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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-10-11

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Time Nick Message
00:02 kaeza I would like to be able to create yet another FPS based off minetest (a la AOS/OpenSpades), so crouching would be useful for e.g. taking cover from enemy fire
00:04 paramat ah i see
00:04 pitriss kaeza: it sounds good if you bind it to some new key..:)
00:05 kaeza pitriss, currently, it adds a new "crouching" key (default is LCTRL), which BTW can also be used by mods in the same way `sneak` is used now
00:05 proller and walking to 1x1 holes
00:06 pitriss ahh ok.., then it sounds good.:)
00:11 paramat on the subject of 1x1 holes, i discovered if you attach a player to a vehicle, and reduce the visual scale of the vehicle, it makes the player smaller too, so you can drive through 1x1 passages
00:12 kaeza I recall that bug being reported, but didn't know it also affected the collision box
00:13 kaeza https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/419
00:15 paramat lol that image mauvebic posted
00:19 paramat hmmmm, celeron seems happy for someone else to finish the job of bringing mgv5 back, i might attempt this. it needs ores, biomes and trees added. so what biomes would you like to see in mgv5? i'm thinking mgv6 biomes plus a snow biome with snowy pinetrees. i would also like splizard's needles node, and my pinetree and pinewood nodes added to MTgame, to complete the default snow biome nodes. your opinions?
00:21 proller paramat, you need port all your mapgent to core ;)
00:23 paramat well i'm now getting my head around core mapgen code, you were right (!) c++ is not much more difficult than lua
00:23 proller you got it!
00:24 proller next point: its 100x faster
00:25 paramat yes, lua mapgen is still too slow for some servers, okay for singleplayer though
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00:25 proller if you cant observe world - its not ok
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01:08 paramat wow mgv5 is much better than mgv6, especially the caves. it also uses eased 3D noise
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02:46 Sokomine paramat: i'm not sure about that. some servers seem to work ok with plantlife in its fullness, and that's *slow* due to the huge amount of plants it spawns and the requirements thes plants have for spawning
02:46 Sokomine i mean - if even that works ok, then most servers are probably on the faster side
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05:44 RealBadAngel paramat, you could try those amplified biomes from mc
05:45 RealBadAngel they look pretty neat
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06:42 hmmmm https://www.shadertoy.com/view/Ms2SD1
06:42 hmmmm hue hue hue
06:42 hmmmm shader perlin noise
06:43 hmmmm paramat, going forward I'd like all new mapgens to use the biome infrastructure
06:43 hmmmm biomes are supposed to be a thing that, going forward, mapgens all use
06:43 hmmmm like they'd all share that piece of code
06:44 RealBadAngel btw, if lua mapgens are slow, core are faster, why not make mapgens DLLs ?
06:44 hmmmm because that's a windows-specific solution
06:44 hmmmm in any case, zeno` wants that
06:45 RealBadAngel i just used windows name
06:45 RealBadAngel this way we could have fast mapgens and dont have to maintain them in mainstream
06:47 hmmmm i think it would be better overall if lua mapgens could generate without an envlock
06:48 Hunterz How many dedicated servers are hosted on windows?
06:48 RealBadAngel http://luajit.org/ext_ffi.html
06:48 Hunterz I think many server owners use linux for ther dedicated servers.
06:49 RealBadAngel this could be the way to do that
06:49 Zeno` ?
06:49 Zeno` What do I want?
