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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-07-17

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Time Nick Message
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01:48 Miner_48er kaeza any additional info you need to help with that xban2 issue?
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05:42 ShadowNinja ''tell sapier That bug isn't reproducable AFAIK, send me any debug info you can get on it, but it may be beyond my understanding.  Also, I'd suggest using distance instead of time for the movement prediction patch to make it more precise.
05:42 HLuaBot I'll tell that to "sapier" next time I see them around.
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08:50 Calinou how sane is it to use “dedicated_server_step = 0.01"?
08:53 celeron55 if you want 100% CPU consumption, i guess that's quite effective
08:55 Calinou https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.p​hp?f=3&t=9766&p=148708#p148684
08:55 Calinou this guy's server seems to defy logic then
08:57 celeron55 it depends on player count of course
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11:09 Megaf Minetest is segfaulting so often now a days that we have a server named Meowtest "SEGFAULTY"
11:10 Megaf and as we know, segfault means code error
11:11 Megaf 19:05:24: ACTION[ServerThread]: FireStar places node wool:red at (479,16,56)
11:11 Megaf Segmentation fault
11:14 VanessaE ...
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13:42 RealBadAngel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixgAxnBTIi4
13:42 RealBadAngel any objections on adding param2 to plantlike?
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14:09 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixgAxnBTIi4
14:10 RealBadAngel how do you like it?
14:18 PilzAdam why param2? and why are the plants flipping when being placed?
14:19 RealBadAngel param2 because its made for things like that, and flipping because i just modified grass def, with after_place
14:20 PilzAdam what are "things like that"?
14:20 RealBadAngel modifiers
14:20 Zefram_Fysh in this case controlling the rotation?
14:20 RealBadAngel its just additional variable we can use
14:20 RealBadAngel code for that is dead simple
14:20 RealBadAngel 2 lines in core modified
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14:25 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blo​b/master/src/content_mapblock.cpp#L1119 ---> http://pastebin.com/m9jdAdrY
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14:41 PenguinDad PilzAdam: #802 seems to be fixed
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16:19 Krock again
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16:19 Krock wtf
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16:39 paramat RealBadAngel, i made this issue to remind you ;) https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1462
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17:04 sapier ShadowNinja: Time is already present in engine, distance would've to be calculated separate and as I mentioned in discussion on minetest would introduce quite some new ways to get inconsistent states.
17:04 sapier For a bug not beeing reproduceable I had it quite often yesterday .. guess about 40 times
17:04 sapier within only a few hours
17:05 sapier I wasn't able to exactly locate it but it somehow seems to be related to punching and dieing
17:06 sapier another important thing may be that there's no player involved
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17:13 sapier megaf could you try to find out what is done to do the segfault? or run in debugger so we get a backtrace
17:18 Megaf sapier; it happens miliseconds after you start minetest
17:18 Megaf or right after you put your password and press login
17:22 sapier no it doesn't
17:23 sapier just tried didn't happen (for me)
17:32 paramat Here are 2 proposals for improving my wieldhand texture https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/266
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17:44 Calinou “mgv6_freq_desert = 0.4” is lower more deserts or less?!
17:44 Calinou I want a world with a lot of beaches, but less deserts
18:01 RealBadAngel bump: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blo​b/master/src/content_mapblock.cpp#L1119 ---> http://pastebin.com/m9jdAdrY
18:02 RealBadAngel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixgAxnBTIi4
18:02 RealBadAngel any objections? :)
18:03 sapier I don't like "this video isn't available" ;-)
18:04 Calinou mgv6_np_beach = 0, 1, (250, 250, 250), 59420, 3, 0.5 → WTF does each setting mean?
18:04 Calinou many values have a similar formatting
18:04 RealBadAngel sapier, ?
18:05 sapier hmm ok youtube isn't kompatible to conqueror only
18:05 sapier what exactly is the change?
18:06 RealBadAngel make plantlike twisted by holding additional angle in param2
18:06 RealBadAngel 0 - no change, current behaviour
18:06 sapier what's param2 usually used for?
18:06 RealBadAngel many things
18:07 RealBadAngel level, 6dfacedir, wallmounted dir
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18:08 sapier so it's not abusing it
18:08 RealBadAngel each drawtype can do with it whatever it wants to
18:08 RealBadAngel plantlike had no use for it before
18:09 sapier well I'd suggest to ask someone else too but I don't see a reason not to add it by now
18:10 RealBadAngel ok
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18:19 RealBadAngel and what about https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1487 ?
