted_fps=max_fps=999 and vsync=false
16:28 gregorycu There looks to be some improvement, but not much
16:28 gregorycu Not as much as was in debug, buy far
16:29 gregorycu I was running singleplayer, let me try server-client
16:29 sfan5 singleplayer is server-client
16:29 sfan5 just local
16:29 Calinou sfan5, fps_max 0
16:29 Calinou not max_fps
16:29 Calinou also you can use 0 to disable limit
16:30 Calinou and wanted_fps should always be 30
16:30 sfan5 *** Error in `./minetest': double free or corruption (!prev): 0x0000000002dabd60 ***
16:30 sfan5 i dun even
16:30 sfan5 I just ^C'd it
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16:32 sfan5 ooh, 72 fps
16:32 celeron55 sfan5: fps_max?
16:33 sfan5 celeron55: nvm
16:34 sfan5 79 fps now
16:34 celeron55 also, calinou is very correct in that changing wanted_fps is optional
16:34 celeron55 it only affects the automatic view distance tuner
16:35 Calinou I used to use a big value like 100, and it severely decreased my FPS (I don't know why)
16:35 Calinou this was a while ago (2011-08), so the new autotuner may behave better
16:37 celeron55 a high fps in minetest won't feel very good on many systems though because some things tend to cause too large frametime spikes
16:37 celeron55 be happy if you happen to have one that doesn't suffer from that
16:38 gregorycu Well, I think there is some positive impact
16:38 gregorycu But it's not really conclusive in release
16:38 gregorycu In debug, there certainly is
16:38 gregorycu Massively
16:40 gregorycu Under Game:run, 75% of the time is spent in vector<bool>::push_back
16:40 gregorycu In debug
16:41 gregorycu This is Visual Studio 2013
16:41 gregorycu Anyway, I'm off to bed
16:42 celeron55 i think practically nobody is using MT in MSVC debug mode; not sure if this will yield any changes
16:42 celeron55 but good night 8)
16:52 sfan5 celeron55: i get about 4-7 more fps with the change
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16:53 celeron55 for real?
16:53 celeron55 i don't even believe that, i guess i'll test it myself
16:57 celeron55 no difference
17:03 celeron55 yes, no measurable difference
17:04 sfan5 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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17:05 celeron55 measuring this would require calculating an average FPS over time and it would be some small portion of one, i guess
17:05 sfan5 why are we not using std::bitset?
17:05 celeron55 you can't make a dynamically sized one
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17:06 celeron55 and it isn't optimized for speed either
17:06 sfan5 maybe we should write our own bitset implementation
17:07 sfan5 or maybe it's already fast enough currently
17:10 celeron55 what's the problem with vector<char> or vector<bool>
17:11 celeron55 it doesn't even have a performance difference except for MSVC debug builds, apparently
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17:22 shadowzone Gotta go
17:40 rubenwardy Can another core developer take a look at this? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1977
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18:28 MinerDad I've created a pull request for inventory prediction (bug 1374): https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1988
18:32 Calinou can it know if a move is rejected by server? does it revert them gracefully?
18:32 MinerDad yes
18:33 MinerDad there was already some client prediction, I just extended it to include more cases
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18:54 VanessaE Zeno's attempt to fix plantlike did not work correctly.
18:55 VanessaE the size is right, but vertical positioning is broken again
18:55 VanessaE http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/h​obbies/minetest/screenshots/Screenshot%20​-%2012182014%20-%2001%3a54%3a34%20PM.png\
18:55 VanessaE http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/h​obbies/minetest/screenshots/Screenshot%20​-%2012182014%20-%2001%3a54%3a34%20PM.png
18:55 Krock #1987 is quite interesting
18:55 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1987 -- Change TileSpec::frames to be std::vector not std::map by gregorycu
18:55 VanessaE that 45-degree plantlike part is not supposed to be embedded into the stalk of the tree, it's actually placed in that empty-ish space above it between the raillike parts :)
18:56 VanessaE do I need to open a new issue just to have it marked as a blocker or can someone just fix it? :)
18:57 VanessaE (zeno wanted me to test but I was unavailable at the time)
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19:27 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1989
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19:39 Krock There's a data possible loss while converting lua_Number to char32_t in l-mapgen.cpp 404
19:40 Krock Could someone include that fix to an other one?
