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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-07-24

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Time Nick Message
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05:11 RealBadAngel ShadowNinja, around?
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05:29 Zeno` RealBadAngel, I was going to right a quick test for lumping it all into one (without the loops) but never got around to it. Looking at the code and the C++ standard it would work
05:30 RealBadAngel Zeno`, what are you talkin about?
05:30 Zeno` also, and this probably wasn't you and is a bit pendatic, but sizeof(MapNode) is not a great idea... sizeof(m_data[0]) would be better in case the m_data's type changes
05:30 Zeno` oh sorry... see #minetest
05:30 Zeno` <Zeno`> RealBadAngel: something I'm kind of uncertain about... https://github.com/minetest/minete​st/blob/master/src/voxel.cpp#L224
05:30 Zeno` <Zeno`> why is the memcpy() and associated memset() inside two outer loops instead of just copying the whole lot
05:31 RealBadAngel thats not my playground
05:31 Zeno` ahh ok
05:31 Zeno` who looks after the voxelmanip stuff?
05:32 RealBadAngel i think hmm, c55 or sapier could tell something bout it
05:32 Zeno` thanks
05:32 RealBadAngel i am doing gfx related stuff only
05:33 RealBadAngel sometimes lua-core, for modding
05:36 Zeno` I just thought it was you because I thought I saw a commit from you... was probably mistaken heh
05:36 Zeno` yeah sapier made the commit
05:36 Zeno` my bad
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06:00 RealBadAngel sapier is kinda universal to blame lol
06:02 RealBadAngel he just took c55's job i guess
06:04 RealBadAngel btw, for the record, im going to multiply param2 in plantlike by 2
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06:05 RealBadAngel thats after zefram_fysh
06:05 RealBadAngel and to make 360 degs rotations possible
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11:30 sfan5 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1516
11:30 sfan5 comments please
11:30 sfan5 Don't include cmake_config_githash.h into files that don't need it     #1516
11:31 Zefram_Fysh if that reduces rebuilding then it's worthwhile
11:33 Zefram_Fysh sfan5: btw, nore showed up and spoke in favour of putting filled buckets in creative inventory (game issue #283), so per BlockMen you're free to apply that now
11:34 sfan5 <Zefram_Fysh> if that reduces rebuilding then it's worthwhile
11:34 sfan5 it does exactly that
11:34 sfan5 Zefram_Fysh: ok, will apply now
11:34 Zefram_Fysh yay
11:34 Zefram_Fysh and yay
11:39 Zeno` sfan: I'd agree with that
11:39 Zeno` sfan5, it's a bit annoying actually having to rebuild the entire source
11:40 Zeno` if somebody wants to change the "-dirty" bit that's pretty easy, so there is not a huge point to it
11:41 Zeno` the only thing it does is force a rebuild of 90% of the files because I added a space heh
11:46 RealBadAngel shit happens
11:46 RealBadAngel try to work on tile.cpp
11:46 RealBadAngel and its header
11:47 RealBadAngel pain in the ass
11:47 RealBadAngel its included everywhere almost ;)
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13:02 Zefram_Fysh http://paste.scsys.co.uk/409325 [PATCH] Vector math improvements
13:05 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1517
13:05 Zefram_Fysh thanks
13:05 VanessaE np.
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15:24 ShadowNinja Zefram_Fysh: Commented on it.
15:28 Zefram_Fysh re overflow, do we ever get vectors large enough that squaring an element is liable to overflow?  I thought we were many many orders of magnitude below that
15:31 ShadowNinja Zefram_Fysh: Perhaps, but as long as we can do that without a significant performance penalty, why not?
15:36 Zefram_Fysh I'd want to see timing measurements before saying that your math.hypot isn't a significant performance penalty.  and doing two sqrts per vector.length seems wasteful, but I guess you can rewrite vector.length to work the same kind of way as your math.hypot with only one sqrt operation
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18:08 Krock *breaks silence*
18:08 VanessaE G*d damn it krock
18:08 VanessaE now look what you did
18:08 Krock >:D
18:08 RealBadAngel holy shit
18:08 PenguinDad Mese
18:08 * VanessaE hands Krock a broom and dust pan
18:09 VanessaE look at the mess.
18:09 VanessaE pieces of silence all over the floor
18:09 * Krock gives VanessaE a "Thanks" card
18:10 VanessaE anyone got any glue?
18:11 Krock technic possibly has some
18:11 Krock ask her
18:18 sfan5 what purpose does TextureSource::rebuildImagesAndTextures() serve?
18:21 RealBadAngel re reads all the files and generates texture pointers
18:23 * Krock wonders how long some pulls will stay on the waiting list
18:23 PenguinDad Krock: that can take a looong time
18:24 sfan5 RealBadAngel: not what it does, why it exists
18:25 RealBadAngel good question, idk :)
18:25 sfan5 I'll find out after this compiled..
18:26 RealBadAngel sapier was lately modifing it, he may know
18:26 sfan5 zsh: segmentation fault  ./minetest
18:26 sfan5 looks like I broke it
18:27 RealBadAngel btw, going to add check for texture pointer in glasslike_framed drawtype
18:27 VanessaE RealBadAngel: also add a check to the screwdriver - it should not change param2 of such
18:27 RealBadAngel that will solve that issue
18:27 sapier for what I remember rebuildImagesAndTextures is a relic of texture atlas not beeing removed because of too much to change
18:27 VanessaE (else it could be used by a griefer/cheater to add/remove "stuff" from a glasslike_framed tank)
18:28 RealBadAngel where was the issue posted anyway? cant find it now
18:28 sapier could be used for initial building of textures too
18:28 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1514
18:28 RealBadAngel ty
18:28 VanessaE yw
18:29 RealBadAngel btw stupid comparission, those 2 unaffected nodes are not of the same drawtype even
18:29 VanessaE I know, I already told her
18:29 VanessaE they're glasslike, from building_blocks mod in homedecor.
18:29 * sfan5 wonders what code calls TextureSource::rebuildImagesAndTextures()
18:30 RealBadAngel it could be dirt placed there and pointed hey its working ok
18:30 RealBadAngel client.cpp #2662
18:32 VanessaE RealBadAngel: *any*way, don't let the default screwdriver alter param2 on a framed glass node at all, whether it has a proper texture or not
18:32 RealBadAngel anyway check for pointer is needed
18:33 sfan5 YAY!