18:21 sapier RBA I always wonder why you have to mix in behaviour changes to commits telling something different
18:22 sapier e.g. the contrast changes... I don't know if they're good or bad I only no they're irrelevant for speed
18:22 RealBadAngel see the changes
18:22 RealBadAngel theres no sqrt and x*x there anymore
18:23 RealBadAngel takin that it was calculated for each vertex, its a speedup, dont you think?
18:24 sapier sounds even worse you change the behaviour of a function while keeping signature identical ...
18:25 RealBadAngel contrast?
18:26 RealBadAngel it does exactly the same thing as before
18:26 sapier not for what I understand
18:27 sapier sqrt(0.3) != 0.4
18:28 RealBadAngel that idiotic pow and sqrt wasnt my idea, and is completely wrong
18:28 sapier possible so if you do understand what's done there please explain
18:29 sapier right now the only thing I can tell for sure it's not a format change only but really changes value
18:31 RealBadAngel http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/docu/​_s_vertex_manipulator_8h_source.html
18:31 RealBadAngel see line #97
18:32 RealBadAngel this is used only to apply faces shading, so simple contrast change
18:33 RealBadAngel before there was used SRGB to linear color change so color^2 * factor, then sqrt to get modified value back
18:33 sapier So what's the result of that change? for what I see it's for 0.3 -> 0.4 effectively changing 0.55->0.4
18:34 sapier I don't know the range of that value
18:34 RealBadAngel it doesnt really matter if result gonna be slightly different
18:34 sapier if it's 0-100 that change is most likely irrelevant but if it's 0-1 it's more then significant
18:34 RealBadAngel its used only to make top brighter and faces darker
18:35 sapier so we will have more or less contrast?
18:35 RealBadAngel you wont notice a difference
18:35 RealBadAngel just check it out
18:35 sapier where do I have to look at?
18:36 RealBadAngel fire up the game with patch
18:36 RealBadAngel and look around
18:36 RealBadAngel it affects all the nodes you can see
18:37 sapier ok I'll do some screenshots ... hopefully you're right, if not I'll not be amused as it'd be your job to mention significant changes and not silently hide them in a "performance improvement" commit
18:38 RealBadAngel i cant see any difference, sfan5 and VanessaE neither
18:38 sapier possible as I said if range of that value is big enough nothing will happen
18:38 sfan5 if you put before/after side-by-side you can see a small diff
18:38 RealBadAngel propably yes
18:38 sfan5 you won't notice otherwise
18:39 sapier well I don't care about small changes what I don't like is them not beeing mentioned
18:40 sapier because sometimes they aren't as small as they seem to be in some special cases
18:41 VanessaE I certainly didn't notice a change when I tested his patch before, only a very slight performance improvement (marginal, hard to be sure if there was any improvement)
18:41 VanessaE certainly wasn't any *loss*
18:41 RealBadAngel you have fast box
18:41 RealBadAngel for me gain is huge
18:41 RealBadAngel 2x better view distance at least
18:42 VanessaE yeah but Minetest is heavily CPU-bound for me, any improvements in FPS etc are gonna have to happen in whatever parts of its rendering pipeline occur there rather than the GPU
18:42 RealBadAngel i do have 1.8ghz dual core and older radeon
18:42 RealBadAngel this is rater CPU change
18:42 VanessaE ok
18:42 RealBadAngel not GPU
18:43 RealBadAngel when i start to think, nothing in this code makes GPU things faster
18:43 Calinou CPU changes are still good, very useful for gameplay with client + server
18:43 Calinou it's probably more important than GPU right now
18:43 sapier removing that sqrt is a good idea for sure what I still don't understand is why the values had to be changed too ... they're not even close to what'd result on just using the original values
18:43 VanessaE ok then what I saw was legit
18:44 VanessaE sapier: maybe the same reason people often give measures of 0.1 when designing a nodebox, instead of measures of 0.0625.  it's easier to write, even if it's horribly inaccurate.
18:44 sapier where does minetest save it's screenshots?
18:44 VanessaE sapier: in the current dir
18:44 Calinou sadly
18:44 VanessaE unless you have screenshot path set
18:44 Calinou should just be ~/.minetest/screenshots by default
18:45 VanessaE screenshot_path = <foo>  in case you want to fix it somewhere sane,.
