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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-07-25

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Time Nick Message
00:08 paramat left #minetest-dev
00:10 Zeno` port plant_lib?
00:10 VanessaE I was kidding :P
00:10 * Zeno` wipes the sweat off his brow
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03:05 Zeno` Zeno`> I'm wondering if some functions could be added to l_vanimp.cpp. In particular, something like l_get_u16data() or l_get_rawdata() which make a copy of vm->m_data and pass it to Lua as a userdata type. Also the equivalent set function. It'd be good to have these for the noise functions as well. The main reason for this is that I'm writing critical code in C and most of the time is spent traversing the Lua tabl
03:05 Zeno` <Zeno`> e for both noise and the vmdata. The additional functions would, when using C, increase performance dramatically because memcpy() could be used rather than a loop
03:05 Zeno` <Zeno`> each of the userdata types would be **u16
03:07 Zeno` A further speed increase would be gained by Lua mods that only use these "raw" data types rather than the Lua tables
03:07 Zeno` mainly because set_data() and get_data() won't need to iterate
03:08 Zeno` This, by the way, is my "compromise" where I don't modify the minetest source code but instead write C modules for Lua, keeping everyone happy
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03:10 hmmmm Zeno`, you don't need to iterate with the table returned by get_data()...
03:10 hmmmm I have no clue where you got that idea from
03:10 hmmmm it's a flattened 2d array.
03:11 Zeno` It's a Lua table isn't it?
03:11 hmmmm yes
03:12 Zeno` so when I pass control to my C module I have to manipulate the data in the Lua table rather than simply dereferencing the data. Unless I'm mistaken
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03:13 Zeno` I can't do   *(data + blah) = c_id; // or can I?
03:14 hmmmm we're talking about Lua
03:14 Zeno` I'm talking about writing the bulk of the mod in Lua, but having a C module do some heavy lifting
03:14 Zeno` i.e. I am calling *my* C function from Lua
03:15 hmmmm that's really not a good idea, Lua especially with LuaJIT is pretty fast
03:15 Zeno` It's very fast, yes. But this way is ~10x faster
03:15 Zeno` why isn't it a good idea?
03:16 hmmmm because it defeats the entire purpose of the scripting and it introduces cross-platform incompatibility
03:16 Zeno` only in the mod
03:16 hmmmm not to mention a security risk and it also requires more to be done by the user
03:16 hmmmm I don't know what sort of mechanism you have for marshalling data between the lua script and your C program
03:16 Zeno` if a mod creator decides they don't mind about cross-platform incompatibility either they write portable C or live with it. Surely it's their choice
03:17 hmmmm but, yeah, it seems like you're going to have to do the lua table -> plain array of u16 conversion back again
03:17 hmmmm yes, but now you're limiting the audience of minetest
03:17 hmmmm let's say your mod is really good and people love it
03:17 Zeno` nope. Only limiting the audience of my mod
03:17 hmmmm but you only write your module for windows
03:17 hmmmm peoples' games are going to depend on your mod and therefore depend on windows
03:18 Zeno` I understand that, but if I did that it'd be a crappy mod
03:18 hmmmm then you're going to have a huge division of players
03:18 hmmmm there's going to be players who run windows and play a game with your mod, and then the rest of them
03:18 hmmmm i'm saying that it's a bad idea for those reasons.  it's certainly your own choice though.
03:19 Zeno` I am marshelling data between Lua and C simply by passing the data as arguments (referring to your earlier query)
03:19 hmmmm so you have a Lua VM running in your program as well?
03:20 Zeno` no, you don't need that... the Lua stack is passed to my "program" (it's a shared lib like any Lua extension)
03:20 hmmmm and I guess you have a bunch of C API exposed that correspond to the Lua callbacks?
