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TriBlade9 |
Hello all! |
| 09:33 |
TriBlade9 |
casimir recommended I ask someone here about my registration problem |
| 09:43 |
TriBlade9 |
Nevermind, casimir did it already, :) |
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| 13:51 |
casimir |
Hi, http://translate.minetest.ru/projects/minetest/core/ gives me 502 Bad Gateway. Is this already known? |
| 13:52 |
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| 14:31 |
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| 14:32 |
kahrl |
casimir: yes, #1588 |
| 14:41 |
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| 14:42 |
kahrl |
I would register for the hosted weblate service but I don't know if we need to transfer all existing accounts and possibly other data |
| 14:45 |
RealBadAngel |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/client.cpp#L2563 |
| 14:46 |
RealBadAngel |
perfect example of wasting resources ^^ |
| 14:46 |
RealBadAngel |
playing with strings to get a bool on each mesh refresh |
| 14:48 |
RealBadAngel |
we have to make global settings class read just once, on game startup |
| 14:48 |
RealBadAngel |
such actions ingame are icredibly stupid |
| 14:49 |
kahrl |
RealBadAngel: then you have to recompile everything if you just add a setting |
| 14:49 |
RealBadAngel |
no i wont have to |
| 14:50 |
kahrl |
? |
| 14:50 |
RealBadAngel |
just read all the settings and keep them in a class |
| 14:50 |
kahrl |
what do you mean, just keep them in a class? |
| 14:50 |
RealBadAngel |
and call them by names |
| 14:51 |
kahrl |
class GlobalSettings { public: bool smooth_lighting; ... }? |
| 14:51 |
RealBadAngel |
kinda like that |
| 14:51 |
RealBadAngel |
using strings to get the setting is shooting own foot |
| 14:51 |
kahrl |
well that's what I mean, everything will include the header that declares this class |
| 14:51 |
RealBadAngel |
ofc |
| 14:51 |
RealBadAngel |
it already does |
| 14:51 |
kahrl |
so you have to recompile everything if you change it |
| 14:52 |
RealBadAngel |
its gonna be global change |
| 14:52 |
RealBadAngel |
but that waste has to be stopped |
| 15:19 |
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| 15:25 |
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| 15:26 |
RealBadAngel |
karhl, also argument that recompilation would be needed is not an argument. just laziness |
| 15:28 |
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| 15:29 |
RealBadAngel |
but to make my point clear. that class should read the settings old way |
| 15:29 |
RealBadAngel |
but should do it just once, on startup |
| 15:30 |
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| 15:30 |
RealBadAngel |
any code that would need any setting shall refer to the read values, made public via settings class |
| 15:31 |
RealBadAngel |
reading them runtime should be strictly prohibited |
| 15:33 |
RealBadAngel |
such ways are causing those mysterious spikes ingame |
| 15:33 |
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| 15:34 |
RealBadAngel |
i fight for nanoseconds in mapblock_mesh while another thread happily spends miliseconds on reading the setting all the time |
| 15:38 |
RealBadAngel |
also the settings are moved from one class to another |
| 15:38 |
RealBadAngel |
and made internal |
| 15:38 |
RealBadAngel |
which is also ridiculous |
| 15:40 |
RealBadAngel |
what for make m_smooth_lighting a variable for each mesh while its a global, non changeable runtime value? |
| 15:41 |
RealBadAngel |
propably only for higher memory usage and to give cpu something to do |
| 15:42 |
RealBadAngel |
and please dont laugh anybody when i complain bout a setting |
| 15:43 |
RealBadAngel |
"search completed with 313 matches" |
| 15:55 |
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| 17:35 |
kahrl |
any ideas/comments about the hosted weblate? |
| 17:35 |
kahrl |
(is there data from the old weblate that we would need to migrate?) |
| 17:38 |
sfan5 |
I don't think there is any |
| 17:39 |
kahrl |
OK good, should I simply submit the request then? |
| 17:39 |
sfan5 |
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 18:01 |