18:46 Krock ehm. it saves a white image there when I use F12
18:46 Calinou if it's set, can't take screenshots
18:46 RealBadAngel sapier, i can fine tune the values to be the same as before if you insist
18:46 Calinou oh, directory must exist
18:46 Calinou created screenshots dir by hand
18:47 sapier hmmm for what I see we loose contrast
18:50 RealBadAngel does it really matter when such gfx freak like VanessaE is ok with it? ;)
18:50 VanessaE :P
18:50 sapier yes you should do that RealBadAngel especially as you forgot some values
18:50 sapier It's quite visible for my wood ceiling at night
18:50 VanessaE "gfx freak" he calls me :P
18:50 RealBadAngel ok, i will fine tune the values
18:51 RealBadAngel please review the rest of the code, now im off to work
18:51 sapier old version did show wood texture cleanly while new variant is almost stripes
18:51 VanessaE stripes?
18:51 VanessaE screenshot?
18:52 Calinou fix wood texture then
18:52 Calinou compare using these textures maybe: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8234​2922/minetest/carbone-minetest-pack.zip
18:53 sapier it's default texture and reduction of contrast is not a texture issue
18:54 Calinou the game feels pretty contrasted currently; before 0.4.10, it was way less contrasted
18:54 sapier main difference seems to be downside of nodes is darker while upside seems to be brighter ... http://imgur.com/GRqwqOz,urNcLTW
18:56 VanessaE sapier: well seems like that should easy enough to tweak in his code.  mapblock_mesh.cpp lines 1147 and 1149
18:57 VanessaE however it looks like he only changed the bottom, not the top
18:57 sapier for what I see every node changes
18:57 sapier well at least some values haven't been changed at all ;-)
18:58 VanessaE anyway if the bottom is too dark then just raise that value on line 1149 a little further
19:00 PenguinDad but the bottom face shouldn't be brighter than the top face imo
19:00 sapier some of the values are quite close to what they used to be I'll check if I get an exact match if I change it to that value
19:01 VanessaE better change the other figures too then
19:02 VanessaE I guess 0.71 for those
19:21 VanessaE any luck?
19:25 sapier sorry had to do a rescue operation for a sheep ... a real one
19:25 VanessaE oh?
19:26 sapier actually a lamb that went into a tube below a street and didn't get out of there on it's own
19:26 VanessaE wow
19:26 VanessaE glad you were able to help the poor thing.
19:26 sapier stupid animal
19:27 sapier I'm not that sure my mobf animal are really more stupid then real ones ;-)
19:27 VanessaE haha
19:27 Krock mobs do what the programmers say, and if the mobs so stupid things, then ... ehm yes
19:27 sapier http://imgur.com/EqOqG6F,p7LKwLf,lZHDSBE
19:27 Krock *do
19:28 sapier better ... but I still seem to have missed something
19:28 sapier the wall still seems to be more dark then originally
19:29 VanessaE which one of these images is the original code before the patch?
19:30 sapier ahh still wrong value
19:32 sapier the dirty git is the one I fixed, the dark ceiling is rba
19:33 sapier first=original second=rba third=mine
19:34 VanessaE hm, yeah that far wall (with the windows) does look just slightly darker in yours
19:34 sapier I missed some value just trying corrected one
19:34 VanessaE right wall too.  but the left wall and ceiling look the same.
19:34 VanessaE oh ok
19:35 VanessaE (compared to the original that is)
19:35 sapier http://imgur.com/Ed4wiSi,OuXex2u,KnGJ0hH#0 that's back to normal, same first=orig ...
19:36 sapier https://gist.github.com/sa​pier/7ccc51c71a31f3ab984c
19:36 VanessaE I'd call it good.
19:36 VanessaE certainly good enough to merge anyway as far as the lighting is concerned.
19:37 sapier I'd like to know why RealBadAngel changed it at all? Was it just beeing to lazy to calculate it correct or intentionally ;-)
19:37 VanessaE idk, and he's probably gone off to work by now :)
19:37 VanessaE (probably too lazy to calculate it correctly ;) )
19:37 sapier thought rba is in europe too?
