Time  Nick         Message
00:04 gentoobro    ok, thanks :)
10:06 sfan5        https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1510
10:06 sfan5        ^ comments please
10:13 Krock        +1
10:53 sfan5        BlockMen: any comments on #282 - #287 ? (at _game)
10:57 BlockMen     sfan5, 282 seems fine. 287 could cause crash when node is nil
10:58 sfan5        how about #282 - #286 ?
10:58 sfan5        I'll merge 282 now
10:59 sfan5        how about #282 - #286 ? -> how about the others?
11:00 Zefram_Fysh  the door code already relies on node definitions not being nil
11:00 Zefram_Fysh  that should probably be fixed; it's just not a new issue introduced by that patch
11:01 BlockMen     283, no; 284 yes; 285 yes; 286 yes
11:01 Zefram_Fysh  why no for 283?
11:02 Amaz         imo 283 doesn't make sense.
11:03 sfan5        merging the ones BlockMen said yes to.
11:03 Zefram_Fysh  the filled buckets are distinct inventory items, and are useful in creative mode.  why would they not be in the creative inventory?
11:03 BlockMen     creative inventory is already overstuffed
11:04 BlockMen     we need categories first (or something else to sort it) and then we can add more items
11:04 Zefram_Fysh  categorisation would be nice, sure
11:05 BlockMen     Zefram_Fysh, you can still convince nore and sfan5, then it goes in
11:05 sfan5        nore is not here ATM
11:05 sfan5        he told me we should not wait for his approval of things
11:05 Zefram_Fysh  ah, sporting
11:05 Zefram_Fysh  yeah, nore is on holiday
11:05 BlockMen     well, then for now no 283
11:05 Zefram_Fysh  sfan5: what is your opinion on 283?
11:06 sfan5        filled buckets in creative menu would make sense
11:07 Zefram_Fysh  nore has occasionally come online from holiday.  I'll try to catch him for at least a quick opinion
11:07 sfan5        and the {water,lava}_source nodes should probably get removed from the creative inv
11:07 Zefram_Fysh  thanks for your attention to these issues
11:09 Zefram_Fysh  I vacillate about the source nodes.  it is useful in creative mode, for some operations, to be able to take a stack of source nodes and place them directly.  but they're clearly in a different class from the rest of the inventory, as they're not items that should ever appear in inventory in the regular game
11:10 Zefram_Fysh  the status of "in creative inventory" is a bit overloaded.  unified_inventory uses it to decide which items should be visible for the survival-mode craft guide, which is kinda inevitable because there isn't any more specific flag for that
11:11 Zefram_Fysh  and I worry somewhat about creative inventory bloat, for things that would add tens of items to the creative inventory.  but I wouldn't worry about it for one-per-liquid-type filled bucket items
11:12 BlockMen     this time its 2 buckets, next time something else. the sum is the point ;)
11:12 Zefram_Fysh  in the technic game, I have an idea for uranium enrichment that would add about 50 grades of uranium metal, potentially each in dust, ingot, and block form.  *that's* a bloat worry
11:13 BlockMen     because somewhere else its even worse we dont make it bad
11:13 BlockMen     *need to make
11:13 sfan5        idea: creative inventory categories
11:14 Zefram_Fysh  true, but I don't think adding the filled buckets is making it bad at all.  the filled buckets are distinctly different items; the essence of bloat is to have explicit listing of items that are essentially repeating information
11:14 BlockMen     sfan5, feel free to add it
11:14 Zefram_Fysh  slab and stair and microblock items for each solid block type: that's bloat
11:18 Zefram_Fysh  what do you want to do on 287?  I can work up an additional patch that makes the door code generally robust against unregistered nodes.  or, the weaker option, I could do a new version of the pairing patch that just avoids repeating that vulnerability in the new code
11:21 BlockMen     https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/aebbcbf398a9dde6b2cbc8ab05c103f44f6f703d/builtin/game/misc.lua#L83
11:22 Zefram_Fysh  oh, that's convenient.  didn't know about that
11:22 Zefram_Fysh  will revise the patch
11:28 Zefram_Fysh  http://paste.scsys.co.uk/409107 is revised patch for #287
11:34 BlockMen     it should be ~= 0 since the function should return 1 if its a door
11:34 Zefram_Fysh  it was always a negated test
11:38 Zefram_Fysh  BlockMen: it was always a negated test.  the line being replaced has a "not"; the meaning of the line is "if pt3 isn't a (matching) door"
11:38 BlockMen     oh, right
11:38 BlockMen     sfan5, could you merge ^
11:39 sfan5        sure
11:40 Zefram_Fysh  thanks
11:44 Kalista      hey Blockmen i heard you got leveldb to compile from source in windows?
