Time  Nick         Message
03:20 ShadowNinja  Oh, BTW, I support a feature freeze now.
03:20 ShadowNinja  I'll do the honors if I get another agreement (IIRC there was already one or two).
03:24 ShadowNinja  That would be Zeno`.
03:24 Zeno`        Yes I would agree
03:24 Zeno`        would still*
03:24 ShadowNinja  If paramat thinks MGv5 needs work just mark it as indev.
03:25 RealBadAngel hi
03:25 VanessaE     hi
03:25 RealBadAngel before that i need to push a few things
03:25 paramat      seems too early
03:26 RealBadAngel just give me 2 days (the weekend) at least
03:27 VanessaE     freeze now would be good after RBA pushes his extrude thing.  RBA:  can you check if https://github.com/VanessaE/plantlife_modpack/issues/25 is a regression or not?  I think it happened when you tweaked how plants are positioned when scaled
03:27 VanessaE     I fixed that ^^^ in plantlife already but I want to know if my fix was even necessary (should it have been fixed in the engine instead?)
03:27 ShadowNinja  Set it for 6th of December (Saturday)?
03:27 VanessaE     ShadowNinja: no, at least two weeks out
03:28 VanessaE     I think we kinda agreed that a week is too soon
03:28 paramat      how about releasing around winter solstice?
03:28 ShadowNinja  VanessaE: Eh, that takes us a bit close if we're going for a christmas release.
03:28 RealBadAngel VanessaE, extruded plants needs the same fixes as i did to regular ones before
03:28 VanessaE     ShadowNinja: I know.
03:28 ShadowNinja  VanessaE: That's the start, not the end BTW.
03:29 VanessaE     RealBadAngel: ok, but I'm talking about the relative scale; take a look at the bug report.
03:29 RealBadAngel 2nd mesh needs also to be offseted a bit to avoid z fighting in the middle
03:29 paramat      i was planning to add pinetrees and default biomes for mgv5/v7, including default snow biomes, apt for a midwinter release
03:29 paramat      anyway hmmmm usually does the release thing
03:30 RealBadAngel also i need to re-add lighting to shaders
03:30 paramat      "just mark it as indev" heheh unfortunate choice of word for a mapgen
03:35 Zeno`        I dunno VanessaE ... I quite like those treefern screenshots
03:35 VanessaE     Zeno`:  heh
03:37 RealBadAngel Zeno`, you have linked me screens from profiler about a patch
03:37 RealBadAngel but wheres that patch?
03:37 paramat      so i guess i would like 1 week minimum before freeze
03:38 Zeno`        RealBadAngel, I closed it. I'm going to rewrite it after feedback was received
03:38 VanessaE     ShadowNinja: ok, in that case I'll go with that; I read that as "a week-long freeze"
03:38 Zeno`        RealBadAngel, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1879
03:38 VanessaE     not like I have much actual say in the matter of course :P
03:41 Zeno`        I can probably just cache the value in the class that needs it anyway. Changing enable_shaders using set seems to make no difference when playing the game anyway
03:42 Zeno`        Then at least the mesh updates will be improved. The ones in run() will still be there until I think of a better approach to this but *shrug*
03:59 paramat      hmmmm my plans for biomes are 1. add 'node_stone' to biome parameters 2. use 3 octaves 0.5 persistence for heat/humidity to reduce the amount of tiny biomes and biome stripes 3. move heat and humidity noises back into each mapgen and make them user-adjustable, so we can tune biome spreads to the scale of each mapgen and also compensate for number of biomes
08:19 Megaf        Morning Zeno`
08:19 Megaf        Zeno`: have you seen my ms_print output?
08:20 Zeno`        no, I did see it mentioned but I was asleep :)
08:21 Megaf        understandable
08:21 Megaf        Zeno`: https://gist.github.com/Megaf/50aac763e9f0bf85adb9
08:22 Zeno`        How much RAM was in use at that time?
08:22 Zeno`        Or, alternatively, how long had the server been running?
08:23 Megaf        Zeno`: about an hour I believe
08:24 Megaf        Zeno`: I even played on the server while running Valgrind, and ran my mesecon/pipeworks machines
08:26 Megaf        I wish I could better undertand this output https://gist.githubusercontent.com/Megaf/50aac763e9f0bf85adb9/raw/f91788eee3a586d292f54302ce8c3a6d74da0f48/massif.out.1536.ms_print
08:26 Megaf        (That's the same as the other link, but raw)
08:29 Zeno`        Good stuff. I'll look at it more closely after I eat
08:30 Megaf        Zeno`: I hope that helps
08:30 Megaf        Zeno`: I can run again later on, I have a copy of my server in another computer, where I can run it and do tests at will
09:11 Calinou      how do I bring one of my fork repositories (a branch) up-to-date?