19:44 Megaf #1989
19:44 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1989 -- Plantlike visual_scale causes plants to be shifted downward
19:45 Megaf we should just rewrite minetest...
19:46 kaeza I'll let you start doing that
19:46 kaeza please, now, do it
19:46 VanessaE ...
19:48 ImQ009 joined #minetest-dev
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19:57 Megaf kaeza: rightm, if I do, will you join me?
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20:06 Bratmon Rewriting minetest should take what, the rest of this afternoon?
20:07 Bratmon Maybe the evening?
20:09 Megaf MInetest is quite simple actually
20:09 Megaf the engine itself can be very simple and all stuff could me added as mods
20:10 Megaf imagine an engine writen using this engine, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horde3D
20:13 Bratmon I'm not a graphics programmer.  What exactly is the difference?
20:14 Megaf both Horde3D and Irrlicht are 3D engines that are suposed to be lightweight
20:14 Megaf but horde supports Lua and Python out of the box
20:14 Bratmon Okay.
20:16 Megaf VanessaE: what do you think? http://horde3d.org/features.html
20:18 Megaf well, minetest problem is not exactely the engine itself
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20:18 Megaf well, not the 3D engine, Irrlicht is pretty capable
20:18 Megaf The problem is the way it begun and the way it is now
20:19 Megaf linux Winfows 9.x...
20:19 Megaf Windows*
20:20 Megaf If I had the knowhow to re write it I would
20:23 PilzAdam Megaf, it only supports OpenGL and is probably not suitable for old hardware
20:23 Megaf It isn't
20:23 Megaf I just read that now
20:23 Megaf and it doesn't seems to support EGL
20:24 Megaf I would rewrite minetest engine if I had the know how
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20:49 VanessaE Megaf: we don't need a new engine.
20:49 paramat left #minetest-dev
20:50 VanessaE I won't say what I think we DO need because I'll undoubtedly stick my foot in my mou--keyboard.
20:50 Megaf no, we need the same minetest, but rewriten, with all dead/old code removed
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20:56 VanessaE Megaf: the graphics stack upon which a game engine runs is also called an engine
20:56 celeron55 Megaf: if you had the know how, you would have much more interesting things to do
20:56 VanessaE e.g. irrlicht --> "The Irrlicht Engine is an open source high performance realtime 3D engine written in C++."
20:59 Megaf VanessaE: I like Irrlicht, but some of the problems that Minetest has it's not even Minetest fault, it's Irrlichts
21:00 Megaf celeron55: you mean, in real life or helping minetest ? :P
21:01 twoelk If I had the knowledge I might design myself a spacecraft, fly to the moon, laser myself some nice moon rock cubes and recreate some Minetest worlds in a 1node = 1meter scale.
21:02 * twoelk runs outside and stares at the moon
21:02 celeron55 lol
21:02 celeron55 it's only halfway rocket science
21:03 celeron55 Megaf: are you able to make a list of everything that you know is irrlicht's fault?
21:03 celeron55 because that would be interesting and useful
21:03 celeron55 (and i would also be able to correct you where you are wrong)
21:04 Megaf celeron55: Yep, I can list two issue right now
21:04 celeron55 i'm not interested in randomly picked issues, they aren't very constructive in planning for the far future
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21:05 celeron55 a complete list would be
21:05 Megaf celeron55: so, EGL, the support is experimental on Irricht and it doesnt work on the Raspberry Pi
21:05 Megaf but fortunetaly people are making progress on Gallium
21:05 Megaf and copy and paste on Linux
21:06 Megaf Copy and paste. Proper font handling (not in a hacky way like sapier is doing)
21:06 hmmmm how is sapier's font handling hacky?
21:07 neoascetic can someone tell me in which file server pushes world state to client?
21:08 hmmmm server.cpp
21:08 Megaf hmmmm: he made an image for every letter
21:09 celeron55 have you ever heard of bitmap fonts? i don't understand why so many of them were added to the repo but yes, irrlicht is quite oldschool in not natively supporting others (MT supports vector fonts though)
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21:22 Megaf celeron55: so why arent they used?
21:22 Megaf anyway, it worked with TTF
21:23 VanessaE the better question is, why do we still care about bitmapped fonts/non-truetype in this day and age?
