Minetest logo

IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-08-28

| Channels | #minetest-dev index | Today | | Google Search | Plaintext

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 Cylus I don't want to be the cause of any new engine hackery. If someone else does that, it's not my fault and not my problem.
00:01 VanessaE well if done right, it wouldn't be what one could rightfully call "hackery"
00:01 VanessaE lava and fire DO need to propagate the responsible party
00:01 VanessaE (water too)
00:01 Cylus What about a new node property? <node def>.not_removable_by_nonplayers = true? We'd need a better property name, but you get the idea.
00:02 VanessaE <def>.nonplayer_diggable = false (defaults to nil = true)
00:02 Cylus What about lava flow caused by lava spawning with air under it? It could light TNT as well. Geting liquids to keep this data doesn't fix the whole issue.
00:03 VanessaE it doesn't fix the entire issue no, but if lava can set something else alight, then that something must surely be able to pick up the player info from that light-up event
00:04 VanessaE it's like setting up a lava flow that, 50 nodes down a hill sets a forest on fire, which sets off a line of gunpowder that sets off TNT
00:04 Cylus Also, the player reference thing. Even if the liquid stores the player name, it would also need to store the player reference across restarts.
00:04 VanessaE the player who dumped that lava gets propagated to every lava, fire, and burning gunpowder node as each one moves/is set alight.
00:05 Cylus That sounds like a good start.
00:06 VanessaE and if the lava has no player info, it's either old lava or it's naturally spawned, in which case defer to the person who placed the gunpowder or TNT when it gets lit by that lava, or the person who struck it with a torch if that event comes first
00:06 Cylus There's still the case of mapgen-spawned everything: both the explosive and the igniter are placed by mapgen, posibly by a mod. Who knows what people will code, we need to not cause crashes for no reason.
00:06 VanessaE see above :)
00:06 Cylus No information. Mapgen placed the lava and the TNT.
00:07 VanessaE that's why the "responsibility" has to be propagated inside the engine, where a mod can't touch it.
00:07 VanessaE mapgen-placed lava and TNT?  no player responsibility, therefore no protection will help.
00:07 VanessaE just blow it up and disregard any complaints.
00:07 Cylus Okay, got it. That should work well then.
00:07 kahrl what if someone explodes TNT which explodes some nodes which causes some lava to reflow which sets off a forest fire which ignites gunpowder which sets off TNT?
00:07 blaise why is tnt being generated if it's a man made item?
00:08 VanessaE kahrl: same deal.  responsibility follows the fire.
00:08 VanessaE kahrl: in other words, if it can explode or burn, a responsibility key needs to follow it as it moves/burns
00:08 Cylus blaise: Because some people add weird mods to spawn weird things. We can't let that crash the game just because we don't expect it.
00:08 kahrl VanessaE: where is the responsibility propagated when TNT removes nodes? (which then causes the second lava to reflow)
00:09 blaise indeed.
00:09 VanessaE kahrl: propagate it into the lava that filled the empty spaces.
00:09 VanessaE e.g. into the air that was created.
00:09 VanessaE if you can't do that, well, I guess that's one corner case that this idea can't protect against
00:09 kahrl that's some heavy air :P
00:10 Cylus So the first step is set up a C++ countability handler. Is that about right, VanessaE?
00:10 kahrl but anyway, I'm not sure the node metadata system can handle that much data per mapblock
00:10 kahrl and it isn't designed for that
00:10 VanessaE kahrl: it's not designed for it, but it has to happen if something like TNT is ever going to have any future on multiplayer servers.
00:11 VanessaE kahrl: besides, all you really need to send along with the node is a player name, not the whole object - the object could be merely referenced by name once somewhere in the mapblock
00:11 blaise VanessaE: do we have to worry about explosive decompression yet?
00:11 VanessaE blaise: eh, I doubt it :P
00:11 kahrl why not simply prevent TNT from blowing up protected nodes at all?
00:12 VanessaE kahrl: because <nodedef>.can_dig needs a player object.
00:12 VanessaE and protection needs a player name
00:12 VanessaE and if you can't blow up your own stuff...you have a problem
00:13 kahrl I haven't read the whole discussion, but why can't those functions be changed?
00:13 VanessaE which functions?
00:13 VanessaE you mean can_dig et al?
00:13 kahrl yeah
00:14 VanessaE [08-27 19:38] <Cylus> Wait, no, I was right. Because <node def>.can_dig() is defined by the node, old mods might not expect strings, but new mods might pass them in anyway.
00:14 Cylus Also as PilzAdam said, <node def>.can_dig() may be set to always return true. You can't rely on it's existence to mean there is a chance the node can't be dug.
00:14 VanessaE (where "string" might be a plain old player name, my idea from earlier)
00:14 Cylus Right.
00:14 kahrl eh, so fix those old mods?
00:14 VanessaE kahrl: we don't have the manpower to do that.
00:15 kahrl are there really that many mods that use can_dig? and is that usually more than a one-liner?
00:15 Cylus kahrl: I'd love to say that, but that's the "break backwards compatibility" idea stated earlier that won't fly.
00:15 VanessaE kahrl: every mod that has a locked something or other in it yeah
00:15 NakedFury joined #minetest-dev
00:16 VanessaE no idea how much code it would take to fix.  maybe a couple of lines apiece, but the problem is the sheer number of nodes and getting new versions of said mods into the server owners' hands
00:16 VanessaE kahrl: even getting mods fixed where the author is here, active, and willing to accept updates can sometimes be a challenge.
00:16 kahrl but you should be aware that our liquid update is not the fastest in the world, to say the least
00:17 kahrl can you imagine it checking the metadata of each node?
