Time Nick Message 03:02 RealBadAngel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWOW_kihBIM&feature=youtu.be 03:36 VanessaE hmmmm: *poke* 03:36 VanessaE (not related to the above) 03:37 hmmmm Don't ask to ask, just ask 03:37 VanessaE I "asked" hours ago. 03:37 hmmmm oh 03:37 VanessaE your vmanip changes caused major breakage. 03:37 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1607 03:38 RealBadAngel hmmmm, do you like the highlighting? 03:38 hmmmm yup, great highlighting 03:38 VanessaE hmmmm: I presumed you were afk, so I figured I would just prod you later about this. 03:38 hmmmm that guy... 03:39 VanessaE is Krock. 03:39 hmmmm i was trying to work with him the other day to track down exactly what commit caused it 03:39 RealBadAngel some1 even screamed to take off your 3 pulls 03:39 VanessaE yeah I know. 03:39 hmmmm and he tried a certain one and i think he said "yep it works now" 03:39 VanessaE I noticed that he just...disappeated. 03:39 RealBadAngel who peer-reviewed and approved f3eefeb7948b8b8d1a98f2f89baa39abc807f72d, 9e4e7072da8f565eef37da7558053a436b9cbba3 and 3fa4f782d90dac0d800251a9ab0f0afb9d32560c <--- Can these commits be taken out of master? 03:39 hmmmm so I presumed that it was broken and I fixed it with another one 03:39 VanessaE however, zeno went on to confirm it; he and I chatted in private to some length 03:39 hmmmm ... 03:40 hmmmm peer reviewed... ALL of them were reviewed by multiple people and it works fine for us 03:40 hmmmm it doesn't work fine for select other people 03:41 RealBadAngel it seems like it breaks some custom mapgens for some reason 03:41 VanessaE I can't speak for the "peer reviewed" part, I had assumed the same 03:41 hmmmm in fact, I think it was Krock's custom mapgen mod, I downloaded and tried it myself 03:41 hmmmm worked fine 03:42 hmmmm I assumed the problem was that he just wasn't running the current upstream 03:42 VanessaE how does that account for zeno's comment though? 03:42 hmmmm on the issue? 03:42 VanessaE yes 03:42 hmmmm i really have no idea. 03:43 RealBadAngel http://pastebin.com/b703YKrC 03:43 hmmmm now, in the issue tracker, krock says that the issue "happened between 3fa4f78 and f3eefeb" 03:43 hmmmm am i interpreting this right? 03:43 hmmmm things work fine on 3fa4f78 03:43 hmmmm and then on 9e4e707, things break? 03:44 hmmmm as in, "Update Mapgen VoxelManipulator on buffer invalidation" changes code that breaks things? 03:44 VanessaE I'm not sure, given that there was only one commit between the two 03:44 hmmmm which specific commit is it that broke things for these people 03:44 VanessaE his comment is somewhat unclear. 03:44 hmmmm can they quit being vague 03:45 hmmmm vanessae: are you aware of current HEAD of upstream breaking lua mapgens right now? 03:45 hmmmm or just that some people have had this issue 03:45 VanessaE what I take from it is that it's just plain broken as described by his "after" images 03:46 VanessaE hmmmm: I only run one server that uses a lua mapgen (nore's/sfan5's MG). let' me go see how that behaves now. the server is new enough. 03:46 hmmmm what does "new enough" mean 03:46 hmmmm what commit is it at 03:46 VanessaE I'm at 9e4e7072da8f565eef37da7558053a436b9cbba3 03:46 hmmmm i'm sorry guys, i just fail to see how any of my recent commits could have such an effect 03:46 hmmmm unless you have some rogue mod that screws shit up 03:47 VanessaE gimme a moment. 03:47 RealBadAngel vanessae: are you aware of current HEAD of upstream breaking lua mapgens right now? 03:47 RealBadAngel does it breaks them? 03:48 hmmmm works on my machine (tm) 03:48 VanessaE ok, if MG mod is vmanip based, it works fine with 9e4e707 03:48 hmmmm see, this is really hard because it works for me 03:48 hmmmm krock and zeno are apparently the only ones this doesn't work for 03:49 hmmmm right 03:49 hmmmm vanessae: try f3eefeb now 03:49 VanessaE (I teleported to a location in the world that, according to my overview map, has not yet been generated) 03:49 hmmmm err 03:49 hmmmm you don't need to 03:49 hmmmm that's not your responsibility 03:50 VanessaE yep, seems fine, and mg is definitely vm based 03:51 VanessaE grep -r vm /home/minetest/mods/mg|wc 03:51 VanessaE 38 184 2987 03:51 hmmmm i have a feeling those guys aren't using HEAD 03:51 VanessaE Zeno I'm pretty sure was, but HIS issue might be attributed to code faults on his end. 03:52 VanessaE Krock, on the other hand, almost certainly fucked up in his testing. 03:52 VanessaE HOWEVER, 03:52 VanessaE there IS some kind of obscure crashing happening for some folks, also: 03:52 hmmmm issue? 03:53 VanessaE I don't think there's an issue for it yet, lemme get the crash dump 03:53 VanessaE sec 03:53 VanessaE http://pastebin.com/pWZXXkcT 03:54 VanessaE code: http://pastebin.com/4d0vm8zS 03:54 hmmmm is this consistent? 03:55 VanessaE it's a production server, I'm not sure if it's happened again since 03:55 VanessaE as you can see from the bit of code he pasted to me, there's just not that much that can go wrong there 03:55 hmmmm unhandled exception 03:55 VanessaE wait, he DID reproduce it 03:55 hmmmm oh goodie 03:55 VanessaE Sep 05 2014 21:38:38 yeah 03:55 VanessaE Sep 05 2014 21:38:45 these crashes started after the updates 03:55 VanessaE Sep 05 2014 21:41:56 other great news 03:56 hmmmm did he get a real stack backtrace? 03:56 hmmmm not just the lua side 03:56 VanessaE I'll ask when I catch him next 03:56 hmmmm man 03:56 hmmmm I just cannot see how this code can screw up 03:56 hmmmm it's tried and trusted 03:56 VanessaE you've said that before ;) 03:56 VanessaE as have I :) 03:57 hmmmm in particular I don't see anything that could throw an exception in get_data() 03:57 VanessaE nothing in the Lua code he pasted could do it, could it? 03:57 hmmmm no 03:58 hmmmm the only possibility i see for get_data() throwing an exception is if it was an std::bad_alloc (out-of-memory conditions) 03:59 VanessaE I've seen this before. 03:59 hmmmm except not even that because it calls Lua, and Lua uses C (malloc/free) and therefore wouldn't cause a C++ style memory allocation exception 03:59 VanessaE just the other day the OOM killer nailed one of my servers. 03:59 VanessaE memory corruption is the theory right now. that same mem corruption that seems to migrate around the MT codebase. 