09:11 Calinou      without messing up with commit history
09:11 Calinou      I'd like to make a pull_request for minetest_game without invalidating my previous ones
09:14 jin_xi       something along the lines of pulling newest masters, then rebase your branches
09:14 Calinou      what commands do that?
09:15 jin_xi       well, im not so sure to know exact commands, but you switch to master (checkout), pull, switch back to branch and rebase. hope this helps for googleing
09:16 Calinou      I don't Google ;) but OK, thanks
09:17 jin_xi       you're a binger?
09:18 Megaf        Calinou: git pull http://minetest.git ?
09:19 Megaf        just test it on another repo
09:20 Calinou      thanks, works
09:20 Calinou      https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/347
09:20 Calinou      buffed food
09:20 Megaf        Calinou: the game on my server have just stopped in time
09:32 Calinou      https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/348
09:32 Calinou      snappy axes
10:25 Megaf        Calinou: we can already use swords for that
10:25 Calinou      they lose durability like crazy and don't help much
10:26 Megaf        hm
10:26 Megaf        maybe the game should have shears as a default tool
10:27 Megaf        to cut leaves and plants
10:27 Calinou      that clutters players' inventories :/
10:27 Calinou      should be either swords (almost no use in minetest_game base) or axes
10:27 Calinou      axes are cool, because you also cut wood with them
10:28 Calinou      in Carbone, swords dig snappy stuff even faster but lose durability
10:29 Megaf        Calinou: you should add Leprechaun Tools to Carbone
10:29 Calinou      what's that?
10:29 Calinou      anyway this should be discussed in PM or in #minetest
10:29 Megaf        https://github.com/Megaf/leprechaun_tools/blob/master/story.md
10:29 Calinou      another PR: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/349
11:19 puhfa        hey, this is just a random thought, but is it possible to use minetests noise generator for local texture generation or even in shaders?
11:19 puhfa        i mean, would be an easy way to make good-looking liquids
11:20 puhfa        http://glsl.herokuapp.com/e#19493.1 <- along these lines (not the looks but the idea)
11:29 Fritigern    Has anyone ever succesfully used mtdbconvert (the one that comes with mtsatellite) to convert from LevelDB to sqlite?
11:30 sfan5        why would you not want to use minetest itself to migrate databases
11:32 Fritigern    I followed mtsatellite's directions because i wanted the realtime map that it provides. Little did i know that it's crap. Anyway, the directions made me convert the DB to leveldb (interleaved) and according to the documentation, it SHOULD be possible to convert it back to sqlite.
11:32 Fritigern    But if you say that MT can migrate an existing DB, then please show me how
11:32 sfan5        minetestserver --world world --migrate sqlite3
11:33 Fritigern    You beat me to it ;-)
11:34 Fritigern    Ummm... are you sure that --world is correct? Because i start my server using --worldname (the world is also in a non-default folder)
11:39 sfan5        it is --world <path> afaik
11:39 Fritigern    Is it normal for the migration process to want to load mods?
11:39 sfan5        if you have any more questions do a man minetestserver
11:39 sfan5        yes
11:41 Fritigern    balaam@Sophie:~/Minetest/bin$ man minetestserver
11:41 Fritigern    No manual entry for minetestserver
11:44 sfan5        man only works when you have system-wide install
11:44 Fritigern    And you assumed that i have done that
11:45 Amaz         http://pastie.org/9750248 <-- Contents of man minetestserver
11:46 Fritigern    "Cannot migrate: new backend is same as the old one" Now what?
11:46 Fritigern    BTW, it is not the same. I am migrating from leveldb to sqlite3. Well, re-migrating
11:47 sfan5        Fritigern: do you have a map.sqlite?
11:48 sfan5        and do you still have the map.db?
11:48 Fritigern    Nope, i hav removed that after mograting to leveldb. I do have a map.db with a bunch of *.ldb files
11:48 Fritigern    So no on the map.sqlit, yes on the map.db
11:49 Fritigern    And typos be damned
11:49 sfan5        if you don't have a map.sqlite you didn't migrate to sqlite
11:49 Fritigern    I know
11:49 Fritigern    Tell that to minetestserver
11:49 sfan5        oh wait
11:49 sfan5        ignore what i said
11:50 sfan5        so.. mtdbconvert converted your map to leveldb and didn't change world.mt accordingly?