18:33 sfan5 it works
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18:33 RealBadAngel sfan5, what?
18:33 * sfan5 reworked texture/image generation in tile.cpp
18:33 sfan5 I also added (...) support to texture names
18:33 RealBadAngel can i see the code?
18:33 VanessaE sfan5: ... ?
18:33 sfan5 yes
18:33 sfan5 VanessaE: example: default_wood.png^(default_cobble.png^autobl​ockbreaker_mask1.png^[makealpha:255,0,255)
18:34 VanessaE oooooo
18:34 VanessaE sorta like layer groups
18:34 sfan5 VanessaE: will create default_cobble.png^autoblockbreak​er_mask1.png^[makealpha:255,0,255 and then do default_wood.png^what_it_just_created
18:34 VanessaE kaeza will like that :)
18:34 * sfan5 likes it too
18:34 RealBadAngel and engine cries ;)
18:34 sfan5 not really
18:35 RealBadAngel i know some modders that will surely abuse it to the limits :)
18:35 * sfan5 looks at Jordach
18:35 * PenguinDad looks at signs_lib
18:36 RealBadAngel which reminds me signs should be altered to generate textures with text given
18:36 RealBadAngel on the fly
18:36 sfan5 RealBadAngel: http://sprunge.us/UdHS?diff todo: fix inventorycube, move code from generateTexture to generateImage and make generateTexture only create a texture
18:36 RealBadAngel kaeza's mod is a killer one
18:37 RealBadAngel especially when irrlicht has text scene node
18:37 sfan5 RealBadAngel: comments to the code?
18:38 sapier sfan5 please don't remove the android assertions unless you're gonna search those ugly hard to find bugs ;-P
18:39 sfan5 sapier: I replaced the code so that those android stuff is done elsewhere
18:39 sapier then please move the assertions too ;-)
18:39 sfan5 yeah yeah
18:40 RealBadAngel sfan5, it looks ok for me, cant say anythin bout android stuff
18:40 sfan5 VanessaE: I initially wanted it so I could create this texture on the fly (notice the cobble at the edges): http://i.imgur.com/N7OGlmz.png
18:40 sapier and please check if you did break inventorycube rendering that's quite ugly on android and I'll not be very friendly if I have to do it all again ;-P
18:40 sfan5 I did break it
18:41 sfan5 and I know why
18:41 sfan5 I'll fix that
18:41 RealBadAngel sfan5, but since youre doing something with tiles, remember that everything has to be done on startup
18:41 VanessaE sapier: admit it, you LOOOVE to fix android stuff ;)
18:41 sfan5 RealBadAngel: everything is done on startup
18:41 VanessaE sfan5: interesting test.  you should use signs_lib as another test ;)
18:41 sfan5 this test is enoough
18:41 sfan5 -o
18:41 sapier nope
18:41 sapier signs is hardcore
18:41 sfan5 VanessaE: btw: you can nest the ( .. )
18:41 RealBadAngel thats very important, since last changes (mapblock mesh speedup) runtime modifications are not allowed
18:42 sfan5 sapier: I won't change signs_lib to use this feature
18:42 RealBadAngel fences was the last piece of code that did that, and its fixed already
18:42 sfan5 fence did runtime modifications?
18:42 VanessaE nono I don't mean to change it.  I just meant to see if it still works etc.
18:42 sapier you don't have to change signs lib you just have to run it
18:43 RealBadAngel yes, with transformR90
18:43 sfan5 VanessaE: link pls
18:43 VanessaE sfan5: https://github.com/VanessaE/homedecor_modpack
18:43 sapier sfan5 just connect to vanessae's vanilla server
18:43 VanessaE or do that.
18:43 sapier should be test enough ;-)
18:43 RealBadAngel mods can use transforms ofc, but engine while rendering cant
18:45 sapier L157 ... why don't you just use std::string???
18:46 sfan5 sapier: I didn't change that part
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18:47 sapier It's all green so "no change" doesn't seem to be an exact match ;)
18:47 sfan5 sapier, VanessaE: satisfied? http://i.imgur.com/TfQQboO.png
18:47 VanessaE sfan5: yes, quite :)
18:47 sapier nope join server run ... it's a benchmark
18:47 sapier a single sign working may be pure chance ;-)
18:47 VanessaE *looks into the distance*
18:47 VanessaE sfan5: what is that on the right?
18:47 sfan5 -for(s32 i=name.size()-1; i>=0; i--)
18:47 sfan5 157 +for(s32 i = name.size() - 1; i >= 0; i--) {
18:48 sfan5 ^ sapier
18:48 VanessaE about 10 nodes back, on the right, in the cobble...the circle
18:48 sfan5 VanessaE: autoblockbreaker
18:48 VanessaE ahh
18:48 sapier well it's been used for a single separator what I see or did git mix it all up?
18:48 sfan5 we used this with the skyblock map to auto-mine cobble
18:48 sapier what's the new thing anyway?
18:49 sapier sfan5 are you assembler programmer?
18:49 sfan5 VanessaE: http://meow.minetest.net/skyblock-video.mp4 1:60
18:49 sfan5 sapier: no
18:49 sfan5 assembler is a PITA
18:49 sapier then why do you create spaghetti code ?
18:49 sfan5 wut
18:50 sfan5 where?
18:50 sapier this usage of goto is exactly why goto is famous
18:50 sfan5 uh
18:51 sfan5 the goto thing is better than:
18:51 sfan5 for(...) {
18:51 sfan5 bool b = false;
18:51 sapier it's not like breaking out of a huge function saving a lot of code ... it's just quick and dirty
18:51 sfan5 if(fooobar)
18:51 sfan5 b= true;
18:51 sfan5 if(b)
18:51 sfan5 break;
18:51 sfan5 }
18:51 sapier or
18:51 sfan5 or?
18:52 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/bl​ob/master/src/content_mapblock.cpp#L949
18:52 sapier for(s32 i = name.size() - 1; i >= 0 && (!loop_done); i--) {
18:52 sfan5 this is almost as bad
18:52 RealBadAngel going to change this very line to: if (param2 > 0 && f.special_tiles[0].texture) {
18:52 sapier way more clean then this goto usage
18:52 RealBadAngel any objections?
18:52 sfan5 sapier: no
18:52 sfan5 RealBadAngel: no
18:53 sfan5 s/$/ objections/
18:53 RealBadAngel sapier?