19:38 VanessaE Poland, but he works odd hours
19:38 sapier I see
19:38 sapier well my value are rounded to two digits behind comma too but that seems to be close enough
19:40 sapier conclusion if there's a reason to change it we should talk about it again if not I don't like this to be merged with different values then the original ones
19:41 VanessaE parse error in function sapier.english().  attempted translation:  we should not merge at all, and talk about this regardless. :)
19:41 sapier almost :-)
19:42 sapier what I meant is if there's reason to change that contrast numbers I'd like to know them. If there is no reason they should be fixed to result in same contrast as before
19:42 VanessaE in that case, I say go with the numbers you just came up with
19:43 VanessaE if they work for you, they work. period. :)
19:43 VanessaE merge and move on.
19:44 sapier why do you always expect me to merge everything ;-)
19:44 VanessaE because you're good at it? :)
19:45 sapier sounds like a curse
19:45 VanessaE hahahah
19:56 celeron55 what
19:57 celeron55 so you removed my sRGB<->linear space multiplications?
19:57 celeron55 there's a reason for those you know
19:58 celeron55 it's an approximation of the 2.2 (1.8 on macs) gamma used on screens
19:58 sapier you're not talking about the contrast thing aren't you?
19:58 celeron55 which is applied in order to make vertex color multiplications in linear space and then converted back to screen gamma
19:58 celeron55 sqrt is 2, which is close enough to those
19:58 celeron55 yes, i don't understand why it's called contrast
19:58 celeron55 i'm pretty sure i didn't call it that when it wrote it
19:59 sapier still what's the difference in specifying to pass the sqrt value instead of calculating it inside?
19:59 celeron55 ?
19:59 sapier applyContrast second parameter
20:00 sapier mapblock_mesh.cpp
20:00 celeron55 it isn't specified that way, right?
20:01 sapier true but why pass a value just to calculate sqrt from it if the only usage is for compile time known parameters
20:02 sapier sqrt(x*x*y) == sqrt(x*x) * sqrt(y) == x * sqrt(y)
20:03 sapier hope I didn't forget to much about math the last years :-)
20:04 sfan5 sapier: good news ;), MinetestBot just confirmed me that what you said is right
20:05 sapier what exactly?
20:05 sfan5 <sfan5> !c math.sqrt(5*5*7), math.sqrt(5*5) * math.sqrt(7), 5 * math.sqrt(7)
20:05 sfan5 <MinetestBot> (13.228756555322953, 13.228756555322953, 13.228756555322953)
20:05 sapier ahh ok :-)
20:05 celeron55 yes it really is so, now i'm wondering why i didn't do it that way originally
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20:06 celeron55 this doesn't make intuitive sense to me at all and i need to figure out why
20:06 celeron55 (i mean, colorspace-wise)
20:06 celeron55 (math-wise it does)
20:06 sapier ok then I'm not gonna merge it now maybe there's reason we don't understand yet
20:07 VanessaE damn it why does RealBadAngel always have to start this stuff right before work :-/
20:07 sapier well if he didn't change the values it'd already be merged too ;-)
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20:08 celeron55 oh now i understand why it works that way
20:09 celeron55 does anyone in here know anything about colorspaces or should i just skip any explanations? 8)
20:09 sapier I don't have any idea :-)
20:09 VanessaE I only know a little about it.
20:09 celeron55 as long as the values are replaced by the sqrt of the previous value, it's fine
20:09 VanessaE (not enough to speak with any authority on the subject)
20:10 celeron55 don't change them to any kind of decimal approximations, because those will be wrong even if they look like round numbers
20:11 celeron55 and also, of course the difference won't be very apparent, but i believe the wrongness will accumulate and make people feel something is not right while they can't see why they feel so
20:11 celeron55 ...now i'm assuming the previous values made sense to begin with
20:11 sapier http://imgur.com/Ed4wiSi,OuXex2u,KnGJ0hH you did see this?
20:12 sapier First is original second rba's somehow changed values last is aproximated first numbers
20:13 celeron55 hmm, no; the previous values don't make sense in any "realistic lighting" sense
20:13 sapier so we've got values other values and no idea about correct values? :-)
20:13 celeron55 and also i don't know any immediate way to make them so 8)
20:14 sapier ok if we don't know the correct ones imho we should stay at the already used values
20:15 celeron55 so, this has to be either left exactly as it was or a new gut feel has to be taken with each configurable lighting mode
20:15 celeron55 just put the sqrt()s of the old values there 8)
20:15 VanessaE sapier: "already used" values is fine but the problem is getting rid of those sqrt()'s.
20:15 sapier exact with how many digits? :-)
20:15 VanessaE round to 4 digits.