03:20 Zeno` no
03:20 hmmmm I don't quite understand how you're doing this
03:20 hmmmm how do you mean "passing data as arguments"
03:20 Zeno` hold on... I'll paste some
03:21 Zeno` http://codepad.org/LyB0kE5P
03:22 Zeno` so the only thing "exposed" is  luaopen_cavemapgenc() and l_gencaverealm() via registration of the function with Lua
03:22 hmmmm yes, you ARE running a lua vm there
03:22 hmmmm you clearly are doing exactly what I asked if you were doing
03:23 Zeno` I don't see the creation of the VM
03:23 Zeno` I'm using the VM created by minetest
03:23 hmmmm likewise I don't see the entry point
03:23 hmmmm wait
03:23 hmmmm I'm confused now
03:23 Zeno` the entry point is int luaopen_cavemapgenc(lua_State *L)
03:23 hmmmm how do you have access to the same VM used by minetest
03:23 hmmmm unless you're running inside the same process
03:23 Zeno` that's just how Lua works
03:24 Zeno` mystuff = I have require("cavemapgenc") in the Lua mod
03:24 hmmmm oh
03:24 Zeno` and it loads the shared library, passing the Lua stack to my code when required
03:24 Zeno` never the VM itself though
03:24 hmmmm that's interesting
03:24 hmmmm i never knew about that
03:25 hmmmm so let me get this straight
03:25 hmmmm mystuff is what, in that context?  a table object containing those methods you defined?
03:26 hmmmm and in the mod itself you'd just do mystuff.gencaverealm()?
03:26 hmmmm in onmapgeninit I assume
03:26 hmmmm okay I'm understanding how this works
03:26 Zeno` correct
03:27 Zeno` and I'd like to, apart from the argument passing via the Lua stack, avoid using the Lua stack
03:27 hmmmm I don't see how that's possible
03:27 hmmmm are you talking about passing a userdata object or something??
03:28 Zeno` yep
03:28 hmmmm why couldn't you just say that instead
03:28 Zeno` part of my Lua looks like this: http://codepad.org/PaqizkP8   (CMG is mystuff)
03:29 hmmmm oh this is a horrible slippery slope
03:29 Zeno` if noise params and 'data' could be gained as a "raw" userdata (**u16) then it would simplify a whole lot of things
03:29 hmmmm people are going to want a C api by exposing tables passed to lua as structs in userdata instead
03:29 hmmmm voxelmanip, I can understand...
03:30 Zeno` this avoids having a "complete" C api though :)
03:30 hmmmm in any case, when I first benchmarked LuaVoxelManip vs. a native mapgen, it only came out 2.5x slower
03:30 Zeno` it's a limited exposure via Lua API for just voxelmanip data and the noise
03:30 hmmmm definitely not 10x slower
03:30 hmmmm yeah, limited exposure my ass
03:30 hmmmm you're going to want another thing and then another thing and another thing
03:31 Zeno` My tests show on average 10x increase
03:31 hmmmm you might have been using it the wrong way
03:31 Zeno` I don't know why anyone would want anything other than noise and the voxelmanip data "raw"
03:31 Zeno` For everything else luajit is fast enough
03:32 hmmmm there's this one guy, I forget who exactly, but he keeps asking me to add something new to the schematics feature
03:32 Zeno` I do see your point though
03:32 hmmmm and then he'll say "oh this isn't working, this is a bug!" when it was never added as a feature
03:32 hmmmm e.g. total rotation in all 24 directions
03:33 hmmmm "oh it gets all crazy if facedir is above 4!"