18:53 sapier RealBadAngel: no idea what you're doing there so I can't tell anything about
18:54 RealBadAngel sapier, this will solve https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1514
18:55 sapier sfan5: simple rule don't use goto for conditional code execution that's why it's been hated so much ... yes you can write shorter code. but noone will see where that damn jump label is without looking for it
18:55 RealBadAngel simply dont display interior when there are no textures defined
18:55 sapier if this fixes it merge it
18:55 sfan5 sapier: "no one will see where that damn variable is used without looking for it"
18:56 sfan5 and all code is conditional
18:56 sfan5 using goto in un-conditional code is worse
18:56 sfan5 and why exactly are you complaining because of -> ONE <- goto
18:56 sfan5 ?
18:56 RealBadAngel ok, pushing it
18:57 sapier that variable is exactly where any programmer would expect it ... within a conditional expression and not somewhere hidden wirthin other code
18:57 sapier yes because it seems like one goto per month is added
18:57 sfan5 hidden within other code != at the end of a for loop for everyone to see
18:58 sapier 178 +           continue;
18:58 sapier 179 +           loop_break:
18:58 sapier 180 +           break;
18:58 sapier tell me where's the optica difference between those lines?
18:59 sapier not even talking about how crude that combination of codelines is ;-P
18:59 sfan5 the different is letters
18:59 sfan5 or colors if you are not stuck in 1999
18:59 sapier btw a even simpler way of doing is using i = -1;
19:00 sfan5 i'll use that then
19:00 sapier and of course add a comment above //abort loop
19:00 sfan5 I am not dumb
19:01 sapier that's not what I intended to tell :-(
19:01 RealBadAngel ok, so about special tiles count. i want it to be raised and be 6 as regular tile
19:01 RealBadAngel can we do it now, since 0.4.10 is behind?
19:02 sfan5 don't ask me
19:02 sfan5 I dunno about that stuff
19:02 RealBadAngel that will require protocol version bump
19:02 RealBadAngel since that bitch is hardcoded
19:03 RealBadAngel i need that to be changed for 2 stated drawtype
19:03 RealBadAngel with 2 sets of textures
19:03 sapier sfan5: rebuildImagesAndTextures do you need the lock in there or not? if not remove it completely
19:04 sapier ahh you did remove full content
19:04 sfan5 I did that to see what would happen
19:04 RealBadAngel above will apply for many things like furnaces, mesecon wires etc
19:04 sfan5 as I didn't understand what it was for
19:04 RealBadAngel mesecons wires definitions needed will be cut by half
19:04 sapier btw you did remove the android texture fix too ... that part in there is crucial ... lots of android devices don't support non npot2 textures
19:05 sfan5 sapier: I didn't remove it, it's already elsewhere
19:05 sfan5 anyway
19:05 sfan5 that code is todo
19:05 sapier 3  #ifdef __ANDROID__
19:05 sapier 324             img = Align2Npot2(img,driver);
19:05 sapier is the important part
19:05 RealBadAngel brb
19:06 sapier wherever you happen to create those images in future add it there
19:06 RealBadAngel need to boot into android for a moment
19:06 sfan5 ^ o.o
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19:36 RealBadAngel back
19:36 VanessaE wb
19:37 RealBadAngel so, what about special tiles count rise?
19:37 RealBadAngel sapier?
19:39 sapier hmm
19:40 sapier is there really no way to fix it in a compatible way?
19:40 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minete​st/blob/master/src/nodedef.h#L154
19:40 RealBadAngel its hardcoded
19:40 sapier if we change it now in master you basicaly force all server admins to stay on stable
19:41 RealBadAngel we need that anyway
19:41 RealBadAngel 2 is just plain stupid
19:41 sapier why not merge it just a few weeks prior 0.4.11 release?
19:42 RealBadAngel i wanted that in 0.4.10 and you asked me to wait with that
19:42 sapier yes because it's been way to close
19:42 sapier and yes both aren't good solutions
19:42 RealBadAngel are you aware how many node definitions mesecons wires have?
19:43 sapier basically this change is 0.5
19:43 sapier and to be honest imho the improvement is not worth a milestone
19:43 RealBadAngel and 6d facedir mesecons wires?
19:44 RealBadAngel in the 2nd case we are talking bout 1k
19:44 RealBadAngel that single change means cut by half
19:44 sapier if you do this change you need two things: 1) update version number to 0.5 ... and second a release withing a short amount of time
19:44 RealBadAngel its not worth 0.5 imho
19:45 sapier if we break protocol compatibility it's 0.5 no matter if it's worth it or not
19:45 sapier especially as you break it in a way that makes clients crash
19:45 RealBadAngel no, they wont crash
19:45 sapier I remember different things
19:46 RealBadAngel they will be informed that server uses newer code
19:46 sapier did you verify this with a 0.4.9 client?
19:46 RealBadAngel theres a code for it somwhere
19:46 RealBadAngel yes i did
19:46 sapier are you sure?
19:47 RealBadAngel if server tries to send 6 special tiles and client knows two, message bout it is being displayed
19:47 RealBadAngel lemme find it
19:48 RealBadAngel nodedef.cpp #321
19:48 sapier wgar's number of this pull?
19:48 RealBadAngel so the client wont crash for sure
19:48 sapier for what I remember you added this for 0.4.10
19:49 RealBadAngel i wanted to change that for 0.4.10 but was asked to wait with that
19:49 sapier yes because of that code missing ;-)
19:49 RealBadAngel no
19:49 RealBadAngel that code is here since always
19:49 RealBadAngel i wanted just to set CF_SPECIAL_COUNT to 6
19:50 sapier tell me the pull request number I'll check myself how it's gonna behave
19:51 RealBadAngel theres no pull for that
19:51 RealBadAngel just edit nodedef.h line #154
19:51 sapier can you explain to me why you even expect to merge compatibility breaking changes without giving ppl chance to review?