ShadowNinja |
kahrl: Anything's better than nothing. But get the credentials for minetest-services and ask xyz if he has anything else that you should have. |
| 18:03 |
kahrl |
ShadowNinja: what's minetest-services? |
| 18:03 |
ShadowNinja |
I'm trying to implement mod security in a mostly compatible way. I'd like to use a whitelist for functions, but I can't fucure out gow to set the global environment. Any ideas? _G = new_env just changes the _G variable in the global environment. |
| 18:04 |
ShadowNinja |
kahrl: The GitHub account that weblate uses to push changes. |
| 18:04 |
kahrl |
hmm |
| 18:04 |
kahrl |
I thought the changes were pulled by github |
| 18:04 |
ShadowNinja |
figure out how* |
| 18:05 |
ShadowNinja |
kahrl: Nah, GitHub doesn't pull anything. You'll see the `Pushed by: minetest-services` under translation commits. |
| 18:06 |
ShadowNinja |
(Or commited by, or whatever) |
| 18:06 |
ShadowNinja |
kahrl: Any idea how to replace the global environment with an empty table in Lua 5.1? |
| 18:07 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: but...but... Minetest Services is a building on my Creative server :P |
| 18:08 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: Sorry, we're going to have to make you change the name, and we'll need damages for the trademark infringement. ;-) |
| 18:09 |
VanessaE |
you fucker. :) |
| 18:09 |
VanessaE |
I claim prior art! ;) |
| 18:09 |
VanessaE |
(anyway your plan sounds good. I know sapier will approve) |
| 18:10 |
ShadowNinja |
I checked sapier's old security commit, but he used a blacklist for that. |
| 18:11 |
Krock |
Offtopic: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1605 |
| 18:12 |
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| 18:20 |
kahrl |
ShadowNinja: I asked xyz, he said we can simply start from scratch, there's no data we need |
| 18:21 |
kahrl |
and that I could ask him for the minetest-services password if we do need it |
| 18:21 |
ShadowNinja |
kahrl: Alright. Any idea about the global environment thing? |
| 18:21 |
kahrl |
not really |
| 18:21 |
ShadowNinja |
:-| |
| 18:22 |
kahrl |
wouldn't you have to restrict access to a lot of things, e.g. metatables? |
| 18:22 |
nore |
ShadowNinja: have you read http://lua-users.org/wiki/SandBoxes ? |
| 18:22 |
ShadowNinja |
nore: Yep. |
| 18:23 |
ShadowNinja |
kahrl: No, almost entirely just file access functions. Things like getmetatable are only danjerous in Lua sandboxes, not C sandboxes. |
| 18:24 |
ShadowNinja |
sapier's old commit blocked a lot of things that were O.K., so it broke a lot of mods. |
| 18:25 |
nore |
where are the problems? (only io functions?) |
| 18:25 |
ShadowNinja |
My changes should only break mods that use os.execute, io.popen, or io.open on paths outside path_user/share. |
| 18:26 |
nore |
does it prevent problems with dofile too? |
| 18:27 |
ShadowNinja |
nore: These are redirected and checked: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/8261846/ A few others, like execute and popen can't really sanitize their input. |
| 18:27 |
kahrl |
couldn't someone use io.open to write a bash/batch script into path_user and then execute it? |
| 18:27 |
kahrl |
ah |
| 18:27 |
ShadowNinja |
kahrl: Not without os.execute or similar. |
| 18:27 |
kahrl |
yeah, I thought it was accessible with path checks |
| 18:29 |
kahrl |
ShadowNinja: so what is a "C sandbox"? |
| 18:29 |
ShadowNinja |
kahrl: I can't really tell what a call like that does without implementing a full sh/ash/bash/zsh/.../DOS/cmd processor. |
| 18:29 |
kahrl |
ShadowNinja: and without solving the halting problem :P |
| 18:30 |
ShadowNinja |
kahrl: A sandbox created from C. So setmetatable("", nil) doesn't affect C code. |
| 18:30 |
kahrl |
hmm, I see |
| 18:30 |
ShadowNinja |
kahrl: And we don't have to worry about crashes or lockups, because they aren't really a vulnerability. |
| 18:30 |
nore |
kahrl: you could check the file executed contains no dangerous instructions |
| 18:32 |
ShadowNinja |
nore: You can't predict what something will do unless you also parse the ELF/EXE code (which would be ridiculous). |
| 18:32 |
kahrl |
