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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-07-16

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 VanessaE [07-15 20:00] <VanessaE> wtf is force-loading that block [at map coordinates 0,0,0]?
00:01 VanessaE [07-15 20:00] <cheapie> It appears that when you first join a server, the client "thinks" you're at 0,0,0 until the server tells it otherwise.
00:01 VanessaE is this true?>
00:01 VanessaE [07-15 20:01] <cheapie> The client, meanwhile, is requesting mapblocks for that area.
00:01 VanessaE [07-15 20:01] <cheapie> When I join servers, especially slow ones, I can see my position start at 0,0,0 and then change to the correct value.
00:01 VanessaE can someone confirm this so I can perhaps stop chasing this wild goose?
00:01 cheapie (I have debug mode set to always enabled in my minetest.conf)
00:02 VanessaE (other than the client doesn't so much request, as the server just sends; there is no mechanism for the client to explicitly request a mapblock)
00:02 cheapie Oh, OK.
00:03 VanessaE yeah maybe that is it, because now I'm not seeing those blocks when I first join, so they aren't force-loaded for mw
00:03 VanessaE me*
00:03 VanessaE whew.  that's a relief
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05:39 RealBadAngel hi
05:40 RealBadAngel ShadowNinja, here?
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06:29 Zeno` RealBadAngel, I made a mistake
06:30 Zeno` RealBadAngel, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1469
06:31 Zeno` The random seed not being provided and therefore (probably) being 0+14002 is "sort of an issue" still though
06:31 Zeno` It seems that VE would like a random seed if one is not explicitly provided
06:33 Zeno` Also, not providing random_level will cause a crash (dunno if this is a bug or not though)
06:34 Zeno` Since it crashes every time I guess the "bug" could be viewed as kind of like a compiler error. I don't know what you guys deem appropriate for something like that though.
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07:09 RealBadAngel Zeno`, sorry i havent had a chance to check the code
07:10 RealBadAngel i will analyze it later today
07:11 Zeno` RealBadAngel, no rush. I actually think it's ok as-is, but the mod people I've spoken to disagree (regarding the seed).
07:12 Zeno` I guess the question is "if a seed is not explicitly provided should a random or constant be assigned"
07:12 Zeno` And there are good arguments on both sides of the coin
07:13 RealBadAngel before PA forced me to use seeds i tried to make the code as random as possible
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07:14 Zeno` well, at the moment there is no seed unless one is specified from Lua. I guess the confusion stems from the API docs because it "seems" unimportant
07:14 RealBadAngel thats why for example tree models are using so many "twists"
07:14 Zeno` I think either side of the argument could be supported... tough decision
07:15 Zeno` What does the Lua interface give the seed value if it's undefined? Is it 0?
07:15 RealBadAngel idk
07:15 Zeno` I guess I can look that up later
07:16 RealBadAngel mt is too complex project for one person to know everything
07:17 Zeno` yeah of course, just thought you may know though (it's a Lua question btw... as in embedded Lua, not really MT-related)
07:19 Zeno` https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob​/master/src/script/lua_api/l_env.cpp#L760
07:19 Zeno` that is the line I think everyone is talking about
07:20 Zeno` the "field" that none of the mods seem to set
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07:20 Zeno` anyway, in your hands :p ;)
07:33 Zeno` probably -1 from a preliminary perusal
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07:41 Zeno` scrap that, it /might/ be undefined
07:42 Zeno` i.e.  c_converter.cpp does not set *result if lua_isnumber() returns 0
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11:19 Krock ShadowNinja, could you check this one https://github.com/SmallJoker/minetest/comm​it/e2a40d6feed256be2645fd07ebc387bc11ced6fc for correctness?