11:45 Kalista      I tried and ran into a few problems, was wondering if you had any specific tips/versions used to get the .lib compiled
11:45 BlockMen     Kalista, just search for leveldbwin
11:45 BlockMen     the download includes a msvc project file
11:46 Kalista      the vs2010 project file? might of got that version already
11:46 BlockMen     yes
11:46 sfan5        Kalista: I used the leveldb from here https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master/src/leveldb (just btw)
11:46 Kalista      i ran into a linker error with its .lib after linking it
11:49 Kalista      i upgraded the 2010 project to 2013 to match my IDE, then during compilation get 'error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol __imp__PathFileExistsW@4	C:\x\leveldb.lib(env_win.obj)	minetest'
11:49 BlockMen     what os are you using?
11:49 Kalista      win7 64bit
11:50 Kalista      trying to build 32bit bin
11:50 BlockMen     hmm...have you been using multithreaded (/MT) codegeneration for the lib?
11:50 Kalista      ill double check
11:51 Kalista      set to Multi-threaded Debug DLL (/MDd)
11:51 Kalista      should i recompile with MT?
11:52 BlockMen     yes
11:52 Kalista      kk trying now :)
11:54 Kalista      same error, file was the same size too so maybe it was already /MT
11:55 Kalista      oh wait i made a debug .lib
11:55 Kalista      retrying with release
11:57 Kalista      nope still LNK2001 error :/
12:04 BlockMen     do you get the link error when trying to compile minetest with leveldb or when compiling leveldb
12:04 Kalista      compiling minetest with leveldb, leveldb compiles file
12:06 BlockMen     could you show me all your additional dependencies for linker input?
15:35 ShadowNinja  ''tell BlockMen I removed the collision detection a while ago, or at least removed the property, so unless it defaults to true it should be disabled. *checks*
15:35 HLuaBot      I'll tell that to "BlockMen" next time I see them around.
15:36 ShadowNinja  celeron55: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7831616/
15:36 celeron55    maybe you can fix it
15:42 ShadowNinja  celeron55: Maybe, but I don't know much about how launchpad works, so I might just break all the builds.
15:42 ShadowNinja  Comments? (better non-freetype font)  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1427
15:42 Krock        ^ don't know about license
15:43 celeron55    ShadowNinja: me neither
15:43 celeron55    launchpad is basically working on pure luck by now
15:44 celeron55    there was some reason why the stable build was locked to a version
15:45 celeron55    i don't remember what it was; someone maintaining it at that time made it so
15:46 celeron55    i guess the same person who committed the stuff in packaging?
15:46 celeron55    https://code.launchpad.net/~minetestdevs/minetest-c55/packaging
15:48 celeron55    http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2014-03-25
15:48 celeron55    looks like he is called spillz on IRC
15:49 celeron55    (found this by searching "minetest launchpad gettext site:irc.minetest.ru #minetest-dev" on duckduckgo.com)
16:12 Calinou      Krock, isn't it the same?
16:13 Krock        Calinou, I think, it's LGPL but it's a font...
16:13 Calinou      it's the same if you didn't changed stuff substantially
16:14 Krock        ok
16:14 ShadowNinja  Krock: Where did you get that font?  Did you make it yourself?
16:14 Krock        ShadowNinja, it's an edited .png file
16:14 Krock        already contain in the minetest project
16:17 ShadowNinja  Krock: Same license then.