11:50 sfan5        if that is so, change 'backend = sqlite3' to 'backend = leveldb' and then use the migrate function
11:50 Fritigern    I'll look
11:51 Fritigern    You were right. Giving it another go
11:51 Fritigern    That can't be right.... "Successfully migrated 0 blocks"
11:54 Fritigern    Attempting a login, but i fear the worst
11:56 Zeno`        sfan5: 1883  (simple fix)
11:56 Zeno`        grr... #1833
11:56 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1833 -- Remove most exceptions from getNode() (and variants) by Zeno-
11:57 Zeno`        hmm
11:57 Zeno`        that's not it
11:57 Zeno`        #1883 lol
11:57 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1883 -- Fix MSVC compiling error (argc/argv not available to pass to init_gettext) by SmallJoker
12:13 mitrom       hi
12:17 sfan5        Zeno`: you know that you can merge small patches without approval? (http://dev.minetest.net/Git_Guidelines#Rule_1_in_practice)
12:18 Zeno`        Yeah, but I'm being cautious. Perhaps it would have been better to say "this is a small patch and I'll merge in 10 minutes"?
12:18 Zeno`        I'll do that in future
12:18 sfan5        > Perhaps it would have been better to say "this is a small patch and I'll merge in 10 minutes"?
12:18 sfan5        yes
12:18 Zeno`        #1833 is a small patch and I'll merge it in 10 minutes
12:18 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1833 -- Remove most exceptions from getNode() (and variants) by Zeno-
12:18 Zeno`        :D
12:19 sfan5        um
12:19 sfan5        didn't you mean #1883
12:19 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1883 -- Fix MSVC compiling error (argc/argv not available to pass to init_gettext) by SmallJoker
12:19 sfan5        because 1833 is not a small patch
12:20 Zeno`        I've done that twice now... why do I keep getting that 3 wrong :/
12:20 Zeno`        of course that's what I meant, thanks
12:33 CraigyDavi   Hmm why did this get added a while back? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/9a92747 imo it's better to keep it set as false because there will only be a few nodes which people want saves to be carved out of (dirt, stone, sand) and loads of blocks which people don't want to be carved (wood, crafted blocks, cobble).
12:34 CraigyDavi   It's better to leave the default as blocks which are not in the minority
16:20 Zeno`        hmmmm, #1855. Most (if not all) of these settings cannot be set/cached in the constructor of another object because they can, and do, change as the program executes
16:20 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1855 -- Mgv5 1 up 1 down overgeneration for biome surface continuity, thinner biomes. by paramat
16:25 PenguinDad   Zeno`: You seem to be be getting numbers wrong quite often today ;)
16:25 Zeno`        it's the 18 :(
16:26 Zeno`        I have no idea why
16:26 Zeno`        #1885
16:26 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1885 -- Create CoreSettings class for time-critical sections to use by Zeno-
16:26 Zeno`        *sigh*
16:32 * VanessaE   gives Zeno` a new keyboard and a new set of hands
16:32 Zeno`        it's just the 188 ... I dunno what it is
16:32 Zeno`        I have the same problem with my phone number
16:33 Zeno`        and my phone number doesn't even include 188
16:33 PenguinDad   lol
16:33 exio4        at least you know your phone number
16:33 exio4        I know mine starts with +54
16:34 shadowzone   Mine is (555)111-222
16:34 exio4        that doesn't look like a correct phone number
16:34 shadowzone   It is
16:34 VanessaE     just call JL5-2368
16:34 shadowzone   huh?
16:42 VanessaE     wait strike that, it's JL5-2020
16:42 Zeno`        checked your number against movie trivia?
16:42 * shadowzone grabs her phone
16:42 VanessaE     yep :)
16:43 Zeno`        VanessaE, You seem to be be getting numbers wrong quite often today ;)
16:43 VanessaE     so do you :)
16:43 shadowzone   Me too
16:43 shadowzone   I made 7 mistakes in code,chatting and talking
16:44 VanessaE     shadowzone: google it :)
16:44 hmmmm        Zeno`, if tracking variable changes is a requirement then perhaps you could do sort of what NodeResolver does, except in a smarter way
16:44 shadowzone   pff, thanks :)
16:44 Zeno`        hmmmm, it is for fast_move etc
16:45 hmmmm        perhaps there can be a new type of settings getters
16:45 Zeno`        I don't see what's wrong with this solution TBH
16:45 hmmmm        getBoolUpdates()
16:45 Zeno`        yeah I tried that yesterday and got shot down
16:45 Zeno`        this way is better
16:45 hmmmm        why, who?
16:47 hmmmm        volatile bool fast_move; g_settings->getBoolUpdates("fast_move", &fast_move);  while (big_loop_here_runs) {  .... do stuff with fast_move ... }
16:47 hmmmm        ofc this will only work for actual booleans rather than strings since you need to use atomic ops
16:47 Zeno`        but that's for only one setting and, yes, only for bools
16:48 hmmmm        so you can make getS32Updates() for S32s
16:48 Zeno`        but then I'd have to call the get*Updates() every frame/server-step
16:48 hmmmm        could you explain why
16:48 Zeno`        which kind of defeats the purpose
16:49 hmmmm        you call it only once
16:49 Zeno`        well, how will the updates be flagged when an update happens?