00:17 VanessaE kahrl: that's the understatement of the decade ;)
00:17 VanessaE besides, you already have to read the node from the map to find out whether you can spread it further, don't you?
00:18 Cylus Why is TNT even in the game if it's not production-ready, anyway?
00:18 VanessaE (in the case of say, a single water source on flat ground)
00:18 kahrl yeah, but that's constant access time (once you read the mapblock)
00:18 kahrl an index into an array
00:18 VanessaE (insert spherical, frictionless object in a vacuum example here)
00:18 VanessaE how much extra data would it take to add that property to a water/lava node?
00:19 VanessaE Cylus: I've been wondering the same - especially since it wasn't even ShadowNinja's much faster version to begin with
00:19 kahrl 20 bytes, unless we introduce numeric player IDs
00:19 kahrl and you would have to add that to every node, not only liquid nodes
00:19 VanessaE kahrl: so 24 bytes versus 4.  No way to flag a node as "contains extra data that isn't metadata" ?
00:20 kahrl nope
00:20 VanessaE and if it does hold metadata?
00:20 kahrl that would ruin the entire "index into an array" thing
00:20 kahrl well, that could be done, but you still need to lookup the metadata
00:20 VanessaE well sure
00:21 VanessaE but for the sake of argument, how much data would it take?
00:21 kahrl a "has metadata" flag? 1 bit
00:21 VanessaE 20 bytes for the player, 4 for the node def, and some overhead for the metadata container?
00:22 VanessaE I mean in the case of the map format we use now
00:22 VanessaE rather than hypothetically
00:22 VanessaE if I just randomly stored a field "player" with a value "kahrl" let's say
00:23 kahrl oh, I don't remember all the details of the serialization format
00:23 VanessaE a couple dozen bytes per node, I suppose?
00:24 kahrl we could even assume, for the sake of argument, that storage size is not the problem
00:24 kahrl the problem is access time during liquid update
00:24 VanessaE yeah
00:24 VanessaE but these are accesses that should be on the order of microseconds at most
00:25 VanessaE so I wonder if we're worrying about the wrong part of the problem?
00:25 kahrl well
00:25 kahrl one access might be like that
00:25 kahrl now imagine someone pouring out a water bucket on top of a hill
00:26 VanessaE that's an operation that's already gonna soak up a ton of CPU without reading meta
00:26 kahrl and you want to make it take 10-100x as much time?
00:27 VanessaE well I was thinking that's the sort of operation that's sitting in the milliseconds-per-node range, from my own experience.  that's why I figured a few tens of microseconds per node wouldn't even matter here.
00:28 kahrl well, if someone implements it, I'd be glad to test
00:29 VanessaE with something like water, accountability isn't too critical, but with lava is kinda is :)
00:35 ImQ009 joined #minetest-dev
00:36 kahrl btw, didn't someone at some point write some code to make liquids not spread on unloaded blocks
00:37 kahrl who was that?
00:37 Cylus Wow, that would be a nice feature.
00:42 darkrose joined #minetest-dev
00:43 VanessaE kahrl: possibly so, but I don't remember seeing that
00:52 Miner_48er joined #minetest-dev
01:04 blaise some random dude dumped a bucket of lava out in his house which was elevated pretty high
01:04 blaise then tried to extinguish it with a bucket of water
01:04 blaise my server didn't actually crash, but it sure did slow stuff down for a bit
01:05 VanessaE I yelled quite loudly when lava cooling was added to the game
01:06 VanessaE and PA responded by adding functions i could hook into the default ABM with.  frankly I'd rather it be ripped out entirely
01:07 cg72 lol
01:08 VanessaE I mean for G*d sakes the default cooling ABM has chance 1, interval 1
01:08 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/b​lob/master/mods/default/functions.lua#L181
01:21 * VanessaE tunes it a bit in dreambuilder.
01:23 cg72 VanessaE i got that long ago 3sec and 8 chance
01:23 cg72 works greast
01:23 VanessaE 5 and 15 here.
01:23 cg72 lol
01:23 cg72 vanessa see my trees?
01:23 VanessaE which trees?
01:27 cg72 http://i.imgur.com/o68SYqc.png
01:28 VanessaE nice
01:29 cg72 they are taller and rounded but apple trees are short lol
01:30 VanessaE cool
01:30 VanessaE ok, bbl.
01:30 VanessaE cooking.
01:30 cg72 i want some
01:48 VanessaE back
01:49 * VanessaE offers cg72 a hamburger.
01:49 cg72 id be happy sitting in a corner crying my self to death rn thanks :\
02:45 blaise ._.
03:03 CraigyDavi`` joined #minetest-dev
03:04 cg72 left #minetest-dev
05:10 CraigyDavi joined #minetest-dev
05:45 Hunterz joined #minetest-dev
06:13 Anchakor_ joined #minetest-dev
06:14 alexxss joined #minetest-dev
06:30 Jordach joined #minetest-dev
06:36 Zeno` joined #minetest-dev
07:20 Zeno` Would anybody care to review: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1583
07:23 Zeno` I tried to squash :(
07:23 Zeno` and it sort of is
07:43 jin_xi joined #minetest-dev
08:03 casimir joined #minetest-dev
08:50 Megaf joined #minetest-dev
08:55 Megaf Hi all
08:56 Megaf I got info on the client crash when loging in a server, https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/issues/1512#issuecomment-53689806
08:56 Megaf ^ Zeno` ^ ShadowNinja
09:05 Megaf and by the way, any work done on multithreading?
