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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-05-07

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Time Nick Message
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01:44 ShadowNinja I made this get_core_version patch for the Minetest IRC mod.  It's MUCH nicer than a API function because it's unlikely people will do version comparisons with this.  ;-) http://ix.io/c8C/diff
01:45 ShadowNinja It tries to find the bin path by using the modpath, or `which`, or assuming /usr/bin.  It then tries to use `git describe` to find the version, if that fails it opens up the binary and looks for "VER=".
01:46 ShadowNinja Foolproof!
01:48 ShadowNinja It works quite well.  It only fails for systemwide installs that aren't in the path or /usr/bin/.  Or platforms where `which` is missing.
01:48 ShadowNinja I should probably remove the git detection actually, since the binery can be a different version that what you're using.
01:48 ShadowNinja binary*
01:49 ShadowNinja Oh, and lod versions might not have a VER= set.
01:49 ShadowNinja old*
01:49 ShadowNinja I haven't tested it on Windows, but it should work there too.
02:04 ShadowNinja Any objections to http://ix.io/c8F/diff ?  I'll push it semi-soon.
02:33 ShadowNinja I've created a proper version API.  It returns something like this: {["patch"] = 9, ["minor"] = 4, ["string"] = "0.4.9-dev", ["hash"] = "0.4.9-214-gc80d67f-dirty", ["extra"] = "", ["major"] = 0}
02:34 ShadowNinja The main menu API already had a simpler version of this for display.
02:35 ShadowNinja The major/minor/patch fields could be removed if that would make strict version checks less likely.
02:37 ShadowNinja I also have a patch adding write_json to the async API pending (I missed that before).
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05:28 sfan5 ShadowNinja: >it's unlikely people will do version comparisons with this.   Don't assume modders won't do what they can't.
05:28 sfan5 s/can't/can/
05:29 ShadowNinja sfan5: O.K.  I'll assume that modders will write executable reading functions like this and use them for raw version checking.
05:30 sfan5 maybe not that, but if it were to get added to the API
05:30 ShadowNinja sfan5: But comments on a proper API function?
05:31 ShadowNinja sfan5: I just did that, minus the version checking.
05:32 * ShadowNinja is trying to implement luaL_typerror for a Lua 5.2 update.
06:14 ShadowNinja \o/ Minetest compiles with Lua 5.2 now.  'Night.
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16:42 celeron55 does someone oppose it if the "minetest" and "engine" namespaces in Lua are officially renamed to "core"? the reason for doing this is to not make forks of minetest need to support the name of every other fork, and the reason why i propose "core" is because it's short and sounds better than "engine" when combined with a dot and some function
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16:43 celeron55 also if someone can propose a better name, at least i can consider it; i'm not really happy with these alternatives
16:46 celeron55 (i personally don't like this transition but it has to be done in order to not cause problems in the long run)
16:46 Megaf Sound good to me
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17:04 BlockMen celeron55, i prefer engine, not least because we already have engine
17:06 * BlockMen still want opinons on this: https://github.com/minetest/minete​st/pull/1265#issuecomment-42318782
17:07 sapier ShadowNinja: you didn't really understand why we do not support reading core version from api do you?
17:07 ShadowNinja sapier: I do understand why.  But it's a bad reason.
17:08 sapier no it's the only correct reason, btw if you way of reading it was encouraged we'd never ever have a chance to really sandbox mods in order to get them fool proof
17:09 sapier opening arbitrary files especially binaries is worst thing you can do if you want to get a safe environment
17:11 ShadowNinja sapier: The binary reading way is encouraged by not offering another option (other than memory inspection)
17:11 sapier celeron55: Yes I'm against renaming too, it's just adding another compatibility layer for no really understandable reason. saving 4 letters isn't a reason to me justifying modifying any mod out there or adding another compatibility alias
17:11 celeron55 i propose that we expose an api that gives out a version string, in the format "Minetest x.y.z"
17:11 sapier we already have way to much compatibility code we need to get rid of
17:11 celeron55 the reason is that apparently some mods just want to tell the user on what they are running
17:12 celeron55 sapier: what?