21:23 VanessaE is there some random platform on which freetype can't be depended upon?
21:24 Megaf VanessaE:  GNU/Linux, BSD, OS X, BeOS/Haiku, Windows all support TTF
21:24 VanessaE I'm with c55 on this one, the addition of those bitmapped fonts doesn't make a lot of sense to me either.
21:24 VanessaE Megaf: those are operating systems, I meant hardware platforms
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21:40 RealBadAngel hi
21:40 VanessaE hi
21:41 roniz hi
21:42 neoascetic joined #minetest-dev
21:46 RealBadAngel why https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/815876e7097fcd1e317ecfd867db807681f9cb1a ?
21:46 RealBadAngel this completely breaks the fixes to plantlike i made lately
21:47 roniz i am using 0.4.10
21:47 roniz how do I generate a v7 mapgen through the linux command line?
21:47 roniz because I only have ssh access to the server
21:48 VanessaE RealBadAngel: your fixes broke plantlike anyway...
21:48 RealBadAngel VanessaE, how exactly?
21:48 VanessaE RealBadAngel: the stuff we discussed in /msg ?
21:49 VanessaE or just #1978 anyway
21:49 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1978 -- plantlike drawtype visual_scale is way too small now
21:49 RealBadAngel its NOT to small
21:49 VanessaE it IS too small
21:49 RealBadAngel its correct (or rather was)
21:49 RealBadAngel before it was too big
21:49 VanessaE well was, until that commit that resulted in bug #1989
21:49 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1989 -- Plantlike visual_scale causes plants to be shifted downward
21:49 VanessaE no, you can't change the API like THAT
21:50 VanessaE that's backward incompatible
21:50 RealBadAngel ofc it wasnt backwards compatinble
21:50 RealBadAngel now you have same shit again
21:50 RealBadAngel and floating and improper scaled plants again
21:51 VanessaE yeah, I don't know why zeno committed this without giving me a chance to test it (he DID want me to test but I was afk)
21:51 RealBadAngel you just used to the bug and start called it normal behaviour dammit
21:51 VanessaE um, visual_scale = 2  making a plant twice as big is not a bug...
21:51 RealBadAngel go on, make now plant twice as big
21:52 RealBadAngel shit
21:52 VanessaE the only problem here is the vertical positioning of the plant.  the scale is perfect.
21:53 RealBadAngel code doesnt care about visual scale other than 1.0 and above
21:54 RealBadAngel plant will be allways burried
21:54 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit​/815876e7097fcd1e317ecfd867db807681f9cb1a#d​iff-c03ca828c6b8a7695f2cd7e52c316a3cR1191
21:54 RealBadAngel this is fucking WRONG
21:55 RealBadAngel whole commit is just a mess
21:57 VanessaE I didn't write the patch but what I *do* know is the correct place to fix this is there at line 1191/1192
21:58 VanessaE those equations at 1174 and prior need to remain effectively the same or it fucks up the size of the image
21:58 RealBadAngel nvm, i will trash this code anyway. plantlike will be also converted to meshnode
21:58 VanessaE no, it's too late in the cycle
21:58 VanessaE we're in feature freeze now
21:59 VanessaE release is in less than a week
21:59 RealBadAngel i have made the conversion code month ago
21:59 RealBadAngel wont push it now, dont worry
21:59 RealBadAngel but its obsolete anyway
22:00 RealBadAngel what im angry at he broke the positioning of the plants
22:00 RealBadAngel without even asking bout it
22:01 VanessaE he asked.
22:01 VanessaE I wasn't here to test his fix
22:01 VanessaE you weren't here to comment
22:01 VanessaE idk why he proceeded though
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22:01 RealBadAngel btw, funny to see dozens of new commits in feature freeze phase and see my commit blocked by PilzAdam
22:02 VanessaE also:
22:02 RealBadAngel which wasnt a feature
22:03 RealBadAngel VanessaE, yes?
22:03 VanessaE I'm comparing the code from before you changed it (when you broke the visual scale) to after zeno's last patch
22:03 RealBadAngel i havent broke it, i just set it to regular and correct scale
22:03 VanessaE you broke it.
22:03 RealBadAngel before it was broken
22:03 VanessaE the scale was fine before.
