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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-05-14

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09:12 john_minetest Hey
09:12 john_minetest https://github.com/minetest/minete​st/pull/1216#issuecomment-43058428
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09:48 Exio4 what if the user runs a server?
09:48 Exio4 nvm
09:48 Exio4 thought it was another issue, not the same
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12:12 Megaf morning
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12:31 dsimon Hey all; I'm the author of PR 1285. There's no comments on it or anything yet, so I was hoping to get some feedback on whether anything needs to change in it.
12:46 Megaf #1285
12:46 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1285 -- Debugging visualization for MapBlock boundaries by DavidMikeSimon
12:48 Megaf dsimon: I think it's a great functionality
12:48 dsimon Megaf, cool, thanks :-)
12:49 dsimon I needed it in particular because I'm working on an alternate way to transfer mapblocks
12:49 Megaf proller: PilzAdam: what do you think about #1285 ?
12:49 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1285 -- Debugging visualization for MapBlock boundaries by DavidMikeSimon
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16:32 sapier #1285 seems mostly fine
16:32 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1285 -- Debugging visualization for MapBlock boundaries by DavidMikeSimon
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16:39 BlockMen sapier, is there anything why formspec toolkit is not merged yet?
16:39 sapier there's not been any response to various requests for comment
16:40 sapier I don't merge pulls that big without anyone to agree to it
16:40 BlockMen ic
16:41 sapier I fixed all critizized points no matter how pointless I believe them to be but seems like ppl only want to complain but not agree ;-)
16:42 sapier talking about agreeing, I'm gonna merge #1278 in about half an hour if there are no comments about problems
16:42 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1278 -- Map irrlicht log level to minetest. Allow write irrlicht logs to debug file. by RealBadAngel
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16:52 Megaf sapier: I tested the formspec and it's ok to me
16:52 Megaf it works
16:52 Megaf and you know how hard is for me to like something
16:53 Megaf sapier: 1278 cant cause any harm, or can it?
16:53 sapier well there's nothing particular to like about it, in best case there's no change at all ... which isn't exactly true as there is a minor change
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16:53 sapier the game bar now supports scrolling on to many games
16:53 Megaf yep, and it works
16:53 Megaf so it's fine
16:54 sapier I don't think 1278 can do anything wrong
16:54 Megaf now, I'm curious about #1285, that may be really useful somehow
16:54 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1285 -- Debugging visualization for MapBlock boundaries by DavidMikeSimon
16:55 Megaf bye the way sapier, I fixed my server, I found some interesting facts about network and cpu usage
16:56 sapier yes megaf, I'm quite interested as you have a very special setup
17:12 Megaf hm
17:12 Megaf it would be could if we coud use P2P to load media
17:12 Megaf I wonder how hard would it be
17:13 crazyR i see a slight issue with that.. you would need to checksum each file, as it wouldnt be hard for someone to modify say some of the images, or worst plant malware in them..
17:15 crazyR its a cool idea though if it could be done safely
17:18 Megaf and if not P2P
17:18 Megaf there could be a fast and official media server
17:18 Megaf That would host all common media from common mods
17:19 Megaf maybe CloudFlare
17:20 crazyR cloudflare is just a cdn as far as im aware... but thats an idea fo its, own, what if we could intergrate the cloudflare api
17:21 Megaf I'm not sure if we need to use any APT
17:21 Megaf we could use just HTTP
17:21 * Megaf doesnt know how CloudFlare works
17:26 sapier to use p2p we'd require to use a p2p library as I don't wanna handle nat traversion firewall penetration and things like that on my own ;-)
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17:36 Megaf well, we could just use a fast server as main server for media
17:36 Megaf and maybe add some mirrors and keep them commented
17:38 dsimon alternately, you could use bittorrent
17:39 Megaf that's p2p ;)
17:39 sapier problem with bittorrent is you risk being slowed down by providers l7 firewalls
17:40 sapier not mentioning all those false positive "you have downloaded copyrighted material" claims ;-)
17:40 dsimon bt does support an encryption mode that makes protocol analysis like that harder...
17:40 dsimon but perhaps that's not a war of escalation worth getting into :-)
17:40 Megaf metalink is pretty cool
17:40 Megaf metalink uses http, bittorrent and http and others
17:40 sapier the question is do we really need it?
17:40 Megaf sapier: sure
17:41 sapier for what?