16:49 Zeno`        e.g. if the user presses 'j' (for example)
16:49 hmmmm        what's wrong with checking if the value changed each frame?
16:50 Zeno`        these updates happen rarely
16:50 hmmmm        checking a boolean is expensive?
16:50 Zeno`        so checking every frame is much more expensive than this solution
16:50 hmmmm        here hold on
16:50 Zeno`        it is when it's not necessary
16:51 Zeno`        And those checks would need to be scattered all through the source code
17:00 kaeza        sfan5, https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/346
17:00 hmmmm        i just don't see how the conventions are different from what you're currently doing
17:00 sfan5        kaeza: looks good
17:00 sfan5        incoming merge of minetest_game#346 in 5 minutes
17:01 kilbith      sfan5: also take a look in 327 & 338 please
17:06 hmmmm        Zeno`:  are you there?
17:06 hmmmm        do this:  http://fpaste.org/155147/80761141/
17:06 hmmmm        I don't see what's wrong with that^
17:07 Zeno`        getBoolUpdates() is still using std::map
17:08 hmmmm        but the difference is that you're calling it only once
17:08 Zeno`        which is too slow for something that happens every frame (for the client) or server step (for the server)
17:08 hmmmm        but the difference is that you're calling it only once
17:08 hmmmm        but the difference is that you're calling it only once
17:08 hmmmm        but the difference is that you're calling it only once
17:08 hmmmm        but the difference is that you're calling it only once
17:08 hmmmm        but the difference is that you're calling it only once
17:08 hmmmm        holy shit
17:08 Zeno`        once?
17:08 hmmmm        YES!
17:08 hmmmm        that's the whole point
17:09 Zeno`        and this works with floats and types other than bool?
17:10 hmmmm        sure
17:10 hmmmm        as long as it's under a machine word in size
17:10 hmmmm        for strings you could swap pointers
17:10 Zeno`        what about line 15?
17:10 hmmmm        what about it
17:11 hmmmm        you'd do that check even with your current patch
17:11 Zeno`        yes, but not every iteration
17:11 Zeno`        it might be done once every 20 minutes, or never
17:12 hmmmm        I don't get it
17:13 hmmmm        so let's say we have g_settings->getFastBool_fastMove()
17:13 Zeno`        In a normal game session most of the values won't change at all, so why check if they've changed every time through the loop?
17:13 hmmmm        how would you modify client thread to handle changes there
17:13 hmmmm        you don't strictly need to check
17:13 hmmmm        you just want to check for... whatever reason
17:13 Zeno`        so... when to check?
17:13 hmmmm        if you want to do something more on changes, you'd do that as you're setting the value
17:14 Zeno`        I don't get it
17:15 hmmmm        i don't really get why you would even need to check if the value changed in the client thread though
17:15 Zeno`        because the user might press 'j'
17:15 hmmmm        okay
17:15 Zeno`        or 'k'
17:15 Zeno`        or whatever :)
17:15 hmmmm        so you're saying you want SET to be fast as GET is
17:16 hmmmm        why though?  i see a lot of getting, and not very much setting at all
17:16 hmmmm        setting is not hot enough to optimize
17:16 Zeno`        no... I want GET to be fast
17:16 hmmmm        right
17:16 Zeno`        right now it's horribly slow
17:16 hmmmm        and here get is very fast
17:17 hmmmm        because you're not calling anything
17:17 hmmmm        only once in the very beginning
17:17 hmmmm        and then anytime after that the variable is automatically updated
17:18 Zeno`        This is just an alternative method at the end of the day
17:19 hmmmm        nobody else but you likes hardcoding settings in Settings
17:19 Zeno`        me?
17:19 Zeno`        I didn't write the original class
17:19 hmmmm        yeah...
17:20 Zeno`        if (current_fast_move != old_fast_move) is essentially the same as hardcoding something
17:20 hmmmm        first off I don't see why you'd even NEED that check
17:20 hmmmm        second off it's not.  one you're modifying Settings, and the other you're modifying the specific object's code
17:20 hmmmm        seperation of concerns
17:21 Zeno`        yeah, and you have to remember to add if (current_fast_move != old_fast_move) { } for every single instance where you want a 'cached' value
17:21 hmmmm        can you articulate why you need to do that
17:21 hmmmm        I just added it there because you wanted to check if it changed or not in the getter thread
17:22 Zeno`        so what is line 9 doing?