16:17 Krock        fine. I just was a little confused about the source of that font
16:19 Calinou      likely from Irrlicht
16:51 ShadowNinja  Hmmm, there are two ways to implement case-insensitive player names, but one might not work.  The player name has to keep it's proper case, because mods do case-sensitive checks and otherwise chests, areas and the like will only work when you connect with the correct case.  However, does the client depend on it's player name?  If a player connects as sHaDoWnInJa can I forcibly change the name to
16:51 ShadowNinja  ShadowNinja on the server without there being any issues?
16:51 sfan5        https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1510
16:52 sfan5        ^ comments please
16:52 ShadowNinja  If not, we'll have a pseudo-case-insensitivity where you can only connect with the right case.
16:52 ShadowNinja  sfan5: Done.
17:04 ShadowNinja  celeron55: Do you know if changing the playername on the server will affect anything?
17:13 ShadowNinja  Well, if it doesn't I might have a working case-insensitive-playername patch soon...
17:16 Zefram_Fysh  the sensible way to be case-insensitive is to fold all strings to canonical case (usually lowercase), so that you're not preserving distinctions that you've decided don't make a difference
17:18 Zefram_Fysh  I wouldn't object terribly to names being fully case insensitive, but please don't give us a bastardised sometimes-case-insensitive-sometimes-case-sensitive (aka "case-insensitive-but-case-preserving") system
17:29 ShadowNinja  -_- Using the player name as the salt is being wonderfully helpfull.
17:30 ShadowNinja  Zefram_Fysh: That's exactly what I intend to do.  Like IRC does, but with persistence and some semplance of compatability.
17:31 Zefram_Fysh  you will not succeed in maintaining compatibility unless you fully separate the concepts of internal name and display name
17:32 Zefram_Fysh  that's the only way to prevent the "preserved" case screwing up normal string operations on the true name
17:33 celeron55    hmm, this is pretty hard actually
17:34 celeron55    doing it adequately could be practically impossible
17:35 celeron55    even with completely discarding compatibility it would be stupidly hard to get mods work like players would expect
17:37 ShadowNinja  celeron55: Minetest's braindead hashing makes it impossible to do anything much better than https://github.com/ShadowNinja/name_restrictions/blob/master/init.lua#L40-L73
17:37 ShadowNinja  (Must connect with proper casing)
17:37 celeron55    braindead hashing?
17:37 sfan5        <ShadowNinja> -_- Using the player name as the salt is being wonderfully helpfull.
17:38 ShadowNinja  celeron55: hash = sha1(password + name);
17:38 sfan5        better than no salt
17:38 celeron55    that's not braindead
17:38 celeron55    it's just incompatible with this thing
17:40 ShadowNinja  celeron55: The proper way to do it is with a long random string and a seperately transmitted salt.
17:40 celeron55    so?
17:41 Zefram_Fysh  name as salt isn't a great choice generally, it's just a lot better than having no salt at all
17:41 celeron55    i'm not going to continue arguing about this; it is what it is and you can't change history
17:41 ShadowNinja  But the sent hash and the hash in our Auth table may differ and still be for the same password.
17:42 sfan5        the auth system wasn't designed with case-insensetivity in mind
17:43 ShadowNinja  So, for case-insensitive player names we've got that mod, that's about as smart as it gets.
17:45 Zefram_Fysh  the issue you run into here is generally of the form that you can't have different parts of the system disagree about which distinctions (case distinctions here) are significant.  IRC gets away with case preservation because it was always so, so everything that talks IRC (at least in theory) knows to treat names that way.  you can't retrofit case insensitivity
17:47 ShadowNinja  Zefram_Fysh: You can by forcibly changing the name of the player when they connect to the proper case, if you don't salt the password with the playername.
17:47 celeron55    we could make this work so that for all new hashes, a special character is prepended to the hash in auth.txt to mean that it is made using a lowercase name; also we will add the hash generated using lowercased name in TOCLIENT_INIT as a new field
17:47 celeron55    i mean
17:47 celeron55    TOSERVER_INIT
17:47 celeron55    then this allows us to move forward with this during the next versions
17:48 Zefram_Fysh  you've got here a disagreement between the auth system and your new code about case sensitivity.  that's firmly in the class of problem that I mentioned.  if you overcome that, you'll run into an unlimited number of similar disagreements with existing mod code
17:48 ShadowNinja  celeron55: Better yet, don't hash with the player name at all.