04:00 hmmmm i'm not even going to bother speculating 04:00 hmmmm i have no clues 04:00 VanessaE the other day it was ticking along normally, couple guys were digging stone, nothing out of the ordinary, then BAM, it tried to allocate tens of gigs all at once and the OOM killer said "um, no." 04:00 hmmmm hrmmmmmm 04:01 hmmmm I wonder if on your machine you'd get OOM killer to end the process before an std::bad_alloc 04:01 VanessaE I posted what little I had of that crash, here, when it happened. no response. 04:01 hmmmm yaeh I saw that 04:01 hmmmm couldn't get any information from the log 04:02 VanessaE yeah, I didn't expect it would be too useful 04:02 VanessaE no opportunity to get a proper bt 04:02 hmmmm see 04:02 hmmmm OOM killer is triggered when the kernel's VM allocator can't find any free page frames 04:02 hmmmm std::bad_alloc is thrown when sbrk() fails 04:03 hmmmm i honestly don't know which would be triggered first 04:03 hmmmm vanessae, can you try it though? 04:04 hmmmm i mean make a test program that just exhausts system memory quickly 04:06 VanessaE not sure how I'd do that. 04:06 hmmmm ...... 04:06 VanessaE already found one. 04:06 hmmmm void main() { while (1) char *foo = new char[4096]; } 04:08 VanessaE standby. 04:10 * VanessaE waits for swap to clear out (forgot to swapoff before testing) 04:10 RealBadAngel i found why highlight makes traces, which dissapear after some time 04:11 hmmmm well you can leave swap on, it'd just take a lot longer to do 04:11 RealBadAngel it was extremaly bad idea to copy settings and variables and make them mesh instance internal 04:11 RealBadAngel thats why they work on outdated copies 04:12 VanessaE hmmmm: heh, no backtrace to print in gdb for that little test program :D 04:12 hmmmm OOM killer killed it? 04:12 VanessaE yup 04:12 hmmmm ahh 04:13 hmmmm for some reason when people get the std::bad_alloc thing, they have OOM killer turned off or something 04:13 RealBadAngel any variable that chaghes dynamically cannot be copied all over and let threads working on copies 04:13 hmmmm or did you specifically set it in the first place 04:13 hmmmm RealBadAngel, ??? 04:14 RealBadAngel im talkin now specifically about pointed thing position 04:14 hmmmm ah 04:14 RealBadAngel or crack 04:15 VanessaE hmmmm: want the dmesg output from the OOM killer hitting that test program? 04:15 hmmmm sure 04:15 RealBadAngel such things have to be global 04:15 hmmmm can't hurt 04:16 RealBadAngel passing them all the time is a) waste of time b) just askin for workin on outdated copies 04:16 VanessaE hmmmm: http://pastebin.com/tepaNaCZ 04:16 hmmmm no vanessa 04:16 hmmmm use new[] 04:17 hmmmm char *foo = new char[4096]; 04:17 VanessaE ok, let's give that a shot then 04:17 hmmmm err, rather, make it 1mb 04:18 VanessaE bleh, this is why I don't program in C++ 04:18 VanessaE test.c:1:26: error: expected expression before ‘char’ 04:18 VanessaE void main() { while (1) char *foo = new char[1048576]; } 04:19 RealBadAngel anyway, from now on im starting to move ALL of the settings and global variables to own class, accesible everywhere 04:19 VanessaE RealBadAngel: good idea. 04:19 RealBadAngel by variable names ofc, no more strings based solutions 04:23 VanessaE also helps if I use g++ rather than gcc but that just gives me a new error (test.c:1:11: error: ‘::main’ must return ‘int’) 04:23 hmmmm vanessae: yea I was just about to say that 04:23 hmmmm lol 04:24 VanessaE I read "void main()" and I think C. :) 04:24 VanessaE THERE. 04:24 VanessaE now the fucking thing compiles now that it's int main(). 04:26 VanessaE http://pastebin.com/KK652LUB 04:26 VanessaE there you go :) 04:30 hmmmm aha 04:30 hmmmm so it OOM kills before the std::bad_alloc is thrown 04:38 hmmmm most of the time, out of memory errors are caused by infinite loops where memory is allocated 04:54 VanessaE zeno's account is online, trying to get him to wake up and come over here to address the vm issue, if it is still valid. 05:08 Zeno` Regarding the voxelmanip bug, it only seems to occur in multiplayer 05:09 Zeno` Testing the same mods on my local test server with only one player it's fine and the generated blocks don't disappear 05:10 Zeno` So, something in hmmmm's latest changes doesn't work as expected 05:12 Zeno` Perhaps it's when two people (or more) are exploring the same area? 05:16 Zeno` I am encountering this bug when using caverealms 05:16 Zeno` You can see the caves generate and then a moment later they just go away 05:18 hmmmm Zeno`, hello 05:18 hmmmm how can it happen only on multiplayer 05:18 hmmmm you realize that singleplayer is the same as multiplayer if you only had one player on a server? 05:19 hmmmm zeno`, could it be that your server is out of date? 05:19 Zeno` Out of date in what manner? 05:20 Zeno` The bug showed up in HEAD so I've reverted to f3eefeb7948b8b8d1a98f2f89baa39abc807f72d and everything works as expected again? 05:21 hmmmm okay, I thought that the server hosting this mod might be a different version 05:21 Zeno` hmmmm, I meant multiple players 05:21 hmmmm wait a minute 05:21 hmmmm hold up hold up 05:21 hmmmm you REVERTED your server to f33feb and it works? 05:22 Zeno` correct 05:22 hmmmm no problems with the codebase at that commit? 05:22 Zeno` Well, no regions appearing then disappearing, no 05:22 hmmmm "well, no"? 05:22 Zeno` oh wait 05:22 Zeno` reverted to e5b4748bb44a12fd09a92f7d36986b4bda86e6bf 05:22 hmmmm please get your story straight, I can't independently verify this behavior so I'm totally relying on you 05:23 VanessaE ...that makes more sense. 05:23 hmmmm okay so Zeno`, one of the three mapgen-related changes caused the problem 05:23 hmmmm does the commit 3fa4f78 cause this problem? 05:23 Zeno` yes 05:24 VanessaE yes to which part? 05:24 Zeno` Ok, I don't know. I'll have to test... somehow 05:24 Zeno` The problem with testing is that it kind of destroys the world on the server 05:25 hmmmm Zeno`: you can make test worlds 05:25 Zeno` I'll think of a way 05:25 Zeno` hmmmm, yes I'll have to organise a group of players to join my test world 05:25 Zeno` It doesn't happen with just one player 05:25 hmmmm okay 05:27 VanessaE wasn't there a mode that could simulate random input from multiple clients? 05:27 VanessaE probably won't work here i guess 05:28 hmmmm there was vanessa 05:28 hmmmm i am not quite sure what happened to that 05:28 VanessaE Zeno`: or do what I've done before: open multiple clients and point them at the test world 05:29 hmmmm i would imagine the latter is a better way to do this though 05:29 Zeno` Yes, I'll try this 05:29 VanessaE think I was stress-testing someone's server once. had 20 or so instances open 05:34 Zeno` I can't do this today, though. 