22:04 VanessaE the positioning is what was broke.
22:04 VanessaE anyway the first part up to line 1174 basically looks like a complete revert of your original patch
22:04 VanessaE (well 1174 as it exists today)
22:05 VanessaE my gut keeps telling me this could be solved by just adding BS / 2 to the equation at line 1192 and losing the conditional.
22:05 VanessaE but that's probably wrong (I haven't tried it)
22:05 VanessaE something like,  vertices[i].Pos.Y -= BS/2 + BS/2 * (1 - f.visual_scale);
22:06 hmmmm https://github.com/blog/1938-git​-client-vulnerability-announced
22:06 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, your judgement of feature / bugfix, backwards compatibility and broken / non-broken lets me wonder if you are still a suitable for being a core dev
22:08 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, you are ALWAYS against what im doing, and that pisses me off
22:08 VanessaE RealBadAngel: see above.  What effect would that change have?
22:08 VanessaE enough of the banter, let's just fucking FIX THIS RIGHT?  PLEASE.
22:08 RealBadAngel VanessaE, i will try it
22:09 RealBadAngel gimme a few minutes to test it
22:10 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, and fix that damn screwdriver rewrite, its broken
22:10 VanessaE screw it, I'll just try it myself.
22:10 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, I'm not always against what you are doing; e.g. the meshnode drawtype is cool
22:11 PilzAdam btw, RealBadAngel, https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/379
22:11 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, you have asked me whats wrong with rewrite then pissed on my opinion
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22:12 PilzAdam yes, I asked what is wrong with the rewrite, not which bugs already existed before the rewrite
22:12 PilzAdam you seem to still not understand that
22:12 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, dont be so strict
22:13 RealBadAngel that was a good time to take care of it and you know that
22:14 PilzAdam it wasn't; the "rewrite" just changed the way the player interacts with it; not how it internally works
22:14 PilzAdam anyway, thats not the point now
22:14 RealBadAngel oh, ok
22:15 RealBadAngel about plantlike, imho it should be aware of it
22:15 PilzAdam you generally seem to have a quite different judgement of things than I do
22:16 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, quite normal, im not a copy of you, nobody is ;)
22:17 RealBadAngel in general we should consider a flag for screwdriver
22:17 PilzAdam for example, you think breaking backwards compatibility is reasonable if you think the current way is "broken"
22:17 PilzAdam (e.g. plantlike)
22:17 RealBadAngel yes, sometimes i do
22:17 PilzAdam it's not
22:18 PilzAdam it's even worse when notifying nobody about it
22:18 RealBadAngel if plant is floating or being burried (depending on the scale) and API says it should be positioned on the ground...
22:18 RealBadAngel wheres the bug?
22:18 PilzAdam e.g. nobody knew that you intentionally broke the API, hence Zeno's "fix"
22:19 RealBadAngel everybody in the channel knew
22:19 RealBadAngel you was away propably
22:19 PilzAdam not enough people, it seems
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22:19 RealBadAngel that change was discussed
22:19 PilzAdam with whom?
22:19 RealBadAngel im not pushing anything lately without discussion
22:20 RealBadAngel see the commit and pictures
22:20 RealBadAngel and the issue which was opened for that
22:21 PilzAdam API changes previously even had forum posts: https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=18&amp;t=6808
22:21 PilzAdam "everyone in the channel" is not enough
22:21 PilzAdam it is a project goal to have a stable API between releases; you violated that goal
22:23 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1747
22:24 RealBadAngel do you think that was a normal behaviour? and that was api claimed?
22:25 PilzAdam you broke VanessaE's mod
22:25 gregorycu What is the MeshUpdateThread?
22:25 RealBadAngel bug being not fixed for too long became a feature
22:26 RealBadAngel but thats not an excuse to not fix it
22:26 VanessaE there was nothing wrong with the visual_scale size range
22:26 PilzAdam how is making nodes 10 times bigger a fix for floating plants?
22:26 VanessaE only the Y position was bad.
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22:26 RealBadAngel at which point something was 10x bigger??
22:26 PilzAdam see VanessaE's original issue
22:27 VanessaE RealBadAngel: that was an entity with mesh drawtype!