03:33 hmmmm no shit
03:33 hmmmm I specifically made it only rotate along the Y axis
03:33 Zeno` The other advantage is that mapgens using these "advanced" functions would be faster just by the fact that you would not have to populate a Lua table (and depopulate it back when finished); you'd just use memcpy()
03:33 hmmmm ugh, Zeno`, if you write it I'll definitely commit it
03:33 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: Mesecons uses seperate nodeboxes for each node, so just switching between tiles and special_tiles won't work.  (And such a thing would be very ugly)  (If I understand what you're suggesting)
03:33 hmmmm this is like a 10 liner patch
03:34 Zeno` yep, it's not a lot at all
03:34 Zeno` I'll write it :)
03:34 hmmmm because you can test it, I can't
03:34 Zeno` thanks for at least listening! I'll write it when I get home and put it up on github
03:34 Zeno` for review
03:35 hmmmm Zeno`:  use light userdata instead
03:35 Zeno` ok
03:43 gentoobro the internet seem to say that luajit and gcc are roughly level on performance in simple math and data manipulation
03:43 gentoobro i'm a natural skeptic of such claims, but the luajit disassembly posted on some of the forums was impressive
03:45 Zeno` luajit is indeed impressive
03:46 Zeno` The speed increase I am talking about, though, isn't just about the luajit (it's about copying data which can be done via a loop or via something like memcpy() which, at least on x86, uses fast cpu microcode rather than a simple loop)
03:46 Zeno` so the increases are 3 fold
03:46 Zeno` 3 fold in the sense that there will be improvement in 3 areas
03:48 Zeno` I've done quite a few tests with simple O(n^3) loops that just add or subtract in the inner loop and depending on the expression because evaluated I'm seeing ~10x speed increases
03:48 Zeno` but even 2.5x speed increase for 3 times is still significant
03:49 Zeno` luajit is, I concede, pretty darn fast and fast enough for most things
03:49 Zeno` but, this is a complex loop and C really is better
03:49 Zeno` this doesn't affect anyone either
03:51 gentoobro is that a 10x for just the loops, or the entire block generation time?
03:51 Zeno` not really. I should make a document stating that "best practice" is to use just Lua, but here are the alternative (and limited) other things you can do. Most mod creators would at least write a mapgen prototype in Lua first anyway, unless they're inane
03:51 Zeno` just for the loops
03:51 gentoobro ah
03:51 Zeno` ignoring minetest and doing tests without minetest at all
03:51 Zeno` s/inane/insane
03:52 gentoobro it seems in my uneducated opinion that the speed boost from memcpy would be drowned out by the mapgen's other overhead
03:52 Zeno` You'd be surprised
03:52 gentoobro but i am intested it fou gt serious gains. my mapgen might benefit...
03:52 gentoobro *if you get
03:52 Zeno` the copy/modify/copy cycle is the slowest operation happening
03:53 Zeno` I already know I get serious gains, because I tested it with hacky changes to MT source. I'll make the hacks not hacky though.
03:54 gentoobro are you generating extra 3d noise beyond what the mapgen provides?
03:54 Zeno` no, I'm getting 3d noise from the map and generating my own 2d noise
03:55 Zeno` I'm using two instances of 3d noise though
03:55 Zeno` and kind of morphing them
03:58 gentoobro do you generate canyons?
03:59 Zeno` not at the moment... caves
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04:30 Zeno` \o for now
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05:17 swaawsios ShadowNinja: commit #1500 is Descripted
05:17 ShadowNinja swaawsios: Huh?
05:17 swaawsios my mistake
05:19 swaawsios ShadowNinja: ?
05:19 ShadowNinja swaawsios: Oh, the commit message is still undescriptive.  One sec, lemme see if that could actually be the source of that bug.
05:23 ShadowNinja swaawsios: Nope, adding a semicolon won't affect that bug.
05:23 ShadowNinja swaawsios: That bug is rare and unreproducable it seems.
05:24 swaawsios if you blaspheme run the server longer time passes the error in (with longer I mean 48h)
05:28 swaawsios with random users, no mods, default config, release Build
05:29 swaawsios ShadowNinja: Creative, and above-average use TNT
05:32 swaawsios ShadowNinja: This error occurs only when errors occur in the game.
05:37 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1519
05:40 RealBadAngel ShadowNinja, any comments on above?
05:40 ShadowNinja swaawsios: Yes, it happens when an error occurs and Lua can't handle the error.  I checked Lua's code and it only happens when the error handler isn't a function or there's a stack overflow.
05:42 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: Seems O.K., but wait, there are compatability concerns.