05:35 VanessaE hmmmm: isn't there some way you can perform the same test? caverealms mod, clean world, multiple clients connecting 05:35 hmmmm =/ 05:35 Zeno` Krock has a similar (or the same) issue also.. need to work out of his happens for him when multiple clients are connected or when only one client is connected 05:35 Zeno` I don't know what mod he's using but his blocks are mostly air, mine are mostly stone (with air added) 05:35 Zeno` this is caverealms by the way 05:35 VanessaE I think his is a custom mapgen he's writing. 05:36 Zeno` Specifically this version of caverealms: https://github.com/Zeno-/minetest-caverealms 05:36 VanessaE Yappy 05:36 VanessaE https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=9834 05:36 VanessaE that's the one 05:37 hmmmm wow 05:38 hmmmm player movement is incredibly choppy 05:38 VanessaE yep, we all know this. needs interpolating or something on the client end 05:43 hmmmm I can't replicate it 05:44 hmmmm i am running two separate clients with a server using Yappy 05:44 hmmmm i teleported both players to the same area within 1 second of each other 05:46 hmmmm FWIW, yappy is a nice looking mapgen, but there's not much variation in terrain. no oceans and no mountains with ridges 05:46 hmmmm it looks like a 2d perlin noise base that only has a very small amount of ground fall below water_level so that it forms the river shapes as curves between high points of perlin noise 05:47 hmmmm and then there is negative 3d noise splattered around that serve as both the mapgen's caves and "cool" features 06:06 Zeno` I might copy the server world to my local computer next week and test that way 06:07 Zeno` the db is 7.9G so I won't be able to download it until a time when fewer players are online 06:13 hmmmm can you try doing this on a fresh world 06:13 hmmmm just to eliminate any possibilities 06:13 hmmmm of problems 06:13 hmmmm not related to the actual issue 06:14 sol_invictus sorry for interrupting, but I want to ask, can leveldb backend be bugged? 06:14 Zeno` hmmmm, that's what I have been doing (a fresh world) 06:15 VanessaE sol_invictus: depends on where you want the audio sent to. some good bugs can transmit for miles and take up very little space. 06:15 Zeno` But if I can't reproduce using the fresh world then I guess I'll attempt on the "old world" 06:15 Zeno` I dunno 06:15 Zeno` Too tired 06:15 hmmmm zeno`, i can't replicate it. 06:15 Zeno` With caverealms? 06:15 hmmmm with yappy 06:15 sol_invictus VanessaE: I'm not sure I get you 06:16 VanessaE sol_invictus: I was joking. 06:16 VanessaE sol_invictus: yes it's possible for the leveldb backend to have a bug, but not of the type that would cause this kind of issue 06:16 Zeno` I haven't tried yappy. But I'll try and replicate with caverealms on my test world 06:16 hmmmm sol_invictus: vanessae was referring to 'bugged' in the sense of 'wiretapped' rather than 'have a software issue' 06:16 sol_invictus VanessaE: I don't get jokes sometimes, not native english :D 06:17 sol_invictus ahah, now I get it 06:17 hmmmm s/wiretap/covert sound recorder/ 06:18 VanessaE the joke was specific to his choice of grammar :) 06:19 sol_invictus currently I was referring another kind of issue: world runs for some time poerfectly, lag is <1s but at some point I start getting 'too many objects' and soon after that it starts lagging as crazy 06:20 sol_invictus is there any way to list objects in a block? because I teleport to the point reported by the server and there is nothing there 06:20 VanessaE anyway my first thought was that https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1479 could somehow be related 06:20 VanessaE but I don't see how, as it predates this by a wide margin 06:21 VanessaE sol_invictus: is pipeworks installed on that server? 06:21 sol_invictus no, never was installed 06:21 VanessaE FINALLY 06:21 VanessaE SOMEONE has that same bug WITHOUT pipeworks! 06:22 VanessaE I have had this same problem on two of my servers in the past 06:22 VanessaE I was never able to resolve it 06:22 VanessaE it just sorta "fizzled out" as player traffic dwindled. 06:23 sol_invictus last time I did /clearobjects and migrate sqlite>leveldb>sqlite and the problem resolved 06:23 sol_invictus currently I'm not sure which action helped 06:23 sol_invictus oops 06:24 VanessaE it wasn't /clearobjects 06:24 VanessaE because that does NOT remove the errant objects 06:24 sol_invictus leveldb>sqlite>leveldb* 06:24 VanessaE I've tried. 06:24 sol_invictus what backend were you using? 06:24 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1426 06:24 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1425 06:24 VanessaE I use leveldb. 06:25 VanessaE do these ^^^^ look like what you were seeing? 06:26 sol_invictus I see messages about objects, but don't get segfaults 06:27 sol_invictus it's qust lagging te server down 06:34 sol_invictus confirmed, clearobjects did nothing 06:34 VanessaE better file an issue 06:34 sol_invictus definitely it was migration 06:35 sol_invictus I'm not sure how to formulate this problem 06:37 Zeno` hmmmm, should these commits be branched off until the issue is discovered (since it may take a long time for that to happen) 06:38 Zeno` The matter, as I see it, is that it's a pretty serious issue even if it has only been *noticed* by two people so far 06:39 VanessaE I have to agree. 06:39 VanessaE until we can delete blocks from the database FROM WITHIN THE GAME, it's too dangerous to run that code on a production server. 06:39 VanessaE and if it remains in master, it WILL end up in production servers sooner or later. 06:41 hmmmm zeno`: what? 06:42 Zeno` I mean that I don't think they should be there until they've been tested thoroughly 06:42 hmmmm you're asking me to revert three commits because you can't find the exact one and it causes a relatively obscure bug that only you and one other person seem to have? 06:42 sol_invictus VanessaE: feel free to correct me https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1611 06:42 Zeno` hmmmm, yes 06:42 hmmmm you're acting like these patches were defective and clearly not ready for public consumption 06:42 hmmmm you're an outlier though. they work fine for everybody else. 06:42 VanessaE sol_invictus: seems good enough. 06:42 Zeno` Well, clearly they are defective 06:42 hmmmm they are not defective. 