ShadowNinja: depends, if the crash is due to a segfault (not an exception) that could lead to arbitrary code execution |
| 18:32 |
nore |
ShadowNinja: if it runs a script, you can check the script |
| 18:32 |
ShadowNinja |
kahrl: How so? |
| 18:32 |
nore |
(of course, executables should be forbidden) |
| 18:33 |
ShadowNinja |
nore: A script can do nothing on it's own, it has to call executables. |
| 18:33 |
kahrl |
ShadowNinja: lua shouldn't be able to segfault, but if it can that might because one of our API functions can be used to write arbitrary data to arbitrary addresses |
| 18:34 |
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| 18:34 |
nore |
but some executables can be trusted |
| 18:34 |
kahrl |
that might be* |
| 18:34 |
ShadowNinja |
os.date - UNSAFE - This can crash on some platforms (undocumented). For example, os.date'%v'. It is reported that this will be fixed in 5.2 or 5.1.3 |
| 18:34 |
nore |
(although doing things like changing $PATH might be a problem...) |
| 18:35 |
ShadowNinja |
^ That shouldn't allow writing to arbitrary adresses. |
| 18:35 |
kahrl |
dunno, I haven't seen the os.date code |
| 18:35 |
kahrl |
it it's buggy like that, it might have buffer overflows as well |
| 18:36 |
ShadowNinja |
I think that bug was because it passes it directly to strftime and %v didn't exist on all platforms. |
| 18:37 |
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| 18:38 |
kahrl |
wat |
| 18:38 |
kahrl |
the "Additional message" field at hosted weblate is required |
| 18:38 |
sfan5 |
why do we need a sandbox again? |
| 18:39 |
sfan5 |
also many mods do io.open on the world dir or even the mod dir |
| 18:39 |
sfan5 |
s/on/in/ |
| 18:39 |
VanessaE |
moretrees does this to check for/create its config file. |
| 18:40 |
sfan5 |
IMO we don't need sandboxes because they can be broken anyway |
| 18:40 |
kahrl |
OK, my additional message " " got accepted |
| 18:40 |
ShadowNinja |
http://sprunge.us/GQif?diff |
| 18:41 |
ShadowNinja |
Anything under porting::path_user that isn't called minetest.conf is allowed. |
| 18:42 |
sfan5 |
what about the world dir. and the mod dir. ? |
| 18:42 |
ShadowNinja |
I suppose you could overwrite the executable in a RUN_IN_PLACE build though. |
| 18:42 |
sfan5 |
"Bytecode prohibited when mod security is enabled." |
| 18:42 |
sfan5 |
does that have any reason? |
| 18:42 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: World dir is under user. |
| 18:42 |
sfan5 |
ShadowNinja: no |
| 18:42 |
sfan5 |
world dir is not guaranteed to be anywhere |
| 18:43 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: Yes, bytecode can do just about whatever it wants, including writing to arbritrary addresses. |
| 18:43 |
sfan5 |
./minetestserver --world /tmp/this_is/not_path_user |
| 18:43 |
sfan5 |
are you sure |
| 18:43 |
sfan5 |
? |
| 18:43 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: Hmmm, O.K. If you like I can find you an email on a mailing list saying as much. |
| 18:43 |
sfan5 |
please do |
| 18:44 |
ShadowNinja |
http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2010-08/msg00487.html |
| 18:44 |
ShadowNinja |
Linked from the LuaSandboxing page. |
| 18:45 |
sfan5 |
does that still work? |
| 18:45 |
sfan5 |
and we don't need to protect the user from themselves |
| 18:45 |
ShadowNinja |
May just be 5.2, but I'm not going to depend on Lua 5.1 and LuaJIT being safe and us never using 5.2. |
| 18:46 |
sfan5 |
if you don't want the risk of anything not being safe don't execute any code |
| 18:46 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: This protects the user from malicious mods that load("<malicious bytecode>")() |
| 18:46 |
sfan5 |
thats not an argument |
| 18:46 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: Wut? |
| 18:46 |
sfan5 |
the user is (should) be aware that mods can do what they want |
| 18:47 |
sfan5 |
this protects user from attack scenario A is not an argument against that |
| 18:47 |
VanessaE |
does the average Joe "Minetest User" Sixpack even look at the mod's code? |
| 18:47 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: The whole point of this security commit is to prevent that. |