05:43 RealBadAngel thats why bump is here
05:48 swaawsios ShadowNinja: I have the commit recorded in my fork with and it runs without this error
05:50 ShadowNinja swaawsios: A fluke.  The semicolon isn't changing the error, you're just not getting it because it doesn't happen consistently.
05:51 ShadowNinja I had an idea about what it might be though...
05:54 swaawsios END_DEBUG_EXCEPTION_HANDLER(errorstream);
05:56 swaawsios is as a function of the error is all the transfers to act to this
05:57 ShadowNinja I think the error is occuring in a C function called from Lua that calls Lua.  Such calls have a specially manipulated stack so that index 1 is the start of function arguments, instead of the real start of the scack.
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06:00 swaawsios so that the main loop can make their service and all the errors to kill gently so that it continues
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06:02 swaawsios ShadowNinja: Garbage Collection for errors
06:03 swaawsios ^^
06:07 ShadowNinja swaawsios: Huh?
06:07 RealBadAngel btw, what do you think about making param2 16bits instead of 8?
06:08 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: Highly incompatible, and then why not 32 or 64 bits?  It takes up more stace, but probably not enough to matter.
06:09 RealBadAngel we are about to bump version anyway
06:09 ShadowNinja param1 and param2 are a bit limiting.  A variable-length list of params would be great.
06:09 RealBadAngel and i do need extra bits badly
06:09 hmmmm a variable length list of params is called 'node metadata'
06:10 hmmmm if you were to make the base node data variable length, you can kiss random access any any semblance of speed goodbye
06:10 hmmmm i explained this to vanessae a while ago
06:10 RealBadAngel i dont wanna meta in this case, i need fast accesible data
06:10 ShadowNinja hmmmm: That's only string-indexable though, right?  This would be disigned to be compact and fast.
06:10 hmmmm ?
06:10 hmmmm indexable as in you can do random access to a mapblock to retrieve a node
06:11 RealBadAngel and i do need just a few bits, makin param2 16 bits is far more than enough for me
06:11 hmmmm lol
06:11 hmmmm no
06:11 hmmmm stop it
06:11 hmmmm you're going to double the size of everything
06:11 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: What do you need it for?
06:11 hmmmm the same arguments against colored lighting applies here
06:11 hmmmm s/applies/apply/
06:12 ShadowNinja hmmmm: zlib should slim it down quite a bit.
06:12 hmmmm twice as big in memory though
06:12 RealBadAngel one bit could be used for switching tiles/special tiles usage for example
06:13 ShadowNinja Yes, but do mapblocks really take up that much memory space?
06:13 hmmmm and it's not just storage space
06:13 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: Nah, that technique is ugly.
06:13 hmmmm it's speed as well
06:14 hmmmm you take up more cache which means less nodes cached
06:14 hmmmm twice as many cache misses
06:14 RealBadAngel ShadowNinja, that is fast, way more faster than manipulating the meta
06:14 hmmmm look, if you're going to double the size of a mapnode (which I highly recommend against), for a single extra byte, then you need to add colored lighting as well.
06:15 RealBadAngel single if to switch to another set of tiles in rendering loop
06:15 RealBadAngel hmmm, irrlicht can do coloured lights for us, we dont have to reinvent the wheel
06:15 ShadowNinja hmmmm: That needs two more bytes.  At least for all colors.
06:16 hmmmm what I'm saying is that
06:16 hmmmm if we really could double a mapnode's size, you could do lots of things that you could not before
06:16 hmmmm but we'd also be on par with minecraft
06:16 hmmmm yuck
06:16 ShadowNinja I don't agree to the extra bytes though.
06:17 RealBadAngel how many bytes one node takes already?
06:17 hmmmm .....
06:17 hmmmm how don't you know
06:17 hmmmm 4
06:17 hmmmm if you add another byte, that's 5.  that makes a mapnode 8.
06:17 RealBadAngel i c
06:17 ShadowNinja That would take us from 16 to 24 kb per block.