17:12 celeron55 so "minetest = core" is too much code?
17:12 celeron55 come on now
17:12 sapier what's use for doing so?
17:12 celeron55 i explained why it has to be done, please read it
17:12 sapier you just add confusion because of mods use mixed mode
17:12 celeron55 19:45:46 <@celeron55> does someone oppose it if the "minetest" and "engine" namespaces in Lua are officially renamed  to "core"? the reason for doing this is to not make forks of minetest need to support the name  of every other fork, and the reason why i propose "core" is because it's short and sounds  better than "engine" when combined with a dot and some function
17:12 sapier I read it but I can't follow your explanation
17:12 celeron55 19:45:51 -!- mode/#minetest-dev [-o celeron55] by celeron55
17:13 sapier renaming something widely used because it "sounds" better isn't a reason I understand
17:13 BlockMen core doesnt sound better than engine
17:13 celeron55 ---------------> "the reason for doing this is to not make forks of minetest need to support the name  of every other fork"
17:14 celeron55 are people blind or what
17:14 celeron55 there will be a day when some fork decides that they don't want "minetest" in their code, and that will hurt everyone
17:14 sapier and why do you expect forks not to customize their own api?
17:14 BlockMen ^ that
17:14 celeron55 because the api is large and most things can be done with it without extensions
17:15 sapier if they change name they most likely do it exactly to be incompatible
17:15 BlockMen and they can keep backwards compatibility to minetest if they want to
17:15 celeron55 no? they do it because it's weird to have a random name in an API
17:16 celeron55 so we assume that no good mods will be developed primarily for any fork of minetest?
17:16 sapier that's your opinion I can't follow your logic
17:16 ShadowNinja BlockMen: Builtin should have a usable HUD.  Other wise all games have to provide them and old or abandoned games will stop working.
17:16 celeron55 that minetest users wouldn't want to use?
17:16 Anchakor they might want to get backports from minetest (security fixes for example) which would random renaming & code style changes make PITA
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17:16 celeron55 Anchakor: oh god, i'm glad someone understands
17:16 sapier basicaly renaming causes all mods out there to use a deprecated api. Any reasonable developer tries to replace deprecated api and therefore you cause a lot of work
17:17 celeron55 it won't be changed ever again; you're going to cause a log more work in the long term otherwise
17:17 BlockMen ShadowNinja, we already had this, e.g. tree/grass growing
17:17 celeron55 lot*
17:17 BlockMen it was also moved to games
17:17 ShadowNinja find . -type f | sed -I s/minetest/core/
17:18 ShadowNinja -i*
17:18 sapier I know nothing is as constant as change so don't expect me do believe "it won't be changed ever again"
17:18 celeron55 why would it be?
17:18 BlockMen and since we are talking about the dev (what master is) there is no need to do it that way
17:18 BlockMen furthermore you dont need to read out the flags
17:18 ShadowNinja BlockMen: Games don't need to have trees at all.  All games need a HUD.
17:18 celeron55 and if you think change is constant, why do you try to oppose it anyway
17:19 sapier maybe because we realize core collides with namespace of some other lib we wanna use ... but I'm not concerned about those things I can imagine but because of those I cant
17:19 BlockMen ShadowNinja, so you would call minetest_game without trees and grass not broken?
17:19 BlockMen interesting
17:19 celeron55 additionally, we don't have to deprecate "minetest"
17:19 sapier and this is even a reason you added celeron55
17:20 ShadowNinja BlockMen: minetest_game needs it, but, eg, moontest doesn't.
17:20 sapier of course we cann add engine core base minetest and whatever other things to namespace to but that's way messies do
17:20 BlockMen ShadowNinja, games could also decide not to use default hud?
17:20 BlockMen where is the difference?
17:21 ShadowNinja BlockMen: I don't know what you're getting at.  But see my compatibility point.
17:21 celeron55 sapier: do you realize if at some point we realize that there is a fork that gets a lot of mod development and the mods happen to be compatible with minetest except for the fact that they use a different namespace, it will be too late to switch?
