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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-06-20

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Time Nick Message
00:05 iqualfragile no, actual outdated links, to the forum to be more specific
00:24 ShadowNinja Outdated, but they still work due to my compat code.  I'll fix them...
00:31 ShadowNinja Done.
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12:30 sfan5 ShadowNinja: I can merge the big-endian fixing patch, right?
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13:47 iqualfragile question: should i migrate the mmdb to use the new forum user database as authentification backend or migrate the old accounts into the native django acount format?
13:48 sapier hmmm what about mixed mode?
13:49 sapier wait native django would be a separate db ?
13:52 iqualfragile sapier: table, seperate table
13:52 iqualfragile but it could as well be put in a seperate database, yes
13:52 sapier so you'd need a separate password compared to same pw on using the forum auth?
13:52 iqualfragile sapier: yes
13:53 sapier then I'm for for forum auth
13:53 sapier forcing users to remember another password wont help mmdb acceptance
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15:14 RealBadAngel hi sapier
15:15 RealBadAngel whos about to push the changes we made yesterday? i mean no wrap and height instead of ascender?
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15:53 RealBadAngel proller, how about contributing back with kv storage?
15:54 proller why?
15:54 RealBadAngel because you are takin everythin? give somethin in exchange :)
15:55 RealBadAngel and mainly because im askin you
15:56 proller its not my code
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16:19 RealBadAngel you have modified it numerous times already
16:20 RealBadAngel but thats not the point
16:21 RealBadAngel we can go hard way if you want
16:21 RealBadAngel i will forbid to use shaders code in freemier
16:21 proller how?
16:21 RealBadAngel simply, by adding explicit rule
16:22 sapier RealBadAngel: I tried yesterday but could you post the final changes, you mentioned some additional locations where to use height
16:22 sapier RealBadAngel: sad to tell you, but you can't
16:22 RealBadAngel rly?
16:22 sapier if you add a rule like that we can't use it in minetest either
16:22 RealBadAngel its not fuckin fair
16:23 proller 8-)
16:23 proller no, 8-P
16:23 RealBadAngel hes takin everythin he wants to
16:23 sapier well that's the downside of lgpl
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16:24 RealBadAngel and im just askin for kv
16:24 sapier even if he did want to do he couldn't
16:25 RealBadAngel hmmm, is that possible to take ones code and relicense it?
16:25 RealBadAngel under different one?
16:25 sapier no the only one who can do relicensing is copyright owner
16:25 sapier and copyright stays at author if not explicitly transfered
16:25 RealBadAngel so how the fuck is he relicensing mt?
16:26 sapier he can't
16:26 RealBadAngel freeminer is another license
16:26 sapier the code from minetest included in freeminer is still lgpl but anything added is gpl
16:27 RealBadAngel how can you tell which line is under which license>
16:27 sapier actually thats the problem ;-)
16:28 sapier as there's no (usable) way to do you'll have to use the most limiting one and for freeminer it's gpl
16:28 sapier of course you could git blame every file and track down each parts origin
16:29 RealBadAngel weird
16:29 RealBadAngel proller why cant you just share the code?
16:31 proller why me?
16:31 proller its not my code
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16:32 sapier freeminer is already dead end as of minetests perspective amount of work to get code from there is most likely same as writing that code ourselfs
16:33 proller also you cant write same code if you looket at freeminer code ;)
16:33 sapier I don't even look there
16:33 sapier useless work
16:37 sapier RealBadAngel: what's state of your shader fixes are they completed yet?
16:39 sapier np
16:39 sapier oops wrong text field .. I'm gonna merge https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1395 in a few minutes
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17:00 ShadowNinja sfan5: That's what I asked you.  ;-)  I saw discussion about it but wasn't sure what the conclusion was.
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17:14 LemonLake Been experimenting with html-less css stylesheets
17:14 LemonLake by that I mean using no html for the styling :p I used the mt mod recorder as a practice, hows it look? http://i.imgur.com/XpTwEGU.jpg?1
17:14 ShadowNinja http://sprunge.us/QiEd?diff  <-- Comments?