09:14 CaIinou joined #minetest-dev
09:16 Amaz joined #minetest-dev
09:23 proller joined #minetest-dev
09:25 ImQ009 joined #minetest-dev
10:32 jp_ joined #minetest-dev
11:07 Amaz joined #minetest-dev
11:27 jp_ joined #minetest-dev
12:07 cg72 joined #minetest-dev
12:38 rubenwardy joined #minetest-dev
12:45 kahrl joined #minetest-dev
12:56 jp_ left #minetest-dev
12:58 casimir joined #minetest-dev
13:05 jin_xi joined #minetest-dev
13:24 Amaz joined #minetest-dev
14:16 Cylus joined #minetest-dev
14:18 hmmmm joined #minetest-dev
14:20 VanessaE joined #minetest-dev
14:28 Hunterz joined #minetest-dev
14:28 Hunterz left #minetest-dev
14:51 Jordach joined #minetest-dev
14:51 92AAAP61M joined #minetest-dev
14:51 Jordach joined #minetest-dev
15:01 Calinou joined #minetest-dev
15:05 PilzAdam joined #minetest-dev
15:18 NakedFury joined #minetest-dev
15:19 PilzAdam is there any reason to not revert https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/7993696fc4b59354974059e1f8d6b3063d316411 ?
15:19 PilzAdam VanessaE?
15:19 VanessaE yeah, it's broken for me too
15:20 VanessaE wait for sapier though, maybe he meant to rename the image file also.
15:21 PilzAdam https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/issues/1564#issuecomment-53729815 hmmmm.... seems like debian needs it?
15:22 PilzAdam is there any documentation on the format?
15:31 cg72 joined #minetest-dev
15:32 cg72 is there any reason i cant set all the main menus background as 1 image??? i have "background.png" in the textures/base/pack
15:37 cg72 well more code rewriting lol
15:44 proller joined #minetest-dev
15:47 cg72 joined #minetest-dev
16:17 zat joined #minetest-dev
16:24 OldCoder joined #minetest-dev
16:29 ShadowNinja Thoughts on https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1439 or is it good to merge?
16:30 ShadowNinja PilzAdam: A proper fix might be `mv minetest-icon.* minetest.\1`
16:30 ShadowNinja That might work on all distros.
16:43 jp joined #minetest-dev
16:44 jp left #minetest-dev
16:44 cg72 /home/cg72/.minetest/textures/base/pack/  isnt a dir so why does the check ~= nil return true?
16:47 VanessaE ShadowNinja: 1439 is a very good idea indeed, though there's a conundrum to it..
16:48 VanessaE it's natural to use Q and E to switch items (as that's how I always did it in FPS's) but dammit, those controls are already bound to "drop" and "descend/use" :)
16:48 cg72 the numbers 1-10 select the box also
16:49 cg72 1= first item 8= last
16:50 VanessaE yep.
16:50 cg72 thats the fastest way why add mor keys to press on accident?
16:58 VanessaE bbl
17:13 cg72 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1584
17:13 cg72 now the minetest header is there in all tabe when no texturepack is there
17:27 Hunterz joined #minetest-dev
17:46 Megaf joined #minetest-dev
17:48 sapier joined #minetest-dev
17:50 khonkhortisan joined #minetest-dev
17:51 sapier Well ShadowNinja if ppl tell me it's broken I fix it, if they lie to me I can't do anything about that, except of telling sorry and next time not merging things from ppl lieing to me ;-)
17:53 OldCoder joined #minetest-dev
18:53 nore joined #minetest-dev
19:04 proller joined #minetest-dev
19:05 troller joined #minetest-dev
19:19 nore joined #minetest-dev
19:29 Jordach joined #minetest-dev
20:07 Miner_48er joined #minetest-dev
20:31 alexxs joined #minetest-dev
20:35 nore joined #minetest-dev
20:45 RealBadAngel sapier, here?
20:47 sapier yes RealBadAngel
20:47 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/5hGuOUq.png
20:47 RealBadAngel you know whats that?
20:47 sapier looks like some transparency issue
20:48 RealBadAngel no, its a feature you have added to main menu lately
20:48 sapier oh burningvideo :-)
20:48 RealBadAngel actually its software
20:48 sapier software? how did you get it run?
20:48 RealBadAngel but burningsvideo isnt much better
20:49 sapier I know those drivers are quite limited
20:49 RealBadAngel just selected it and run the game
20:49 RealBadAngel point is, those drivers should not be aviable at all
20:49 RealBadAngel theyre not able even to display main menu correctly
20:49 sapier and? bugs like those are partial our fault too
20:50 RealBadAngel unusable drivers should not be selectable at all
20:50 sapier who are we telling users what driver to use? they're different for macos windows android whatever. do you wanna maintain the list?
20:50 sapier they are not unusable
20:50 RealBadAngel no big deal, 3 drivers
20:51 sapier nope
20:51 sapier it's already 6 drivers by now
20:51 RealBadAngel i mean opengl, d3d and android
20:51 sapier directx8 directx9 opengl ogles2 ogles3 software burningvideo (don't know how macos is called, maybe opengl too)
20:52 sapier and by the way some of those issues are result of minetest not doing proper checks too
20:53 sapier forgot ogles
20:53 kahrl a driver with buggy frustum clipping is minetest's fault?
20:53 sapier nope but e.g. the invalid item images
20:53 RealBadAngel i dont like this menu option at all
20:54 sapier for what reason? because it shows how incomplete we do feature checking prior using them?