| 18:47 |
VanessaE |
ergo, does it matter if the malicious code is bytecode or not? |
| 18:47 |
sfan5 |
possibly not |
| 18:47 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: The difference is that Lua text code can't get around my protections. |
| 18:48 |
sfan5 |
ShadowNinja: don't complain if 50% of mod authors later say to do "security = false" |
| 18:48 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: true enough, until someone finds some obscure exploit you didn't think of |
| 18:48 |
sfan5 |
also it should be renamed to "mod_security" |
| 18:49 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: Lua is sandboxed by quite a lot of people, it lends itself well to that, as opposed to, say, Python. |
| 18:49 |
VanessaE |
I'll grant you that (and from what I've been led to believe, Python doesn't lend itself well to ANYthing, except Portage :P ) |
| 18:50 |
VanessaE |
I'm more concerned with the performance and convenience impact on users and modders, respectively. |
| 18:50 |
sfan5 |
^ |
| 18:51 |
kahrl |
I sometimes wish portage was written in C++, not python. Dependency calculations can take minutes </offtopic> |
| 18:51 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: Performance should be the same except for things like io.open(), which are slow anyway and will be a few microseconds slower at most. |
| 18:51 |
sfan5 |
ShadowNinja: how about the mods that have 1 file for every player? |
| 18:51 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: They'll remain badly designed. |
| 18:52 |
sfan5 |
ShadowNinja: does "require" still work? |
| 18:52 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: This won't slow them down perceptively, unless they load every single player file on start. |
| 18:52 |
VanessaE |
sfan5: they can switch to using the datastorage mod or suffer. but they'd have done that anyway :P |
| 18:53 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: Nope, that can load C modules. I could wrap it, but I think the only mod that uses it is the IRC mod, and it uses it for loading a C module. |
| 18:53 |
sfan5 |
not only the irc mod |
| 18:53 |
sfan5 |
my "nm" mod too |
| 18:53 |
sfan5 |
because bitops in lua are horribly slow |
| 18:54 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: For C code? |
| 18:54 |
sfan5 |
basically yes |
| 18:54 |
sfan5 |
bit/bit32 |
| 18:54 |
nore |
sfan5, with JIT bitops are faster in lua than using bit32 |
| 18:54 |
ShadowNinja |
nore's computer mod too, but that's also C code. |
| 18:54 |
nore |
that's why implemented a pure lua version of it |
| 18:55 |
sfan5 |
possible |
| 18:55 |
sfan5 |
but I can't assume that JIT is used |
| 18:55 |
ShadowNinja |
Lua 5.3 has real bitwise operators, but I'm having trouble getting even 5.2 through. |
| 18:55 |
ShadowNinja |
(Oh, and 64-bit integers) |
| 18:55 |
sfan5 |
ShadowNinja: what if I do minetest.setting_setbool("security", "false") ? |
| 18:55 |
VanessaE |
why aren't we just bundling JIT then? |
| 18:55 |
VanessaE |
it runs everywhere minetest does |
| 18:56 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: I haven't patched that yet, but it won't be effective until the next restart. |
| 18:56 |
sfan5 |
does it run on GNU hurd? |
| 18:56 |
sfan5 |
ShadowNinja: thats irrevelant for malicious mods |
| 18:56 |
VanessaE |
does minetest? :) |
| 18:56 |
sfan5 |
yes |
| 18:56 |
sfan5 |
debian has minetest for i386-hurd |
| 18:56 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: It's stuck on Lua 5.1+some 5.2. |
| 18:58 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: Apparently some companies use LuaJIT and depend on Lua 5.1 features and can't change the 1% of code that they's have to change to fix incompatabilities. |
| 18:58 |
sfan5 |
VanessaE: according to the debian package luajit doesn't run on alpha, arm64, hppa, hurd-i386, kfreebsd-amd64, m68k, mipsel, ppc94el, s390x, sparc |
| 18:58 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: which you and I know is utter bull. |
| 18:59 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: Yep. |
| 18:59 |
sfan5 |
especially some servers use freebsd amd64 |