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17:15 LemonLake wait, I'll get a non-jpg screen
17:15 ShadowNinja Also, any objections to setting preload_item_visuals off by default?  It substantially lowers load time and doesn't affect inventory opening time very much.
17:15 LemonLake Waaiiit
17:15 LemonLake Soz guys, wrong chan lol :P you kept sending msgs so it auto-put it here
17:18 ShadowNinja For reference: It takes about 3 seconds to join my server, and about 1 second to open the inventory (UI, so lots of items) without preload_item_visuals, and about 40 seconds to join with about 0.2 seonds to open the inventory with it enabled.
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17:48 sapier I agree to disabling preload item visuals ... it's due for way to long ;-)
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17:54 Calinou disable by default, preload only if it's useful (to not annoy players during gameplay)
17:54 Calinou when items preload, they'll often do when the player is in inventory, not fighting a mob or such
17:55 Calinou anyway I'm disappointed of the issue triaging: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1362 → this is very easy to do, so how is this low priority? I think priority should take difficulty into account
17:55 Calinou easier to do = less incentive to not do it
17:55 Calinou but thanks for adding it to milestone anyway
17:56 sapier as far as I remember I haven't added that label guess it's due to possible discussions that could arise about this ... or did you manage to get consens to this on?
17:56 sapier +e
17:57 ShadowNinja Calinou: A algorithm hasn't been decided on, and there are more important things to do.
17:58 ShadowNinja And it shouldn't be on the milestone, we want to finish 0.4.10 soon.
17:59 sapier I guess that's not gonna be a issue to delay 0.4.10 ... there are other way more critical things ;-)
18:01 Calinou anything else is better than current system
18:01 Calinou the current one is totally wrong and there are at least two tables that fix it
18:01 Calinou sapier, RealBadAngel said he tested it, but didn't comment anything in particular
18:03 ShadowNinja Why is this on the milestone?  The system has received many changes so the bug may no longer exist: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/793
18:04 sapier droping it is a way to fix it for next milestone too
18:06 ShadowNinja No more milestone issues unless they're important bugs.
18:06 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1343 is this worth to be added to 0.4.10 or shall it wait for next version?
18:06 sapier android port is important for 0.4.10
18:06 sapier it's time to release it
18:07 ShadowNinja sapier: Definitely for later since the formspecs should be redone.
18:07 Calinou keep in mind, redoing formspec likely breaks all mods
18:07 sapier I can't hear that damn excuse any longer
18:07 ShadowNinja Calinou: Not with a converter.
18:08 Calinou then redo them; I'm around to fix my mods anyway
18:08 Calinou but not everyone is
18:08 ShadowNinja We need a solid specification first though.  Should I create an issue?
18:08 sapier next one claiming improving formspec isn't an option without providing a replacement is gonna pay me a drink
18:09 sapier non-alcoholic ... otherwise I'll die from alcohol
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18:10 sapier yet the fstk ingame addons can wait till after 0.4.10 that's not the topic here
18:11 sapier #1359 #1370 and the final android port pull are crucial for android porting please test them in order to get them merged
18:12 sapier ShadowNinja: have a look if there isn't already something like "formspec must die"
18:13 sapier imho we don't need a spec ... the only sane way is using a existing gui description language
18:16 sapier https://github.com/sapier/minetest/commit​/8bb87b57fbc4632103b03da36f606dc83d505f5e hmmmm can you have a look at this one? for what I found out merging those two flags doesn't do any harm in typical case and will only add some performance overhead in quite uncommon silly cases
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18:29 sapier https://forum.minetest.net​/viewtopic.php?pid=138276 can some forum mod please cleanup the non declaration posts in there?
18:31 ShadowNinja https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1399
18:34 sapier already seen and commented ;-P
18:41 ShadowNinja sapier: Moved a bunch to trash.
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18:50 ShadowNinja sapier: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1398 should be a pull request.