20:55 sapier if I did know about those issues beeing visible in other drivers too I would've done some of the android hacks more generic
20:55 RealBadAngel first of all, software and burningsvideo drivers have to be removed from list of aviable ones
20:56 RealBadAngel they will never be usable
20:56 sapier no they haven't because it's just adding additional maintenance
20:56 sapier the function provides a list of drivers irrlicht provides
20:57 sapier case irrlicht fixes those issues they will work, I don't even know if they may work better e.g. on windows or macos
20:57 RealBadAngel are you kidding?
20:57 sapier noone is forced to choose those drivers
20:58 RealBadAngel its a game, users will do that
20:58 RealBadAngel and then you will have to complain why the game is fucked up like that
20:58 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/5hGuOUq.png
20:58 sapier if you don't like the dropdown remove it but don't add a crazy "I don't like something therefore I filter some wrong thing" feature to a generic driver function
20:59 troller software usable but too slow
20:59 sapier and please do hardcode the setting too as users always could choose those drivers
20:59 RealBadAngel troller, usable? rotfl
21:00 iqualfragile joined #minetest-dev
21:00 sapier imho we should first fix all issues we can fix and there are a lot ... then we can decide if it's still necessary to remove the dropdown
21:00 RealBadAngel dancing geometry, jumping planes 1-2fps
21:00 RealBadAngel youre drunk guys?
21:00 troller buy faster PC
21:00 sapier especially on android for example choosing between ogles ogles2 and (soon ogles3) will have a major impact and we can't decide this on our own
21:01 kahrl I get 30 FPS with software
21:01 sapier because we just don't know what's faster on this particular device
21:01 sapier I get exactly 0 fps because it crashes immediatly
21:01 sapier irrlicht 1.7
21:02 sapier case you have 1.8 kahrl that could be proove irrlicht guys improve it too
21:02 troller why not irrlicht 1.1
21:02 kahrl yeah, 1.8
21:02 sapier because there's no supportde distribution using irrlicht 1.1 troll ;-)
21:03 sapier for burningvideo transparency works even on 1.7
21:05 sapier btw folllowing logic "remove everything that may fuck up graphic" we'd have to remove shaders too, because there's no way to decide which opengl cards support them or not
21:05 sapier well unless maintaining a database of course
21:07 sapier but still this is only my opinion so if you guys don't like it feel free to remove it ... but then I will always bug you for providing a equal good mechanism for android users ;-P
21:08 sapier and no I will not maintain a driver list specific for each device I'm already annoyed about the graphics chip ist for android hacks
21:09 Evolykane joined #minetest-dev
21:13 kahrl I agree that filtering in get_video_drivers is wrong, but why not filter in tab_settings.lua?
21:14 sapier and then add same hack which is there for android right now but for all supported architectures? It just because of settings menu is to small. It's supposed to get subtabs soon then this hack could be removed.
21:15 kahrl which hack?
21:15 sapier You'd have to add at least Windows, Android, Linux/Macos ... and I'd not even be sure this is correct because there might me android devices out there supporting full opengl soon
21:15 sapier there's a check for ANDROID somewhere
21:16 kahrl I'm only talking about removing software and burningsvideo from the dropdown
21:16 kahrl which can be done platform-independent
21:16 sapier and why?
21:16 kahrl because what RBA said
21:17 sapier because it's broken for him? seems to work way better for others?
21:17 kahrl if anyone really wants to use them, there's still a happy minetest.conf waiting to be edited
21:17 sapier I still don't understand why removing somthing because of beeing broken for someone
21:17 kahrl who is software working well for?
21:17 sapier someone without a 3d graphics card maybe? ;-)
21:18 sapier e.g. a vm
21:18 kahrl those should still have mesa software opengl
21:18 sapier mesa on windows?
21:18 kahrl idk about windows
21:18 kahrl who runs games in a windows vm anyway?
21:19 sapier ppl testing it for example
21:19 kahrl they can use minetest.conf
21:19 sapier yes but following this logic we can remove the whole settings tab, everyone can use minetest.conf
21:20 sapier and I guess trying to fix those issues will find some serious bugs we still have in minetest too
21:20 kahrl the point is to reduce support effort
21:21 kahrl so we don't have people opening issues when minetest doesn't start anymore, after they have chosen a driver they know nothing about
21:21 sapier to me it feels like "running away from bugs"
21:21 kahrl bugs that would be closed as wontfix because they are irrlicht bugs
21:22 sapier at least that issue could be fixed
21:22 sapier we could make minetest switch to default driver on error
21:22 sapier but that'd require another maintained list
21:22 kahrl not really, we already have a default driver
21:23 kahrl it's opengl
21:23 sapier I don't think so, burningsvideo for example has issues with non npot2 textures, something some android doesn't handle correct too
21:23 sapier well then you're gonna break android
21:23 sapier switching to opengl will result on permanent error there
21:24 sapier unless you have android x86 where even now may already be opengl graphics chips
21:24 kahrl well then use those hacks for android that already exist (don't they?)
21:24 * VanessaE is back.
21:24 sapier I want to get rid of them as soon as possible (or implement them in a more generic way) not make them standard
21:25 sapier well I could try what happens if I enable them for "burningsvideo" ... give me some minutes
21:30 RealBadAngel sapier, in case you havent noticed not working shaders do not make screen red any longer
21:31 RealBadAngel so not working shader just does nothing
21:32 sapier nice ... so we have about 2 years to fix the software rendering prior having to remove it? *smile*
21:35 RealBadAngel we shall focus on drivers we know that we will be using, not all exotic ones around there
21:35 RealBadAngel fact that irrlicht have some modes doesnt imply mt has to use them
21:35 sapier ok I don't have to look for the texture scaling issue in burningsvideo as it's already fixed in irrlicht 1.8 kahrl you should already have correct texture sizes there
21:35 sapier and you pretend to know what "we" use?