11:23 proller unsapierizing code 8-)
11:34 sapier more fixing code I refused to fix becase by someone who promised to do it years ago didn't
11:35 sapier same as sfan5 not having added speaking color names as he promised about a year ago
11:35 proller s/years/ year/
11:35 proller s/didn't/done half year ago/
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11:37 sfan5 sapier: I did not promise adding color names
11:37 sapier hmm not sure if it's a problem or an additional feature but this code would cause ANY element sent to be transfered to lua not those we support only
11:48 sapier well that's been my requiremen to agree to that commit at all
11:48 sapier I know ppl forget things like that ... therefore I'll not agree to things "to be done later" ... learned my lesson
11:50 Zeno` two questions: const char *str = it.memberName(); <----  will that (pointer) remain in scope, OR does lua_pushstring() make a "deep copy" of the string?
11:52 Zeno` it.membername() is quite different to a string constant which the removed code uses
11:52 Zeno` depending on how lua_pushstring() works it may, or may not, be an issue
11:52 sfan5 http://pgl.yoyo.org/luai/i/lua_pushstring
11:52 sfan5 >Lua makes (or reuses) an internal copy of the given string, [...]
11:53 Zeno` If it were me I'd look further then
11:55 Zeno` it.memberName() obviously returns a pointer to a string, but is that (pointer) guaranteed to stay valid?
11:55 Zeno` the removed code uses string literals so they /are/ guarenteed to remain valid
11:57 sfan5 Zeno`: depends on the 'it' class
11:57 Zeno` sfan5, of course
11:58 Zeno` can the behaviour or implementation of the 'it' class be guaranteed?
11:58 sfan5 if 'it' belongs to the C++ std lib it has docs, otherwise look into the src for 'it'
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12:00 Zeno` You misunderstand what I am saying. The "long way" has semantics that CANNOT change because they are clearly defined by the C++ Std. The much nicer and shorter way relies on things that are not (necessarily) in the standard and required look elsewhere
12:01 Zeno` require*
12:01 Zeno` If I have to look elsewhere then it's dangerous code and maybe this is why PE did it that way in the first place
12:02 Zeno` or why he wanted it that way... I don't know the history
12:03 Zeno` In either case one way is ambiguous and the other way never ambiguous
12:03 Zeno` I know which way I'd choose
12:06 sapier don't use non standard behaviour not guaranteed to be there for other os/compiler/compiler version if there's a way to do it standard conforming
12:07 sapier as always someone other having already done this wrong in our code doesn't justify to do it wrong again ;-)
12:10 Zeno` well, that's what I just said
12:10 sapier ok why didn't you say it more clear? ;-)
12:11 Zeno` Well, because I had to start looking at all sorts of other stuff outside of the standard
12:11 Zeno` and then gave up
12:12 Zeno` I mean... Krock's code is much, much nicer
12:12 Zeno` but I have to look at crap not in the standard
12:12 Zeno` so *shrug*. I don't care... not my code
12:14 sapier sorry don't understand what you're trying to hint at (hopfully he reads log)
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12:55 sapier I'd like to merge some pull requests, any comments: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1391 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1457 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1475 and https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1491
12:56 sfan5 sapier: +----------------------------------------​----------------------------------------
12:56 sfan5 what are those for
12:56 sapier where?
12:56 sapier oh... to separate functions opticaly
12:57 sfan5 1391 looks good
13:01 sapier ok merging
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15:00 kaeza https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1493
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15:36 Calinou # To reduce lag, block transfers are slowed down when a player is building something.
15:36 Calinou # This determines how long they are slowed down after placing or removing a node.
15:36 Calinou #full_block_send_enable_min_time_from_building = 2.0
15:37 Calinou is this relevant in current versions? doesn't this cause all block sends to be slowed down a lot when there are lots of players on a server, since they're all building or digging?