19:52 RealBadAngel im talking bout it
19:52 sapier and no don't change it in a way it's gonna break compatibility again if someone wants to add 8 tiles
19:52 RealBadAngel and ofc i can make a pull, no problem
19:52 RealBadAngel node doesnt have 8 tiles
19:52 RealBadAngel neither 2
19:52 sapier fix it in a way we won't have same issue again later
19:52 RealBadAngel just 6
19:52 sapier unless someone adds drawtype ikosaeder
19:53 RealBadAngel i cant say what some1 will invent in the future
19:53 RealBadAngel i just know 6 is the right value
19:53 sapier then make a change safe for future
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19:54 sapier e.g. throw exception on less then required number only
19:54 sapier ignoring additional ones
19:54 RealBadAngel i can do that
19:55 sapier and make a pull request, sometimes ppl find solutins after thinking about it for a while ... they can't think if they have nothing to think about
19:55 RealBadAngel but wait
19:55 RealBadAngel that wont work
19:55 sapier that's exactly what a pull request is for ... find out what works and what doesn't
19:55 RealBadAngel because its gonna be widely used
19:56 RealBadAngel by dozens of node types
19:56 sapier and?
19:56 RealBadAngel by definition it will be incompatible
19:56 sapier so we can't do it that way anyway?
19:56 sfan5 sapier: https://github.com/sfan5/minetest/commit/​3ece430ca1af503cd157e0ae8c0b634742f13504 more comments? (this code is finished now)
19:56 RealBadAngel if furnace is going to become a very single node, without need to swap active/inactive
19:57 RealBadAngel it will mean mods will change
19:57 sapier sfan5 let me check it for android first
19:57 RealBadAngel engine cant just fake it
19:58 sapier sorry but this doesn't sound like something very likely to happen
19:58 RealBadAngel it has to happen
19:58 sapier we need to find a less invasive way to do it
19:58 RealBadAngel yes theres a way
19:58 RealBadAngel but i doubt THAT will happen
19:59 RealBadAngel set meta nodedef
19:59 sapier well a change forcing any single mod having a node in it to be updated wont happen for sure too
19:59 RealBadAngel that wont hurt so much
19:59 RealBadAngel all old mods will work as usual
19:59 sapier just plain NO
20:00 RealBadAngel but new ones will require new clients simply
20:00 sapier could you please try to no tell different things any minute? ... or at least be more precise ;-)
20:00 RealBadAngel try to run a mod that uses a feature added at some point
20:00 RealBadAngel any
20:01 RealBadAngel it will crash on older client
20:01 RealBadAngel hows that different from my change?
20:01 sapier ok then it's a 0.5 change
20:01 sapier 0.4 are at max things that cause clients to tell "not compatible" ... but crashing is evil
20:02 RealBadAngel i wont argue about version number, but if we have more changes that would require new protocol
20:02 proller lol, it says assert-man
20:02 RealBadAngel we should gather them together
20:03 RealBadAngel sapier, even now clients wont crash, they are just unable to connect to server that has 6 special tiles
20:04 RealBadAngel and even then only when server mods actually use that feature
20:04 sapier do clients crash if that feature is used by server or not?
20:04 RealBadAngel no
20:04 RealBadAngel they got warning message
20:04 RealBadAngel and can go back to server selection menu
20:04 sapier and the effect on gameplay will be?
20:05 sapier ok so unable to join that server
20:05 RealBadAngel single node for 2 stated nodes
20:05 RealBadAngel like wire on/off
20:05 RealBadAngel or furnace active inactive
20:06 sapier so actually we've got a stable version noone can use because server admins will use master ... that's ... crazy
20:06 RealBadAngel ofc that will have to be coded, but that setting is needed first
20:06 sapier rba client's tell their protocol version can you use this to handle them different?
20:07 RealBadAngel lemme check how it looks exactly
20:08 VanessaE sapier: no one can use stable because servers use master...and this is different from the usual...how? :)
20:09 RealBadAngel hehe indeed
20:09 VanessaE (really though I'm sure it would only affect a few servers)
20:09 sapier actually 0.4.10 was supposed to change this
20:09 sapier and it'd make live more easy for developers too
20:09 RealBadAngel every single modding change added causes forcing to update
20:10 RealBadAngel this is not any different
20:10 sapier as you could just tell ppl "master isn't stable"
20:10 sapier it is ... we need to get away from this state
20:11 RealBadAngel wonder how. ;)
20:11 RealBadAngel we are developing something here
20:11 VanessaE release more ofte then
20:11 VanessaE often(
20:11 VanessaE ...
20:11 sapier that wont help
20:11 RealBadAngel how could you expect it to be compatible with everything around?
20:11 sapier a release is worth nothing if it's full of simple bugs
20:12 RealBadAngel im trying to fix my bugs asap
20:12 sapier maybe creating a stable branch would help
20:12 sapier only bugfixes are merged there
20:13 sapier from that branch nightly/weekly builds could be provided without need for feature freeze as it's frozen by definition
20:13 sapier so server owners have to use those branches or stop complaining about their bleeding edge servers are broken ... same for modders
20:14 RealBadAngel but we already have that
20:14 sapier no we don't
20:14 RealBadAngel release is just such branch
20:14 sapier right after 0.4.10 was released experimental things got merged to master
20:15 RealBadAngel we just dont allow pushing to released branch
20:15 sapier you can't do stable bugfixing on top of feature additions
20:15 RealBadAngel and we shouldnt imho
20:16 RealBadAngel having to maintain 2 sets of code?
20:16 RealBadAngel forget it
20:16 sapier better then current state where you never have a stable version
20:16 RealBadAngel i can see fix in one branch makin mess in 2nd
20:17 sapier why? stable is not supposed to get fixes like that texture change
20:17 RealBadAngel sapier....
20:17 RealBadAngel https://github.com/freeminer/freeminer/comm​it/38b950d8887288edd36a1c6d08f8b07e8b597c0d
20:17 sapier more like ohh we did "<=" instead of "<"
20:17 RealBadAngel no comments
20:17 sapier and?
20:17 RealBadAngel some1 here clearly understands whats that for
20:18 RealBadAngel single line change that is able to cut FIVE HUNDRED node definitions is fucking worth it
20:19 RealBadAngel and that is only for mesecons wires alone
20:19 sapier you wont have any benefit unless you break all stable clients
20:20 RealBadAngel i do that in every feature i add to technic or unified inventory
20:20 sapier I keep on my position if you add this increase version to 0.5 declare feature freeze and release a new stable within less then 4 weeks
20:20 RealBadAngel mods evolve together with engine
20:21 sapier it's useless unless mods are changed and once they are changed stable client is broken
20:21 RealBadAngel sapier, it happens dozens of times
20:21 RealBadAngel for example waypoints
20:21 sapier I still can join a current server using client 0.4.1
20:22 RealBadAngel would you call it breaking feature?