17:41 Megaf sometime a single connection client and use all servers uplink
17:41 Megaf connectins client*
17:41 Megaf fetching media
17:41 sapier last time we did add a "faster" media protocol this was added because noone did want to fix the real bugs ;)
17:41 sapier now we have to maintain both
17:42 Megaf So why don't we fix bugs instead of looking for workarounds?
17:42 sapier megaf that's not supposed to happen if you set parameters correct
17:43 sapier if you set max_packets_per_iteration to correct value it's gonna be impossible for a single client to use all your bandwith
17:43 sapier there's no perfect default for it as minetest can't guess the servers bandwidth
17:44 Megaf maybe a handshake could solve that
17:44 sapier no
17:44 Megaf client asks, hey server, how fast can you send me your data?
17:44 Megaf server replies, I don't know, let's see
17:44 sapier and what does this tell for other clients?
17:45 Megaf some servers would avarage out the numbers
17:45 Megaf but I don't think that's a good aproach
17:45 sapier it's a tradeoff automatic detection is likely to fail on various setups
17:46 sapier while semi automatic (like we do now) depends on server admin to find the best setup for his server
17:47 sapier and for what I know your connection is quite a challange, slow cpu asymetric (small) dsl line
17:47 sapier that's like driving a 50cm² bike and expecting it to compete with a ferrari ;)
17:48 Megaf not a slow CPU, just a software that doesnt know how to use its power
17:48 sapier well minetest is a generic application not a highly specialized app suitable for mobile devices
17:49 Megaf minetesetserver is a very specific applications, that should have as most CPU demanding tasks the mapgen and light calculation things
17:49 Megaf and thats not what uses my CPU
17:50 sapier and performing low latency packet switching
17:50 sapier player movement and actions have to be transmitted to other players as fast as possible
17:50 Megaf light calculations and mapgen could be done by, on PCs, OpenCL
17:50 Megaf and on ARM, its "GPU'
17:51 Megaf 14:50:49   +sapier | player movement and actions have to be transmitted to other players as fast as possible
17:51 Megaf well, that will depend on what kind of game minetest is
17:51 sapier well if you know someone to write that code you have my full support ;-)
17:52 sapier but the things you demand are all way from simple changes ;-)
17:52 sapier it'd be way more easy for you to buy a faster machine
17:54 Megaf no fun
17:54 crazyR to be fair thought it shouldnt be a question of how easy is it. it should be a question of is it going to make things better. if the awnser is yes, then we should be ploughing through it and finding a way for it to be done. ie of one of can not code it then we find someone who can and kindly push for it to be implemented
17:54 sapier I don't say your ideas aren't good, they are for sure. They're just a lot of work dedicated for a very very specific scenario
17:55 sapier crazyR we're all doing this in our freetime, time spent to benefit gained ration is a BIG issue
17:56 sapier adding a feature bothering only a couple of ppl instead of fixing issues paining almost everyone is hard to explain
17:57 sapier but still, if someone wants to do this and provides the code that'd be perfectly ok
17:57 crazyR i understand that. and so are us, who put our hard earned cash into hosting these games. i aslo try to contribute code where i can. but one thing i have noticed in this community and i dont mean everyone but most people have the "if it doesnt affect me then it doesnt matter" attitiude
17:58 sapier well crazyR then you most likely met wrong ppl. Yet you can't expect us to fix only your problems. Therefore if you find others supporting your suggestions chances they'll be addressed increase
17:59 sapier minetest is free, evereyone does what she/he WANTS to do, if you need some feature you'll have to find a way to persuade someone to do it, or do it yourself
18:00 sapier and for example megaf is the only one I know using a pi for a minetest server. One person isn't enough for me to even start to do a change that big.
18:01 sapier sorry megaf, if there's no other issue we need to do this for
18:02 crazyR sapier, ive not made no problem, or had no problems to as to be fixed, so to speak, Ive been lucky enought to only need to observe and where posible help. and sapier, most of the time when i want something done i go at it my self, simply because i see to many people ask for things then se them get moan at.. "oh its not important" or "yeah what ever"  the list goes on. Im not here saying to implement anything of the above. i simply made a
18:02 crazyR comment based on observation, you didnt like it and have turned it into a tit for tat debate.
18:04 sapier I don't know how long you follow MT crazyR but you should know I'm actually only interested in mob related things ... so why do I do all those things I did recently?
18:05 crazyR hmm im not sure, sapier. maybe its because your a core dev.. I would think its your responcability to put that little bit more effort into it that the average contributer. am i right?