18:52 sapier will be done once it's usefull
18:52 sapier right now I'd have to create a new pull once a day because it's based on other pulls
18:53 sapier and rebasing fails terribly for that one
18:53 sapier I'll add a link to latest code
19:02 ShadowNinja sapier: I can't parse this: Additionally this translation I mentioned is acually what specifies the API not the low level format as anything not translated is by definition not part of it.
19:03 ShadowNinja sapier: Also, you can obviously do the same checks, eg "if not element.text then return "text us required" end"
19:03 ShadowNinja (In C++)
19:04 sapier you can always do additional work but what's the point of replacing it if nothing improves?
19:05 RealBadAngel Sapier, before 0.4.10 i do not plan any further work on shaders
19:05 ShadowNinja I don't understand what you mean by translation.  And the serialization method is an irrelivant implementation detail.
19:05 ShadowNinja sapier: What?
19:06 ShadowNinja sapier: Even adding keyed fields to the original format would be immensly helpfull, but it's still ugly, hard to read, and hard to manipulate.
19:06 RealBadAngel next step is introduce multiple rendering passes, rendering buffers and rendering to textures
19:07 sapier ShadowNinja: imho the improvement by adding tables is far from big enough to justify the work required to translate it to actual gui elements
19:07 proller goood ;)
19:08 RealBadAngel that gonna allow reflections, refractions, and all the post process effects
19:08 ShadowNinja sapier: You're already doing the same work for the current format.
19:08 sapier be carefull about rendering to textures rba there are quite a lot of android devices out there not supporting it and still some (intel) gpus having issues too
19:08 ShadowNinja My version has auto-positioning though, which requires a little more work.
19:09 sapier ShadowNinja: the main difference is I actually specify the api you suggest providing just a format not giving any api wise help to use it ... fstk does this implicit by providing the functions
19:09 ShadowNinja sapier: I don't think shaders not working on Android is a concern, due to their low power.
19:09 RealBadAngel sapier, that is definitely not intended to use with pseudo computers ;)
19:10 RealBadAngel we are talkin here about high end visual fx
19:10 ShadowNinja sapier: Ah, yes, some DOM/FSTK-like API could be added.
19:10 sapier actually I'd prefere some existing language
19:10 ShadowNinja sapier: But standard Lua functions already let you deal with this easily.
19:10 ShadowNinja like table.*
19:10 RealBadAngel i agree with SN
19:11 RealBadAngel tables are what we need
19:11 ShadowNinja And you can do indexing with standard Lua indexes instead of havilg to parse or generate it.
19:12 sapier problem with what you suggest is that it's not helpfull at all without a lot of additional documentation and code checking those tables
19:12 ShadowNinja Eg, formspec[4].tabs.list.elements[1] = "New text"
19:12 ShadowNinja s/list/List/
19:13 sapier who does the "tabs" decoding?
19:13 sapier who checks for consitency
19:13 sapier how to tell user what's inconsistent
19:13 sapier yes that'a all solvable ... but it's a lot of work
19:14 sapier and what happens if someone wants two use two independent tab header elements in a single form for example
19:15 sapier if you use tabs you give away the implicit order the current formspecs are written thus you can't tell any longer "last one is to be the one displayed"
19:16 sapier because within a tab there ain't a order ... well unless you define any tab to not have a name but a index only
19:22 RealBadAngel insted of finding possible holes in another solution try to say why it will be far better than current one ;)
19:24 sapier there are so much holes in it it's most likely not gonna be better at all after those are fixed
19:24 sapier in worst case you can do this in a way it's even worse
19:24 sapier and not considering them at the beginning is the road to that worst case scenario
19:25 sapier lua tables give full freedom to do anything ... but don't believe you don't have to pay the price for it ... and price for freedom usually is compexity
19:27 sapier https://gist.github.com/sa​pier/cc2b30a55c7afe4e2572 makes ipv6 error a message only
19:28 sapier any comments?