17:22 BlockMen ShadowNinja, we are talking about a dev state. when minetest is released it is bundeled with _game, so there wont be an compatibility issue
17:22 sapier and you believe those mods will suddenly switch to "core"?
17:22 celeron55 suddenly?
17:22 celeron55 they don't exist yet
17:22 celeron55 but if the namespace is switched to "core" now, that's the namespace they will be using then in that fork too
17:22 ShadowNinja BlockMen: There will for every other game out there.
17:23 celeron55 because the fork sees no reason to use another namespace
17:23 celeron55 because the namespace is neutral
17:23 sapier well you did ask for oppinions, I can't follow your reasons that's why I still prefere not adding a second name
17:23 celeron55 this is my point; i am not sure how high the chance of that situation is though
17:23 BlockMen ShadowNinja, same situation was for trees and all games that wanted have trees
17:23 BlockMen you apply double standards
17:23 sapier and it's nothing different then a second name if you insist on not deprecating minetest
17:24 ShadowNinja BlockMen: *shrug* trees could be in builtin if there was a way to easily disable them.
17:24 celeron55 i am fine with not doing this, as long as somebody is able to convince me that there is no reasonable chance for that happening
17:24 sapier so if you can't resist renaming imho the only sane way is deprecating minetest and force all (reasonable) developers to update their mods
17:25 sapier and if you do so drop that silly minetest.env compatibility while doing so
17:25 BlockMen ShadowNinja, you could add a way. like now a "strange" way gets added to hide builtin statbars
17:25 BlockMen it makes more sense it is more easy to change hud if in default
17:25 sapier any non reasonable developers will add the minetest = core alias themselfs anyway
17:26 Calinou <ShadowNinja> BlockMen: Builtin should have a usable HUD.
17:26 Calinou I reported an issue asking for empty heart/bubble textures in engine
17:26 ShadowNinja sapier: This isn't about compatability.
17:26 celeron55 sapier: but that's fine
17:26 sapier no it's not
17:26 sapier it's a lot of work for nothing
17:26 ShadowNinja sapier: It will be fully compatible.
17:26 BlockMen Calinou, huh? i dont get what you want now
17:27 Calinou I'm for “core”, short makes for much better code and saved fingers
17:27 ShadowNinja sapier: I've already done it.  It wasn't all that hard.
17:27 Calinou BlockMen, right now, if you want a background texture for heart/bubble, you need lua HUD (= perceivable lag)
17:27 celeron55 this is largely a political issue though, i have noted that sapier doesn't like figuring out poltiical issues 8)
17:27 sapier of course ShadowNinja keep compatibility trash forever causing any change to get even more and more hard
17:27 BlockMen Calinou, if its in default you can just remove the starbars, done
17:27 BlockMen its the best way to reach your goal
17:27 sapier no it's pure technical, if we did start on green meadow I'd fully agree to core
17:28 sapier but that's not case here
17:28 Calinou BlockMen, but you pereceive lag due to Lua HUD (and it increases server load)
17:28 Calinou it's not a solution
17:28 ShadowNinja We could just use minetest and have the egnine use 'core' internally.  As having one name allowed me to clean up the code a bit.
17:28 BlockMen Calinou, the builtin hud is also lua hud
17:28 BlockMen there is no difference in lag
17:28 BlockMen no, im wrong, in biltin there is more lag
17:28 Calinou in minetest_next it is
17:28 Calinou in minimal or minetest_game, is it?
17:28 sapier if you want to use core celeron55 I insist in a clean exit strategy from old naming
17:29 BlockMen Calinou, plz, look at the pull and read the code
17:29 ShadowNinja Minetest should use one name internally, regardless of what mods use.
17:29 sapier because I don't know how much work I had the last year to support stange behaviour present in minetest and everytime I didn't do this I got complains .. and none of you was there to support the cleanup ... contrary you insisted on keeping that insane scaling by 1280 y lines
17:30 celeron55 do you mean that mods will be forced to use the new namespace after some time?