06:43 Zeno` The fact that only 2 people have noticed the issue so far is irrelevant 06:43 hmmmm you have some specific configuration that has some kind of side effect activated by one of these patches 06:43 hmmmm Zeno`: that is not how software works 06:43 hmmmm Zeno`: when a user experiences a bug, they don't tell the software people to revert their changes until they can solve it for them 06:44 Zeno` hmmmm, you've obviously never programmed firmware, because things should not be TESTED and TRUSTED 06:44 hmmmm it gets added to the issue tracker and resolved as it comes along 06:44 Zeno` should be* 06:44 hmmmm this isn't firmware. it's a freaking game. 06:44 Zeno` That has 3 commits that cause a defect 06:44 hmmmm three commits don't cause a defect 06:44 hmmmm one of them do, and you're just too lazy to find the right one 06:44 Zeno` They're not my commits 06:44 hmmmm and it doesn't cause a defect for the vast majority of people 06:45 hmmmm and I can't reproduce any of the problems you've been mentioning so far 06:45 Zeno` How do you know it doesn't cause a defect for the vast majority of people? 06:45 hmmmm because you and one other person complained and i haven't seen anybody else even able to replicate it 06:45 Zeno` Have you asked the vast majority of people to look for this thing? 06:46 Zeno` Have you asked all the people who run servers to look for it? (The only people likely to come across it) 06:46 VanessaE hmmmm: be fair, how often do you even GET people in this channel to test stuff like this? 06:46 hmmmm one of those patches, in fact, fixes another problem that's been around a lot longer but it affects EVERYBODY 06:46 hmmmm VanessaE, if it were really such a huge, fatal issue, everybody would be 06:46 hmmmm running in here and screaming about it 06:46 VanessaE hmmmm: they can't. 06:46 hmmmm zeno is acting as if this is some fatal defective flaw 06:46 Zeno` hmmmm, because it is 06:46 hmmmm "nobody even tested this shit" 06:46 VanessaE hmmmm: webchat is blocked from this channel, and "everybody" uses that :P 06:47 hmmmm webchat? 06:47 VanessaE mmhmm 06:47 Zeno` hmmmm, show me your tests where you tested this with 20 players please 06:47 hmmmm ... 06:47 Zeno` actually show me ANY tests 06:47 hmmmm Zeno`, for now you can revert back to a previous patch, or just revert the offending patches in your own branch, or use a non-development version 06:47 VanessaE hmmmm: that was a bit tongue in cheek but my point is that most people won't complain. 06:48 hmmmm why you are demanding i revert changes based off of two peoples' undemonstrated claims is beyond me. 06:48 Zeno` How many people run a server? Not many... so who is going to investigate this flaw? 06:48 Zeno` Who's even looking for it? 06:48 hmmmm Zeno`, I thought you were 06:48 Zeno` I am not demanding anything 06:48 hmmmm Zeno`, if you spent less time bitching and more time testing, things would get fixed 06:48 Zeno` and if you spent more time listening to people you'd have fewer problems 06:48 hmmmm i would love to get this fixed but i need your cooperation 06:49 hmmmm don't just tell me "ugh revert these horrific changes!" 06:49 hmmmm "they're obviously defective pieces of shit" 06:49 Zeno` ok 06:49 hmmmm that's the vibe i got anyway 06:50 hmmmm aigh 06:50 Zeno` yes, well I apologise 06:50 hmmmm so, again, does the issue persist at 3fa4f78 06:50 hmmmm last time i asked this you said "meeeeeeh not now" or something along those lines 06:50 Zeno` But to me they're showstoppers. I'll keep testing though 06:51 hmmmm "they're" 06:51 Zeno` The problem is I can only reproduce this on my server 06:51 hmmmm you say "they're" because you don't even know which one causes the problem 06:51 Zeno` I can't just take it down and wreck the world to do a test 06:51 Zeno` So I have to, first, reproduce on my home computer 06:51 hmmmm if you can only reproduce it on a specific world, doesn't that point to the specific world as having the problem? 06:52 Zeno` No 06:52 Zeno` I haven't had 15 players connected to my test world yet 06:52 Zeno` it may take me a month or so to convince enough players to join my world 06:52 hmmmm there is absolutely no way having 15 players can cause an issue 06:52 Zeno` You 100% sure? 06:53 hmmmm pretty damn sure. 06:53 Zeno` Well, maybe it's the 0.0001% possibility 06:53 hmmmm if it's so difficult to get the necessary number of people to reproduce this bug, but otherwise it works fine, how the hell is that a showstopper....? 06:53 Zeno` In any case, yes I will test this for you 06:53 Zeno` It's a showstopper for anyone running a server 06:54 Zeno` Or do you suggest I just delete the world and start again? 06:54 hmmmm were you the person who had "Assertion failed" from get_data()? 06:54 Zeno` I have to go, but I will test this 06:54 Zeno` different mod 06:54 hmmmm ghgh 06:54 Zeno` but yes 06:54 hmmmm anyway run gdb next time you're testing for that one 06:54 hmmmm i'd like a backtrace from the C++ side 06:55 Zeno` Yes I've been waiting for it to happen again 06:55 hmmmm okay 06:55 hmmmm so you've already been running it in gdb 06:55 hmmmm that's good 06:55 Zeno` since yesterday 06:58 hmmmm i keep looking at any of those three commits and failing to see how any of these issues are even possible 06:59 hmmmm if you do find the problem, it's going to be an interesting one for sure. 07:29 sol_invictus updated #1611 07:32 VanessaE yep, that looks exactly like my issue 07:32 VanessaE and indeed, when it happened to me, there was nothing whatsoever in the area when I went and looked. 07:32 VanessaE just normal everyday terrain 07:33 sol_invictus ave 07:33 sol_invictus have you reverted to sqlite eventually or still using leveldb?* 07:33 VanessaE still using leveldb 07:34 Krock http://pastebin.com/xgKveArs 07:35 sol_invictus I wonder if anyone tried redis on production. Anyone having too much RAM? xD 07:35 VanessaE sol_invictus: I did not try the double migrate trick - wasn't aware of it. I gave up trying to find the cause and eventually players just stopped visiting as much 07:36 sol_invictus VanessaE: I'm reverting to sqlite until the issue is resolved 07:37 VanessaE who maintains that backend anyway> 07:37 sol_invictus which one? 07:37 VanessaE leveldb 07:38 sol_invictus I'm totally unaware of that, still noob here 07:38 Krock VanessaE, some google code coders :3 07:40 VanessaE looks like xyz used to, sfan5 mostly now 07:41 VanessaE sol_invictus: but does it happen with sqlite at all? 07:42 VanessaE (without migration involved that is) 07:42 sol_invictus well, I'm currently doing migration and in a day or two we will know if it happens 07:43 VanessaE ok 07:43 sol_invictus last time it ran perfectly two days before