15:37 Calinou (we have client-side block placement prediction since long time ago)
15:37 Calinou this setting was introduced in early 2011
15:38 VanessaE I should think that setting would be useless now
15:40 Calinou then it should be reduced or disabled by default
15:44 celeron55 it's per-client
15:45 celeron55 and yes, you really do want that to be there; it helps on shitty connections
15:45 sapier if it's not there in worst case you send a full block update per placed node
15:46 celeron55 actually, i'm not perfectly sure how that interacts with the channel priorization now
15:46 celeron55 that could make it less relevant to some extent
15:46 sapier I don't think so
15:47 sapier for what I understood this touches block sending only, as all blocks are transmitted on same channel I don't know how side effects could happen
15:48 sapier unless you did add this to slow down block sending in favor of interaction
15:48 Calinou thanks for the info
15:51 Calinou is disabling mud flow in mapgenv6 much faster? is it really required to have mud flow in the first place?
15:52 Calinou it seems like it's slow, the nodes are placed after generation (sometimes players can even see that)
15:52 VanessaE Calinou: wasn't that added to cover up those every-80-nodes trenches?
15:54 Krock trenches? perlin noise doesn't generate trenches when it touches a "border"
15:54 VanessaE Krock: no, but some mapgen bug many moons ago did.
15:55 Calinou I'll try generating a world without mudflow
15:55 Krock ah.
15:55 VanessaE I'm sure I'm wrong, as usual.
15:56 * Krock doesn't know minetest history thet good
15:56 Calinou I don't seem to have trenches and it looks like it's quite fast
15:57 Krock so, let's remove mudflow from mgv6? :3
15:57 celeron55 the mud flow is there because it makes a more interesting and natural end result
15:57 VanessaE so I guess those are long since fixed :)
15:58 Krock celeron55, well, what exactly does it do?
15:58 Calinou how fast is it?
15:58 celeron55 iirc it moves dirt and sand down hills
15:58 sapier mudflow does postprocess map to smooth sharp edges
15:58 Krock ah, nice feature
15:58 celeron55 so that if there is a hole in the base rock, it flows there, and if there is a spike, it falls off of it
15:59 Calinou the flag is nomudflow, right?
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16:06 kaeza <kaeza> fun fact: field[] elements are bottom-aligned ;_;
16:06 kaeza <kaeza> so height is practically useless
16:07 kaeza well, height for an element which is *always* one line does not make sense
16:16 sapier yes that's a incosistency we can't fix
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16:27 ShadowNinja Krock: This is what I mean: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7804219/
16:28 Krock ShadowNinja, I thought I already tried this and got a convert error
16:28 sapier independent of how this is done do we really want to pass everything received unseen to lua?
16:29 Krock why not, sapier?
16:29 ShadowNinja ^ It it much cleaner, more extendable, and doesn't involve hardcoding it.
16:29 ShadowNinja is*
16:30 sapier true but removes a check therefore increases risk of exploiting possible bugs
16:30 Krock well then, ShadowNinja, gonna take your codes and override mine
16:31 sapier and to me server list is not considered to be trustworthy ... it's remote
16:32 ShadowNinja Krock: Oh, that last parameter is an undex for a null value.  You'll have to put something on the stack for that.
16:32 ShadowNinja sapier: Removes what check?
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16:33 Krock "You'll have to put something on the stack for that." -> too complicated words...
16:33 RealBadAngel so guys, what about https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1487 ?
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16:34 ShadowNinja Krock: Just something like "lua_pushnil(L); int nullindex = lua_gettop(L);"
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16:34 ShadowNinja Krock: You'll also have to pop it from the stach with lua_remove(L, nullindex);
16:34 VanessaE RealBadAngel: did you sort out the fencepost normalmap rotation glitch
16:34 VanessaE ?
16:35 ShadowNinja Make sure to push that before lua_newtable().
16:35 Krock k
16:35 RealBadAngel VanessaE, fences are subject for another pull, problem with them are because they used dirty hack
16:36 VanessaE RealBadAngel: imho this can't be pushed without fixing that, because this pull will break those normalmaps, introducing a regression.