17:30 BlockMen do the namespace switch with 0.5.x damnit
17:31 sapier yes that's my opinion, call "minetest" deprecated now, warn them in next version and force them to change in follow up version
17:31 sapier for example
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17:31 celeron55 there are a lot of mods that nobody maintains anymore but which work just fine, so i'm not okay with fully breaking compatibility in a long time
17:32 sfan5 hm
17:32 sapier so what? if those mods are valuable to community there will be someone to fix it
17:32 ShadowNinja I wouldn't completely drop support until there was another change that broke compatability because ^.
17:32 ShadowNinja A warning could be done though.
17:32 sapier dropping support is the only way to get rid of broken code
17:33 celeron55 but it should be dropped after that long time
17:33 sfan5 I know this is some work, but what if we have a 'minetest' namespace that won't get any new functions/things added & a 'core' namespace which does what the 'minetest' namespace did previously
17:33 ShadowNinja A warning will slow down access to minetest.* though.
17:33 celeron55 sfan5: nope
17:33 BlockMen sfan5, even more messy
17:33 sfan5 uh, ok
17:34 sapier we wont be able to maintain that much different ways of doing things, and it's becoming more and more messy to do so
17:35 celeron55 i think i'm going to ask an opinion from... ehm... "the fork"
17:35 celeron55 it won't be representative of any other future fork though so i'm not sure what use is this of
17:35 sapier well you can call freeminer freeminer
17:37 sapier I'm not responsible for scriptapi so it's not my decision but what I know is it's gonna be quite some work to get mobf work again after you change it
17:37 celeron55 anyway, i am basing this thinking on the facts that minetest will likely be around for years to come, and in those years probably many forks will come that people use for various reasons, and it is likely that at least one of those forks would like to do these two things at the same time: 1) not use the "minetest" namespace, 2) maintain compatibility with minetest
17:37 Calinou ShadowNinja, post an informal warning on forums
17:37 celeron55 and if minetest dies, a fork will be forked
17:37 sapier and what's wrong with name minetest? there's a 3d engine out there called sauerbraten
17:38 celeron55 dunno, ask those supposed forkers after 3 years
17:38 celeron55 unfortunately i don't have a time machine 8)
17:38 Calinou the engine is Cube 2, the game is Sauerbraten
17:38 sfan5 ^
17:39 sapier Calinou: the other way round
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17:40 sapier hmm ok they recently switched names
17:40 sapier Do what you can't stop doing celeron55 I'm not amused about having to fix all my mods
17:40 Calinou ...in 2009
17:40 Calinou replace minetest. to core. using your text editor?
17:40 celeron55 sapier: i haven't decided yet
17:40 Calinou like I replaced minetest.env: with minetest. it worked OOTB
17:41 * BlockMen still prefers engine
17:41 celeron55 sapier: i will try to decide soon
17:41 sapier Calinou: a simple text replace did never work and it didn't work for minetest.env by that time too
17:41 Calinou 2 letters shorter matters a lot over time :P
17:41 Calinou sapier, worked for me in throwing, carts, maptools
17:41 BlockMen engine<minetest :P
17:41 BlockMen thats enough
17:42 sapier if you're that short on memory you probably should update your drive
17:42 sapier celeron55: well to me it seems to be decided you just want to be able to tell "everyone agreed" later ;-)
17:42 celeron55 no i don't
17:43 Calinou BlockMen, we shouldn't settle for less
17:43 Calinou core is 4 chars, minetest is 8
17:44 celeron55 i'm trying to dig up good reasonings from people but people tend to stick to repeating some thing again and again so it isn't very helpful
17:44 sapier hmm guess I'm gonna add a loopup file in case of name change so all minetest stuff is done in a single file an I don't have to lookup those locations for next years renaming
17:44 BlockMen Calinou, and engine is 6 chars..
17:44 BlockMen the golden middle
17:44 sapier well celeron55 why should ppl do different to you do ;)
17:45 sapier why don't we rename to e? .. I'd suggest c but abc and  ijk are often used for index values
17:46 sfan5 ><sapier> why don't we rename to e?
17:46 sfan5 I was about to propose the same
17:46 celeron55 because it's too short and people like to use it for eg. a variable containing an entity
17:46 sapier because it's even shorter then core ... 75% to be precise ... and e is as non saying as core
17:46 sapier ok what about h
17:47 sapier to close to k ...