21:36 sapier I'd sometimes be glad about a working software renderer because some other applications already did grab all supported opengl instances
21:36 RealBadAngel we are makin a game, not another part of dexters laboratory
21:36 sapier don't know what nvidia did within their driver
21:36 RealBadAngel software and burning will never be useable by us
21:37 sapier 30 fps?
21:37 RealBadAngel software, well, may be useable
21:37 sapier some ppl having 3d cards have less
21:37 RealBadAngel to display fancy window with warning :P
21:37 kahrl 30 fps, but extremely ugly and nausea inducing
21:38 sapier software or burningsvideo?
21:38 kahrl software
21:38 RealBadAngel both are weird, in different ways
21:38 sapier try burningsvideo even irrlicht guys tell it's way more advanced
21:38 kahrl burningsvideo is better, but there's still terrible flicker all over the skybox and clouds
21:38 kahrl and it's 10 fps
21:39 kahrl well, and transparency doesn't seem to be working for me (on the apples and torches)
21:39 RealBadAngel instead of software or burning better to focus on proper d3d handling
21:39 sapier well I do care as much about d3d as you do about software so lets just remove that too ;-P
21:40 RealBadAngel at some point i will just translate shaders
21:40 sapier and no I'm not serious, I just wanted to show that a feature irrelevant for someone can be quite relevant for someone else
21:41 RealBadAngel still, having highly experimental, partially working features in main menu options is just asking for troubles imho
21:41 RealBadAngel howgh
21:41 sapier btw no the npot2 fix doesn't help for burningsvideo as it's implemented irrlicht as of 1.8 only
21:42 sapier we did have highly experimental partly working features in there for years ... while it's been yours you didn't have issues with it ;-)
21:43 sapier what about removing them for release builds only?
21:44 sapier a mechanism for hiding experimental settings could be helpfull for other things too so this would at least be something of more then single use
21:45 ImQ009 joined #minetest-dev
21:45 RealBadAngel so make experimental tab for them
21:46 RealBadAngel this will prevent messing up layout in tabs
21:46 sapier what's that gonna help? do you wanna tell windows users switching from d3d to opengl is experimental?
21:47 VanessaE tell them that Windows is experimental ;-)
21:47 sapier or android users from ogles to ogles2 (well right now ogles2 is really experimental, yet that branch evolves quite fast) not sure if it's still gonna be once we release next version
21:47 RealBadAngel lol
21:49 sapier imho driver selection should be there. if there's only one driver in it ok then noone can choose on that platform
21:49 sapier but it's gonna be linux and macos only
21:50 Calinou ?! only one driver on these OSes
21:50 Calinou Windows is where you can use both D3D and OpenGL
21:50 Calinou but D3D sucks
21:50 Calinou should be dropped from Minetest entirely
21:51 sapier you can even choose d3d8 and d3d9 there
21:51 sapier see next one not caring about d3d too ;-)
21:53 VanessaE don't offer drivers that can't possibly be used on a particular platform :)
21:54 VanessaE that much is a definite
21:54 sapier they can be used
21:54 VanessaE directX on linux?
21:54 sapier wine?
21:54 VanessaE directX ON LINUX
21:54 hmmmm you can use directx on linux
21:54 VanessaE as in linux HOST
21:54 VanessaE not guest
21:54 hmmmm gallium3d
21:54 VanessaE wat?
21:54 sapier last time I tried wine did run on linux
21:54 VanessaE wine is not linux, wine is wine
21:55 hmmmm sapier, what vanessae is saying is that minetest running on wine for all intents is minetest running on windows
21:55 sapier maybe you got too much wine vanessae ;-)
21:55 VanessaE I'm talking on the bare OD.,
21:55 VanessaE OS*
21:55 VanessaE hmmmm: exactly.
21:55 hmmmm but minetest compiled for a target like linux or freebsd on the other hand doesn't have d3d support necessarily
21:55 hmmmm although like i said, that may change sometime in the future !! :)
21:55 sapier hmmmm I know what she means but I didn't ever tell about providing d3d on linux too
21:56 sapier it wont happen anyway as the feature reads the supported driver list from irrlicht
21:56 hmmmm vanessae is saying that you should hide the option for d3d if compiled for linux
21:56 VanessaE sapier: I was merely providing an example, and indeed my build doesn't even offer windows-specific drivers anyway
21:57 VanessaE hmmmm: and people might put chevy engines in their fords ;)
21:57 VanessaE (oh wait, they do that :P )
21:57 hmmmm you can do that with enough welding
21:57 hmmmm --;
21:57 VanessaE lol
21:57 sapier hmmmm as I said I don't need to hide it as it's not told to be supported by irrlicht
21:57 hmmmm so it's an irrlicht problem
21:58 sapier if there would be shown direct3d on linux yes it'd be an irrlicht problem but at least for me it's not shown
21:58 VanessaE I just said it's not being shown for me, but that was just an *example*, jeez
21:58 VanessaE do not take it literally :P
21:59 sapier what this discussion is about irrlicht telling to support software and burningsvideo too ... those are most times way less perfect then opengl or even direct3d
21:59 sapier in worst case irrlicht is even wrong, for example on my pc software just crashes
21:59 VanessaE if those are pure software renderers, wouldn't they be identical from one platform to another?
22:00 sapier but on the other hand we couln't tell for sure some opengl driver doesn't crash on windows
22:01 sapier obviously not, that crash happening for me looks like a timing issue
22:02 VanessaE I meant the rendered result.
22:02 sapier result should be identical ... at least in theory
22:02 VanessaE then don't use them at all.