06:17 hmmmm you mean 32
06:18 ShadowNinja Well, if you do it for both params.
06:18 ShadowNinja hmmmm: No, param0 os left as-is.
06:18 hmmmm no, you can't have 6 byte mapnodes
06:18 ShadowNinja is*
06:18 hmmmm they'd be padded to 8
06:18 hmmmm and then you'd be left with 2 completely useless bytes
06:19 RealBadAngel or a place for something new ;)
06:19 hmmmm i don't like it at all
06:19 hmmmm this is why i did not want colored lighting then and not now
06:20 RealBadAngel ok i will try to stick to what we have
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06:26 RealBadAngel hmmmm, are you ok with #1519 ?
06:26 hmmmm what's #1519
06:26 RealBadAngel change special tiles count to 6 and protocol bump
06:27 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1519
06:28 hmmmm OH YAY
06:28 hmmmm we're making ContentFeatures even larger!
06:29 hmmmm I don't think that's the correct protocol version to bump
06:30 RealBadAngel game can handle already different count so imho bump wouldnt be needed, but c55 and sapier insisted on bumping
06:31 hmmmm when people last changed ContentFeatures, what did they do?  I am looking at ContentFeatures::deSerialize and it expects a constant version number of 6
06:31 hmmmm why that isn't a constant is beyond me.
06:32 hmmmm ah yes, protocol_version there is the global protocol version
06:32 hmmmm I thought there was a ContentFeatures version as well
06:35 RealBadAngel there is
06:35 RealBadAngel 6 atm
06:36 ShadowNinja swaaws/swaawsweb: If you get that error again please tell me exactly what mod error caused it and provide the code please.  Minetest's code doesn't seem to have the issue I thought of.
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07:16 swaawsios ShadowNinja: ok
08:35 sfan5 I'm going to merge https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1516 in 15 minutes
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10:04 Zeno` what happens if git is not installed?
10:10 sfan5 Zeno`: talking to me?
10:15 Zeno` sorry, yes
10:16 sfan5 there will be no git version detection then
10:17 Zeno` so it'll just say version-githash?
10:18 sfan5 no
10:18 sfan5 it won't say anything
10:18 Zeno` no version string at all?
10:18 sfan5 yes
10:18 sfan5 0.4.10-dev
10:18 Zeno` ahh, ok
10:18 Zeno` cool
10:19 Zeno` and if I modify somerandomsrcfile.cpp does it have to recompile every single src file now?
10:19 sfan5 no
10:20 Zeno` great :)
10:20 sfan5 only version.cpp client.cpp lua_api/somefile.cpp server.cpp serverlist.cpp and main.cpp
10:20 Zeno` sounds a lot better than the previous set up
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12:02 celeron55 wat
12:04 celeron55 https://github.com/minetest/minete​st/pull/1519#issuecomment-50140205
12:04 celeron55 i can't believe RBA is being this ignorant again
12:16 sfan5 celeron55: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1518 <- does that look like it might break something I'm not aware of?
12:16 sfan5 and can we merge https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1510
12:16 sfan5 #1510 -> Add DISABLE_GIT_DETECTION CMake option
12:19 celeron55 dunno
12:23 sfan5 soo.. what about #1510 then?
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12:33 celeron55 it was an answer to both
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12:34 RealBadAngel celeron55, i wasnt sure whats have to be done when bumping version
12:35 RealBadAngel can you explain what do you mean with by "compatibility in (de)serialization" ?
12:36 RealBadAngel code checks already how many tiles being sent
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13:04 sfan5 now that more people are here: how about merging #1510 ?
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17:37 ^v does anyone use ffi?
17:39 sfan5 no
17:39 ^v why not
17:39 sfan5 becuase not available everywhere
17:40 sfan5 and not very portable
17:40 ^v LuaJIT's ffi works everywhere ._.
17:40 sfan5 but not everyone uses LuaJIT
17:41 ^v why not ._.