| 18:59 |
VanessaE |
*sigh* |
| 19:00 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: The main missing Lua 5.2 feature is _ENV, and it takes about 5 lines of code to add it, and I'm pretty sure it's compatible. |
| 19:01 |
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| 19:01 |
sfan5 |
ShadowNinja: where's the "minetest" table in static const char * whitelist[] ? |
| 19:01 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: It's called "core". Builtin aliases it. |
| 19:01 |
sfan5 |
builtin is in the sandbox too? |
| 19:02 |
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| 19:02 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: Yep, since I can allow a lot of things it shouldn't need any protected features. |
| 19:03 |
sfan5 |
so why do we need to protect the user from themselves again? |
| 19:03 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: ATM that patch just causes a Lua stack overflow, because _G = new_env just sets _G in the global environment. |
| 19:03 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: We don't? |
| 19:03 |
sfan5 |
why do you want to add that patch then? |
| 19:05 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: It protect usesr from malicious mod makers. And eventually from malicious server owners/mod makers when client-side lLua is added. |
| 19:05 |
ShadowNinja |
users* Lua* |
| 19:06 |
sfan5 |
didn't you just say we don't need to protect the user from themselves? |
| 19:06 |
sfan5 |
and client-side lua will be sandboxed anyway |
| 19:06 |
sfan5 |
client-side lua is still far away too |
| 19:08 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: Users do use mods written by people other than themselves... And how are you going to read all of the code of a mod like Technic, homedecor, or mobf? |
| 19:09 |
sfan5 |
protect the users from themselves downloading and installing mods |
| 19:09 |
sfan5 |
it's not like you need to download them from shady.website12345.com.cx instead of the forum |
| 19:10 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: And you can't put a malicious mod on the forum? |
| 19:10 |
sfan5 |
you can |
| 19:11 |
sfan5 |
but it's more likely to be detected there |
| 19:11 |
ShadowNinja |
sfan5: After it's already done it's damage? |
| 19:11 |
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| 19:12 |
sfan5 |
yeah |
| 19:12 |
ShadowNinja |
... |
| 19:35 |
* ShadowNinja |
tries to get it to work by using Lua internals... |
| 19:56 |
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| 19:58 |
CraigyDavi`` |
Reported by someone on my server...I haven't actually tested myself: They say that sometimes spamming the creative mode button and then joining a server enables them to dig like in creative on that server. This is on the android version. |
| 19:59 |
iqualfragile |
CraigyDavi``: im not too sure, but i think the server does not check the dig speed |
| 20:02 |
iqualfragile |
is there some way to use rollback and rollback_check without time limit? |
| 20:04 |
sfan5 |
iqualfragile: server checks the dig speed |
| 20:04 |
iqualfragile |
oh, ok |
| 20:04 |
sfan5 |
CraigyDavi``: impossible, the client-side creative mode setting is not used |
| 20:05 |
iqualfragile |
what about if the server has anticheat disabled? |
| 20:05 |
sfan5 |
I don't think anticheat disabled that check |
| 20:05 |
sfan5 |
even if, the client-side setting is not used |
| 20:16 |
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ShadowNinja |
iqualfragile: Just use a huge time limit. |
| 21:10 |
ShadowNinja |
\o/ I got it to work with lua_pushthread and lua_setfenv. |
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| 21:15 |
iqualfragile |
ShadowNinja: multithreading? |
| 21:15 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: care to elaborate on what "it" is? |
| 21:15 |
ShadowNinja |
My mod security system. |
| 21:16 |
iqualfragile |
aww, hoped for multithreading |
| 21:16 |
ShadowNinja |
iqualfragile: The Async API doesn't use this yet, neither does the menu. |
| 21:16 |
VanessaE |
a |
| 21:16 |
VanessaE |
ah |
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