17:49 Krock        I got an idea about case insensitive names: create file "renamed.mt", rename all players/* files to lowercase, after then, only use lowercase of each name to open that file
17:49 celeron55    ShadowNinja: in that case please write a full proposal of how to rework the password hashing scheme
17:49 celeron55    ShadowNinja: and when agreed, then implement it
17:49 celeron55    of course we could just push this to 0.5 and do it in an incompatible way; but 0.5 can be even years awayy
17:49 celeron55    -y
17:50 ShadowNinja  celeron55: salt = random_bytes(); hash = sha1(password + salt) + "$" + salt;
17:50 celeron55    yes, then the network protocol please
17:51 celeron55    you need to send the salt to the client at some point, and at the moment that point does not exist
17:51 celeron55    there is no packet moving before TOSERVER_INIT
17:51 ShadowNinja  That needs work, because the strings are sent with a fixed size.  You'll have to add another saly field to TOSERVER_INIT.
17:51 celeron55    the client can't generate the salt because the salt has to be grabbed from the server's storage
17:51 ShadowNinja  I'd rather just redo this incompatibly in 0.5 though.
17:52 sfan5        ^
17:52 celeron55    do you feel like starting to implement it now?
17:53 celeron55    i've been fine with the idea of somebody starting an official 0.5 branch for a long time already
17:53 sfan5        BTW: minetest.net could use some new screenshots
17:53 ShadowNinja  Hmmm, yes, the client needs the salt, which means that it would have to send the password in TOSERVER_INIT@ or similar.
17:54 ShadowNinja  INIT2*
18:02 * VanessaE   shudders at the thought of starting the 0.5 branch
18:02 Exio         there have been
18:02 Exio         like, a lot of "start 0.5 branch, why not"
18:04 ShadowNinja  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1511
18:04 ShadowNinja  ^ Fully compatible, but not ideal.
18:04 Zefram_Fysh  actually, looking at the way you use hashing, the salt isn't winning you anything at all
18:05 Zefram_Fysh  the only benefit you get from the hashing is to force the password's entropy into a fixed size
18:05 sfan5        are you saying we shouldn't hash passwords?
18:05 Zefram_Fysh  you might as well hash with no salt at all
18:05 sfan5        nope
18:05 sfan5        that makes brute-force even easier
18:05 sfan5        -> rainbow tables
18:06 Zefram_Fysh  I'm not saying you shouldn't hash passwords.  the issue is that you're not using hashing in the way that's normally reckoned to be helpful
18:06 Zefram_Fysh  as things stand, there's no need for an attacker to brute-force or otherwise reverse the hash
18:06 sfan5        we shouldn't use sha1 for passwords anyway
18:06 sfan5        uh, why?
18:06 VanessaE     sfan5: AES or blowfish then?
18:07 Zefram_Fysh  if an attacker swipes the hash from a server's password database, all he needs to send to login is the captured hash
18:07 ShadowNinja  VanessaE: SHA256 or 512.
18:07 sfan5        VanessaE: thats not a hashing function
18:07 sfan5        VanessaE: bcrypt
18:07 sfan5        ShadowNinja: no
18:07 sfan5        Zefram_Fysh: no
18:07 ShadowNinja  SHA1 was deprecated for password hashing a while ago.
18:07 VanessaE     I know, but I thought I'd read somewhere that those two could be used for the purpose.
18:07 VanessaE     sha256?  bad idea I think.
18:07 Krock        md5?
18:07 VanessaE     md5? O_o
18:07 VanessaE     you're kidding, right?
18:08 Krock        don't know. but it hashes
18:08 sfan5        Zefram_Fysh: IIRC passwords are sha1(name + sha1(password)) with the sha1(password) coming from the client
18:08 sfan5        Krock: gtfo
18:08 VanessaE     md5 is, as I understand, somewhat trivial to reverse now.