slowdown. on leveldb. doing remigration every two days would suck. 07:43 VanessaE indeed 07:44 VanessaE well think I'll go to bed now 07:44 VanessaE night 07:44 sol_invictus bye 07:45 sol_invictus it's still morning in russia ^^ 07:46 sol_invictus so, no one actually used redis as a backend here? 07:46 sol_invictus I can't believe it 08:39 Krock https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1607#issuecomment-54740076 09:08 PenguinDad Krock: which compiler version do you use? 09:09 Krock PenguinDad, "msbuild /version" outputs 4.0.30319.1 09:13 Krock nvm I think I solved the problem 09:14 Krock need to test it on other mapgens now 09:44 Zeno` gcc (GCC) 4.8.3 20140624 and I get the issue with https://github.com/Zeno-/minetest-caverealms 09:46 Zeno` I can get this to occur locally now using backend dummy 09:46 Zeno` No other mods installed 10:26 Zeno` This doesn't make any @&$*@ sense. For the last hour I've been able to replicate the undesired behaviour, and now it's not happening 10:26 Zeno` Maybe it depends on the position of the moon 13:12 Taoki[laptop] https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10077&p=153419 Please check this out fellow Minetest devs 13:13 Taoki[laptop] Need to know opinions, for when I return home and get back to coding here and there 13:18 T4im i think client side colorgrading would fit well into that.. allowing to gray everything a bit if theres a storm, or yellowing/brightening it a bit, if its a hot summer day, (in contrast to the sky coloring it woud generally affect everything then) 13:19 Krock I submit "Don't care." because it will be buggy or laggy anyways. 13:20 Taoki[laptop] Krock: I plan to make sure that won't be the case :) Since it's hard coded client-side, it won't be 13:20 Krock MT devs have enough work with bugs. better fix those first 13:21 Krock Taoki[laptop], I was talking about client sided lag. 13:21 T4im krock: that is solveable by something called 'configuration' 13:21 T4im like quite common with gfx.. 15:02 VanessaE Taoki[laptop]: well an hour and a half later and you've already got 6 for, 1 against and 1 don't care. I think we know where this is going ;0 15:02 VanessaE ;) 15:05 Taoki[laptop] :) 15:15 VanessaE one suggestion: Allow the server to tell the client to follow the local humidity as defined by the desert/grass areas of the map (same as plants_lib does) 15:16 VanessaE that way the humidity can increase as the user, say, walks out of a desert. if it's raining at the edge, the rain gets worse as the user walks further in, etc. 15:17 VanessaE that way there's no worry about lag. 15:20 VanessaE similarly, it would be useful if precipitation could be made to vary with elevation 15:20 VanessaE just some density multiplier, nothing fancy 16:19 RealBadAngel Taoki[laptop], 10 for 16:54 VanessaE RealBadAngel: I wanna know which chowderhead voted "no" :P 17:04 * nore voted "yes" 17:06 VanessaE Taoki[laptop]: summarized my suggestions from above, added some stuff: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10077&p=153445#p153445 17:19 Krock VanessaE, I voted "Con't care" 17:19 Krock s/c/d 17:21 * PenguinDad voted "yep" 19:53 sol_invictus blargh 19:54 sol_invictus VanessaE, seems like it's not exactly leveldb, the issue is present on sqlite as well 19:54 VanessaE hrm 19:54 VanessaE well at least that rules out the database backend being the problem 19:54 VanessaE what mods are installed? 19:55 VanessaE anything at all that could be creating these entities? 19:55 sol_invictus is there any way to see object creation calls? 19:55 VanessaE I expect you'll have to add a line or two of debug output to the engine for that 19:57 sol_invictus I can't think of a mod creating these entities 20:00 sol_invictus what exactly is object? 20:00 VanessaE ? 20:01 VanessaE oh. 20:01 sol_invictus does this term include anything but entities? 20:01 VanessaE um. 20:01 VanessaE actually I think it's just entities isn't it? 20:02 sol_invictus that's how I understand it as well 20:02 sol_invictus making sure I'm not missing something 20:04 VanessaE well players too, but I doubt the engine is creating dozens of those out of the aether. 20:04 sol_invictus ah yes 20:05 sol_invictus why they can't fix he problem with player removal 20:05 VanessaE *shrug* 20:05 VanessaE I guess that's been left to ShadowNinja to fix since he caused it 20:06 ShadowNinja VanessaE: No, I didn't cause it. My changes may have made it more obvious though. 20:06 sol_invictus mt definitely needs more core devs 20:06 VanessaE ShadowNinja: ok. 20:07 VanessaE ShadowNinja: fix it anyway ;) 20:07 ShadowNinja sol_invictus: Maybe, but who would be add? Good core devs are hard to find. 20:07 ShadowNinja we* 20:07 sol_invictus ShadowNinja: yeah I see. just saying. 20:08 sol_invictus I was thinking that maybe more attention to mt in general could help? 20:08 sol_invictus we (LL owners) are planning to make some advertisement 20:09 sol_invictus we think that generally, presense of good servers should help drog more devs to this project 20:10 sol_invictus correct me if I am wrong 20:16 sol_invictus what is a particle spawner? 20:16 sol_invictus is it an entity as well? 20:17 VanessaE it does use entities but they're client-side only 20:17 sol_invictus - means they are not saved on map whatsoever? 20:18 sol_invictus just sent to client? 20:18 VanessaE means the server tells the client to start spawning them and destroying them in realtimwe 20:19 VanessaE -w 20:19 VanessaE they are not saved in the map. 20:19 sol_invictus and still 20:19 VanessaE same for the add particle call. the server tells the client to create the entity, lets it persist for a bit, then destroys it. the server doesn't store anything about it. 20:20 VanessaE in both cases the client handles it entirely on its own 20:20 sol_invictus why the heck /clearbjocts is not removing these objects? 20:20 VanessaE I have no idea but I had the same trouble 20:20 VanessaE /clearobjects, come back right after, and they're still there, possibly even MORE of them than there were before. 20:20 sol_invictus I don't know how to find out why remigration helps 20:21 VanessaE and yet there's nothing visible in the world to imply that they're there except that if you drop something from your inventory, it gets deleted by the "too many objects" code. 20:21 sol_invictus for some reason these messages are referring always underground nodes 20:21 VanessaE (worldedit's [1] and [2] and checkerboard markers similarly get deleted) 20:22 VanessaE not always 20:22 VanessaE for me, the errant location was in the air 20:22 VanessaE just above the ground to be more specific. 