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16:37 RealBadAngel those things shouldnt be combined in one pull
16:37 Krock ShadowNinja, so you mean something like this? http://pastebin.com/DyMGD0EW
16:38 Krock eh. forgot lua_remove
16:38 RealBadAngel i would rather fix fences BEFORE mapblock mesh get merged
16:40 VanessaE fix that bug and some 180 MB of texture memory needed by HDX 512 gets freed (think coloredwoods mod - all those fences it defines) :)
16:41 VanessaE (89 colors of fences, plus normals for each texture)
16:41 Calinou you should use dynamic fence previews for coloredwood fences, VanessaE, like in minetest_next
16:41 Calinou if not done already
16:41 VanessaE Calinou: actually in Dreambuilder I use Sokomine's colormachine
16:41 ShadowNinja Krock: Yes, but not on pastebin.com.  ;-)
16:41 * Krock headdesks
16:42 Krock paste = pasta = yummy
16:42 Krock eh.
16:42 Krock not that
16:47 VanessaE Calinou: and actually, I don't really like the way _next does it
16:48 Calinou it avoids repetition
16:48 Calinou you can edit how it's done (the overlay)
16:48 VanessaE using image overlays requires that the overlay be the same size as the texture
16:48 Calinou use a larger overlay for HD packs?
16:48 VanessaE exactly.
16:50 VanessaE though using a single overlay image at 512px is about half the storage of the ~100 distinct inventory images being used now, it doesn't allow me to use a photo rendering of a fence as the item
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16:50 VanessaE gotta run, bbl.
16:51 Krock ShadowNinja, so you meant this? (edited and added lua_remove) http://pastebin.com/DyMGD0EW
16:52 Krock it's an interesting Lua "API" in this minetest core
16:53 ShadowNinja Krock: Um, you might not want to remove the null before you use it.  ;-)  Move the remove call to after the loop, and if the first line's indented it looks good.
16:54 Krock that's a copy&paste fail
16:55 ShadowNinja Minetest uses Lua's C API without wrappers or anything.  I find http://pgl.yoyo.org/luai/i/about helpfull often.
16:55 * Krock gives ShadowNinja a huge cookie
16:56 Krock updated codes, uploaded.
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16:58 ShadowNinja Krock: Tested and works?
16:58 Krock wait 15 miutes and I'll tell you
16:59 Krock no.might take 20 minutes
17:02 sapier ShadowNinja "remove the check" as of passing any data from any server as long as it's lua
17:02 sapier -lua+json
17:02 sapier just change serverlist url, fetch serverlist, change back ...
17:03 ShadowNinja sapier: Could you reword that?
17:03 sapier of course if you download serverlist that way remove the serverlist and add a "download_json_url()" function
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17:04 sapier it's equivalent
17:04 ShadowNinja Do you mean that now it will accept any JSON value instead of just serverlist-like data?
17:05 ShadowNinja sapier: Just use download_file() and parse_json().  But that function works on the local list too.
17:05 sapier I think so
17:05 ShadowNinja sapier: Well, the user is expected to set serverlist_url to the url of a server list.
17:06 ShadowNinja That doesn't seem like an unreasonable expectation.
17:06 sapier if you do it that way any mainmenu mod could do too ... but that's not the point what I don't like is passing ANY data instead of data we know about
17:09 sapier it's good practice to catch invalid data as soon as possible now we pass them to lua and let lua decide
17:13 sapier any comments on this one https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1475?
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17:22 Krock ShadowNinja, works. but the "empty favourites entries"-bug which is caused by this, is still present
17:24 RealBadAngel https://github.com/RealBadAngel/minetest/com​mit/99b0b8dde2f32272fa898fffe40df2147c31ba60
17:24 RealBadAngel that fixes fences issue
17:26 RealBadAngel i dont know why github tries to combine that patch and mapblock_mesh updates into one commit
17:26 RealBadAngel can i push that directly?
17:36 ShadowNinja sapier: https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=6&amp;t=9765
17:37 ShadowNinja Krock: Um, so it doesn't work?  It doesn't show the serverlist?