18:06 troller sapier, because you like uselesss shitcode ;)
18:06 sapier as everyone else I still spend my freetime ... even to talk to the usuall trolls ;-P
18:06 troller maybe mojang pays you for killing MT
18:07 sapier I thought he's allready paying you troller, he wont pay two ppl
18:07 troller show my killing actions
18:08 sapier I've wasted to much time for useless discussions like that, I wont do it this time
18:08 crazyR useless.. what with me or with megaf?
18:09 sapier troller ;-)
18:09 troller so im only stopping you to killing
18:09 sapier megaf's request is perfectly fine
18:09 Calinou <Megaf> it would be could if we coud use P2P to load media
18:09 Calinou <Megaf> I wonder how hard would it be
18:09 Calinou too complex
18:09 Calinou the files are small anyway
18:10 sapier well you haven't requested anything crazyR but at least you don't tell trollers usuall "everything you do is bad" ;-)
18:10 sapier most time without giving any specific reason
18:10 troller you ignore all reasons
18:11 sapier #1241 ... is perfect example for me not ignoring complains
18:11 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1241 -- Add formspec toolkit and refactor mainmenu to use it by sapier
18:11 troller you just adding next 1000 lines
18:12 troller change one shitcode to another
18:12 sapier see what I'm talking about? ;-P
18:14 crazyR lol. come to think of it i have a suggestion.......    what about haveing the minetest server side  install a deamon. 1) makes our lives easier, also gives us the ability to auto restart upon crash without having to use hacky scripts
18:15 sfan5 lolwat
18:15 sapier there's nothing like a autostarting daemon on linux ;-)
18:15 sfan5 using scripts is not hacky
18:16 crazyR why isnt it hacky. its forcing a program/app/script to do something it wasnt designed to do
18:16 crazyR its doing it because we have no other choice
18:17 sapier crazyR maybe you know more then me how would you do a autostarting daemon on linx?
18:17 sfan5 no, minetest wasn't designed to be autostarted
18:17 sfan5 s/no, //
18:17 sfan5 autorestarted*
18:18 Calinou auto-restart script is fine to do
18:18 crazyR if it was intstalled as a deamon, then upstart could watch over it, if it stops responding then it could close the proccess via the pid. then start it up.
18:18 Calinou VanessaE has one
18:18 Calinou it's daemon, not deamon :p
18:18 sapier well my os doesn't have upstart
18:18 sapier bsd doesn't have too
18:18 Calinou Windows ;)
18:19 sapier and on linux that's basically a script thing
18:19 sfan5 crazyR: how would a program determine when it stops responding?
18:20 crazyR i wouldnt know, the ins and out of it. as thats not my area of expertise.. but what i do know, is i run several dedicated webserver. and nearly everything that i use is run via a deamon, the deamon is managed by upstart. and it works. any crashes are detected and a restart is started
18:21 sfan5 >a restart is started
18:21 sapier I don't know exactly what you're running but I guess it's basically same as a script
18:22 sfan5 if you use upstart with apache it is not automatically restarted
18:22 crazyR yes it is... if its setup correctly.
18:23 sfan5 no it does not
18:24 sapier and what does you stop from setting up upstart for minetest? ;-)
18:24 Megaf sapier: actually theres quite a big demand for RPi servers...
18:24 Megaf I've seen two more already on servers.minetest.net and topics about RPis on forums
18:24 crazyR ok, fine im lieing, like every other person who comes here with an idea. but. let just say for arguments sake, that your right and it does not.... then why the hell does nearly every linux proffesional software use a deamon
18:25 sapier megaf if you can find some supporters that's gonna rise quickly ... still you have to consider pi IS limited it will never be able to run as many players as a real pc
18:25 Amaz I like Megaf's RPi server. And I've played on another one.
18:26 sfan5 Megaf: boards like banana pi/odroid/pandaboard/beagleboard/cubieboard are way better suited than an rpi
18:26 Megaf Amaz: I should bring it back online
18:27 sapier crazyR who told you're lieing?
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18:28 sfan5 crazyR: minetestserver is already a deamon, starting/stopping/restarting them is done by your system manager (upstart, systemd etc.); no daemon I know of does this yourself
18:28 sfan5 itself*
18:28 sfan5 +by
18:29 Megaf sfan5: really?
18:29 sfan5 yes
18:29 Megaf I never used it as daemon
18:29 Megaf alway run in place
18:30 VanessaE Calinou: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/m​inetest/Server-scripts/minetestserver-creative.sh
18:30 sfan5 run in place does not really matter for daemon or not
18:30 sapier maybe we should first specify what a "daemon" is, I feel like we all understand different things
18:30 VanessaE all of the other server scripts are in that dir also.