17:22 hmmmm        declaring the boolean variable that receives updates
17:22 Zeno`        It's adding a hardcoded object
17:22 Zeno`        same thing as my class does
17:23 hmmmm        your class modifies settings though
17:23 Zeno`        only when it's destroyed
17:23 Zeno`        and that's necessary because some of those settings need to be written to minetest.conf
17:24 Zeno`        e.g. min_viewing_range needs to be written
17:24 Zeno`        fast_move needs to be written
17:24 Zeno`        etc etc
17:25 hmmmm        you clearly modify Settings by adding a metric crapton of getter/setter methods
17:25 Zeno`        I have added no methods
17:26 hmmmm        what is getFastBool_enable_shaders
17:26 Zeno`        no idea... that's not in my patch
17:26 hmmmm        https://github.com/Zeno-/minetest/commit/915780ea26781caecb900237f020c7816c199bf2
17:26 hmmmm        ????
17:27 hmmmm        it says Zeno- authored a day ago
17:27 Zeno`        I'm not talking about that one. I closed that
17:27 hmmmm        then what one ....ARE... you talking about
17:27 Zeno`        #1885
17:27 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1885 -- Create CoreSettings class for time-critical sections to use by Zeno-
17:28 VanessaE     hey he got it right on the first try this time! :D
17:28 hmmmm        whaa
17:28 hmmmm        this strikes me as having a lot of code to do very little
17:29 Zeno`        You can't have had time to even look at it, lol
17:32 hmmmm        this is essentially what I just wrote does
17:32 hmmmm        except it has more... stuff
17:33 hmmmm        so what you did was make an infrastructure so that objects can register functions to get called back
17:33 hmmmm        and then you added it to both settings and this new CoreSettings
17:34 hmmmm        CoreSettings sets Settings on dtor
17:35 hmmmm        and update is called inside of the game step if needsUpdate()
17:35 Zeno`        correct
17:36 hmmmm        but but but you're checking something every loooop
17:36 Zeno`        ONE bool
17:36 Zeno`        not 30
17:36 hmmmm        you need to check 0 bools with my solution
17:37 hmmmm        what you did screams "overengineered" to me
17:37 Zeno`        but with your solution you need to ... sigh
17:37 Zeno`        nvm
17:37 hmmmm        need to what
17:38 Zeno`        it doesn't matter... I'm too tired right this moment to debate coherently
17:38 hmmmm        so if one of the settings changed, it sets off a flurry of g_settings->get *
17:38 Zeno`        yes
17:38 Zeno`        and they change how often?
17:39 hmmmm        not often, but I don't get why the server and the client threads need to be the ones to do the updating
17:40 hmmmm        so basically what you have is a large struct of booleans that can be simply set, or if it's set through the original Settings, you raise a flag that it needs updating
17:41 hmmmm        i assume you're doing this and not updating the entire thing inside of settings Set because you're afraid you'll need to add a lock in CoreSettings
17:56 Zeno`        hmmmm, any real reason why this solution is not good?
17:57 Zeno`        It's harder to make mistakes with this solution, as opposed to yours (IMO)
17:59 Zeno`        And without any evidence my gut feeling is that my solution is faster
17:59 Zeno`        And fast is what we need
18:17 hmmmm        how could your solution be faster if there's 0 work being done by the consumer?
18:17 hmmmm        looking at your updated version, it's much better than hard coding shit into Settings which was the main complaint
18:17 hmmmm        the current version looks like a lot of work to do very little though
18:18 hmmmm        i don't know, let somebody else decide
18:21 hmmmm        for what it's worth, zeno, I had an idea to speed up Settings a while ago by building a settings struct with the actual value type contained instead of strings, and the setting name was just a constant value containing the offset to the setting in the struct
18:21 hmmmm        i got shot down because people kept telling me it wasn't worth optimizing settings
18:23 cg72         105% of the dev effort should be set on optimizing the current code, making improvements to whats here now not adding more features(bugs) and ignoring the old code that can be greatly improved
18:34 Megaf        Sp there is hope, more people think like I do
18:34 cg72         lol Megaf who is sp? and who thinks like you
18:36 shadowzone   no one
18:36 Megaf        s/sp/so
18:47 PenguinDad   cg72: Where'd ya find the 5%
18:49 cg72         PenguinDad i coded an extra exponentially greater system just now, it bends space time to help productivity
18:57 hmmmm        how do you signify an error in creating an object in lua?
18:57 hmmmm        https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1819  this guy wants an error
18:58 hmmmm        script_error(L); would abort the script
18:58 hmmmm        abort the server i mean
18:58 hmmmm        and then if so, how am i supposed to handle errors everywhere else noise is created?