22:02 VanessaE by definition, they're broken
22:02 sapier if they did use memcpy or things like that there may be different implementataions resulting in different effects
22:03 sapier or different display colorspaces
22:03 EvergreenTree joined #minetest-dev
22:03 RealBadAngel sapier, that reminds me of an issue reported
22:03 VanessaE sapier: there has to be a threshold above which you decide "you know what, this is way too unpredictable to use"
22:03 RealBadAngel if you select not workin one you wont be able to change it back
22:04 sapier RealBadAngel: that's gonna happen if you select opengl on a broken opengl driver too
22:04 VanessaE (at least as far as what you present to an average Joe Sixpack)
22:04 RealBadAngel some1 already reported it in the channel
22:04 sapier same thing will happen if you start minetest with broken opengl driver
22:04 RealBadAngel so then use software as fallback
22:04 RealBadAngel only reasonable usage for it
22:05 sapier software should work on any platform even android so you could be right about that one yes
22:05 RealBadAngel but only for main menu
22:05 sapier unless there's a bug in it but that's normal risk
22:05 RealBadAngel not game in any case
22:05 sapier everyone can change it once it started
22:06 sapier using different engines for different parts by default will result in duplicating test cases/error cases for standard usecase
22:08 sapier what about same thing windows uses "popup safe mode" ;-)
22:08 VanessaE sapier: didn't I suggest that a week ago? :)
22:09 sapier "you did select software/burningsvideo these modes are not using hardware acceleration go to "settings"-tab and change it ... add a checkbox "don't bug me again" to this dialog so ppl can disable this message
22:09 sapier popup on starting minetest vanessae not on selecting it
22:10 sapier this way we could handle the fallback situation too
22:11 sapier first thing minetest will do is setting a flag in settings, that flag is reset once menu is started successfull. if it crashes due to driver error next time we will find that flag and can switch to ... hmm I'd suggest burningsvideo
22:12 sapier btw I've got 16 fps on burningsvideo and irrlicht 1.8 ... more then a lot of android devices with hardware rendering
22:17 sapier I think apple textures not beeing transparent our fault as the images in mainmenu are transparent
22:19 sapier lol
22:19 sapier disable shaders and you get full transparency
22:20 sapier RealBadAngel: didn't you tell shaders don't do anything if they're not supported? ;-)
22:24 RealBadAngel they shouldnt
22:24 RealBadAngel at least final color blend is removed from them
22:24 RealBadAngel and is done by the engine only
22:25 sapier well still disabling shaders on burningsvideo results in transparency beeing fine
22:25 RealBadAngel that maybe because irrlicht materials are combined
22:25 sapier possible
22:26 RealBadAngel i should add there a flag for success on compiling shaders, if false then not build new one material
22:26 sapier and the skybox flickering ... I'm not quite sure but skybox code looks to me like drawing all at same coordinates. In cases like that floating point rounding precision may cause them to intersect ... not sure if same thing couldn't happen on other drivers too
22:27 RealBadAngel shaders can fail because of many reasons, such flag is good idea
22:27 sapier do you compile through irrlicht or directly?
22:29 EvergreenTree joined #minetest-dev
22:31 sapier ok software rendering is still quite ugly in 1.8.1
22:32 RealBadAngel irrlicht compiles them
22:32 sapier hopefully they return a correct error code ;-)
22:32 sapier http://imgur.com/0CBST2S,T81hhkS
22:32 RealBadAngel they should
22:33 sapier burningsvideo and opengl are optically different but imho both are fine ... and at least to me even burningsvideo is playable ... and I've got a quite old machine
22:33 VanessaE sapier: ew, you use filtering with 16px mode? :)
22:33 sapier nope everything disablerd
22:33 VanessaE first image looks like tri- or bi-linear filtering
22:34 sapier first is burningsvideo guess they're scaling algorithm has same effect
22:35 sapier I wonder what happens if I try to use burningsvideo in 3d mode
22:36 sapier lol
22:37 VanessaE 3d as in shutter/LCD glasses? :)
22:37 sapier guess noone ever tried 3d mode on irrlicht 1.8
22:38 sapier I had to flip one of the images because irrlicht did flip it on copy ... seems they fixed that bug on 1.8 ... now the fixed image for 1.7 is flipped again ... looks like some ifdef to add
22:39 sapier nope 3d as in polarization glasses
22:42 VanessaE same diff
22:42 VanessaE polarized, anaglyph, shutter...whatever method you choose :)
22:43 sapier yet I don't know if shutter support works
22:43 kahrl haha that's trippy
22:43 RealBadAngel sapier, ok, such flag is a piece of cake, even i dont have to add any extra field for it, will just use current id system, shader_id = 0 will mean no shader for this material
22:43 sapier ok
22:54 sapier https://gist.github.com/sa​pier/c685006eb8a3864709a3 anyone against merging this?
22:56 sapier well as obviously noone uses that feature by now I'm gonna push it after having it tested myself ;-)
22:59 RealBadAngel interlaced mode? what for?
22:59 sapier those who use id know it ;-)
22:59 sapier oh wait ... noone uses it :-)
23:00 ^v joined #minetest-dev
23:01 RealBadAngel hehe
23:01 sapier well we do support almost all available stereomodes, but I guess stereo isn't that common by now
23:02 sapier real vr devices are missing by now :-)
23:02 sapier but I don't even think about providing a setting too choose the 3d mode as you'll complain about it breaking view again ;-)
23:03 sapier we support anaglyph/topbottom/sidebyside and interlaced
23:06 sapier so if someone has a 3d tv she/he will most likely find a mode to work on it
23:06 sapier 3d on burningsvideo :-) ... not very fluid :)
23:07 kahrl is the second screen in topbottom/sidebyside mode meant to not update its size when the window is resized?