20:22 ImQ009 joined #minetest-dev
20:22 sapier no matter what mod that server runs
20:22 sapier and I can play there
20:22 RealBadAngel yet if mod is using that you wont be able to connect with older client
20:22 CraigyDavi` joined #minetest-dev
20:22 sapier once this feature is used I can't do it so it's clearly a 0.5 feature
20:22 RealBadAngel as for everything
20:22 RealBadAngel for 0.5 i do have another features planned
20:23 sapier as I said I can connect with any 0.4 client to a current server it may not be perfect but it will work
20:23 sapier it wont work if you merge that
20:23 sapier it's a small change but that doesn't change it's version bumper nature
20:23 sapier unless you find a way to prevent old clients from being dropped
20:24 RealBadAngel i remind that game handles that already
20:24 RealBadAngel without crashing
20:24 sapier crashing or droping client is a minor change
20:24 sapier the main difference is "I can't connect with old client" which means version bump
20:25 RealBadAngel so lets just bump it for christ sake
20:25 RealBadAngel how much changing one BIT should take?
20:25 RealBadAngel yes, we are talkin about changing one fucking bit in code
20:26 sapier I wont decide this alone if we do it we need more then two opinions
20:26 RealBadAngel celeron wanted bump too
20:26 sapier one fucking bit in nuclear power plant control may be the difference between save and desaster
20:26 RealBadAngel lol
20:27 RealBadAngel good point :)
20:28 sapier and believe me you do feel different if you know some of your code may end up in nuclear power plant control system ;-)
20:28 RealBadAngel btw, do you realize that this bit is already different licensed?
20:29 sapier hopefully that one doesn't have enough "invention height" ... if you did create a pull before we wouldn't have that issue now ;-P
20:29 RealBadAngel well, that bit was in the pull already
20:29 sapier we need a different server list for 0.4 and 0.5 servers too
20:30 RealBadAngel i wanted to add that together with glasslike_framed interior
20:30 RealBadAngel but then faced hardcoded nature of it
20:31 RealBadAngel which is unbeliveable plain stupid
20:32 RealBadAngel why 2 as count? 1 is used when you want node to have same tiles for all faces
20:32 RealBadAngel 6 tiles for 6 faces
20:32 RealBadAngel but shoot me what for 2 are
20:33 RealBadAngel propably just "because"
20:33 RealBadAngel about servers list idk
20:34 sapier sfan5 what are the parantheses used for?
20:34 RealBadAngel hmmm, maybe if client sends request for a list it should send its version?
20:34 RealBadAngel and fetch only good to go ones
20:35 RealBadAngel should be that hard to code
20:35 sapier I think this should be possible but we need to add it first ... we would have had to add it anyway by some time
20:36 RealBadAngel so instead of talkin lets do it
20:36 sapier I'm still hoping for a compatible solution ;-)
20:36 RealBadAngel lets bump it and add those features that will surely require bumping
20:36 RealBadAngel in this very case, NO
20:36 RealBadAngel you wont get such one
20:36 sapier we won't bump without any other core dev to notice ;-)
20:37 RealBadAngel ofc, im not saying lets do that NOW
20:37 RealBadAngel lets wait at least 10 minutes ;)
20:38 RealBadAngel but seriously, let the others say what they think bout it
20:38 sapier as mods will have to be changed anyway I don't think there's a hurry ... you could create that pull and add it to milestone 0.5 in between
20:39 RealBadAngel btw, please tell me what protocol version number do we have now?
20:39 sapier RealBadAngel: on adding it don't forget about the adding without having to break on next increase ;-)
20:40 sapier for what I remember that change isn't in protocol
20:40 RealBadAngel it isnt, but i asked on purpose
20:40 sapier 23
20:41 RealBadAngel so, if we managed to survive bumping 22 times, we can surely do that once again ;)
20:42 sapier protocol version bump isn't a big deal
20:42 RealBadAngel and btw, i dont remember 22 releases caused by protocol bumping ;)
20:42 sapier bumping CLIENT_PROTOCOL_VERSION_MIN is the big deal
20:42 RealBadAngel not really
20:43 RealBadAngel its just a few seconds download
20:43 sapier only if there's a stable version
20:43 RealBadAngel world is doing that all the time and not complainin
20:43 RealBadAngel there is, 0.4.10
20:43 RealBadAngel master is dev
20:43 sapier not after you changed it ;-P
20:44 RealBadAngel and dev by definition is changing all the time
20:44 sfan5 <sfan5> VanessaE: example: default_wood.png^(default_cobble.png^autobl​ockbreaker_mask1.png^[makealpha:255,0,255)
20:44 sfan5 ^ sapier
20:44 sapier if you get server admins to handle it that way I'll be fine with it ;-)
20:44 sapier sfan5: please add doc for it ;-)
20:44 sfan5 no
20:45 sfan5 I won't write documentation for the whole texture thing
20:45 RealBadAngel just add a note that () can be used
20:45 sfan5 where
20:46 sapier and I won't agree to adding a new feature without doc ... even if I really like the code ... still doc is must have
20:46 RealBadAngel good question
20:46 sfan5 there is no documentation for this whole texture modifier stuff
20:46 sfan5 sapier: wow, you like the code?
20:46 RealBadAngel sapier, are you aware that even drawtypes are undocumented?
20:47 sfan5 maybe I'll write docs tomorrow
20:47 RealBadAngel i should also document what im adding but dont have a place to start with
20:48 sapier hmm .. seems I missed to demand the doc for your new drawtype RealBadAngel ... wont happen again
20:48 RealBadAngel i havent missed that
20:48 RealBadAngel tried to add that to lua_api.txt
20:48 RealBadAngel but PA (i think) asked me to remove it
20:49 sapier sfan5: even if I'd prefere you to write s short doc for the other texture things it'd be sufficent to write the doc for the new feature and add a todo too ...
20:49 RealBadAngel we need that badly
20:49 sapier PA didn't want to bloat lua_api.txt even more?
20:49 RealBadAngel not really "we", modders need that
20:49 sfan5 sapier: writing docs for the other things wouldn't be an issue, mostly just copying comments from tile.cpp
20:50 VanessaE who gives two shits how "bloated" the API doc it, as long as it's clear?
20:50 VanessaE is*
20:50 sfan5 ^
20:50 sapier could help yes ... as I said if you do it it wont be a negative point ;-)
20:50 RealBadAngel lets add drawtypes.txt or something like that
20:50 sfan5 ^
20:50 RealBadAngel i can fill that with data
20:50 sfan5 VanessaE: do you like the feature I wrote today?