18:30 crazyR lol sfan where did you read that.. we been talking abou this for what 5 mins, and you only just tell me this. well then if it runs as a deamon, then why does it attatch its self to the console
18:31 VanessaE also, hi.
18:31 crazyR Hi VanessaE
18:31 sapier ok crazyR so I assume your definition of "daemon" is a application detaching from console?
18:32 crazyR not specificly no, but that is not the normal behavour of a deamon
18:32 sfan5 crazyR: just because it does not fork into the bg does not mean it is not a deamon; init systems should be able to handle "daemons" that do not fork into bg too
18:32 sapier then be more precise because that feature is a 5 min fix ;-P
18:33 sfan5 not even 5 mins
18:33 sapier well the golden edge variant adding a configurable pid file too
18:34 crazyR ok to clear things up about what a daemon is, go rread this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wi​ki/Daemon_%28computing%29
18:34 crazyR then start to understand, why i dont think minetest runs as a deamon.
18:35 sfan5 if I run "minetestserver &" it would be daemon
18:35 sfan5 problem solved in 1 character
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18:35 sapier ok .. so and what's the actuall benefit of doing it this way ?
18:36 sapier I know it'd be more clean ... but still a unix only feature
18:36 sfan5 windows is not designed to run something like "daemons" and that is not a problem
18:36 crazyR the beneift is, 1) deamons always have a pid file assocaited with it, meaning it would be easier to manage. easier to shut down. easier for upstart and other managment programs to monitor(for the crashes)
18:37 sfan5 >meaning it would be easier to manage. easier to shut down.
18:37 sfan5 [citation needed]
18:37 crazyR the truely run inthebackground, not just hidden
18:37 sfan5 "minetestserver&" would run in the background
18:37 sfan5 and what's running "hidden"?
18:37 crazyR citation needed?? are you off your head... to shut it down i have to do one of 2 things..
18:38 crazyR killaa minetestserver
18:38 crazyR or look for the pid and close it that way
18:38 sfan5 >I have to do 2 things
18:38 sfan5 >foo
18:38 sfan5 >or
18:38 sfan5 >bar
18:38 sfan5 wat
18:38 sfan5 that is one thing
18:38 crazyR read
18:38 crazyR it
18:38 crazyR carefully
18:38 crazyR do get smart
18:38 sfan5 if you have a pidfile you also need to open the pidfile and kill the process, that is one thing too
18:39 sfan5 ah sorry, misread it
18:39 VanessaE minetestserver & echo $! > /var/run/minetestserver.pid
18:39 sfan5 ^
18:39 VanessaE (I think it's $! that gets you the pid of the process
18:39 VanessaE and nevermind where I put the file, that's just off the top of my head
18:40 sapier VanessaE: he doesn't like scripts he believes them to be "hacky"
18:40 crazyR Thanks VanessaE i will experiment with that. but my point is why are we having to do it this way.
18:40 VanessaE crazyR: the entirety of the Unix world is build on scripting.  you don't honestly think the files in /etc/init.d are binaries do you?
18:40 sapier linux startup was almost script only for about two decades ... but I guess that's not a valid reason for him
18:41 VanessaE many of those init scripts do exactly the same thing - they get the pid of the processes they just started so they can be used later
18:41 crazyR also sapier: i never siad i dont like scripts. i siad it should be done better
18:41 sfan5 you are implying scripts are "bad"
18:41 crazyR lol
18:41 crazyR i can see why people find it hard to suggest anythinghere
18:41 sapier >>> (20:14:39) crazyR:
18:42 sfan5 read
18:42 sfan5 it
18:42 sfan5 carefully
18:42 VanessaE crazyR: scripts are used because they're easier to customize for specific applications than binaries.
18:42 sfan5 don't get smart
18:42 sfan5 </quote from="you">
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18:43 sapier "... without having to use hacky scripts" I don't se another way to interpret this as you believing scripts to be hacky
18:43 crazyR i siad hacky scripts. i never siad i dont like scripts
18:43 crazyR learnt he diffrence
18:44 crazyR *the
18:44 VanessaE and how do you define a script as being hacky?
18:44 VanessaE because of things like keepalive in the case of minetest?
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18:44 sapier well in this case, just write a non hacky script to start your server and we alle are happy
18:44 crazyR that being one yeah.
18:45 sfan5 <VanessaE> and how do you define a script as being hacky?