23:08 sapier I don't think so
23:09 sapier funny I get 6 screens in sidebyside mode ... guess there's another bug in it
23:10 sapier wonder if it's some other thing "fixed" in irrlicht 1.8
23:10 kahrl same here, but only after I maximize the window after it starts small
23:11 sapier irrlicht 1.8?
23:12 kahrl yes
23:12 sapier ok I'm gonna check with irrlicht 1.7 ... I guess this is another ifdef irrlicht version issue
23:13 sapier our official version is irrlicht 1.8 right?
23:14 kahrl I don't know, is there an official version?
23:14 sapier that one on minetest.net ;-)
23:14 kahrl 1.8.1 I think
23:15 sapier so practically any 3d mode was broken and noone did notice ;-)
23:15 kahrl according to buildwin32.sh and buildwin64.sh
23:15 sapier maybe anaglyph did work
23:15 kahrl anaglyph seems fine
23:15 RealBadAngel im on 1.7 all the time
23:16 sapier nope sidebyside is broken on 1.7 too
23:16 sapier so at least there no ifdef is required
23:16 sapier I'm gonna fix it soon
23:19 sapier uarg ... silly bug
23:25 sapier grrr formspecs are broken on 3d mode too ... but that one is for tomorrow
23:26 Inocudom joined #minetest-dev
23:27 * VanessaE wonders where a formspec ends up in 3d mode :)
23:27 Inocudom This is a very serious bug that I fell victim too: https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=6&amp;t=10014
23:28 sapier does it happen on sqlite too?
23:29 Inocudom I encountered the issue on servers mostly.
23:29 Inocudom Even with client_unload_unused_data_timeout = 180 in my config file, it can still happen.
23:30 Inocudom How can I tell what map format a server is using? Which ones use sqlite?
23:31 sapier I'm not sure if I do understand the issue correctly
23:31 sapier those chunks are only missing on client?
23:31 VanessaE I'm confused too.
23:32 VanessaE wait.
23:32 Sokomine inocudom: if it's not your own, you can't tell. else: take a look in the world-folder. if a file map.sqlite is present -> sqlite3. if a map.db/ folder is present, then it's probably leveldb
23:32 sapier because I'm quite sure mapblocks are sent repeatedly
23:32 VanessaE Inocudom: got worldedit handy?
23:32 RealBadAngel sapier, btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1RzmQynCPA
23:32 VanessaE Inocudom:  //inspect and then punch at the "blank" area please
23:32 RealBadAngel ^^ toggling one bit and use special tiles instead of tiles
23:32 Inocudom It seems to be an issue where if I load too many chunks on a map during a play session, the game studders and temporarily freezes. Gets longer each time too.
23:32 VanessaE RealBadAngel: wait please, off topci
23:33 RealBadAngel yup, i know ;)
23:33 sapier https://gist.github.com/sa​pier/434731e2842881f4ad31 fix for broken window resizing
23:34 VanessaE Inocudom: please do  //inspect  and then punch at the "empty" area.  Is it CONTENT_IGNORE by chance?  Can you actually *point* at the blank spaces?   If you walk to the blank space, can you place e.g. a torch and then the land immediately adjacent to the torch appears?
23:34 Inocudom The missing chunks issue, as far as I know, is only in Freeminer, unless that too was encountered by some in Minetest.
23:35 sapier RealBadAngel: what exactly is this supposed to show?
23:35 Inocudom I can't walk into those blank spaces, and the map where I saw those empty spaces was a leveldb map in Freeminer. Mapgen v5 too, though that might not be relevant.
23:35 VanessaE mapgenv5?  VERY relevent.
23:35 VanessaE minetest does not have mapgen v5.
23:35 VanessaE only freeminer has that.
23:36 Inocudom Can't even point at anything in those spaces. They act like unloaded chunks/void areas.
23:36 RealBadAngel sapier, thats example usage of special_tiles and a single bit that toggles between tiles and special_tiles
23:36 VanessaE Inocudom: can you place a torch into the blank area?
23:36 sapier I'm not sure if this is a good example as I don't really see a usecase for it ;-) except of maybe fake blocks ;-)
23:37 Inocudom But the chunks not loading issue that I encountered in Freeminer is not the only issue. There is also the temporary freezing when I load too many chunks on a map during a play session.
23:37 sapier I'm pushing the 3d mode fix
23:37 RealBadAngel furnaces, machines, mesecon wires?
23:37 VanessaE sapier: furnaces, mesecons, anything with an "on" and "off" texture/node
23:37 RealBadAngel single def instead of inactive/active defs
23:37 sapier yes but those aren't changed directly by player?
23:37 VanessaE Inocudom: if this is mapgen version five, then it's not a minetest issue, as minetest doesn't have v5.
23:38 Inocudom The number of chunks required to do it is lower than what would normally cause bad_allocation. Again, client_unload_unused_data_timeout = 180 does not get rid of the issue.
23:38 VanessaE sapier: that's the point though - fewer node defs.  for larger mods, it can cut the numebr of nodes by dozens or even hundreds.