18:08 sfan5        http://codahale.com/how-to-safely-store-a-password/
18:08 Zefram_Fysh  the way password hashing is normally done, the way that's really useful for security, is that the client needs to send the actual password, and the server hashes it and compares that to the stored hash.  that requires that an attacker who swiped the hash reverse the hash.  what you've done is that the client sends the hash, so the server has no proof that the client knows the password, only that he knows the hash
18:09 sfan5        Zefram_Fysh: no, see what I said
18:09 VanessaE     "You can use huge salts or many salts or hand-harvested, shade-grown, organic Himalayan pink salt."  <-- plol
18:10 celeron55    Zefram_Fysh: yeah, that is true; it doesn't make much sense to do anything more special than the current thing when we have no encryption
18:10 celeron55    and encryption doesn't make sense unless we have certificates
18:10 celeron55    and it gets kind of totally over the top
18:10 VanessaE     celeron55: but if you go that route, what good are passwords at all then?
18:10 Zefram_Fysh  sfan5: src/server.cpp around line 1570 appears to just compare the supplied value against stored value, without performing a hashing operation
18:10 celeron55    VanessaE: just as good for any https web service?
18:10 celeron55    +as
18:10 VanessaE     celeron55: nononono
18:11 ShadowNinja  Zefram_Fysh: Correct.  The client sends the hash the first time and it's compared on every subsequest connection.
18:11 VanessaE     celeron55: I mean as in how some other games do it, where you supply a name, and the game/server generate and exchange a cert and THAT is serves as the user's credentials in the future
18:11 VanessaE     I forget exactly which games - maybe some Quake/OA derivatives.
18:11 sfan5        VanessaE: how mumble does it?
18:11 VanessaE     sfan5: maybe the same
18:12 ShadowNinja  sfan5: You don't need the password, you just need the hash and an appropriatly modified client.
18:12 sfan5        ShadowNinja: last time I checked it wasn't like that
18:12 ShadowNinja  VanessaE: The problem with that is that users have to keep track of their cert.
18:12 VanessaE     jeez, my english sucks.
18:13 ShadowNinja  sfan5: Check again.
18:13 VanessaE     ShadowNinja: apparently, the games in question do that automagically.
18:13 sfan5        ShadowNinja: currently doing
18:13 ShadowNinja  VanessaE: How?
18:13 VanessaE     ShadowNinja: beats me how.  I've never looked into it in great detail
18:14 Zefram_Fysh  celeron55: proper password hashing is still useful in the absence of encryption, as it tackles a major threat model (hash spied from static storage), even though it doesn't tackle another major threat model (password sniffed in transit)
18:14 Zefram_Fysh  also, encryption is still useful without certs, as it tackles passive sniffing, even though it doesn't tackle MitM
18:14 VanessaE     I'm surprised sapier isn't here right now ;()
18:14 ShadowNinja  I don't see how that's possible.  But SSL/TLS doesn't require you to explictly provide a custom cert, it can make one for you for the duration of the connection.
18:14 VanessaE     ;)  he loves these security discussions
18:16 VanessaE     ShadowNinja: well it's not like the user needs to know where their key files are stored
18:16 ShadowNinja  Zefram_Fysh: The server could optionally have a custom cert, and on connect you could see something like "this server's certificate fingerprint is 11:22:33:44 do you trust it?".
18:16 VanessaE     I mean, honestly, they don't.
18:16 ShadowNinja  VanessaE: But what if I switch computers?
18:17 VanessaE     ShadowNinja: THEN you can copy your keys over.  Surely it would be documented?
18:17 Zefram_Fysh  SN: yes, there are many options along those lines.  having certs would be sensible, and the ssh behaviour of picking up public key on first contact to check all later contacts is sensible
18:17 VanessaE     just as when you copy your worlds, mods, etc etc etc over to the new machine
18:17 ShadowNinja  VanessaE: Too much work for users, too easy to lose your accounts.
18:17 VanessaE     ShadowNinja: tell that to the users who play the games I mentioned
18:18 VanessaE     apparently it's not that big a deal in practice
18:18 PenguinDad   VanessaE: but what would happen if you accidentally delete your cert?
18:18 celeron55    VanessaE: that's a client-side certificate then
18:18 VanessaE     or maybe there's a graceful way to recover one's keys?