20:22 VanessaE 18:54:14: ERROR[ServerThread]: ServerEnv: Trying to store id=645 statically but block (-43,1,-28) already contains 11255 objects. Forcing delete. 20:23 sol_invictus right, not always 20:23 sol_invictus mostly, for me 20:23 VanessaE nothing there on that map but terrain, and some old house a few dozen meters away 20:23 sol_invictus I got messages for overground blocks as well 20:23 sol_invictus >11255 omg 20:23 VanessaE yeah. 20:24 VanessaE and my servers' limit is 500. 20:25 sol_invictus okay 20:25 T4im is it possible those entities are held up within solid nodes, so that you dont see them? 20:26 sol_invictus if there is no way to see calls in the logs, no way to list objects in a block... 20:26 sol_invictus shouldn't it be implemented? 20:27 sol_invictus maybe names of these objects could help 20:27 kahrl we need a pymtlevel 20:27 sol_invictus T4im: i tried to dig all the place around, nothing 20:28 kahrl for obj in map.block(-43,1,-28).static_objects: print(obj.name) 20:28 sol_invictus oh, that's cool 20:28 sol_invictus I will try tomorrow 20:28 VanessaE T4im: even if they were, they shouldn't be re-created continuously. 20:35 sol_invictus I wonder if it's only us having this problem? 20:35 sol_invictus VanessaE maybe other owners are not paying attention? 20:35 VanessaE idk 20:36 sol_invictus because this object replication issue seems to be the reason of the lags 20:36 sol_invictus and I haven't seen a non-laggy server on list 20:36 T4im last time i've seen entities duplicate was after setting up a quarry horribly wrong.. at first it was just the output of the quarry crashing the server, but after the restart there were quite a lot more entities around, than there should have been.. especially within nodes.. lava makes a horrible entity trash :D 20:36 T4im but i guess thats related to the crash as well then 20:38 sol_invictus well, the problem is I don't have mods thot could obviously create those objects 20:38 sol_invictus I even disabled tho mobs 20:44 T4im hm.. signs_lib does spawn entities too afaik.. maybe you have 'rogue sign'? ;) 20:44 VanessaE once. 20:44 VanessaE it spawns an entity one time for each sign and then goes idle. 20:46 sol_invictus yes, I don't think signs is to blame. anyways, I'm going to sleep 20:46 sol_invictus see you all later 20:46 T4im good night, sol 20:46 sol_invictus ty 20:55 RealBadAngel VanessaE, Kahrl, make highlighting menu setting? 20:56 VanessaE yeah 20:56 kahrl sure 20:56 VanessaE a spinbox or something like that 20:56 VanessaE (highlight, selectbox, both) 21:18 RealBadAngel kahrl, VanessaE, btw, when playing with just vertices i can animate them too 21:18 RealBadAngel make the node actually shrink and grow a bit 21:19 VanessaE interesting idea, so long as it's subtle 21:21 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: Sounds prone to messing faces drawing, like http://i.imgur.com/a3gSxvv.png 21:25 ShadowNinja missing* 21:25 ShadowNinja ^ That was made with waving leaves. 21:25 ShadowNinja (With fancy_leaves off of course) 21:25 RealBadAngel ShadowNinja, interesting, will try to reproduce it now 21:25 VanessaE ShadowNinja: I can't reproduce that. 21:25 VanessaE wait, fancy off. 21:25 VanessaE ah, yep, I can reproduce that. 21:28 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: Also happens with water top face, one minute... 21:29 RealBadAngel only when you make them solid 21:29 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: http://i.imgur.com/mUHqETz.png 21:29 VanessaE ShadowNinja: that's a rather old bug 21:30 VanessaE been there ever since new style water was in 21:31 RealBadAngel i wasnt aware of it, never using soild leaves and water 21:31 ShadowNinja ^ The water bug happened before too, which is why the lowering code was moved out of shaders. 21:31 VanessaE I'm kinda surprised no one's addressed that one. 21:31 RealBadAngel this is not shaders bug 21:31 RealBadAngel shaders just make it visible 21:32 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: Oh, and: http://i.imgur.com/WyYVcIG.png 21:32 VanessaE ShadowNinja: already reported that one :) 21:32 ShadowNinja It happened with the old water lowering shaders too, but not with the in-engine water lowering code. 21:33 RealBadAngel what am i seeing at the last one? 21:33 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: The bottom vertecies of the water are lowered too, into the node below. 21:33 VanessaE RealBadAngel: bottom coordinates of a node under the influence of the water surface shader should not move. 21:34 RealBadAngel first heard that something moves under influence of water 21:34 VanessaE RealBadAngel: I've mentioned this before. 21:35 RealBadAngel that cannot happen at all 21:35 VanessaE it does. 21:35 VanessaE :) 21:35 VanessaE always has. 21:35 RealBadAngel only moving stuff is water or leaves 21:35 RealBadAngel and plants 21:35 VanessaE it's the water that moved. 21:35 RealBadAngel moved what? 21:35 VanessaE the bottom surface/vertexes of the water node are moved down to follow the movement of the top surface 21:36 VanessaE as the top surface of the water wavers around, so does the bottom surface 21:36 VanessaE (if you can call it a surface, since it's just the bottom edges of the node's sides) 21:37 RealBadAngel thx to that you have waves on shore 21:38 VanessaE only the top surface movement creates the waves. 21:38 VanessaE the bottom edges of those nodes are still hidden under the surface of the sand et al. 21:38 RealBadAngel thats not true 21:39 RealBadAngel if bottom were not moving you wont be able to see clear sand 21:39 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: You sholdn't be moving the bottom four vertecies. 21:40 ShadowNinja verticies* 21:40 VanessaE wrong again RealBadAngel. I just now checked. 21:40 ShadowNinja (vertices*?) 21:41 VanessaE vertexes. :P 21:41 RealBadAngel there are no such thing as four bottom vertices 21:41 VanessaE RealBadAngel: screenshot: 21:41 VanessaE http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/Screenshot%20-%2009072014%20-%2005%3a41%3a56%20PM.png 21:41 VanessaE that's flowing water there. 22:17 RealBadAngel so you cannot expect to assign that to whatever node and expect reflections vertically or underground 22:18 RealBadAngel shader will work under 2 conditions, a) it is water node b) its top surface is at ocean level 22:21 RealBadAngel however i can see no reason why modder couldnt change its name 22:21 RealBadAngel im using internal name for it 22:26 VanessaE the NAME is the whole argument. 