20:15 VanessaE :)
20:16 VanessaE er, 4 decimal places rather.
20:16 celeron55 well given that we are dealing with 8 bit color here, i guess that works fine
20:16 sapier ok I'll recalculate my 2 decimals values and add 4 instead
20:16 celeron55 4 is definitely excessive but that means we are staying true to the original 8-)
20:17 sapier I'll add a comments why there are those strange numbers ;-)
20:17 celeron55 anyway i'm guessing better values could be found by careful testing
20:18 VanessaE I was only kidding when I said 4 digits :P
20:18 celeron55 basically the old values are the multiplication factors in linear color space, and any new values really get their actual meaning from that too (multiplication in sRGB color space doesn't mean anything useful)
20:19 VanessaE with 8 bpp color, 3 digits would give you at worst about 1/4 bit rounding error
20:19 celeron55 and the relation of those is the sqrt
20:19 VanessaE (so maybe 4 digits IS about right)
20:20 sapier I'm gonna do 6 digits ... if someone feels this is to much it can be removed later ... but I don't wanna calculate another time :-)
20:20 VanessaE haha
20:20 celeron55 also i don't know if the shaders actually mess these up further so that the values in fact mean absolutely nothing no matter what is done to them
20:20 VanessaE celeron55: good question.
20:20 celeron55 8D
20:21 celeron55 also didn't RBA change those values already at some point?
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20:21 VanessaE er, s/8 bpp color/8 bits ber color channel/  (you know what I meant)
20:21 celeron55 8bpc!
20:21 VanessaE celeron55: yeah, to increase the overall contrast relative to the sides of nodes
20:22 sapier they doo have an effect
20:23 sapier and considering minetest already being to dark at night I don't like it to become even more dark ... but of course that's a subjective opinion only
20:23 celeron55 i mean, depending on what the shaders do the effect could become such that if you set a factor of sqrt(0.5) there, the visual brightness wouldn't be halved like it should but instead just lowers by whatever amount the arbitrary calculations result in
20:24 celeron55 given the amount people probably care about this, this discussion is already useless thoguh
20:24 celeron55 though*
20:24 * celeron55 removes himself ->
20:24 VanessaE celeron55: well for comparison, the original patch that changed the brightnesses is here, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/c9ba92c4ad0b010d6d36890c3b1ddfb2e773560f
20:25 celeron55 oh there my actually useful function name was removed
20:26 celeron55 the old values are arbitrary still though
20:26 VanessaE they were decided kinda by committee
20:27 sapier to be honest I don't understand the exact meaning of those values but changing them without any explanation doesn't seem to be right
20:27 VanessaE calinou, RBA, myself, and at least a couple others, via screenshots RBA was passing around.
20:29 celeron55 i don't think we can construct any kind of useful model for this kind of node shading
20:30 celeron55 or, well, we could, but it would be just as arbitrary
20:30 VanessaE lemme check the logs
20:30 sapier so what's result? stay as close as possible at original values?
20:30 celeron55 because we would have to define an arbitrary material properties for the faces, arbitrary light angle(s) and possibly other things too
20:31 celeron55 stay as close as possible to the revised values by RBA that currently exist
20:31 VanessaE http://irc.minetest.ru/min​etest/2014-06-12#i_3757468
20:31 VanessaE there's the bulk of the discussion on the brightnesses.
20:31 celeron55 they have at least some thought put to them even while probably not everyone agrees to them
20:33 sapier https://gist.github.com/sa​pier/8a13cd2cbe2cc8e6da74 then I'm gonna use this values for merge
20:33 VanessaE sapier: go for it.
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21:04 sapier is there any reason to keep default per block entity count at 49 after fixing the duplication issues?
21:06 sapier what about 1024= 1/4 of nodecount or 512 = 1/8 of nodecount ?
21:06 VanessaE not especially so - I run with a default of 500 without issues, as long as there isn't some mod glitching out and creating them like crazy
21:06 VanessaE but bear in mind the usual issue of lower FPS from having lots of entities around
21:07 VanessaE 1024 seems a little excessive, 512 seems about right to me
21:07 VanessaE it can always be adjusted by the server operator if that's still too low
21:08 celeron55 i guess it's starting to be the time to raise the limit
21:09 sapier is there any reason to use pot2 values or would vanessae's tested 500 value be good too?
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22:28 celeron55 sapier: i personally never use 2^n values unless specifically needed
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