18:18 celeron55    VanessaE: it's an additional thing to what i described
18:18 celeron55    VanessaE: i was talking about a server certificate so that the client can trust the server
18:18 ShadowNinja  VanessaE: I connect from multiple devices, including my tablet(s), and I don't want to have to copy an SSL cert to all of them.
18:18 VanessaE     celeron55: ah, ok.  different issue then
18:18 celeron55    or, maybe just a key pair
18:18 celeron55    but something like that anyway
18:19 VanessaE     PenguinDad: I don't know.  I'm no security expert but come on, there are people who figured this stuff out long ago.  doesn't matter, c55 was talking about something else anyways
18:19 sfan5        ShadowNinja: you were right. last time I tried this with a modified client it didn't work
18:19 VanessaE     (or rather a different part of the same problem)
18:20 * VanessaE   shrugs
18:20 VanessaE     I'll shut up now
18:22 Calinou      <VanessaE> I forget exactly which games - maybe some Quake/OA derivatives.
18:22 Calinou      it uses GUID (globally unique ID)
18:22 Calinou      it's quite evadable and fakable
18:22 Calinou      <sfan5> VanessaE: how mumble does it?
18:23 Calinou      certificates, self-signed, automatic generation
18:23 Calinou      worth as much as a dirt block
18:23 sfan5        hm?
18:23 sfan5        care to explain why?
18:23 Calinou      self-signed and automatically generated
18:23 Calinou      it's exactly how certificates are not meant to be used
18:23 sfan5        who cares about that
18:24 sfan5        [citation needed]
18:24 sfan5        as long as the server checks the certificate against a know cert
18:24 sfan5        it doesn't matter whether self-signed or not
18:28 ShadowNinja  TLS would be good, but that depends on TCP.  This is all best done in 0.5 to avoid compatability headaces or even impossibilities.
18:29 sfan5        ShadowNinja: dts
18:29 sfan5        dtls*
18:29 VanessaE     now how about something new... this just came up:  http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7837622/
18:30 sfan5        this is not useful without a backtrace
18:30 VanessaE     that's all I got, sorry.
18:33 VanessaE     (you know I'd have produced a backtrace had that been running in gdb or so)
18:44 VanessaE     I've got it loaded in gdb for the next time though.
18:45 VanessaE     one thing I have noticed is rather high CPU usage lately.  can't pin down why
19:24 fireglow     http://bpaste.net/show/T5cQ4vnJuYGDms2vlI4C/
19:25 VanessaE     https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1270
19:27 VanessaE     fireglow: ^^^
19:27 VanessaE     bbl
20:15 luizrpgluiz  hi devs
21:14 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/290
21:17 VanessaE     RealBadAngel: line 327, make it math.random(90)
21:17 RealBadAngel i picked 180 to be able to flip the plant
21:17 Zefram_Fysh  math.random has inclusive bounds, so math.random(0, 180) has 181 possible outputs, including both 0 and 180.  that's not what you want
21:18 VanessaE     RealBadAngel: turning it 180 will flip the textures?
21:18 Zefram_Fysh  you want math.random(0, 179) or math.random(0, 89)
21:18 RealBadAngel Zefram_Fysh, doesnt really matter
21:19 Zefram_Fysh  it's easy to get it right
21:19 VanessaE     RealBadAngel: then use math.random(180)
21:19 VanessaE     you don't need the 1,
21:19 VanessaE     er 0,
21:19 Zefram_Fysh  math.random(180) is equivalent to math.random(1, 180).  that's also a correct approach, if you're not fussy about where you wrap
21:20 VanessaE     since you already offset them by 1 degree anyway to avoid the z-fighting glitch, m.r(180) would be just as good
21:25 RealBadAngel i made it 0,179
21:26 RealBadAngel it afftects dry shrubs, grass, flowers, wheat, papyrus
21:26 RealBadAngel and ofc not the jungle grass
21:26 VanessaE     cotton too
21:27 VanessaE     if you change wheat, don't forget to change cotton to follow.