22:26 VanessaE it cannot and must not be locked to default:water_* 22:27 VanessaE but at the same time it must be able to be applied to any node that sits at sea level and which is otherwise defined as a liquid 22:27 VanessaE same reflection/etc applied to all 22:27 VanessaE just the color changes 22:27 VanessaE that alone would satisfy 99% of modders' complaints I think 22:28 VanessaE shader should treat any node it finds at sea level that is a liquid (and that isn't lava) as being a candidate for this shader 22:33 RealBadAngel shaders never "detects" nodes 22:33 RealBadAngel shaders are being assinged to nodes 22:33 RealBadAngel by their drawtypes 22:33 VanessaE you know what I meant. 22:35 RealBadAngel technically it will propably look like that: liqiud drawtypes will be separated 22:35 RealBadAngel into general liquids, and water 22:35 RealBadAngel whatever you will assign to water drawtype will become water 22:36 RealBadAngel so i wont care how you will name your water, be it superdefault:milk ;) 22:37 VanessaE heh 22:37 RealBadAngel but it will look like water if it will use this drawtype :P 22:37 VanessaE well the point is that it better sure as hell look like a big ocean of milk :) 22:37 RealBadAngel as i mentioned you will be propably able to tint the water 22:38 RealBadAngel or give it another pertrurbation map for waves 22:38 VanessaE then there is probably no real issue here. 22:38 RealBadAngel but then the modding abilities ends 22:38 VanessaE you're sitting here making it sound like we can only ever have exactly one kind of water etc :) 22:38 VanessaE s/water/water-like liquid/ 22:38 RealBadAngel i mean ofc the look of the water 22:39 VanessaE will the milk be white? 22:39 RealBadAngel another properties you can change as you wish 22:39 VanessaE will it ripple and glisten in the sun? 22:39 RealBadAngel propapbly yes 22:39 VanessaE can I have a lake of water next to it doing the same thing with the same shader? 22:39 RealBadAngel no 22:39 VanessaE ok, what's the failure mode then? 22:39 VanessaE what happens if the modder does exactly that? 22:40 RealBadAngel idk yet 22:40 VanessaE haha 22:40 RealBadAngel well i do know 22:40 RealBadAngel both will look the same 22:40 RealBadAngel theres one shader 22:41 kahrl does it even have to be another drawtype? couldn't NDT_LIQUID check if _perturbation.png exists and if so apply the new shader? 22:41 VanessaE so the tint applied to one gets used to both? 22:41 kahrl (like the way normal maps work) 22:41 VanessaE for both* 22:41 RealBadAngel tinting is part of the algorithm 22:41 VanessaE that didn't answer my question 22:41 VanessaE the tint is specified where? in the node def? 22:42 RealBadAngel no, in the shader 22:42 VanessaE how do I tell the shader that my milk lake is white? 22:42 RealBadAngel you can pass that value on shader compile time 22:42 VanessaE WHAT? 22:42 VanessaE my milk is starting to turn into cheese.. 22:42 RealBadAngel when all the shaders are created 22:43 VanessaE ok and how exactly is that value passed to the shader? 22:43 RealBadAngel read from nodedef 22:43 VanessaE by what API function or call or parameter is it given? :) 22:43 RealBadAngel for example 22:43 VanessaE *heddesk* 22:43 VanessaE [09-07 18:43] the tint is specified where? in the node def? 22:43 VanessaE [09-07 18:44] read from nodedef 22:43 VanessaE *heddesk* 22:44 RealBadAngel by now it is only in shader :P 22:44 RealBadAngel but can be 22:44 VanessaE it will have to be 22:44 RealBadAngel ofc, but still 22:44 VanessaE then what will happen? 22:44 RealBadAngel theres just one such shader 22:44 VanessaE two nodes pass this value? 22:44 VanessaE last passed is the one that is used? 22:44 RealBadAngel and wont get multiplied to serve another nodes 22:44 VanessaE *shakes head* 22:45 VanessaE this won't do. 22:45 VanessaE modders will wring you dry if you do that :) 22:45 VanessaE with lava, you can get away with it. 22:45 RealBadAngel are you aware of it that mt has about 60 shaders already? 22:45 VanessaE with "water" you can't, because it's more than just water :) 22:45 VanessaE I am now. I figured it was closer to a dozen 22:47 RealBadAngel each dtawtype X material type = number of shaders 22:47 RealBadAngel so, thats the way for your node to use wanted shader 22:48 RealBadAngel you have to pick correct drawtype and material 22:48 VanessaE I wasn't talking about adding another shader. 22:48 VanessaE I was talking about adapting the shader to read its settings in realtime for the piece of mesh it's operating on 22:48 RealBadAngel but 22:48 RealBadAngel liqiuds are exceptions 22:49 RealBadAngel they simply do have different code 22:49 RealBadAngel so water shader is completely different from lava one 22:50 RealBadAngel you wont be trying to make water look like lava and vice versa, wont you? 22:50 VanessaE of course not. 22:50 VanessaE I don't even create new liquids 22:50 VanessaE but plenty of modders do 22:50 RealBadAngel how could you assign lava shader to lava node? 22:50 RealBadAngel by checking if its called cheese? 22:50 RealBadAngel or damn lava? 22:50 VanessaE no. 22:51 VanessaE I was thinking more like passing raw colors etc to the shader 22:51 VanessaE it doesn't need to know node names. 22:51 VanessaE it just needs to know that {123, 456, 789} needs a base color of #431256 22:51 RealBadAngel its shader that make it looks like lava not modder that gives it a name 22:51 RealBadAngel same applies to water 22:51 VanessaE you're not listening to me 22:52 VanessaE it doesn't need to know nodenames. it just needs to know that {123, 456, 789} needs a base color of #431256. compile that list when you build the mesh for display. 22:52 RealBadAngel you want me to make it moddable 22:52 RealBadAngel i say it will be just slightly moddable 22:52 RealBadAngel but you cannot turn water into milk completely 22:52 VanessaE the only thing that needs to be moddable is the color and MAYBE the perturbation normalmap. 22:52 RealBadAngel or lava into cheese 22:53 VanessaE what? no Velveeta rivers? ;) 22:53 VanessaE when you build the mesh, you have the node names then, right? 22:53 RealBadAngel water shader is meant to do realistic water, nothing less nothing more 22:53 VanessaE I mean the regular mesh 22:54 VanessaE yes or no? 22:54 RealBadAngel using it for something another is just plain stupid 22:54 RealBadAngel and just wont work any good 22:54 VanessaE it's not stupid, because it's not just water. it's every low-viscosity liquid in every mod out there. 