20:50 sapier just add it RealBadAngel
20:50 VanessaE sfan5: in fact, I do
20:50 sfan5 hm
20:50 sfan5 we should really make the doc more structured
20:51 sfan5 (something else instead of a single .txt)
20:51 sapier well I don't know about your feature sfan5 but the code cleanup is worth it :-)
20:51 VanessaE that much is true, but if you split it apart, it becomes harder to search
20:51 RealBadAngel then 1st lest make a folder for that
20:51 sapier no matter how you organize it it's gonna be wrong for someone ;-)
20:52 RealBadAngel true
20:52 sfan5 VanessaE: even this https://www.ffmpeg.org/ffmpeg-filters.html (from the structure, formatting) would be better than the current thing
20:52 sapier PA usually preferrs having all in one file ... I don't understand why he had issues with adding the drawtypes there too
20:53 RealBadAngel i dont quite get what PA is up to really
20:53 RealBadAngel he seems to just dont like ideas he havent invented
20:53 sfan5 hasn't*
20:53 sfan5 but ack
20:54 sapier that's called "not invented here syndrom" ... I sometimes suffer of same thing ... but usually try to get over it ;-)
20:54 RealBadAngel he just filled an issue that item_drop is not working anymore due to engine changes
20:55 RealBadAngel what a suprise
20:55 RealBadAngel modder suprised by engine changes. phenomenon
20:55 sfan5 ^
20:55 sapier he's right ... item_drop api is supposed to be stable
20:56 RealBadAngel hes not right by any meaning
20:56 sfan5 there is not item_drop api
20:56 RealBadAngel its just a simple mod
20:56 RealBadAngel and buggy as hell
20:56 RealBadAngel we have forked it and fixed long time ago
20:57 sapier still our goal is to not break old mods by new versions
20:57 sfan5 ^ no
20:57 RealBadAngel PA made some mods and took a nap, thinkin that once something is done its gonna last forever
20:57 sfan5 our goal is to try to do that
20:57 sfan5 but not hold a change back if it breaks mods
20:58 RealBadAngel we can try when its reasonable
20:58 sapier of course we hold back changes if they're to minor to add them one by one
20:58 RealBadAngel but old mods cannot be blockers for innovations
20:59 sapier that's not what I said
20:59 RealBadAngel you did
20:59 sfan5 ^
20:59 sapier nope
20:59 sapier holding back is not same as hold back forever
20:59 RealBadAngel you were defending PA and item drop
20:59 sapier yes because that change wasn't done on purpose or do you know why it's broken?
21:00 RealBadAngel i do exactly
21:00 RealBadAngel item physics has changed
21:00 RealBadAngel we do have now TTL
21:00 sapier those item merge things?
21:00 RealBadAngel merge hasnt affected it really
21:00 RealBadAngel TTL did
21:01 sapier for what I remember that's been added same time
21:01 RealBadAngel propably yes
21:01 RealBadAngel when im working on a file i try to group changes
21:01 sapier at least in my mind it's a part of that addon... but I could be wrong of course
21:03 sapier could you comment that issue and explain how to fix his mod?
21:03 RealBadAngel i linked PA to fixed one
21:04 RealBadAngel servers are running updated version for a few weeks already
21:04 sapier It'd be more polite to tell him what exactly is wrong ... or at least tell him where (line number(s)) to look for the fix
21:04 sapier unless that file is 10 lines only anyway ;-)
21:05 RealBadAngel hes just lazy last days, theres no excuse for that
21:05 sfan5 <sapier> It'd be more polite to tell him what exactly is wrong ... or at least tell him where (line number(s)) to look for the fix
21:06 sapier he's not the only one beeing lazy ;-)
21:06 RealBadAngel he deserves more than a kick in the ass to get the carts fixed at least
21:06 sfan5 it would have been more polite if the had told us exact details in the first time
21:06 sfan5 s/time/place/
21:06 sapier and he did and a lot of work for minetest please honor that fact
21:07 RealBadAngel last PA's activities are just complaining and blocking changes
21:07 RealBadAngel i do honor that
21:07 RealBadAngel but thats not an excuse to sit on golden throne
21:09 RealBadAngel when i add some new feature and see PA online i always try to link him the footage and ask for opinion
21:09 RealBadAngel 9/10 times he ignores that
21:10 RealBadAngel 1/10 he finds something dumb to comment
21:10 sapier well you have to accept ppl not having time or being busy doing rl things too
21:10 RealBadAngel like why using param2 for drawtype
21:10 RealBadAngel when he talks in the channel and not responding to my messages...
21:11 RealBadAngel what im supposed to think?
21:11 sapier obviously mt doesn't have priority for pa right now that may change in future .. or not but it's hard to predict
21:11 RealBadAngel that hes partially blind or something?
21:11 sapier well RealBadAngel sometimes I'm annoyed by your refusal to create pull requests too ;-P
21:12 RealBadAngel its not me, that dumb github mixes my pulls
21:13 sapier sorry rba bad excuse ;-)
21:13 RealBadAngel if i do have two open it tries to combine them into one pull, even when they come from different branches
21:13 sapier I don't have that issue
21:13 RealBadAngel i do
21:13 RealBadAngel and thats not me, just github web interface
21:13 VanessaE stop using that silly GUI app ;)
21:13 sapier most likely you do something different then me
21:13 RealBadAngel its not local issue
21:13 sapier gui app for github? bad idea
21:14 RealBadAngel good one, believe me
21:14 RealBadAngel web one sucks
21:16 sapier sorry but if it merges different pulls it's obviously not a good one ;-)
21:21 RealBadAngel thats not my client merging them
21:21 RealBadAngel clicking "compare and make a pull request" on website does it
21:21 sapier github is same for you and me so the difference must be on your side ;-)
21:22 RealBadAngel it fucking collects pulls from all the branches and makes one commit
21:22 sapier do you rebase your branch to master prior doing a pull?
21:23 RealBadAngel with each pull i do i update master, create a branch and apply changes there
21:23 RealBadAngel so i always work on up to date code
21:23 sapier your local github master or direct to minetest?
21:24 RealBadAngel see prv
21:25 RealBadAngel then i create new branch and apply patches to it
21:26 proller try merge
21:28 RealBadAngel ok i will
21:28 RealBadAngel meanwhile, i will open a pull with special tiles count change
21:29 RealBadAngel since it will require protocol bump, shall i include it?