18:46 crazyR why you use script to force an app to do somthing it wasnt designed to do. as stated above
18:47 VanessaE crazyR: that's the sole purpose of scripting.
18:47 sfan5 ^
18:47 VanessaE to make applications do things that they, in the singular, are not supposed to do.
18:47 sapier crazyR a programm can't supervise itself by definition
18:48 crazyR yes, but you seem to forget, that this is an app is being run to near proffessional levels. so it should be treated in the same way
18:48 sfan5 uh, what?
18:48 VanessaE just because you may only run one single application over and over (not counting containing while loop or sleep) doesn't change the fact that you're using the scripting language to do precisely what it's intended for
18:48 sfan5 how do you define "professional applications"?
18:48 VanessaE crazyR: Minetest is NOT enterprise-level software.
18:48 VanessaE no one here will make that claim.
18:49 VanessaE we'd sure like it to be, but it isn't.
18:51 crazyR no it not, and no one need to claim it, but when its being run on servers that cost  in exccess of £40 + then it should be looked at as a proffesional application. when we are providing a service(allbeit a free service) to all the players out there who use our servers then its our responcability to push for it to be made to work like a proffesional app.
18:52 jin_xi you'd be surprised as of what kind of code lurks beneath many a shiny professional surface
18:52 sfan5 wat :D
18:53 sfan5 if I run "bash" on a server that costs more than €40, "bash" automagically is a "professional application"?
18:54 crazyR lol no but you should damn well trwat it like it is. why would you waste that sort of money otherwise...  if you think of it as just another file sat on the hd, then you show alot of neglect.
18:54 crazyR *treat
18:55 sfan5 so "running scripts on servers that cost more than €40" = "waste of money"?
18:56 crazyR but forget about the money aspect. heck forget about the service aspect.. we use this app on a daily basis, why the hell are we "scripting" to make it do what 60% or more of us want it todo anyhow?
18:56 sfan5 <VanessaE> crazyR: that's the sole purpose of scripting.
18:56 sfan5 did you not understand that?
18:57 sapier crazyR I guess instead of discussing this here just write a feature request on github this change is as small as you might even have a chance someone is gonna implement it while doing something else
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18:59 crazyR lmao sfan is that all your going todo... copy and paste other peoples awnsers and ask for definitions. how about say something usefull or helpfull or dont say anything on this topic. sapier, i refuse to  write anything on minetest's github as it turns into a warzone.. but then again, as i found out here tonight, its not worth commenting here, neither as it has the same outcome
18:59 Anchakor_ crazyR: all server hosting services are like that - shielding clients from the configuration of management of the servers, why should minetest be any different?
18:59 VanessaE wait a minute, what?
18:59 sfan5 ^
18:59 VanessaE head --> desk
19:00 sfan5 crazyR: please clean your system of "hacky" scripts entirely; if you're done we'll see how well it runs
19:00 sfan5 also I just tried to tell you that the whole point of scripting is to make applications do things they aren't designed to
19:00 sfan5 that like..
19:01 sapier lol crazyR you're doing to easy, once you're requested to do what any professional would do you refuse to do it
19:01 sfan5 saying CMake should support downloading libraries, building minetest (already done) & uploading it for me because I currently use "hacky" (according to your definiton) scripts to do this automatically
19:02 VanessaE crazyR: let me give you a TRUE definition of hacky:
19:03 VanessaE http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/7464277/
19:03 VanessaE see this?
19:03 VanessaE I put this little bit of code into place yesterday because bfgminer has a bug that makes it hang up after a while.  Since I can't fix it, I set up a script to kill it and restart it after 1 hour.
19:03 VanessaE THAT is hacky.
19:04 VanessaE (not exactly on-topic for this channel, but it IS a mining application...  just a different kind of mining ;) )
19:04 Anchakor_ sounds like the guy is trying to con other people into doing what is part of his job
19:05 sfan5 VanessaE: dogecoin or litecoin?
19:05 VanessaE sfan5: it pays out in dogecoin.
19:05 Megaf VanessaE: yep, Im thinking in making a script to restart mineteserserver every hour
19:05 sfan5 Megaf: why that?
19:05 puhfa is there a valid, preferred way to suggest new features or discuss about those?
19:05 VanessaE crazyR: the proper, NON-hacky way to do what I did in this script would have been to fix bfgminer to not get stuck in the first place, andjust not even bother with the do/while loop.