21:28 VanessaE     though in this case I guess you already did
21:28 RealBadAngel yeah
21:28 Zefram_Fysh  is the change of an ABM from interval=90 chance=2 to interval=2 chance=90 intentional?  it seems unrelated to the rotation
21:28 RealBadAngel ouch
21:28 RealBadAngel thats a mistake
21:29 VanessaE     haha
21:29 VanessaE     good catch, Zefram_Fysh
21:30 RealBadAngel i was testing that and messed values when restoring defaults ;)
21:33 RealBadAngel VanessaE, with 180 deg whole the plant will be flipped just
21:34 RealBadAngel it applies to vertices and texture will follow
21:34 VanessaE     ahh
21:34 VanessaE     ok then 180 ist is.
21:34 VanessaE     it is*
21:34 Zefram_Fysh  with an asymmetric texture, wouldn't a rotation of 181 deg be different from a rotation of 1 deg?
21:35 Zefram_Fysh  I think you need a 360 deg range to cover all visually distinct possibilities
21:35 RealBadAngel i cant
21:35 RealBadAngel param2 is u8
21:35 VanessaE     Zefram_Fysh: 8 bits.
21:35 Zefram_Fysh  oh, of course
21:35 VanessaE     besides, plantlike drawtype has some mirroring anyway
21:36 Zefram_Fysh  you could scale so that the unit is 2 deg, so that param2 in [0, 180) covers a 360 deg range
21:36 Zefram_Fysh  or make the unit 360/256 deg, so that param2 in [0, 256) covers 360 deg
21:36 RealBadAngel is that really needed?
21:37 Zefram_Fysh  if you rely on mirror symmetry, then surely the relevant rotational symmetry is four-way, because of the crossed polygons of plantlike drawtype, in which case you only want a 90 deg range, not 180 deg
21:37 RealBadAngel we dont wanna make plants smoothly animate, we want them to be some random
21:37 Zefram_Fysh  absent mirror symmetry, covering the full 360 deg range is not necessary, it just produces a better result
21:38 RealBadAngel and 180 for sure, textures are asymetric
21:38 RealBadAngel 90 would be correct for symetric texture
21:39 Zefram_Fysh  using as small a rotation unit as possible is also not necessary, just produces a fractionally better result, making better use of the available resources (the u8)
21:39 Zefram_Fysh  there's nothing magical about the degree as a unit
21:40 RealBadAngel and theres no need to add some magical code to scale it in draw loop
21:40 Zefram_Fysh  oh, but there is
21:41 Zefram_Fysh  if param2 is denominated in degrees, then it *does* have to be scaled
21:41 RealBadAngel no
21:41 RealBadAngel its just adding the value
21:41 luizrpgluiz  devs, what programs do I need to do my first mod for minetest?
21:41 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/9dc8901e32fcf875c2b3bc52c2dec6b03a29bf37
21:41 Zefram_Fysh  adding to a value that then gets scaled?
21:42 RealBadAngel it doesnt get scaled or whatever
21:42 VanessaE     luizrpgluiz: a text editor, an image editor, and minetest.
21:42 luizrpgluiz  But which one? have a good program that can recommend me to use?
21:42 VanessaE     luizrpgluiz: I use gedit and sometimes nano
21:43 VanessaE     RealBadAngel uses geany
21:43 VanessaE     some folks are happy with notepad++ or whatever it's called
21:43 Zefram_Fysh  rotateXZBy is obviously doing some scaling internally
21:43 RealBadAngel but thats not our concern, its irrlicht
21:44 luizrpgluiz  and to draw the blocks?
21:44 VanessaE     luizrpgluiz: you specify the blocks in your code by telling the engine what draw type you want to use.
21:44 Zefram_Fysh  anyway, if you insist on using a degree-denominated API, you can have the unit be 2 deg, with "+ n.param2 * 2", and on x86 that's exactly the same cost as "+ n.param2".  that's cheap scaling
21:45 VanessaE     luizrpgluiz: i.e. you tell the engine that a given node is a cube, or a plantlike, or flat, or one of a number of others
21:45 VanessaE     and you tell it what the properties are of that node, such as how much light it projects (if any), what groups its in, its name, and a whole host of other things
21:45 VanessaE     supply textures to it
21:46 VanessaE     and the engine does the rest
21:46 VanessaE     later on you can tell the engine to execute pieces of code in response to your node being punched, right clicked, etc.