17:41 sfan5 because not everyone needs it
17:41 sfan5 and luajit does not work everywhere
17:41 ^v its more portable than normal lua
17:42 sfan5 uh
17:42 sfan5 no
17:43 ^v give me an OS that has opengl and doesnt have luajit
17:45 sfan5 anything that runs mesa on a processor arch not supported by luajit
17:45 ^v x86 x64 ARM PPC e500 MIPS
17:45 sfan5 (yes, mesa has a software driver)
17:46 sfan5 AArch64?
17:46 sfan5 iPhone 5S in that case
17:46 sfan5 has OpenGL ES and not supported by LuaJIT
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17:48 VanessaE sfan5: wouldn't it make more sense to bundle LuaJIT (to hell with what the author thereof wants) and just finally update Lua to 5.2 so that this is no longer an issue for those platforms that can't use it?
17:48 VanessaE I mean, wasn't the latter already partly in progress?
17:48 sfan5 <VanessaE> sfan5: wouldn't it make more sense to bundle LuaJIT
17:48 sfan5 no
17:48 sfan5 bundling things is bad
17:48 sfan5 and just finally update Lua to 5.2 so that this is no longer an issue for those platforms that can't use it?
17:48 sfan5 I'd really like 5.2
17:49 ^v LuaJIT has goto support by default
17:49 VanessaE goto is bad.
17:49 VanessaE and you should be shot for suggesting it :)
17:49 ^v 5.3 is the only thing that would actually be better than luajit
17:50 ^v VanessaE, whats wrong with goto
17:50 VanessaE if you have to rely on goto to write your code, you're doing it wrong.,
17:50 sfan5 VanessaE: goto is good
17:50 sfan5 but often abused
17:51 VanessaE and I come from the world of BASIC.
17:51 ^v goto is good if you want to break out of multiple loops
17:51 ^v exept i still dont use goto
17:51 sfan5 ^
17:52 ^v the reason i am stuck with luajit is because ffi
17:52 ^v you can use liblua functions with it
17:53 ^v so you can control and thread your own lua_state
17:53 VanessaE so, again... what happened with that 5.2 update that was supposedly in progress?
17:58 ^v sfan5, "You can cross-compile for iOS 3.0+ (iPhone/iPad) using the iOS SDK."
17:58 sfan5 VanessaE: IIRC sapier didn't like it
17:58 VanessaE *grumble*
17:58 sfan5 ^v: if luajit does not support AArch64 that is pointless
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18:11 Calinou what does 5.2 really offer in comparison to 5.1? is 5.3 finished yet?
18:11 Calinou do distros reliably ship 5.2 and 5.3?
18:11 ^v 5.3 is just 5.2 with bitwise operators >_>
18:12 ^v the env system in 5.2 is really weird
18:12 ^v you have to use debug in order to set the env of a function already loaded
18:12 ^v loadstring is now just load
18:13 ^v a lot of libraries dont support 5.2 yet
18:15 Sokomine as for lua and mt, most mods do not seem to use libraries anyway. it reduces chances of someone installing the mod if there are other external mods it depends on
18:16 ^v do some mods even include c fileS?
18:16 Sokomine not to my knowledge
18:16 ^v :/
18:17 Sokomine quite a lot of mods achieve what they're good for with very simple lua. that's ok - it's a blocky world, and nice nodes are always welcome
18:17 ^v oh and what really makes me mad in 5.3 is that the int64s are signed
18:17 Sokomine library usage of any kind is quite limited due to the fear that dependencies would decrease will and capabilites of users to try the mod
18:20 Exio the irc mod
18:20 sfan5 Calinou: http://www.lua.org/work/doc/#changes
18:21 ^v i totally forgot to mention bitwise operators
18:22 ^v ** is cool too
18:24 Calinou “support for integers (64-bit by default)” uh?
18:24 ^v er
18:24 ^v /
18:24 ^v //*
18:24 ^v integer division
18:25 ^v <v^> .l53 1<<63
18:25 ^v <^v> v^, -9223372036854775808
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