19:05 dsimon puhfa, write PR? ;-)
19:06 puhfa so far i have seen github pull requests and #minetest-dev discussions very quickly turn into this kind of non-productive nitpicking
19:06 VanessaE Megaf: don't restart your minetest server repeatedly.  that's pointless.  restart it daily when you take backups, like I do.  THAT has a point.
19:06 crazyR carefull puhfa, they will ask you to citate
19:06 puhfa good point
19:06 crazyR heck my spelling is bad
19:07 sfan5 puhfa: github issues; also this mostly happens to stuff many people disagree with
19:07 puhfa anyway, i understand that there is a close-knit group formed around the core development and thats all fine and dandy, but if there is a preferred way to participate, id like to know that
19:07 puhfa if i want to rant and split hairs, i have my own channels for that
19:07 crazyR listen the point i was trying to make before it turned into this mess. is that upstart monitors the proccess... that is how it determines if the app is crashed. thus restarting it.
19:08 sfan5 crazyR: that is done the most effectively with a script
19:08 VanessaE crazyR: did you read the above script or not?
19:08 puhfa sounds like a daemon to me but im no expert on networking or operating systems. i only know that there are other oses supporting similar things even if they dont call them exactly daemons
19:08 VanessaE christ in a cartoon, did you read EITHER of the scripts I linked to??
19:09 puhfa and yeah, you can always write a for (;;) equivalent instead
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19:09 VanessaE and why the hell are we discussing this here in -dev in the first place?
19:09 crazyR Vanessae i read it but i dont see the point it writing scripts to do somthing that half the other osses have builtin scripts an apps to do the same or similar things.
19:09 crazyR the onlky thing they rely on is that the app is built correctly
19:10 VanessaE *facepalm*
19:10 puhfa thats another good question. why everything on #minetest is about placing felines on other peoples heads?
19:10 sfan5 >that half the other osses have builtin
19:10 sfan5 which OSs have that?
19:10 puhfa again, is there a preferred channel for this kind of questions?
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19:10 puhfa sfan5: windows for instance does have its services
19:10 sfan5 puhfa: -dev is for development
19:10 sfan5 puhfa: windows is not important for servers
19:10 puhfa so is there a #minetest-drphil then?
19:10 crazyR lmao,
19:10 puhfa sfan5: name an os other than an unix variant that is
19:11 sfan5 bsd
19:11 puhfa touche
19:11 dsimon bsd is a unix variant :-|
19:11 sfan5 (strictly that is an unix variant too)
19:11 VanessaE crazyR: what do you mean by "built in scripts and apps to do the same"?   citation needed.
19:12 VanessaE and I mean program names, paths, script names, exit status, etc.
19:12 puhfa i would still like to see people answering even one question here or directing people elsewhere if questions are not welcome on -dev, which i would perfectly understand too
19:12 puhfa or if such a channel does not exists yet (doesnt have to be an irc channel), there is apparent demand for one
19:12 puhfa +english
19:13 crazyR wow. ok upstart for linux, does the monitoring, taskmanager monitors on windows, and im sure any other os worth its name has an app to do that. so what i was saying above is why are we/ you writing scripts to that very same job
19:13 sfan5 >taskmanager monitors on windows
19:13 VanessaE puhfa: any question you want to ask regarding development of the engine (and sometimes the default games) can be asked here.
19:13 sfan5 since when does taskmanager start/restart services?
19:13 sfan5 >im sure any other os worth its name has an app to do that
19:13 sfan5 iOS, Android?
19:13 VanessaE crazyR: an app to do WHAT exactly?
19:14 puhfa VanessaE: okay. so clearly crazyR is in the wrong place then. is there any other channel he could have a better chance of getting his answers?
19:14 VanessaE to watchdog a process?
19:14 crazyR yes
19:14 crazyR pretty much
19:14 VanessaE puhfa: if he wants to take up his questions in this community, #minetest.
19:14 VanessaE crazyR: linux has such programs too.
19:14 VanessaE we just don't use them all the time because sometimes scripting is more convenient.
19:14 crazyR wow. im talking to a walll
19:14 Anchakor_ crazyR: what exactly you want? someone to write you an upstart config for MT? you have the config and want to share it?