21:48 VanessaE     RealBadAngel: he does have a point - if the processor won't run any slower with a multiplier/shift operation added, you may as well designate it in 2-degree increments.
21:50 Zefram_Fysh  it's the LEA (load effective address) instruction.  you get an addition of up to two registers, one of them optionally shifted left by up to 3 bits, and a constant, all in one instruction that executes in one tick
21:50 Zefram_Fysh  CISC, eh
21:53 RealBadAngel please explain me what for?
21:54 Zefram_Fysh  so that the range of possible plant rotations covers the full circle
21:54 RealBadAngel 180 degs cover whole circle
21:54 Zefram_Fysh  no, 180 deg covers half a circle
21:54 RealBadAngel remember that texture is 2 sided
21:55 VanessaE     RealBadAngel: yeah, but the other side is mirrored.
21:55 RealBadAngel back of it will come in front
21:55 RealBadAngel exactly
21:55 VanessaE     I mean left-to-right mirrored.
21:55 Zefram_Fysh  if you ignore asymmetry of the texture, then the fact that the texture is shown in two places 90 deg apart means that 90 deg range would effectively cover the whole circle
21:56 RealBadAngel but most of the textures are asymmetric
21:56 Zefram_Fysh  if asymmetry applies, then you need 360 deg.  neither way is 180 deg both necessary and sufficient
21:56 RealBadAngel its good enough
21:57 Zefram_Fysh  try it out with a temporary very-asymmetric texture.  try to get a screenshot showing plants covering the whole 360 deg at intervals of 30 deg
21:57 RealBadAngel as i said its used to randomize stuff, not for smooth animations of plants
21:58 RealBadAngel nobody will walk around and check if flowers in the world does rotate in full circle
21:58 Zefram_Fysh  the randomisation would be appreciably better if it covered the whole range.  not attempting smooth animation is exactly why a 2 deg step will be fine
21:59 Zefram_Fysh  as for "good enough", the game is good enough without this param2 rotation at all
21:59 RealBadAngel no its not
21:59 luizrpgluiz  I want to create a biome using the blocks game
21:59 RealBadAngel all the plants in the row look the same
22:00 RealBadAngel and thats not any good
22:00 Zefram_Fysh  it doesn't affect gameplay.  it's only cosmetic
22:00 VanessaE     luizrpgluiz: can you be more specific?
22:00 RealBadAngel like almost everything i code in the engine lately
22:01 luizrpgluiz  I looked a mod minecraft with giant trees using the blocks game
22:01 VanessaE     luizrpgluiz: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=4394
22:02 RealBadAngel if you doesnt care bout it make flowers full nodes ;)
22:02 RealBadAngel no rotations or whatever needed, funcionality will remain the same
22:03 Zefram_Fysh  I do like the game to look better than what is merely good enough.  as do you
22:03 luizrpgluiz  yes, bad blocks using the game itself without using other dependencies
22:04 VanessaE     RealBadAngel, Zefram_Fysh all of this aside, what about the placement of the orthogonal textures?  Would a rotation of +90 look the same as 180?
22:05 Zefram_Fysh  no
22:05 VanessaE     luizrpgluiz: you could always code your own game or mod to do the same thing but why re-invent the wheel?
22:06 Zefram_Fysh  looking at the node, you can pick out, for example, the right-hand sides of each instance of the texture.  the combination of the two uniquely identifies a quadrant of the node
22:06 VanessaE     Zefram_Fysh: good point
22:06 Zefram_Fysh  if you rotate that by 90 deg, you have textures in the same planes, but one of them the opposite way round
22:09 luizrpgluiz  is not it, what I want is to create new biomes using blocks minetest own, such as a biome where trees have one on top of another
22:12 VanessaE     luizrpgluiz: well that should be easy enough to code.
22:14 luizrpgluiz  yes
23:11 Jordach      apparently minetestserver is not detecting existing games with --gameid <gameid>