19:30 jin_xi pls consider something like this: html/css for ui via external library. i dont think we need to invent and develop another ui system
19:31 sapier that'd be my preferred way of replacing formspec too
19:32 RealBadAngel tables are not thing to invent
19:32 jin_xi tables are tables
19:32 jin_xi we dont need tables
19:32 RealBadAngel its a natural solution
19:32 RealBadAngel we do have them
19:32 sapier tables aren't the solution just the raw dataformat ... they're about 10% of your suggestion
19:32 RealBadAngel easy to handle in lua, no need to add here anythin
19:33 sapier I guess I could talk to a wall too
19:33 jin_xi its going to be another implicit- and underspecified language
19:33 jin_xi and end up like common lisp once fixed
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19:40 sapier https://gist.github.com/sa​pier/ac00d80a1fc8b00f2c3d shows why tables are not a api
19:41 sapier all of those variants will be capable to specify a gui but usually only one of them will be translatable by our parser
19:43 RealBadAngel its like you have cut formspec string defining a button and stick it again in random order and complain why it is so fucked up ;)
19:43 RealBadAngel ofc we will need some rules
19:44 sapier come one don't you wanna understand that THOSE RULES are same crazy shit as formspecs are?
19:44 sapier and those rules are the actual api not the tables
19:45 sapier it'd be no big deal to translate formspec to tables because formspecs are way more specific
19:45 RealBadAngel but theres one thing talkin pro tables, theyre native in lua
19:45 RealBadAngel so manipulating them is extremaly easy
19:46 RealBadAngel when we will introduce something like html/css we will end up with difficulty manipulating the elements
19:46 sapier formspec is almost a typ0 grammar
19:47 sapier not exactly true since tables have been added
19:47 RealBadAngel formspec is just playing with lotsa glue
19:47 sapier your tables will require even more glue
19:47 RealBadAngel and then theres no option to edit/change, just do it again from scratch
19:47 RealBadAngel no
19:47 sapier of course
19:48 sapier because your table still may break on any edit
19:48 RealBadAngel break because of what?
19:48 sapier pos = nil
19:48 sapier boom broken
19:49 RealBadAngel why broken?
19:49 sapier tables give way more flexibility ... but at cost of way more complexity too
19:49 sapier because a button with pos nil results in broken formspec
19:49 sapier -formspec + gui
19:50 RealBadAngel so parser just pisses on such element and skips it
19:50 sapier and it's not the tables defining the gui but those rules
19:50 RealBadAngel i dont see any problems there
19:50 sapier then don't do it for a button but for a tab
19:51 sapier I know if someone doesn't want to see the problem he wont see it ... it's always been same
19:51 jin_xi the plan is to write a parser for lua tables?
19:51 sapier but don't expect a full featured type1, maybe even type2 grammar to be less parsable then a almost type0 one
19:51 RealBadAngel "parser" rather
19:52 RealBadAngel iterate over table elements and fill in existing structures on c++ side
19:52 sapier actually meant to be less effort to parse
19:52 sapier iterate a tree?
19:52 sapier level by level? branch by branch?
19:53 sapier we've got lua you can do a prototype implementation there and see how much work it is
19:54 RealBadAngel much less than with any other solution
19:54 sapier I use tables in mobf so don't believe I haven't thought about it for fstk ... I decided not to use them because of being not specific enough and thus requireing way to much docs and check functions
19:57 sapier still you're free to write a prototype in lua, straight forward implementation without checks and error handling will be a matter of days ... later one will require weeks
19:59 sapier especially if you don't wanna have a use look for ages to find a missing parameter
20:00 sapier e.g. if he did write tooItip instead of tooltip
20:00 sfan5 relevant: something I made last year http://sprunge.us/XMhi?lua
20:01 sapier looks almost like the prototype I mentioned, a year ago? and still no error handling ? ;-)
20:02 sfan5 there is error handling
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20:03 sapier how is it supposed to work?
20:03 sfan5 tables goes in, formspec string comes out
20:03 sapier oh I see if it's not known it's an error
20:04 sapier does it handle missing parameters too?