19:15 VanessaE convenience and maintainability trumps "built-in, already does that job" nearly every single time, provided the result is not slower
19:15 puhfa okay. from what ive understood the chances of seeing any real discussion there are very slim
19:15 sfan5 crazyR: http://upstart.ubuntu.com/getting-started.html see "Writing Jobs"
19:15 sfan5 upstart uses scripts too
19:15 VanessaE puhfa: right *now*, yeah.  later you can expect more relevant discussion
19:15 puhfa but i will take my rant there then and will not bother you guys anymore unless its engine related
19:16 puhfa VanessaE: so far i havent seen any :P
19:16 VanessaE puhfa: 90% of what goes on in here is strictly on-topic.  this discussion here is actually quite opposite of the norm
19:17 crazyR didnt realise that my suggesion wasnt DEV based
19:17 crazyR i do appologise
19:17 VanessaE crazyR: in other words, by G*d I will use a cron job or some simply 5-10 line script if it gets the job done better for my needs than some built-in program, script, upstart job, etc. if it also means I can more easily understand and maintain that script, make it do something new, etc.
19:17 VanessaE s/simply/simple/
19:18 Anchakor_ I run linux for almost 10 years and never got to work with upstart, heard about it maybe once
19:24 crazyR Anchakor_  I beleive thats personal choice. im sure there was other similar apps that did similar things before upstart. the point immaking is not neccerily directed towards upstart. but in genral. why should we have to create scripts to do something that most os's are capable of doing already. provided the app is built as a deamon.
19:25 sfan5 upstart is capable of running minetestserver as a daemon
19:25 sfan5 guess what it uses!
19:25 crazyR lol go on sfan5. enlighten me
19:25 sfan5 right! upstart uses scripts for that"
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19:25 sfan5 S/"/!/
19:25 sfan5 <sfan5> crazyR: http://upstart.ubuntu.com/getting-started.html see "Writing Jobs"
19:27 Anchakor_ well that is what people who sell gaming servers do - write scripts and manage the servers, you should be prepared to o that if you want to host servers
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19:29 crazyR ahh right so your one of the few who promote hindering the learning of others through direct action, by telling them to go pay for a prebuilt pres setup server. what an idiot.
19:29 sfan5 if you want to continue insulting people please leave
19:31 crazyR sfan5> if you want to continue insulting people please leave <<--- sfan i am leaving, i dont think its fair on others to see this debate. and i really can  not be bother, its not constructive in the slightest. and by the way, you saw me as being insulting, well you we're insulting to me. but then again, your a dev, you can.
19:31 sfan5 >what an idiot.
19:31 sfan5 nope
19:31 sfan5 not insulting
19:31 VanessaE crazyR: you're arguing with people who have already done this stuff
19:31 VanessaE been there, done that, GOT PAID TO DO IT.
19:31 sfan5 >you're a dev, you can
19:32 sfan5 what does being a dev have to do with it?
19:32 Anchakor_ crazyR: and you are one of those who demand others to do what you want, with no regard for the fact that it actualy has almost nothing to do with their (voluntary and unpaid) job
19:32 crazyR there is no argument. IT WAS A SUGGESTION THAT YOU GUIYS OBVIOUSLY DIDNT LIKE, AND DECIDED THAT I MUST BE BELITTLED IN ORDER TO MAKE YOUR SMALL MINDS FEEL BETTER
19:32 VanessaE crazyR: no one's belittling you.
19:32 sfan5 here you go again
19:32 crazyR really
19:33 VanessaE you're the one launching into insults here.
19:33 sfan5 I would count that as an insult
19:33 VanessaE "small minds"?
19:33 sfan5 the suggestion of adding an option for e.g. forking into bg is not bad, we like it
19:34 Anchakor_ crazyR: why didn't you just say "I wish there was an upstart script bundled with minetest" and stopped at that?
19:34 VanessaE crazyR: you're arguing for us to do shit that we don't believe is really needed in minetest at this point in its development.
19:35 crazyR Vanessae: that is my exact point "you're arguing for us to do shit that we don't believe is really needed in minetest at this point in its development."    who decides what is needed. the community the ones that make suggestions or the core devs?
19:35 VanessaE sfan5: a good idea indeed, but since the same can be done with a simple ampersand, it's not needed yet.
19:35 VanessaE crazyR: a meeting of minds, but ultimately the core devs make that decision.
19:35 sfan5 crazyR: whether something is needed or not is argued with everyone, but <quote>ultimately the core devs make that decision.</quote>
19:36 Anchakor_ in short those who do the work do the decision, whether it ends up as part of a MT or a fork
19:36 dsimon Anchakor, upstart is actually relatively new on the init management scene
19:37 dsimon and it's ubuntu specific
19:37 dsimon so it's not that odd that you may not have seen it
19:37 Anchakor_ yeah, no surprise it is largery ignored
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19:38 sfan5 systemd FTW
19:38 dsimon or supervisord
19:38 VanessaE no love for sysv? ;)
19:38 crazyR guys/girls/women those who arnt so sure... you are all obviously a verry close bunch. and dont like views that conflict with your own, so i wont waste any more of my time here. take care good luck. enjoy. bye
19:38 crazyR left #minetest-dev
19:39 sfan5 (even if I use xubuntu myself, systemd is better[but not perfect])
19:39 VanessaE ...