17:38 Krock ShadowNinja, it works but the favourite servers have the bug where they have no name (image on pull request)
17:38 ShadowNinja sapier: Lua can do same basic sanity checks.  JSON can't store functions or anything of the like, so it isn't unsafe, it just might throw an error or crash if it hets invalid data.
17:43 sapier ShadowNinja: it's not about can or can't its about propagating invalid data to more locations where they could cause harm in case of bugs
17:44 sapier And I know about the githash isssue ;-)
17:44 sapier oh I didn't know about the parallel build issue ... strange
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18:05 RealBadAngel guys? any objections about fences fix?
18:07 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: Looks good, provided it works.  But change the // ^[transformR90 comment to // Place the texture the right way around the posts or something like that.
18:08 RealBadAngel ok, will change the description
18:09 RealBadAngel and ofc it works, theres built-in rotation system for tiles which rotates vertices
18:09 RealBadAngel i made it for 6dfacedit
18:09 RealBadAngel 6dfacedir
18:10 sapier talking about fences, there once was a patch which made fences connect to solid blocks does someone remember it?
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18:11 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/bl​ob/master/src/content_mapblock.cpp#L102
18:11 RealBadAngel so no need to use any texture transformations in the engine
18:11 ShadowNinja No, but doesn't sound like it'll take more than a few lines of code to recreate it.
18:11 ShadowNinja sapier: ^
18:12 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: Um, why is that indented so much?
18:14 RealBadAngel ShadowNinja, my code that speeds up mapblock mesh doesnt allow realtime texture modifications. all is fetched at startup
18:15 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: Oh, that might be an issue.  Is it still allowed for entities?  If not my nuke mod, and sfan5's, will break.
18:16 ShadowNinja RealBadAngel: But change that indentation to 1 tab like it should be.  :-)
18:16 RealBadAngel there shouldnt be any issue with any kind of mods
18:17 sapier hmm we shoud start clapping peoples fingers if they use spaces for indention :-)
18:17 RealBadAngel ShadowNinja, ofc you can try mods in question with the patch
18:18 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1487
18:19 RealBadAngel anyway its not about entities, just nodes
18:20 sapier can someone explain to me why furnace animation doesn't work?
18:20 RealBadAngel it reads on startup all node definitions, prepares textures, assign shaders, get normal textures, animation frames etc
18:20 RealBadAngel sapier it does work for me
18:23 sapier ok it doesn't work if you burn leaves only
18:23 sapier guess there's some bug iwth low quality material
18:25 Calinou the texture is still stretched on part of the fences :(
18:25 sapier you're working in that area RealBadAngel could you have a look?
18:25 RealBadAngel Calinou, youre talkin bout fences patch?
18:26 RealBadAngel you wont notice any difference, it does exactly the same rotations, but just not using illegal hack
18:26 sapier did I mention I merged fixes for bugs with a cumulative age of about 3 years today? ;-)
18:26 Calinou https://cdn.mediacru.sh/gin7sSgg8PPm.jpg
18:27 Calinou happens with any textures
18:27 sapier as RealBadAngel said that's same as before
18:28 ShadowNinja sapier: No, not spaces, there are three tabs there where only one should be.
18:28 sapier ok I just mentioned because I stumbled over a location where this happened today
18:29 RealBadAngel Calinou, idk if the current look is wrong
18:30 Calinou it pretty much is
18:30 Calinou only half of the fences look correct
18:32 RealBadAngel try to define then how it should look, i can change it then
18:34 sapier well for wood the effect is quite good
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18:57 paramat Calinou, Krock, the option to disable mudflow was added by hmmmmm on my request to fix https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1077 i doubt it's much faster when disabled
18:58 Calinou disabled by default in Carbone now, on new worlds
18:58 Calinou looks OK to me
18:58 Calinou I don't have these trenches
18:58 Krock paramat, that's weird.. normally, there shouldn't be any problems with perlin noise
18:59 VanessaE paramat: ah, so for once I WAS right? O_O
18:59 paramat see https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?p=124043#p124043
18:59 * Krock gives VanessaE a cookie
18:59 * VanessaE falls over from the shock
18:59 paramat yep :)
19:00 Krock o.o paramat joined IRC! Let's celebrate
19:00 * VanessaE tosses the cookie in OldCoder's kitten food box (someone's gotta keep his kitten pile fed)
19:01 * sfan5 gives VanessaE a kitten
19:01 * Krock points at /topic
19:01 VanessaE dammit sfan5...