21:29 RealBadAngel or it should be a subject for another pull?
21:33 sapier include it ... as well as min client version bump
21:34 RealBadAngel im not sure bout min version
21:34 RealBadAngel but ok
21:35 RealBadAngel ah, i just recalled one thing
21:35 RealBadAngel and that should be done prior to bumping imho
21:36 RealBadAngel i mean all the settings
21:36 RealBadAngel by now we use parser with calling for string
21:37 RealBadAngel we should do that once at startup and store all the settings in a single class
21:37 sapier in case we're doing this I'll update the stats pull too maybe we get all at once in
21:38 RealBadAngel reading the setting via its name in runtime draw loop, MANY times, its just braindead
21:38 sapier what value is read?
21:38 RealBadAngel all of them
21:38 RealBadAngel its a common rule
21:39 sapier I'm quite sure server port number isn't read in main draw loop of game so don't tell me "all of them"
21:40 sapier settings are read to memory
21:40 RealBadAngel for example, mapblock_mesh.cpp
21:40 RealBadAngel animate function, line #1256
21:40 RealBadAngel bool enable_shaders = g_settings->getBool("enable_shaders");
21:40 sapier I know this for sure because they're not saved in singleplayer
21:40 RealBadAngel why the fuck something like this instead: g_settings_enable_shaders
21:41 sapier no no no no
21:41 RealBadAngel and use it everywhere
21:41 sapier don't add hundreds of global variables
21:42 sapier if it's used in a draw loop read it once at begining but make it a local variable
21:42 RealBadAngel are you trying to say that calling for a variable with a string to find in draw loop is sane?
21:42 RealBadAngel i had such idea
21:42 sapier no but replacing once insane thing by another one doesn't improve things at all
21:42 RealBadAngel m_enable_shaders for example
21:43 RealBadAngel but that doesnt solve it globally
21:43 sapier and spill a pointer all around ... no
21:43 sapier we already have to many pointers which cause a lot of trouble
21:43 Exio joined #minetest-dev
21:44 RealBadAngel for example, enable_shaders is read 5 times already
21:44 sapier if it's read exactly 5 times that's not an issue
21:44 RealBadAngel 3 times in drawing loops
21:44 VanessaE sapier: if it's read in the middle of the render loop, horrible.
21:44 sapier then add local variables there
21:45 RealBadAngel and im taling bout this only setting
21:45 sapier as I said if it's exactly 5 times it can't be in a draw loop because then it's read infinite times
21:45 RealBadAngel game.cpp is even worse nest
21:46 sapier sorry RBA I have to leave now ... you're issue is valid for sure but I don't see any connection to 0.5 version
21:46 RealBadAngel i will just code that
21:46 RealBadAngel this is a bottleneck no matter what
21:46 sapier fine ... as long as you don't use global variable(s) or pointers for accessing some variable
21:47 RealBadAngel i will make settings class
21:47 paramat joined #minetest-dev
21:47 sapier RealBadAngel: there is a settings class
21:47 sapier and no don't create a settings class with hardcoded bools in there
21:47 RealBadAngel for holding 2 methods
21:47 RealBadAngel not the values
21:47 Exio isn't that a struct?
21:47 sapier no it's crap only
21:48 RealBadAngel :)
21:48 sapier I understand why rba thinks it's necessary, it's fast but as of code mainetenance and scalability it's crap
21:50 sapier we need to find something in between your highly optimized pov rba and the absolute abstraction used right now ;-)
21:52 paramat sfan5 here's an initial fix for boat mod https://github.com/minetest/minetest_​game/issues/291#issuecomment-50082696 work in progress, not asking for a merge yet
22:01 RealBadAngel speed and being nice its not the same
22:02 RealBadAngel and never walks in pairs
22:02 RealBadAngel while the maintenance and scalability is wise, thats true for everything but not game
22:03 RealBadAngel game needs speed
22:03 VanessaE sapier: coming from the oldskool of coding, I have to side with RealBadAngel a bit here.  don't sacrifice speed just for the sake of perceived maintainability
22:03 VanessaE sometimes, you have to put speed above all else, even if it results in sucky code.
22:03 RealBadAngel fast code is not sucky
22:03 sapier if you did look for as many dangling pointers and unknown sideeffected global variables I did by now you'd think different
22:04 RealBadAngel its a piece of art sometimes
22:04 VanessaE RealBadAngel: I mean as far as being able to read/maintain it.
22:04 RealBadAngel you would never understand some code i did for z80
22:04 RealBadAngel but i wont go such far this time ;)
22:05 sapier I see no reason why a variable shouldn't be read prior entering the loop ... even if it's 5 instead of one time that's not a significant difference
22:05 VanessaE and the same for stuff I did for the 6502, and I was not even *close* to the kickass sort of coder that the modern demo coders are on that processor
22:05 RealBadAngel entering the loop
22:05 RealBadAngel right
22:05 RealBadAngel but the definition of entering place is wrong
22:05 RealBadAngel it shall be start of the server
22:06 ImQ009 joined #minetest-dev
22:06 sapier I'm sorry to tell but server doesn't have anything to do with shaders ;-P
22:06 VanessaE sapier: point is, don't sit there doing string matches in code that needs speed.  do your string match once before the loop, then reference the matched result inside the loop.
22:06 sapier we're long past this point vanessae
22:06 RealBadAngel sapier ofc it does
22:07 RealBadAngel its performance killer, one of many
22:07 sapier Show me one line in Server.cpp using shaders
22:07 ImQ009 joined #minetest-dev
22:07 VanessaE sapier: we *should be* but we are not.
22:08 VanessaE sapier: it still being done and ain't fixed yet, I think that's RBA's point. :)
22:08 sapier VanessaE: stop discussing about parts of the fix we already have an agreement ;-P
22:08 VanessaE :P
22:09 RealBadAngel just grep for g_settings->
22:09 RealBadAngel then sit down and cry
22:10 RealBadAngel 311 times, mostly in game loop
22:10 sapier sorry to disappoint you rba but profiling doesn't confirm your assumptions ... not even on arm
22:10 VanessaE http://pastebin.com/zgfZ6xbQ
22:10 VanessaE fwiw. :)
22:10 sapier you may be right in theory theory is worth nothing without proove
22:11 RealBadAngel i will be right when i will have working repo without that shit
22:11 sapier and where's the issue? that grep shows we already use temporary variables for most of them
22:12 sapier don't fix imaginated problems RealBadAngel
22:12 VanessaE merely providing the results for commentary, sapier.