22:27 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, i think you messed up threads
22:28 PilzAdam #1978
22:28 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1978 -- plantlike drawtype visual_scale is way too small now
22:28 PilzAdam s/bigger/smaller
22:29 PilzAdam there are other things that make me question your judgment of things, too (besides your views on compatibility)
22:29 RealBadAngel VanessaE, thx to my fixes plants were perfectly the same size as other "pixels" around
22:30 PilzAdam there were 2 incidences of people bisecting a problem down to one of your commits; and you simply didn't accept it and said it was caused by someone else
22:30 RealBadAngel you just got used to buggy behaviour and called it NORMAL
22:31 PilzAdam and then there is this screwdriver thing, where you were simply unable to judge the contents of a PR and constantly pointing to an unrelated / out of scope bug
22:31 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, afaik last time some1 was bisecting someting i fixed that
22:32 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, one of it was me trying to find the cause for #1705
22:32 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1705 -- Regression in smooth day-night transition
22:32 gregorycu You two should stop fighting :P
22:32 PilzAdam after bisecting, you tried to tell me that this wasn't a regression
22:32 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, this is also fixed
22:32 gregorycu And someone should answer my question
22:32 PilzAdam and that your commit didn't cause it
22:32 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, finally, after hours of discussing
22:33 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, i was hoping for another solution
22:33 RealBadAngel sadly in both cases i was forced to get back to old code
22:33 PilzAdam then you should have said that, instead of saying it's not caused by you
22:33 RealBadAngel i did
22:34 PilzAdam do you really want me to dig up the logs?
22:34 RealBadAngel but youre lately not around :P
22:34 RealBadAngel if i didnt, i wouldnt be fixing that
22:34 PilzAdam I'm not saying that you are "not good", or "bad"; I'm just saying that your way of reasoning seems to be quite different to mine
22:35 PilzAdam that makes us quite incompatible as discussion participants
22:35 PilzAdam and I don't like that
22:35 RealBadAngel do you expect me to like that on the other hand?
22:36 RealBadAngel i always find you in the opposite corner of the ring
22:36 PilzAdam it's not about oppinions (I think)
22:37 neoascetic why server.cpp deals with playersao while ServerEnvironment deals with player object?
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22:39 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, also, because of bias, I think that my "way of thinking" is better, so I'd like to see your right to vote on PR's removed
22:40 VanessaE while you guys are bitching at each other, I'm actually trying to fix this the right way
22:40 VanessaE http://pastebin.com/9XSiq5t6
22:40 VanessaE there.
22:41 VanessaE that works fine for anything that's visual_scale = 1.0 or larger.
22:41 VanessaE no change to anywhere else in the code.
22:41 gregorycu 8% of the render loop is checking settings, just saying
22:41 RealBadAngel VanessaE, please dont reinvent the wheel: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1871/f​iles#diff-c03ca828c6b8a7695f2cd7e52c316a3cR1183
22:42 VanessaE I don't have anything handy that has a scale of less than 1.0, can someone please check?
22:42 RealBadAngel this code doesnt use any mind tricks, just the same visual scale for everything
22:42 VanessaE RealBadAngel: look, I don't know enough C++ to even begin to touch other parts of the engine, this little piece I can at least understand.
22:42 VanessaE this works.
22:43 RealBadAngel ofc to some point
22:43 VanessaE screw it, I'll just test the small stuff too
22:43 RealBadAngel main problem of the drawtypes is they were written by different folks
22:43 hmmmm breaking compatibility is bad
22:43 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, to put it in other words: I don't trust you to judge PRs the same I trust the other devs
22:43 hmmmm and, yeah, if a bug stays around long enough, it becomes the expected version
22:44 hmmmm to 'fix' this, have an option to use the fixed version
22:45 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, is my view on this understandable or do you think I'm just an ass?
22:46 VanessaE opk, confirmed
22:46 RealBadAngel youre stubborn the same way as i do :)
22:46 VanessaE my fix works.
22:46 VanessaE PR incoming in a few minutes.
22:46 VanessaE or can someone just take that paste and use it please?