17:47 sfan5 or even better: what about modifying Lua so ".place_node(pos, {name='default:stone'})" accesses the api? </mostly joke>
17:47 sfan5 that would be 0 chars
17:48 BlockMen sfan, place_node has to be shorten too
17:48 BlockMen so "._pn()
17:48 sapier let's stop this discussion noone is giving new reasons
17:48 sfan5 soon: .p_n(p, {n='d:s', p1=4})
17:48 rubenwardy ^ excellent
17:48 * BlockMen prefers that too
17:48 rubenwardy Code golf for the win!
17:49 rubenwardy That is an idea...
17:49 sapier we've got some other controversial things to discuss, e.g. transmission of client os to server
17:49 sapier any opinions to this?
17:49 BlockMen or builtin vs default (HUD)
17:49 sfan5 I was about to ask celeron55 for his opionion on that(sending client os to server)
17:49 ShadowNinja sapier: I approve that.
17:50 ShadowNinja +of
17:50 sapier I'm against it ... even more then I'm against renaming
17:50 sapier to be honest doing this would make me even think about stopping to support minetest
17:50 sapier that much against am I against doing things like that :-)
17:51 celeron55 i think it's a stupid idea unless someone tells a valid reason other than spying people
17:51 sapier I don't want minetest to tell anything about my machine it is not required to tell
17:52 Anchakor sapier: you can use E instead of e as lua is case sensitive
17:52 celeron55 (i also think that if minetest really sticks to this kind of privacy standard, maybe we should advertise it a bit more)
17:52 celeron55 (it's a feature, really)
17:53 sapier Is it become that normal for applications to spy on user this has become a thing worth advertising?
17:53 ShadowNinja Yes.
17:53 Anchakor it's usually opt-in or opt-out
17:53 sapier seems I'm getting old
17:54 sfan5 opt-in makes no sense because nobody will enable it
17:54 Calinou <celeron55> (i also think that if minetest really sticks to this kind of privacy standard, maybe we should advertise it a bit more)
17:54 Calinou <celeron55> (it's a feature, really)
17:54 Calinou +1
17:54 sapier opt out is for ppl doing non legit things only
17:54 Calinou sfan5, a game telling an user's OS makes no sense
17:54 Anchakor well I enabled the firefox spying feature because I want them to know how many addons I use that fix the unsatisfactory default firefox experience :)
17:54 sfan5 sapier: we should add opt-out for telling the server the minetest version too
17:55 sapier telling users os is only for spys nothing else
17:55 sfan5 did you even read the discussion?
17:55 ShadowNinja Calinou: Use something like c55+.+ (-.) instead of pasting.
17:55 Calinou the bot recognizes it?
17:55 sfan5 which bot?
17:55 ShadowNinja Calinou: Yes.
17:55 sapier not today sfan5, but till yesterday I haven't read a single non spy related legit reason
17:56 ShadowNinja !plugin help Karma
17:56 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: That plugin is loaded, but has no plugin help.
17:56 sfan5 sapier: you could serve e.g. a low-res texture pack to clients running on Linux/arm (probably android)
17:56 ShadowNinja :-(
17:56 Anchakor sapier: what HTTP user-agent header do you use in your browsers?
17:56 celeron55 sfan5: by adding to the protocol the information that the client wants a low-res texture pack
17:56 celeron55 not the information that the client is running on ARM
17:56 sapier well that's great sfan5 so my hell of a machine 8core 4gb tablet will get same texture pack as my old 1core 500mhz arm phone
17:56 Calinou it makes no sense: it's up to the client to limit pack size
17:57 Calinou (would be nice to have max_texture_size option, indeed)
17:57 sapier http requests are not linked to a username Anchakor
17:57 Calinou most sensible servers don't change the default texture pack; if they do, they often stick to 16× or 32×
17:57 Calinou nothing to be scared of
17:57 sfan5 sapier: send_client_sysinfo = false
17:57 sapier unless ppl enter it but there's not a way a minetest user can't enter a username
17:58 Anchakor sapier: they are linked to an IP
17:58 sapier still you'll have to ask any german user to ask for permission to save that data
17:58 sfan5 no you don't
17:58 Anchakor and a running TCP connection
17:58 sapier there's no clear legal situations about ip's in germany but for usernames there is no doubt it's personal data
17:58 sfan5 >but for usernames there is no doubt it's personal data
17:58 sfan5 [citation needed]
17:59 Anchakor ^
17:59 sapier and the ip is required in order to establisch communication while os type isn't
17:59 sapier -c
17:59 ShadowNinja sapier: If so we, and every website with registration, has been violating german law for a long time.
