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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-12-02

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Time Nick Message
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02:03 paramat okay hmmmm this is rebased and ready for review/merge https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1892 (add definable node_stone to mgv5 and mgv7, plus other stuff)
02:17 paramat https://cdn.mediacru.sh/1w9qknwcgA1I.png caves are making a mess of mgv7, especially at y = 47, good thing they will be replaced with 3D noise caves. also i would like to add 1 up 1 down overgeneration to mgv7
02:40 paramat there is a problem with the idea of auto scaling heat and humidity spreads from number of biomes: it is usually necessary to stack biomes vertically, to have beaches and highland biomes, floatland biomes etc
02:46 paramat so i have a request, if you able to find time, please could you make the heat and humidity noises settable in .conf? this solves other problems as well
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04:51 paramat ah .. biomes is written for worlds without overhangs. biome for each entire mapchunk column is set from the highest surface in the mapchunk. this can't cope with vertically stacked biomes or overhangs, biome needs to be recalculated each time a new top surface is detected. i will fix! =)
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05:00 hmmmm hi paramat
05:00 hmmmm err....
05:00 hmmmm he left within 5 minutes
05:01 hmmmm in any case, yeah I know about the overhang biome problem... the only real solution to this is to define a "biome class" which correlates to one or more biomes existing between different heights
05:02 hmmmm or make biomes use 3d noise (gross!)
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09:02 hmmmm https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest/commit​/367448805ebb6ac3117d2687e3aac1b94e919a33
09:02 hmmmm objections??
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14:07 paramat sorry hmmmmm i was busy. now i see what you mean by biomes being in a bad way, and understand why you can afford to calculate biomes from voronoi: because it's only done once per mapchunk. i will contemplate a solution, perhaps recalculating at beach level and defining beach/ocean biomes. anyway this means mgv5 biomes will still be unstable for 0.4.11
14:12 paramat mgv7 is awesome but needs tuning, yes i am offering to do this after 0.4.11, i can also add 3D noise caves
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15:24 jin_xi yeah so good to see you doing c++ mapgen work paramat!
15:26 paramat =)
15:26 * Megaf_ would like to write its own mapgen in lua...
15:26 Megaf_ I just a need a flat surface
15:27 Megaf_ with a very specific block
15:32 paramat there's a mod for that somewhere
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15:34 Amaz https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=9772 ?
15:36 paramat yep
15:38 hmmmm paramat!
15:38 hmmmm i needed to talk to you about something
15:39 hmmmm oh i see
15:40 paramat hi
15:40 hmmmm right so like I was saying, the current way I have biomes is retarded and i want to change it
15:41 hmmmm having an absolute min_height/max_height for biomes makes it impossible to precalculate a biome correlation map
15:42 paramat yes im seeing the problems now
15:42 hmmmm btw, how did you solve the issue of dirt_with_grass being placed beneath water?
15:43 paramat lol i didn't, just let it be there
15:43 hmmmm eww =/
15:43 hmmmm so yeah that brings up yet another issue with biomes and overhangs
15:44 paramat however that will be solved if we get biomes working, so i couldn't be bothered to worry about that
15:44 hmmmm so what if underneath the overhang there's a pool of water, and the biome stays as plains instead of beach
15:44 paramat im working on a hack (sorry) that i'll push soon for you to see
15:45 hmmmm the original idea was to have a separate "ocean" biome
15:46 hmmmm which has top_node == default:dirt rather than default:dirt_with_grass
15:46 hmmmm so I'm wondering if there is still merit in keeping absolute min/max heights
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15:48 paramat my hack calculates an 'ocean/beach biomemap' calculated with y = water_level + 3
15:49 paramat then define ocean/beach biomes below the land/floatland biomes
15:49 paramat still has bugs but will now push
15:51 hmmmm wait but that's no good
15:51 paramat i only discovered all this because i couldn't get sheet ice to work
15:51 hmmmm it'd have to be y == water_level or else it'd still place the dirt with grass
15:52 paramat yes i see a problem there
15:53 paramat maybe biome definition will have to include a 'node_beach'
15:53 paramat place that near water level
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15:53 hmmmm aghh
15:53 hmmmm all these different node_thingies
15:53 hmmmm i was honestly considering having some hard-coded biomes that do special things that registered biomes won't be able to do
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15:54 hmmmm you'd be able to remove them, but not add any new ones
15:54 hmmmm yes? no?
15:54 hmmmm the reason why Minecraft has none of these problems is because it's all hardcoded to shit
15:54 paramat possibly
15:55 paramat i can see why you got frustrated
15:56 paramat i feel like persevering with what we have though and improve it, many people like it
15:56 paramat but hey why not have another mapgen system? if you're inspired do it
15:57 paramat there's always room for specialist mapgens
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15:57 paramat .. and multiple biome systems
15:57 hmmmm that is true
15:57 hmmmm multiple biome systems sounds like a horror
15:58 hmmmm all i know for sure is that i absolutely hate the current biome system
15:58 twoelk maybe beach should not be like other biomes but rather look for other things like flatland besides water of at least some volume and thus override other biom info
15:59 Megaf_ Thanks Amaz !
15:59 paramat hmmmmm you're fed up with it so i'll see what i can do with it. if you come up with a better system that can then be the primary system, no problem
16:00 paramat i really feel future mapgens should make use of the vertical space, so vertically stacked or 'floatland' biomes need to be coped with
16:01 paramat i see your 'nether' 'aether' type biomes in the code, hope to see these developed
16:02 twoelk btw underwatergrass = seagrass-meadows (me dreaming of lovely places I remember visiting)
16:04 VanessaE what's wrong with grass under the water?
16:06 PenguinDad twoelk: why not underwater grass == algae?