22:46 VanessaE save me a little trouble  :)
22:48 RealBadAngel hmm, but such bugs are pain in the ass, like the positioning in plants, or torchlike being upside down for param2 = 0
22:48 RealBadAngel hmmmm, ^
22:48 hmmmm boo fucking hoo
22:48 RealBadAngel keeping compability means extra code in rendering loops
22:48 RealBadAngel which is not wise
22:49 hmmmm you can remove the extra compatibility code when 0.5.0 comes out
22:50 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1991
22:50 VanessaE there
22:50 VanessaE assuming I did it right, this works for me
22:50 RealBadAngel hmmmm, thats why im not pushing my recent changes into current tree, atm i trying to convert as much as i can to native irrlicht meshes
22:51 RealBadAngel this will speed things up and solve the weird issues like with plants
22:51 RealBadAngel one model for an object and let irrlicht rotate it or scale
22:55 VanessaE um, hello?
22:56 VanessaE are you guys gonna bitch at each other or is someone gonna take a look at a one-line pull to fix this issue, and at least tell me if I should go jump in a lake?
22:56 RealBadAngel VanessaE, hrm
22:56 RealBadAngel arent those two lines mathematically the same?
22:56 VanessaE s/at a/at that/
22:56 VanessaE RealBadAngel: obviously not, or it wouldn't have fixed it
22:56 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1991/f​iles#diff-c03ca828c6b8a7695f2cd7e52c316a3cL1192
22:57 VanessaE besides, 1 - X is rarely equivalent to X - 1  :-)
22:57 VanessaE (unless X happens to equal 1)
22:57 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, they are
22:57 PilzAdam (mathematically equivalent)
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22:58 jin_xi so, lake it is
23:00 VanessaE well somehow it works.
23:01 VanessaE maybe just because of the lack of the conditional.
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23:08 RealBadAngel sorry, seems like i had problems with my connection
23:12 * VanessaE wanders off
23:12 VanessaE (it'll take me a few minutes to get to the nearest lake to make the aforementioned jump)
23:13 jin_xi why? did you test again? was it a ghost fix?
23:13 RealBadAngel jin_xi, zeno's fix broken my fix then VE fixed it again
23:14 VanessaE jin_xi: no, it works, but the real fix was just getting rid of that conditional; my equation is mathematically the same as the original.
23:14 RealBadAngel VanessaE, not the original
23:14 RealBadAngel original was fucked up, youre at the point of my fix
23:15 VanessaE well same as what's already there.
23:15 RealBadAngel but with opposite signs just lol ;)
23:16 VanessaE well with that little fix, now plantlike behaves exactly like it should
23:16 VanessaE corret sizing, correct positioning
23:16 VanessaE or so it appears.
23:18 hmmmm so
23:18 hmmmm I really don't like https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/7dbb3916cbc7f8650664db327ae35d72d3a872fb
23:19 hmmmm i can remove that if minetest_game and minimal have a subset of paramat's biomes
23:19 hmmmm thoughts?
23:20 VanessaE this would affect mgv5 and mgv7 only I presume?
23:20 hmmmm yep
23:21 VanessaE yeah, seems reasonable to me, but expect complaints about lack of beaches.
23:21 hmmmm don't care
23:21 VanessaE (but, better that ^^^^ than all-stone)
23:21 hmmmm it'll be something different from the usual complaint
23:22 exio4 the whole map is just grass!
23:23 VanessaE then again the aforementioned subset would likely be more than just grass
23:33 RealBadAngel VanessaE, so im ok with the fix by now
23:34 VanessaE *GASP*
23:38 RealBadAngel before 0.4.11 i will fix just that issue with wielded being lit when shaders on
23:39 paramat joined #minetest-dev
23:40 RealBadAngel the other code is not yet ready to go into stable, main change (moving highlighted and cracks to separate scene node) has to be widely tested before merging
23:40 RealBadAngel after that is done i can work on other things
23:41 RealBadAngel point is i need to have clean mapblock mesh, to turn it into mesh with tangents
23:42 proller joined #minetest-dev
23:43 paramat hmmmm i could submit a simplified version of my v5/v7 biomes branch if you want (to be replaced by the full system in 0.4.12): plains with grasses/flowers (no trees perhaps), simple beaches and sand underwater
23:43 hmmmm sure
23:45 paramat okay
23:51 paramat since schems by lua table is fixed i might also be able to whip up a quick appletree with randomised leaves and apples
23:54 paramat (but then again maybe not, i'd rather do the tree schems right or not at all ... okay just plains will do)

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