18:59 hmmmm        noise is used in a lot of places...
18:59 kahrl        I think he just wants a LuaError instead of a std::bad_alloc
19:03 hmmmm        trying to decide whether or not I should have the Noise ctor catch std::bad_allocs and set them to some default noiseparams that doesn't crash anything
19:03 hmmmm        and then if so, how would I report the error...
19:03 hmmmm        noise->areParamsGood() ?
19:04 kahrl        that sounds like a great way to create bugs that are impossible to find
19:05 hmmmm        - i want to avoid errorstream in noise.cpp
19:05 hmmmm        - i don't want to wrap every single noise declaration in a try catch statement
19:06 hmmmm        i want to be able to pass a LuaError along in the case of invalid parameters
19:06 hmmmm        and finally i want to recover "gracefully"
19:06 hmmmm        whatever that means
19:09 kahrl        if someone sets bad noiseparams in the C++ source, I think it's better to just get a std::bad_alloc than "graceful" default noise params
19:10 hmmmm        well bad noise params get set in the config file as well
19:10 kahrl        hmm yeah
19:10 hmmmm        and people modifying map_meta.txt
19:10 hmmmm        map_meta.txt should be a binary format so people don't screw around with it
19:10 hmmmm        ugh
19:12 hmmmm        so i just checked.  there aren't as many instances where noise objects are created as i thought.  just the mapgens and a couple of script things.  i could put an exception handler around createMapgen() i guess.. but how would I handle a mapgen startup failure?  all of the server startup failures just pass along exceptions
19:13 hmmmm        i think people are just upset that they see "std::bad_alloc".  if I catch that and throw InvalidNoiseParams or something instead, people won't get as upset
19:14 kahrl        yeah that sounds good
19:15 kahrl        no need to catch that exception anywhere imho
19:15 hmmmm        heh.. thing is that the noise params aren't necessarily invalid
19:15 kahrl        maybe check them in the catch(std::bad_alloc&)
19:16 hmmmm        in some cases there are noise params that have a very low spread factor or something else, resulting in lots of memory getting allocated.  so what might be invalid noise params for one machine might be not invalid for another
19:16 kahrl        throw ProcessingLimitException("Noise params require too much memory")?
19:17 hmmmm        i have to figure out a way to reliably determine whether or not noise params were specified wrong or just too demanding
19:17 hmmmm        like obviously if octaves < 0 that's invalid, right
19:18 hmmmm        then maybe if octaves > 500000 or something i'll call that invalid
19:18 hmmmm        but coming up with these upper bounds are kind of arbitrary
19:18 hmmmm        s/are/is/
19:20 Krock        octaves above 20 are already not needed
19:20 kahrl        tbh I don't see why people are upset about std::bad_alloc
19:21 hmmmm        if they don't understand what's going on when noise is being created it just looks like a random crash to them
19:21 kahrl        surely if someone calls inventory:set_size("list", 1000000000) they'd understand it?
19:25 hmmmm        you know I was also considering another way to handle this
19:26 hmmmm        actually no nevermind
19:36 hmmmm        humm
19:36 hmmmm        std::bad_alloc seems to abort the program before my catch can catch it
20:00 paramat      hmmmm, my experience is noise params will cause a crash when spread of the highest octave falls below 1, so that seems the most obvious check to do on noise parameters: spread / 2 ^ octaves < 1
20:00 hmmmm        this is going nowhere unless I can figure out a way to catch std::bad_alloc
20:00 hmmmm        it seems to work fine on Linux though
20:04 paramat      i wouldn't worry too much about fixing this, i need to write an explanation of noise params and that will guide people to set sane params
20:09 kahrl        odd, I would have expected it maybe the other way around
20:09 kahrl        I expected that linux would return some memory but when you tried using it, the OOM killer would lynch the process
20:11 paramat      hmmmm, when you have time please let me know your opinions on my plans for biomes: http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2014-11-29#i_4042129
20:52 hmmmm        hmmm
20:52 hmmmm        paramat:  i like node_stone, but as for the noise param tweaking i'm not so sure..
20:52 hmmmm        the concept was to have one centralized biome system
20:53 hmmmm        just to be clear, it's the same set of noises representing the same thing, just different for each mapgen
20:53 hmmmm        but you want them to go into the mapgen special parameters
20:55 hmmmm        when you say "tune biome spreads to the scale of each mapgen", do you mean the overall size of the mapgen in question?
20:59 paramat      well i mean some future mapgens may be on such a large scale that standard size biomes would be too small
21:00 paramat      also of course spread needs to be tuned according to the number of biomes used
21:01 hmmmm        what if each biome defined a "size factor" that gets used for things like this and maybe the size/depth/etc of caves
21:01 hmmmm        would that work?