19:01 * VanessaE puts the kitten in OldCoder's pile.
19:01 * sfan5 ignores Krock
19:01 VanessaE paramat: I still can't help but wonder what the original cause was of those trenches
19:03 paramat VanessaE, apparently they were in very early (pre-paramat) versions of Minetest?
19:03 VanessaE paramat: well yeah :P
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19:09 sapier I've seen them not that long ago
19:09 sapier well actually I saw opposit
19:12 paramat so disabling mudflow is necessary when lowering terrain by mod in mgv6, for example in  my 2 mgv6 flattening mods and in my island and archipelago mods
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19:35 VanessaE sapier: that velocity/position prediction patch (#1489)...  Zefram_Fysh has tested it with success.  what's your feeling on merging it?
19:36 Zefram_Fysh I came to some interesting realisations about it while making pipeworks use it
19:37 Zefram_Fysh there are multiple uses for this velocity prediction feature, and they conflict when the engine only permits one prediction
19:37 Zefram_Fysh ideally I'd like to be able to give the client a prediction for visual purposes that's different from what the engine is computing with
19:38 Zefram_Fysh with pipeworks I really wanted to use prediction just to make the animation cleaner, but I was forced to also change some of the internal computation, which now sees items stopped just as the player does
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19:40 Zefram_Fysh also, there are two distinct ways I could use prediction to improve animation.  I could predict the next segment of motion, to make the transition appear smooth; this is applicable both visually and in computation
19:41 Zefram_Fysh the other use of prediction is to predict that the entity will stop when it reaches the place where the server needs to work out the next segment of motion: this is just to avoid showing the player wildly extrapolated motion that would never really happen
19:42 Zefram_Fysh with the present velocity prediction feature, I have to choose one use of prediction or the other.  I chose the latter as being more important
19:43 Zefram_Fysh but it would be nice to be able to make two segments of prediction, so that I can get both the smooth transition when there's sufficiently low lag *and* the fallback of stopping when we run out of reasonably predictable motion
19:44 Zefram_Fysh that's akin to the advantage of triple-buffered graphics over double-buffered
19:45 Zefram_Fysh to be clear, those are proposed enhancements, not prerequisites for velocity prediction to be useful.  the single-segment velocity prediction is useful as it is, and most welcome
19:47 Krock ok.
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19:52 sapier VanessaE: I haven't got any core developers oppinion upon it so I won't merge it as it's a major impact on gameplay
19:53 VanessaE what impact do you expect it to have, assuming it's not being used?
19:53 sapier I never assume something isn't used
19:53 VanessaE s/it's/the extra feature/
19:53 sapier ppl use everything even worst features
19:53 VanessaE true :)
19:54 sapier and I still have no use for it in mobf as it's way of doing it is exactly oposite how mobf generates movement
19:55 sapier and even if I did find a way to use it ... sounds strange ... I couldn't do that as mobf has to work with stable
19:56 Zefram_Fysh it's *initially* unused, surely?  and so should be safe to merge
19:57 Zefram_Fysh it's also easy to use in a backcompatible way.  the extra parameters are ignored by the older engine
19:57 sapier it's not about bugs but about sideeffects I haven't thought about
19:58 sapier why don't you just bother some other core dev to check, that's most easy way to get it merged ;-P
19:58 VanessaE sapier: because you know how it is here :P
19:58 sapier well I wont merge it without ok from someone really having checked it
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21:28 sapier ShadowNinja: could you have a look at "Error in error handling" bug? that one is quite annoying
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