06:49 RealBadAngel drop our bundled lua, embeed stable luajit and start to use its features
06:50 Zeno` Oh C mapgens? Yeah I already have those
06:50 Zeno` Not ever (likely) to push the code though because nobody seems interested
06:51 RealBadAngel Zeno`, i meant mapgen libs, which user can download and use with game
06:51 RealBadAngel this way they can be way faster and flexible
06:52 Zeno` RealBadAngel, I use on the server what I will "extensions"; the are .so files that are a hybrid of Lua and C
06:52 Zeno` So, yes, a little bit different probably
06:52 RealBadAngel technic computer is using libs since a long time already
06:53 RealBadAngel libs are compiled for both linux and winows
06:54 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest-technic/techn​ic_game_2/tree/master/mods/forth_computer
06:54 Zeno` I started off just extending Lua, but that was not nice. My current solution is a "hack"; If I was to push the code I'd really want to clean it up first
06:55 Zeno` yeah that's basically one half of my hack
06:56 Zeno` this is why my server version isn't up-to-date. I need to make the hack "nice"
06:56 Zeno` one day
06:57 Zeno` I could get rid of the whole hacky part altogether if there was a fast way to populate the Lua stack with node ids (and vice versa)
06:58 Zeno` But they're not contiguous in memory, so... *shrug*
06:58 Zeno` I did mean to add something (a light C pointer) but got sidetracked
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07:16 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/f48f6869303ab331600efaf9ec5796c238180106
07:16 RealBadAngel this has to be changed
07:16 RealBadAngel it breaks old clients
07:17 RealBadAngel adding 3rd optional drawtype for two already existing ones is just wrong
07:19 RealBadAngel setting for connected glass shall be read just in content_mapblock.cpp
07:19 RealBadAngel without adding new drawtype for that
07:22 RealBadAngel after case NDT_GLASSLIKE: check the setting and move to case NDT_GLASSLIKE_FRAMED:
07:25 RealBadAngel atm thx to adding that new drawtype minetest_game is not useable with stable clients, only current dev
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11:08 jin_xi here is an idea: why not add a modifier to textures so dynamic ones can be deleted instead of leaked? like [dynamic:<name> , so whenever a dynamic texture with a name is created dynamic ones with the same name would be deleted. name could be modname+position hash or so
11:21 Zeno` because it looks like a hack?
11:21 Zeno` A hack that doesn't address the real problem
11:24 Zeno` And I don't mean hack in the good sense of the word
11:24 Zeno` What makes a texture "dynamic"?
11:25 Zeno` And, why should a mod care what is dynamic and what is not (whatever dynamic means)?
11:25 jin_xi lol, do you know what the problem is?
11:26 Zeno` yeah... a leak
11:27 Zeno` Do you?
11:27 jin_xi ok, let me spell it out for you a bit: some mods need to change the appearance of a thing, by changing textures
11:27 jin_xi screens and such
11:28 jin_xi currently every frame of such screen is leaked
11:29 sfan5 no
11:29 sfan5 it's not leaked
11:29 sfan5 just saved for later usage
11:29 jin_xi it will probably not be used again and its a problem
11:30 jin_xi also it currently can not be deleted at all
11:31 Zeno` but adding a modifier?
11:31 Zeno` That's not a solution :/
11:31 jin_xi would allow to delete textures if a mod wants to not keep them
11:32 Zeno` When does the lifetime of the texture expire?
11:32 jin_xi never
11:32 Zeno` never? So it will never be released?
11:32 Zeno` What's the point then?
11:33 jin_xi the point is to allow use of mods that use texture combining for dynamic content without the need for quitting your client so often
11:34 Zeno` How will minetest know when to release the memory for the texture?
11:34 sfan5 it won't
11:34 sfan5 minetest will cache every texture
11:35 Zeno` Yes, but how will adding a modifier clarify that situation?
11:35 jin_xi well, textures are created by name. by adding a name to a dynamic texture only one (current) could be kept
11:38 Zeno` so why the need for a modifier?
11:38 celeron55 the way to solve that is to add reference counting to every usage of textures in the client
11:39 celeron55 which is a rather big task but possibly can be done assuming there are no irrlicht interfaces that actively fight against doing that
11:41 jin_xi but has this to be done for all textures really? updating ones are a very specific thing. is the texture caching a problem somewhere else?
11:42 jin_xi because ideally i still think there should be a drawtype which pastes a texture over a node, to allow for sings and such without extra entities
11:43 gravgun in which way would it "pastes a texture over a node" ?
11:44 jin_xi idk ;) but it seems silly to need an extra entity per sign just for holding a textures. in some cases it might be needed for interaction
11:49 gravgun I already have thought about dynamic/custom(generated) textures, but what I can propose would be a big change in the Lua API and how we handle "textures" from there
11:49 gravgun (cf http://irc.minetest.ru/minet​est-dev/2014-10-03#i_3961920 )
11:49 gravgun BTW sfan5, still working on the VM thing
11:50 jin_xi with pasting over i mean something similar to what firelike does
11:54 Zeno` sfan5, why remove the bug fix tag for a fix that prevents uninitialised variables (objects) being used?