16:07 paramat its okay when it's intentional
16:11 twoelk seagrass-meadows are beautiful to swim through, algae can be a lot gloomier at times, at least some sorts
16:13 paramat hmmmm since mgv7 is your mapgen you could perhaps develop a new biome system in that while i see what i can do with improving the current system in mgv5. both mapgen are highly unstable anyway so we might as well experiment
16:17 paramat so far i'm thinkng adding node_beach, node_underwater etc to a biome definition to cope with the verticality, making biomes strictly 2D. need a nap bbl O/
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17:51 Calinou One or more parameters were invalid or use too much memory
17:51 Calinou how to fix?
17:51 Calinou it breaks my worlds
17:52 VanessaE perlin parameters - probably number of octaves
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17:56 rubenwardy celeron55: why is there no subgame section on minetest.net? I would suggest making a top level item called "Customisation" and putting mods, texture packs and subgames underneath it in the drop down.
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18:32 VanessaE shit, I get the same error as Calinou now
18:33 Calinou report on issue tracker?
18:33 Calinou this is a blocker
18:33 VanessaE blocker outright.
18:33 VanessaE this breaks a known good world that barely has any use at all (one of my testing worlds)
18:34 VanessaE (mgv6, default mapgen params, not even 0.1% explored)
18:36 VanessaE nearly every single world in my list is broken now.
18:37 twoelk :-(
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19:15 celeron55 rubenwardy: so, how exactly do you want it to be like, then?
19:16 Calinou probably add popular subgames to it, like Mods and  Texture Packs
19:16 Calinou (by the way, both of these should be updated)
19:17 rubenwardy I guess like (popular) mods, but for games.
19:17 rubenwardy Suggesting in this topic https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=3&t=10675
19:17 celeron55 is this good? http://c55.me/test/minetest.net/doku.php
19:18 celeron55 actually now that there is space, i'll move screenshots away from downloads
19:18 rubenwardy yes
19:18 rubenwardy perfect
19:18 VanessaE that's good actually.  and, screenshots under Community I think.
19:19 celeron55 what? why?
19:19 rubenwardy Screenshots and features lists are the first things I look for when visiting a new site
19:19 VanessaE no specific reason, I'm just not one to have lots of top-level menu items is all
19:20 VanessaE besides, "Have a look at some screenshots, taken by the community."
19:20 VanessaE :)
19:20 rubenwardy No, I think screenshots on top level. You could put development and donate under "contribute", if you are low on space.
19:20 rubenwardy But, meg
19:20 rubenwardy *h
19:20 * Krock gives celeron55 © #footer
19:21 rubenwardy blue headers actually look quite nice.
19:21 celeron55 lol, looks like the layout breaks when i moved donate away from top level (i don't think it needs to be there)
19:21 Krock I would prefer a dashed line under the sub-headers
19:22 Krock But well, it's already much better than the current
19:22 rubenwardy You probably hard coded in CSS the last navbar to be donate.
19:22 rubenwardy XD
19:22 celeron55 gaah
19:22 celeron55 i'm not interested in fixing this layout for a non-donate last link
19:22 rubenwardy nth-child(last), iirc
19:23 celeron55 i'll put screenshots there
19:23 Krock Ah and the "Developement" tab is cut-off
19:23 rubenwardy Layout looks fine except the drop down being cropped.
19:24 celeron55 hmm, 6 seems to be one too much in my eyes
19:24 celeron55 i'll leave fixing the dropdown to someone who is most annoyed by it
19:26 celeron55 now minetest.net is updated and the repo of that layout is here if someone wants to fix it: https://github.com/celeron55​/minetest.net_dokutemplate3
19:27 celeron55 and these two pages need to be created: http://minetest.net/customize http://minetest.net/subgames
19:28 rubenwardy I am creating subgames
19:28 celeron55 the "customize" page should contain links to each of the dropdown pages (in addition to some other content it may have)
19:28 celeron55 well i'll add a stub version of it
19:35 rubenwardy Suggestions for popular subgames? http://www.minetest.net/subgames
19:35 rubenwardy Actually, I'll look at the server list
19:37 celeron55 i fixed the cut-in-half dropdown now
19:37 rubenwardy Yay :)
19:38 celeron55 well you have an error on the page
19:38 rubenwardy The image resizing is broken.
19:38 celeron55 "More mods are available on the forum"
19:38 rubenwardy fixed
19:40 celeron55 i have no idea about image resizing
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19:40 celeron55 i haven't seen any errors from dokuwiki
19:40 celeron55 so i have no practical way of fixing it
19:41 rubenwardy This image should have a width of 200: http://www.minetest.net/_media/​screenshot_4031722052.png?w=200
19:41 rubenwardy It doesn't seem to be going through a php script
19:41 rubenwardy etc
19:42 celeron55 maybe the server doesn't have libgd nor imagemagick
19:42 celeron55 i have no control over that in that hosting really
19:42 celeron55 or maybe the cache is just broken in whatever way
19:43 celeron55 looks like it has imagemagick
19:45 celeron55 bleh, i really am not interested in fighting with this so live with it
19:46 celeron55 one day i'll move it to some other host
19:46 celeron55 (or maybe i'll die before that)
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20:11 twoelk rubenwardy: you could link to the wiki http://wiki.minetest.net/Games
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20:11 twoelk or even here http://wiki.minetest.net/List_of_Games
20:11 kilbith why "donations" link has disappeared ? money is the "nerve of war" as we said here
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21:11 celeron55 kilbith: "development" dropdown
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21:35 VanessaE ok.  rollback_check is insanely slow with a check radius of 0.  e.g. /rollback_check 0 9999999
21:35 VanessaE takes an insane amount of time
21:36 VanessaE (radius 0 is supposed to be "only check *this* node", is it not?)
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