23:38 VanessaE number*
23:38 RealBadAngel in case of climbable mesecon wires its about 500 node defs
23:38 sapier well ... only if you don't care about stable clients till 0.4.11 is released
23:39 VanessaE sapier: wouldn't be the first time that's happened :P
23:39 sapier true VanessaE you really never care about stable versions ... but complain about broken dev ;-P
23:40 RealBadAngel sapier, we do already have full featured special_tiles here
23:40 RealBadAngel i made it same sized as regular tiles
23:40 sapier I know that's why I don't veto, yet those usecases you guys tell me sound like adding some sort of subnode definition
23:41 RealBadAngel not really
23:41 sapier effectively addin another dimension to our node definition mechanism
23:41 RealBadAngel yes
23:42 VanessaE sapier: I don't complain about broken dev unless it remains broken for a long time or in the face of code that's *right there waiting to merge* to fix bugs :)
23:42 sapier basicaly you could replace all nodes by a single one ... with special tiles for everything
23:42 RealBadAngel effecting in less complicated code, less nodedefs, faster switching
23:42 sapier and all mods using it have to check nodename AND subnodetype
23:42 RealBadAngel switch is done realtime, while drawing
23:42 RealBadAngel no they dont have to
23:42 sapier if ppl use it that way they have
23:42 RealBadAngel its a general feature
23:43 RealBadAngel aviable for all the drawtypes excluding liquids
23:43 sapier I'm brave and predict modders will use special tiles to implement completely different things and next time they will make they're mods do different things dependent on subnode type
23:44 sapier e.g. a node crop ... subtype wheat corn, pumpkin
23:44 RealBadAngel ofc, we cannot predict what modders will make with it
23:44 RealBadAngel abuse as usual ;)
23:45 RealBadAngel but keep in mind im modder too, i know why im adding this for
23:45 VanessaE well to be fair, sapier, if you were to use this feature for e.g. mesecons, you would, by definition have to do something different depending on the state of this special tiles setting - e.g. a wire being "off" isn't going to be propagating a signal to a receptor.
23:45 sapier you make it easy the way you show it to them ... result will be mods getting way more complicated as nodename isn't gonna be enough to know what's there
23:46 sapier I'm fair, I just tell this is not making code more simple but just shifts complexity to another location
23:46 sapier maybe even increases overall complexity
23:47 sapier as both, drawing code as well as each mod has to check the subtype to know what's going on
23:48 VanessaE sapier: but it also allows modders to cut down the total number of node definitions.  remember, we do have a (rather high) limit and the more we define, the longer the game takes to start.
23:48 VanessaE better to define 5000 with special tiles than 10000 without them
23:48 sapier yes you cut down number of node definitions at cost of size of each node definition ... so where's the actual benefit?
23:49 VanessaE startup time?  less resources used at the client?
23:49 sapier in worst case you'll have a couple of kb for a single node definition
23:49 sapier same thing has to be parsed
23:49 sapier it's not less it's just packaged different
23:50 sapier did anyone check what happens if a single node def doesn't fit into a packet?
23:50 sapier hopefully we don't care about it :)
23:51 sapier hmm we send mb of data so it's quite likey we wont ever hit that limit
23:51 VanessaE if a node ever hits 1MB in size, we have a much bigger problem to deal with :P
23:52 sapier still I don't see the real benefit except of reducing the count of nodes, at cost of mod complexity
23:53 VanessaE seems like `node.name == foo and node.param2 > 128`  is enough
23:53 VanessaE that's hardly what I'd call "complex"
23:53 VanessaE assuming RBA is still using the msb of param2
23:53 Sokomine may this new feature perhaps be useful for changes of dirt nodes and leaves through the seasons? the 4seasons mod was a lot of fun but also caused high load for a server
23:53 RealBadAngel sapier, well its not really sub definition
23:53 sapier it is
23:54 RealBadAngel you may think it is, while it isnt
23:54 sapier as vanessae already mentioned she's gonna use it for active as well as non active mesecon wires
23:54 RealBadAngel yes, and im going to simplify all the machines thx to it
23:54 VanessaE sapier: you just have to change how you think of finding a node - stop looking for it purely by name.  look for the name of the generic node and then check its param2 for its on/off state
23:55 RealBadAngel def stays the same, its not altered
23:55 sapier what you tell is increasing complexity by 100%
23:55 RealBadAngel so node wont become some other one
23:56 RealBadAngel treating it as another node (sub) is not understanding the mechanism
23:56 VanessaE the only caveat I can see is if you had two separate ABMs for two related nodes (an "on" and "off" state for something, maybe furnaces).  Those would need a single ABM with a one-line check to see which one you're dealing with
23:56 sapier obviously powered wires and non powered wires have a difference, it's just implicitly coded in the new subtype ... thus a relevant detail about the node isn't even part of nodedef
23:56 RealBadAngel im repeating subtype is completely wrong word here
23:56 sapier no it ain't
23:57 RealBadAngel node wont become something another with it
23:57 sapier you don't like it but it's exactly this
23:57 RealBadAngel in any way
23:57 * VanessaE wanders off to do something where she won't be half-ignored :-/
23:58 sapier just to stay at that special case vanessae mentioned if some mod wants to interact to mesecons node it HAS TO check nodename as well as subtype AND has to know the meaning of that subtype
23:58 RealBadAngel VanessaE, param2 MSB is your on/off flag for mesecons to spread the signal
23:58 sapier and those subtypes aren't even speaking names but just numbers
23:58 RealBadAngel and at the very same time way to represent it graphically
23:58 RealBadAngel tread msb = 0 as "off"
23:58 VanessaE sapier: incorrect.  mesecons has an API for that.  you never interact directly with the wires.
23:59 RealBadAngel *treat
23:59 sapier ok so moreblocks will add a node "moreblocks:block" and provide a api "moreblocks.getNode(pos)
23:59 VanessaE sapier: from the standpoint of a mod interacting with mesecons, nothing will change.  same is true of a mod interacting with pipeworks.  we have APIs to handle that stuff

| Channels | #minetest-dev index | Today | | Google Search | Plaintext