11:55 sfan5 did I remove that tag?
11:55 Zeno` looks like it
11:55 sfan5 oops
11:55 sfan5 I deleted that label because I didn't see it still has a bug
11:56 sfan5 we don't even need a "bug" label
11:56 sfan5 a "bug" label on a pull request automatically means it's a bug fix
11:58 Zeno` yeah true
11:59 Zeno` it's kind of a confusing tag if it's a PR :(
11:59 Zeno` wait, the fix it now a bug?
11:59 Zeno` this is confusing lol
12:00 Zeno` sfan5 removed the Bug fix label 18 hours ago;    sfan5 added the bug label 4 minutes ago       maybe I just need sleep
12:00 Zeno` o/
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12:49 Krock any comments to 1731 ?
12:50 Zeno` none further than I made last night
12:51 Krock yes, I'm waiting for dev comments and (maybe) a +1
12:51 Zeno` I am a dec
12:51 Zeno` dev
12:52 Krock I mean those with merge privileges
12:52 Zeno` pfft :p
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13:54 OldCoder Any reason to use mapgen 7 vs 6 ?
13:55 sfan5 no
13:55 sfan5 there are some mapgens that use v7
13:55 sfan5 but those mods will enable it by themselves anyway
14:11 Dragonop OldCoder, Ethereal mod uses v7, and makes a lot of biomes
14:12 OldCoder shadowzone says buggy but Krock disagrees
14:12 Dragonop is't buggy
14:12 OldCoder kk
14:12 Dragonop *isn't
14:13 Dragonop It's a mapgen that can generate biomes
14:13 OldCoder kk
14:13 Dragonop but you have to mod it
14:13 OldCoder Go on
14:13 Dragonop Ethereal adds a lot of biomes
14:14 Dragonop try it
14:14 OldCoder Wait
14:14 OldCoder So if I don't have a special mod is it useful?
14:14 Dragonop You can use it to build stuff, but it's only stone
14:14 OldCoder Got it
14:14 OldCoder So if I use it
14:15 OldCoder without knowing what to do with special mods, bad
14:15 Dragonop yep
14:15 OldCoder kk
14:16 Dragonop Maybe for a creative server, but there are mods that creates a flat world
14:16 OldCoder kk
14:17 sfan5 OldCoder: v7 is not buggy but just not finished
14:17 OldCoder kkty
14:20 Zeno` It'd be hard for it to be buggy.... /me hides
14:20 OldCoder kk
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14:27 Zeno` stuff like float height_mod = (float)(y + 17) / 2.5;  is a bit of a worry though
14:29 Zeno` suggests that the programmer had NFI about implicit casts and promotion
14:31 celeron55 or maybe 2.5 was 2 previously and it was needed then
14:31 celeron55 there's nothing wrong explicitly casting stuff in places like that if you ask me
14:32 Zeno` there is
14:32 Zeno` it's as bad as doing  a = (b * c) * d;
14:32 Zeno` it calls into doubt the rest of the code
14:33 Zeno` anyway 2.5 is not float
14:34 OldCoder
14:36 Dragonop
14:39 celeron55 also, yes, probably most of minetest's contributors do not have a fucking idea about implicit casts and promotion
14:40 celeron55 or at least some of them
14:40 OldCoder Well, the code will stabilize over time
14:40 OldCoder Simply curious about the current state for practical reasons
14:52 gravgun celeron55, wiki's "code style guidelines" says "Use STL", does that mean I should avoid implementing custom conainers?
14:53 celeron55 gravgun: unless actually needed, yes; it mostly refers to the fact that minetest originally used irrlicht's containers instead of STL
14:53 celeron55 (which could be mentioned in there...)