20:04 sfan5 sure
20:04 sfan5 (it should)
20:05 sapier and how are optionals handled?
20:06 sfan5 see lines 93-107
20:07 sapier different lookup tables
20:08 sapier ok so what'd be the difference to current formspecs ... modifying a form would be more easy
20:08 sapier as your top level table is indexed it's most likely keep it's order too
20:09 proller sapier, you need make your fork with keeping strings in formspec
20:09 proller sapiertest !
20:10 sapier I don't wanna keep formspecs if there's a reasonable good replacement but I don't wanna have formspecs replaced by formspecs2
20:11 sapier sfan5 this most likely will improve writing of tables too ... but wont help for tabs
20:13 sapier maybe we should first find out what a formspec replacement shall be capable to do
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20:19 RealBadAngel easy of modyfing an element, removing it etc
20:19 RealBadAngel without need to rewrite whole form
20:19 sapier https://gist.github.com/sa​pier/8648a89011bfd0897f76 any additional requirements?
20:20 RealBadAngel "detectable" is not needed
20:20 RealBadAngel table can hold extra mods data for example
20:20 sapier no
20:20 sapier if you want this add some addon_params field
20:21 RealBadAngel check for predefined fields
20:21 RealBadAngel if type == "button" etc
20:21 RealBadAngel this way parameters are flexible
20:21 RealBadAngel you check if theyre provided or nil
20:21 sapier additional data has to be separated from form data if you don't do it you never can tell if it's correct or not
20:22 sapier that's implementation detail rba
20:22 RealBadAngel but explainin your questions
20:22 RealBadAngel table from its definition can hold anything
20:22 sapier a table is a format not an api
20:23 RealBadAngel its up to table reader what it looks for
20:23 sapier lets do formspecs in bytes
20:23 sapier a byte can hold anything
20:23 sapier absolutely free to read and modify
20:24 sapier ... sorry forgot to enable the "ironic" tag ;-)
20:24 RealBadAngel i got it ;)
20:25 RealBadAngel btw, can i push this wordwrap and height thing?
20:25 sapier it's still two true/false changes and two height changes?
20:25 sapier or did you have to change other things too?
20:26 RealBadAngel two true->false, one ascender->height
20:26 sapier thought it's been two ascender-> height?
20:26 RealBadAngel second was not so right, caused text in checkboxes not being in line with boxes
20:27 RealBadAngel but a little bit lower
20:28 sapier that's bad
20:28 RealBadAngel not really
20:29 RealBadAngel second was really meant as height of a character not line
20:29 sapier I see
20:29 sapier I already tested those 3 changes yesterday and it did look fine for me
20:29 RealBadAngel so pushing
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20:32 sapier https://gist.github.com/sa​pier/8648a89011bfd0897f76 any objections? if not I'm gonna push it next
20:32 sapier fixes two issues
20:36 RealBadAngel ahem, check it ;)
20:36 proller sapier, your fork must have xml formspec
20:36 RealBadAngel i mean the link ;)
20:37 RealBadAngel unless youre going to push now formspecs replacement
20:37 sapier lol ... I meant this one: https://gist.github.com/sa​pier/cc2b30a55c7afe4e2572
20:37 RealBadAngel damn youre fast ;)
20:37 sapier I know I'm fast but not that fast ;-)
20:40 RealBadAngel idk what above is for ;)
20:40 RealBadAngel btw, since tooltips are in, we have lotsa work to do now
20:41 sapier right now if you run minetest (debug build) on a machine without ipv6 support it immediatly exits with a very cryptic message not telling you anything about why it exited
20:41 sapier I don't have work, you added it you're gonna add the descriptions ;-P
20:42 RealBadAngel i do have my own rdy
20:42 RealBadAngel but all of them will need translations too :)
20:43 sapier guess what ... you're gonna have a lot of work to do to get your inventory ready for android
20:43 sapier it's just tooo big
20:44 sapier ok I'm pushing that ipv6 fix now
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20:47 sapier does anyone know how to fix this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1389 ?
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