21:01 paramat      i assume heat/humidity noises cannot currently be adjusted by the player, and are the same for each mapgen?
21:01 paramat      um maybe i'll think on it
21:02 hmmmm        the second thing I don't want to manually adjust the spread, i think the spread should be adjusted by the number of biomes currently active like you were mentioning before
21:02 hmmmm        they can't be adjusted by the player because i just never got around to it
21:02 paramat      okay =)
21:02 hmmmm        but the original intent was to have a single setting for biome heat and humidity
21:06 paramat      "but you want them to go into the mapgen special parameters" yes
21:07 hmmmm        hrmm
21:07 hmmmm        yeah that could work out i guess
21:08 paramat      each mapgen would have it's own heat and humidity noises, but i feel it's essential to scale the biome size to the scale of the mapgen. not so important now but for example watershed looks ridiculous with biomes smaller than 1kn
21:08 paramat      "just to be clear, it's the same set of noises representing the same thing, just different for each mapgen" yes thats what i suggest
21:13 paramat      i guess what i want could be done just by making the central heat/humid noises user adjustable as you were planning, i'm okay with that
21:14 paramat      how about point "use 3 octaves 0.5 persistence for heat/humidity to reduce the amount of tiny biomes and biome stripes" players have complained about tiny biomes next to huge biomes in mgv7, and i get that myself too
21:15 paramat      *how about point 2
21:15 hmmmm        what's it at right now?
21:15 hmmmm        thing is we're walking a fine line between noise quality and continuity
21:15 hmmmm        trying to get an interesting biome shape
21:16 paramat      um now its 3 0.55 humid 3 0.7 heat
21:16 paramat      i think
21:17 paramat      yes the biome shapes are more interesting with high persist, but smaller, so i agree it's a balance
21:18 hmmmm        see I'm not really too picky on what the biome default noise parameters are
21:18 hmmmm        the ones that i have there now are quite arbitrary
21:19 hmmmm        biomes are something i was having trouble on and so i quit working on them
21:20 paramat      one centralised set of heat/humidity noises is a nice idea theoretically but i feel ideally each mapgen deserves it's own suitably tuned heat/humidity noises
21:20 hmmmm        an early problem with biomes were the "bubbles" that occur inside of a biome - my initial idea was to do a fast flood fill inside the current biome map with whatever the dominant biome was, but you can see the issue with that strategy
21:21 paramat      small bubbles of other biomoes appearing?
21:21 hmmmm        yeah
21:22 paramat      thats due to the high persistence
21:22 hmmmm        these are all problems that could be solved if maps were pre-generated all at once
21:25 paramat      BTW with default biomes defined for mgv5/v7, how do players disable these default biomes to define their own?
21:26 hmmmm        you mean the rock/water one?
21:32 paramat      i mean, i'm working on the default biomes for mgv5/v7 now, adding the registrations to default/mapgen.lua, but wondering what players do if they want to define their own biomes, how do they 'remove' the default biome definitions
21:32 hmmmm        you don't
21:33 hmmmm        well since it's only a problem if there's none, I guess the first biome could replace the default one instead
21:33 hmmmm        that entire thing is going to get an overhaul soon
21:35 paramat      eh? so what's the point of a biome API if players can't replace the default biomes
21:36 paramat      lol
21:36 hmmmm        after registration of ANY biome, the default biome can never be selected
21:36 paramat      ah
21:36 hmmmm        the default biome is only there so minetest doesn't crash if no biomes were registered
21:37 paramat      so default biomes are discarded as soon as players define new ones, okay
21:39 paramat      BTW worldedit does actually have a way to set probabilities by punching, so i will soon make the new tree schems. i'm aiming to have default biomes for mgv5/v7 ready for 0.4.11, but mgv5 will not be stable until the release after at the earliest
21:41 paramat      people are talking of a feature freeze, 1 week from now seems suitable, thought i'd mention it since you usually organise this
21:41 hmmmm        yeah
21:41 hmmmm        sounds good I guess
21:42 hmmmm        I haven't been as involved as i should be lately
21:45 hmmmm        alright
21:46 hmmmm        i'll just commit my bad_alloc patch as-is.. I cannot test this because it's been confirmed that FreeBSD 9.1 (what I use) has this specific bug
21:47 paramat      biome bubbles are not a problem as long as there aren't too many, they're cute, reducing persistence will reduce how many there are, i'll make a pull for 3 oct 0.5 persist and for node stone
21:48 paramat      cool, the noise param crash happens very rarely to players
21:48 paramat      i only know of 3 cases
22:54 kahrl        RealBadAngel: any ideas about #1860?