19:39 dsimon so anyways, i removed my editorconfig change from #1285 and moved it to #1301
19:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1285 -- Debugging visualization for MapBlock boundaries by DavidMikeSimon
19:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1301 -- Added editorconfig file by DavidMikeSimon
19:39 VanessaE *gasp* a core dev related question?
19:39 sfan5 :D
19:54 sapier #1302 nfc
19:54 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1302 -- Add daemon support for linux like operating systems by sapier
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19:59 VanessaE sapier: see #minetest log when you get a sec.
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20:34 Megaf oops
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20:54 cerulean256 can someone describe what object:get_luaentity().collect does... i can't find this method in the docs.
21:02 sapier cerulean256: where do you have that from?
21:02 CraigyDavi cerulean256, If I'm not mistaken.. it should get the object entity and collect it in the players inventory
21:03 CraigyDavi I belive it is from item_drop mod
21:03 sapier object:get_luaentity() provides a entity while .collect accesses the "collect" member of that entity
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21:05 sapier you can set whatever member you want, so I'd not be surprised if this wasn't a official api element
21:06 sapier if it's from that mod most likely the one who wrote it can tell you what he did save in that param
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21:27 CraigyDavi Is this a bug? https://mediacru.sh/YdnDNoT5bnwx.png IP shows as 0.0.0.0.
21:27 proller no
21:30 CraigyDavi Ok
21:31 sapier 0.0.0.0 is "listen to all interfaces"
21:33 CraigyDavi Ah I see
21:33 cerulean256 Well PilzAdam wrote it :)
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21:44 RealBadAngel hi
21:44 RealBadAngel new commit about shaders:
21:44 RealBadAngel #1303
21:45 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1303 -- Unite nodes shaders. by RealBadAngel
21:45 sapier RealBadAngel:  compiles
21:45 sapier btw is there any way to stop channels from waving like big ocean? ;.)
21:46 RealBadAngel atm no
21:50 RealBadAngel and i cant even imagine how one should make connection from waving to non-waving surfaces
21:54 sapier hmm sad, can you think about it?
21:55 RealBadAngel maybe some day
21:55 sapier well waving is cool but once you have a lot of small water channels it just looks strange :-(
21:56 RealBadAngel to make them behave different way, another water would be needed
21:56 RealBadAngel i mean another node
22:08 sapier hmm maybe that wouldn't even be the worst thing
22:08 RealBadAngel like ocean_water and still_water
22:10 sapier for example ... we'd most likely need some abms for transformation too .. well a lot of finetuning
22:11 jin_xi so, i started working on a patch to fix some weird code in particles
22:11 jin_xi but now im baffled
22:12 jin_xi https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/m​aster/src/script/common/c_converter.cpp#L88 so, those two functions are the same, amirite?
22:13 jin_xi read and check_v3f
22:16 sapier possible
22:16 sapier must have missed that when collecting those functions from different parts of code to a single file
22:17 jin_xi read_v3f is used mostly check_v3f only mostly in particles
22:18 jin_xi ^ fail sentence
22:19 sapier I think you should replace the check by read
22:19 jin_xi well, on a closer look, they re slighlty different
22:20 jin_xi one uses lua_tonumber the other luaL_checknumber
22:20 sapier hmmm what's the difference?
22:20 jin_xi i am wondering too
22:21 RealBadAngel better idea: on mapgen generate two kinds of water - ocean and lake/rivers
22:22 RealBadAngel only ocean water could wave
22:22 RealBadAngel then no abms needed at all
22:22 sapier hmm hard to tell the only possible difference I can imagine from docs is lua_checknumber may fail if param is a string type
22:23 jin_xi ok, so it seems tonumber is more tolerant and gives 0 when no number or numeric string is there and the other will throw error in that case
22:23 jin_xi what you said
22:23 sapier I don't know why that difference should be relevant
22:24 sapier my guess is this wasn't intentionally but only different coders writing them
22:24 jin_xi i'd rather use read
22:25 sapier well I suggest replacing check by read and then give it some time to review, maybe some other dev knows a issue we don't think about right now
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