22:12 sapier if you believe this to be faster you have to proove it too
22:12 sapier none of my profiling runs did show any hotspot in settings
22:12 RealBadAngel sapier, if it happens to give me even 1 fps i will be right
22:13 sapier 1 fps would be a proove but 0.00001 fps wouldn't be
22:13 RealBadAngel any gain will be right
22:13 RealBadAngel no matter how big
22:13 sapier remember those fixes I made for android resulted in about 30% increase ... I doubt those few settings will result in anything close
22:14 RealBadAngel we are developing a game not spreadsheet
22:14 RealBadAngel are you aware what mapblock mesh speedup did?
22:14 sapier still developing in blind without having any way to validate your changes is useless work
22:14 sapier no as you didn't provide benchmarks ;-)
22:14 RealBadAngel i removed same shit outta draw loop
22:15 RealBadAngel i dont have to
22:15 RealBadAngel facts are speaking for themselves
22:15 sapier I don't know of any facts rba
22:15 RealBadAngel i can play with a few times bigger view distance
22:15 Exio joined #minetest-dev
22:15 RealBadAngel slower the box is, gain is bigger
22:15 sapier proller usually tells same ;-)
22:16 RealBadAngel it wasnt me who said that
22:16 sapier I don't know if you're right or not
22:16 RealBadAngel VE did
22:16 VanessaE sapier: I did.  the latest spate of changes stretched out my view range from ~135m to 240m at the same frame rate.
22:17 RealBadAngel and it such critical code space, i know what im doing
22:17 sapier well it's gonna be a quite simple check if this helps that much building it for android should result in significant improvement
22:17 VanessaE no clue how it'll affect android
22:17 RealBadAngel i usued to count tacts for each piece of code
22:17 VanessaE but these are CPU-build changes
22:17 sapier and I don't really doubt it might help as mesh generation was one of the hotspots I detected
22:17 RealBadAngel im a demoscene coder
22:17 VanessaE so it should help
22:18 RealBadAngel even loops should be sometimes avoided and translated into flow of code
22:18 sapier RealBadAngel: I know that's why I have to slow you down sometimes from using you (good working) hacks ... they still remain hacks
22:18 RealBadAngel game coding is way different than regular apps
22:19 RealBadAngel if you like to call it hacks let it be
22:19 sapier no it isn't ... I know you could write the graphics code way more efficient ... but then noone else could read it
22:19 sapier best code is worth nothing if there's noone to maintain
22:19 RealBadAngel im not pushing the limits
22:20 RealBadAngel while i could on the other hand
22:21 RealBadAngel but one thing i can promise you, whatever i spot related to strings, file access or something equally dumb in main loop it will be kicked outter space
22:21 sapier keep your fixes in a clean way ;-) meaning no global variables, no pointers ;-) ... nothing resulting in same things with different mechanisms ;-)
22:22 sapier I don't have any problems with moving those things out of draw loop ;-)
22:22 sapier good night
22:22 sapier left #minetest-dev
22:22 RealBadAngel ok, cya
22:56 paramat hmmmm quick question for you: http://irc.minetest.ru/min​etest/2014-07-19#i_3822026
22:57 hmmmm no that's not correct, the lua voxelmanip is literally a wrapper for the one that is used by the mapgen
23:09 paramat thanks, form printing emin emax
23:09 paramat oops sorry
23:10 paramat from printing emin emax during mapgen it seems to be 16 nodes larger than a chunk
23:10 hmmmm wait, by chunk size you mean the chunk that had been requested to load, or generate?
23:11 hmmmm requested to load from the map*
23:11 paramat 80^3 node chunk during on-generated mapgen
23:13 hmmmm yes, when a chunk is being generated by the mapgen a block-sized border surrounds the region to be generated
23:13 hmmmm this is so that caves and trees don't get cut off at the end of the chunk generation
23:14 paramat excellent, good feature
23:14 hmmmm emin and emax are the actual emerged min and max.  min and max is the region that actually got generated
23:14 hmmmm isn't this well documented already.....?
23:14 RealBadAngel hmmmm, could you somehow move jungle grass to lua side?
23:15 paramat perhaps i haven't seen your pages on the wiki
23:15 hmmmm what, in mapgen v6?
23:15 RealBadAngel yeah
23:16 hmmmm i actually can't
23:16 RealBadAngel i do have a problem with it
23:16 RealBadAngel thats the only plant made in core
23:17 hmmmm well
23:17 RealBadAngel i wanted to add rotations for it
23:17 hmmmm you'd need to add decoration support and therefore biome support to v6 in order to do that
23:18 VanessaE hmmmm: handle it the way the other grasses are handled?
23:18 hmmmm biomes are in a sad, sorry state
23:18 hmmmm I need to work more on it
23:19 RealBadAngel if so, cant we add a random to it by now?
23:19 hmmmm ?? random to what
23:19 hmmmm random facedir?
23:20 RealBadAngel plantlike drawtype can be rotated
23:20 VanessaE hmmmm: plantlike drawtype now supports rotation.
23:20 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/290
23:20 RealBadAngel this is for everything but jungle grass
23:21 CraigyDavi` joined #minetest-dev
23:23 RealBadAngel hmmmm, https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/2177790​/3638763/bde707d0-105f-11e4-8033-99a8811ff03c.png
23:30 hmmmm well
23:30 hmmmm I'll have to take a better look at what I can do
23:32 RealBadAngel ok, thx
23:33 RealBadAngel btw, whats the purpose of that? #define SERVER_PROTOCOL_VERSION_MIN 13
23:33 RealBadAngel same for client
23:34 RealBadAngel anything introduced after 13 will cause client to crash
23:34 RealBadAngel so whats the point for minimum version??
23:35 RealBadAngel for example: PROTOCOL_VERSION 14:
23:35 RealBadAngel Added transfer of player pressed keys to the server
23:36 RealBadAngel client with 13 is just unusable then
23:41 VanessaE hmmmm: port plants_lib ;-)
23:42 VanessaE seriously though, unless I screwed up, there's some code in an old version of plantlife that should be useful
23:42 VanessaE if you can produce a surface to put them on, it'll put the jungle grass in the same areas the existing C++ code does.

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