22:54 ShadowBot    https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1860 -- Wield item is always fully bright
22:57 celeron55    >CoreSettings
22:57 celeron55    i'm not going to add any settings to minetest anymore if i need to write the new setting to 10 places
22:57 celeron55    add a code generator or something, not this crap
22:59 kahrl        celeron55: I agree
23:02 celeron55    (a code generator is bad too, but less bad; i don't know if such can be used in an acceptable way either though)
23:02 hmmmm        any comments on my version?
23:02 celeron55    (i *think* integrating code generators is possible to cmake if they are written in C++, which might make them cross-platform enough)
23:03 celeron55    where is your version? i can't find it
23:04 hmmmm        [12:06 PM] <hmmmm> do this:  http://fpaste.org/155147/80761141/
23:07 celeron55    that's not too bad otherwise, but storing the local boolean persistently can be a pain in the ass sometimes
23:07 celeron55    (unless just making it global)
23:08 hmmmm        it's supposed to be a member of the object
23:09 hmmmm        so this is like the way i currently cache settings in my own... abominations^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcreations, except this auto-updates the settings
23:09 celeron55    not everything is an object
23:09 celeron55    this is not Java
23:10 kahrl        volatile is not meant for synchronization
23:10 hmmmm        of course not
23:10 hmmmm        there's no synchronization needed here, except perhaps the entire setBool should be locked rather than just the set operation
23:11 hmmmm        if you don't put volatile, the compiler might cache fast_move_update on the stack and it'd never get updated
23:11 celeron55    if i were making this and really wanted this kind of optimization, i would make a very simple global struct which would contain copies of the settings for quick access and then go from there somehow; not sure how exactly as clearly it needs some kind of synchronization
23:11 hmmmm        or just not fetch it from memory in between loops
23:12 celeron55    (of course if it's just boolean settings, then hmmmm's approach probably works in practice for syncing)
23:12 kahrl        I don't like adding boilerplate to every place that needs to access some setting in a fast way
23:12 hmmmm        it would work in practice for any data types less than or equal to the size of a machine word
23:13 kahrl        though I suppose that could be encapsulated in some helper class
23:13 celeron55    (i mean, the volatile part of it; the storage of the value is still a problem9
23:13 celeron55    )*
23:15 celeron55    but really when doing introspection-like stuff in C++, i have noticed that externally implemented code generation really helps
23:16 hmmmm        i really hate generated code
23:16 celeron55    it adds a certain amount of complexity, but the complexity stops there and you can generate very optimal things with nice interfaces
23:16 celeron55    and fast compile times because you need less template or class magic
23:17 celeron55    the main problem becomes finding a good way to do the generation without hindering portability or robustness of the build system
23:19 hmmmm        what if we just add python as a dependency for building!
23:19 celeron55    lol
23:19 celeron55    windows=dead
23:19 celeron55    anyway, i just want people to consider this too; i'm not implementing it so i don't get to choose anything
23:20 kahrl        just ship a python implementation in PowerShell :P
23:24 kahrl        how about something like this? https://gist.github.com/kahrl/c61a3ef46eae4770f165
23:28 celeron55    i don't understand where any part of this is supposed to be used
23:29 kahrl        the first example is defaultsettings.cpp and the second is coresettings.h
23:30 celeron55    hmm wait, now i do
23:30 kahrl        the point is to re-include it every time something needs to be done for all core settings
23:31 celeron55    this could be very handy
23:32 celeron55    it's basically a macro foreach
23:32 kahrl        the only problem I see is that cpp is quite limited so it might be hard to do certain things
23:32 kahrl        e.g. do something different depending on the type of the setting
23:33 celeron55    well that requires templates and it can get a bit ugly
23:35 celeron55    but i don't think it's going to be a big issue in this case
23:35 celeron55    do you?
23:35 kahrl        not really
23:35 kahrl        I guess we'll find out if we try it
23:36 celeron55    i would very likely approve a solution based on this
23:37 hmmmm        templates make C++ turing complete
23:37 hmmmm        on compile time
23:38 celeron55    i think all languages should be turing complete at compile time; it gives a lot of flexibility; in C++ it's implement by pretty much a brainfuck derivative
23:38 celeron55    implemented*
23:39 hmmmm        i think i like kahrl's version the best
23:39 hmmmm        i really like how it's simple
23:51 paramat      okay hmmmm thinking on it, it's fine by me to keep one set of heat/humidity noises in mg_biome.cpp, as long as they become settable through .conf, i may well attempt to code that myself and perhaps also the auto scaling of spreads from number of biomes
23:52 paramat      then once they're settable i can change the persistence without breaking people's mgv7 worlds
23:56 paramat      i made the mistake of complex future-proof coding instead of // Just do something simple for now