22:55 RealBadAngel more important for me are drawtypes 22:55 RealBadAngel not the node names 22:55 VanessaE yes 22:56 RealBadAngel and i will pick the water shader on the specific drawtype 22:56 VanessaE but with node names is the implication that the node looks different somehow 22:56 VanessaE even if all you can do is apply a new color and perturbation map, you have to be able to do that 22:56 RealBadAngel by now, yes 22:56 RealBadAngel because there are no special drawtypes yet 22:56 RealBadAngel so lava and water are using the same 22:57 blaise don't we need a cow, and some hay to turn water into milk? 22:57 RealBadAngel so only way for me to distinct them are the names 22:57 VanessaE blaise: nevermind. 22:57 * blaise hides 22:57 kahrl cowhides? 22:58 RealBadAngel but when i code new drawtype, i wont pay no shit how modder will name the water 22:58 VanessaE RealBadAngel: which is why I said to compile a table of liquid nodes. at most it'll only be 20k or so per mapblock if you do it right. 22:59 VanessaE every node in the mapblock that is a liquid of some kind --> coords in a table --> color #123456 or a tag indicating that it's lava 22:59 RealBadAngel if he decide to have default:milk with drawtype NDT_WATER its his problem 22:59 VanessaE read from that table in your shader, apply those colors as you step through each piece of the mesh 22:59 VanessaE (or switch shaders if the lava flag is set, whatever) 23:00 RealBadAngel you cannot pass such things to shaders 23:00 VanessaE why not? 23:00 VanessaE you figured out how to pass other stuff to them 23:00 RealBadAngel because its impossible? 23:00 VanessaE you can't pass a simple array of integers? 23:00 RealBadAngel i cannot pass to them even 3 vectors per mesh and you are talking bout 20k tables? lol 23:01 RealBadAngel i can compile shaders with some predefined values 23:01 RealBadAngel but cant send anything to them when rendering 23:01 kahrl perhaps it's possible to maniulate the vertex colors to account for tints? 23:02 RealBadAngel irrlicht doesnt supply such things 23:02 VanessaE fuck irrlicht 23:02 VanessaE go bare opengl if you have to 23:02 VanessaE :) 23:02 RealBadAngel irrlicht makes opengl shaders aviable 23:02 RealBadAngel their implementation sucks 23:02 RealBadAngel we are using irrlicht 23:03 RealBadAngel kahrl, thats why i removed finalcolorblend from shaders 23:03 RealBadAngel to have 3 bytes at my disposal 23:04 VanessaE http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39219 23:04 VanessaE looks like irrlicht can do this. 23:04 VanessaE unclear what the limit is though 23:05 RealBadAngel that wont work, tried those things 23:05 RealBadAngel first of all, not all cards would support that 23:05 RealBadAngel and mostly all opensource drivers will fail 23:05 VanessaE kahrl: good idea 23:06 RealBadAngel VanessaE, such shaders will not and wont be ever mixed 23:06 VanessaE well I give up. 23:07 RealBadAngel can you just listen to me? 23:07 VanessaE I am listening. 23:07 RealBadAngel water shader is using 4 out of 4 aviable textures 23:07 VanessaE but what you propose will require every game in existence to be modified. 23:07 RealBadAngel i mean texturing units 23:07 VanessaE and if you just change the default liquid draw type, you will break every liquid in existence (except water). 23:08 RealBadAngel refraction texture, reflection texture, depth texture and perturbation texture 23:08 RealBadAngel theres no way for such shader to serve anything else but water 23:08 RealBadAngel i say you can tint the water which is usually made blueish 23:09 RealBadAngel by giving another tint color 23:09 RealBadAngel but thats all what you can do with look of water 23:09 RealBadAngel rest is up to complex math 23:09 VanessaE but then no other liquid can be defined and still be able to glisten and wave and ripple. 23:10 RealBadAngel as i said, there is even no water texture 23:10 RealBadAngel all is CALCULATED 23:11 RealBadAngel you want to mod the water? write another shader and replace it for christ sake 23:11 kahrl do all of these textures use all channels? 23:11 kahrl otherwise they could be combined 23:11 RealBadAngel we are talking bout huge textures 23:11 kahrl so? 23:11 RealBadAngel rendering screens 23:12 RealBadAngel propably they could be combined, but then reading from them would be pain in the ass 23:13 kahrl ah, so they are dynamically updated with an actual render of the world 23:13 kahrl nvm then 23:13 RealBadAngel yes 23:13 RealBadAngel 3 of them actually 23:13 RealBadAngel perturbation map is static 23:14 kahrl is it grayscale? 23:14 RealBadAngel its a normalmap 23:14 kahrl ah, okay 23:17 RealBadAngel i will see if i will be able to make those texture aviable for more instaces of water shader 23:18 RealBadAngel i doubt that 23:18 VanessaE just go with your existing idea then 23:18 VanessaE water-only shader, new drawtype 23:18 RealBadAngel but if it will be possible maybe different couloured waters at the same time will be possible 23:18 VanessaE sure hope old clients handle it okay 23:19 RealBadAngel thats not my idea 23:19 RealBadAngel this is how its done everywhere 23:19 kahrl perhaps you can abuse the vertex normals to transfer the tint color 23:19 RealBadAngel even irrlicht has very specific kind of node 23:19 RealBadAngel water surface 23:19 kahrl since, if the water surface shader runs, you know that the normal had to be (0,1,0) 23:20 RealBadAngel http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/docu/example008.html 23:20 RealBadAngel kahrl, yup 23:21 RealBadAngel im gonna use that in such cases 23:21 RealBadAngel VanessaE, node = smgr->addWaterSurfaceSceneNode(mesh->getMesh(0), 3.0f, 300.0f, 30.0f); 23:21 RealBadAngel this is how one can add water in irrlicht 23:22 RealBadAngel as you can see its called water, and will look like water ;) 23:22 RealBadAngel also only at y=0 23:28 RealBadAngel btw, playing now with node highlighting and without selection boxes 23:28 RealBadAngel effect is cool 23:33 RealBadAngel hmm, i can even think of extending this 23:34 RealBadAngel make with similar effect placement prediction 23:35 RealBadAngel yup, gonna code that 23:39 VanessaE that'll be hard. 23:40 VanessaE (given how many ways there are to change the node after it's placed) 23:40 VanessaE what have you got in mind? 23:59 * VanessaE pokes RealBadAngel