14:56 gravgun I ask cuz' I implemented a custom container that holds many structs of the same type, on top of C realloc'd arrays, because STL is sometimes darn slow and this is somehow performance-critical code (a VM aimed at generating vertices info for completely custom renderers)
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15:45 celeron55 well sounds like std::vector would work just fine
15:46 celeron55 std::vector (and others) can be used without copying stuff by just using resize() and getting a reference to the new element, if that's what you were looking for
15:46 celeron55 (altough, maybe it doesn't get rid of all of it)
15:49 gravgun Yes, although std::vector is potentially slower at moving things given it's designed for C++ OOP, and the struct I use was made a POD struct specially to avoid that
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17:42 paramat nore, please can my boats mod pull be merged? https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/328 tested and fine tuned for hours in my 'canyon' river mod
17:55 paramat nore, sfan5, MTgame's new grass (of dirt-with-grass) texture is really bad, dark and miserable, this one is much better as an improved-tiling version of what we had before https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/181
17:56 paramat the new dirt texture is bad too =)
18:05 Calinou >bad
18:05 Calinou the new dirt texture we have is quite good
18:05 Calinou the grass is not supposed to be super bright
18:05 Calinou this was the problem of Minetest
18:05 Calinou the new one has a good (not perfect) colour
18:06 Calinou it would need a recolour to fit anyway
18:06 Calinou grass is supposed to be quite smooth
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18:20 paramat grass is the most visible texture of MTgame, and sets the mood, it used to be bright, fresh, with contrast and crisp detail, as if under a sunny sky. the new one is depressing, looks like grass under a dark sky
18:21 kilbith well, the new one is a good balance between bright /dark
18:22 paramat rich fertile dirt is dark brown, almost black, the new dirt is also depressingly lacking in contrast, and is a horrid light brown
18:22 paramat *rah!*
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18:52 Calinou is the dirt of Minetest always wet though?
18:52 paramat well ... good point
18:53 VanessaE actually it is somewhat moist, otherwise the grass would be brown.
18:53 VanessaE in theory anyway
19:00 paramat there were actually complaints (quite rightly) about the new textures looking too dark and 'medieval' before they were merged. i wasn't too keen on the previous dirt (too light brown) but at least it had some contrast and detail
19:00 VanessaE I don't have too much opinion on the textures one way or another.  it's too subjective
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19:03 Calinou the new cobble is good actually
19:04 Calinou you can spam it without penalty ;) unlike all the other old ones
19:04 paramat yes i love the new cobble
19:05 paramat i'm an artist and designer and have strong reactions to visual stuff ... subjectivity goes out the window =)
19:08 Calinou everyone can callthemselves an artist, even programmers
19:08 Calinou same goes for designers
19:08 kilbith Calinou: the new cobble is too dark relative to the stone texture
19:09 kilbith you can't have darker broken stone if you break the 'raw' stone
19:09 kilbith (irl)
19:09 Calinou https://cdn.mediacru.sh/9pt71Ybwkp4o.png
19:09 Calinou looks fair to me
19:10 Calinou almost the same
19:10 kilbith you're not in exterior
19:10 kilbith compare them under the sunlight
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20:52 Krock kilbith, I agree (2 hours later)
20:53 kilbith the current grass is perfect
20:53 kilbith same for the dirt
20:54 kilbith sorry, you talked about the cobbles
20:54 Krock Calinou, the dirt is dry by default (you can see that when using a hoe on dirt)
20:55 PenguinDad kilbith: the current cobble looks really nice imo http://a.pomf.se/fyelaa.png
20:56 Krock still, too dark.
20:56 kilbith yes, unappropriatly dark
20:57 Krock well, I prefer Cisoun's dirt and dirt_side textures
20:57 PenguinDad Where is this cobble too dark? o_O
20:57 kilbith I vomit when I see the Cisoun's dirt/grass
20:58 kilbith hm, wait
20:58 kilbith confused
20:58 kilbith Cisoun textures = current ones ?
20:58 Krock kilbith, you've got the wrong textures in your mind
20:58 kilbith ^
20:58 Krock https://github.com/SmallJoker/base_game/blob/​master/mods/default/textures/default_dirt.png
20:59 Krock https://github.com/SmallJoker/base_game/blob/mas​ter/mods/default/textures/default_grass_side.png
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22:04 paramat 'hmmmm: going forward I'd like all new mapgens to use the biome infrastructure'. i assume you mean the biome API of mgv7 (which you want to change), okay that's a relief, less work choosing and creating biomes myself
22:18 paramat one thing lacking in register decoration is the way it fixes decoration density, i have found that forests only look good if noise is used to vary the density. this means my lua mapgens will always look just that little bit better than core mapgens =)
22:19 paramat though i understand the API is meant to be simple to use, and noise variable density is probably to complex for it
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