17:59 sapier sfan5: do you really question if a name identifying a person is personal data?
18:00 sfan5 name != nickname
18:00 sapier any website requireing registration shows you some terms of service on join
18:00 sfan5 if you use your real name as nickname it's not the websites fault
18:00 ShadowNinja Spaces aren't even valid in player names.
18:00 sfan5 it can't even detect that
18:00 celeron55 so is there really no better reasons for your opinions than whether it's legal or not?
18:00 celeron55 that's rather extreme
18:01 sapier celeron55: so you'd add a feature not being legal for other reasons?
18:01 Anchakor I don't think knowledge of OS is a big deal, it is useful for statistics
18:01 ShadowNinja sapier: Then Minetest is illegal in germany.  I don't plan to cater to their laws.
18:01 celeron55 sapier: no
18:01 ShadowNinja Anchakor: Exactly.
18:01 sapier if you store data e.g. server logs might be illegal in germany yes
18:02 sfan5 >a feature not being legal
18:02 sfan5 [citation needed]
18:02 ShadowNinja I'd like this to know, eg, how many of my users use Android.
18:02 sfan5 ^ +1
18:02 sapier spy
18:02 Calinou do you really need it? does your life depend on it?
18:02 Calinou stop having the “mesuriteX
18:02 celeron55 i believe privacy laws germany are quite similar to that of finland; a nickname doesn't really count but of course it's kind of grey area because someone could use an official name
18:03 celeron55 +in
18:03 sapier sfan5 §3a BSDG
18:03 celeron55 but then again, there is no requirement of supplying real information
18:03 celeron55 i think that mostly makes the difference
18:04 sapier celeron55: personal data is not linked to presence of real name
18:05 sfan5 sapier: so minetest is potentially illegal in germany because the user *might* use his real name as username?
18:05 sapier of course we're in a grey are, but if you've got nickname os, time, ip and whatever chances this data is enough to really identify a person grow drasticaly with any additional dataset
18:05 celeron55 of course if it's linked to an IP, that is almost pin-pointable to a certain person
18:05 celeron55 so yeah
18:06 sfan5 I don't think time & IP counts as "Einzelangaben über persönliche oder sachliche Verhältnisse einer bestimmten oder bestimmbaren natürlichen Person"
18:06 sfan5 ( http://dejure.org/gesetze/BDSG/3.html point 1 )
18:06 sapier how much do you think is necessary to identify a person?
18:07 sfan5 an IP does not identify a person
18:07 sapier may I try to find out who you are sfan5? I right now I don't have more information than any server owner has, maybe even less
18:08 Anchakor then I think to be sure you should tell on the loading screen that the game is sending possibly person identifying data to the servers, because of Germany
18:08 Anchakor and just send OS info anyway
18:08 sfan5 sapier: no, that won't count anyway
18:08 sapier well once I have the ipv6 address of your mobile phone that's almost as good as having your tax number in germany
18:08 sfan5 you could take the shortcut of using github etc.
18:09 sfan5 AldiTalk does not provide IPv6
18:09 rubenwardy !title https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=9&amp;t=9259
18:09 sapier your luck ... but it's just a matter of time
18:09 sfan5 I could configure my phone to not use IPv6
18:09 sfan5 also my phone internet goes through an APN, you would only see the IP of the APN
18:09 sapier you wont get anything else except ipv6 by some not to far distant future
18:10 sapier of course you can not use a mobile phone at all
18:10 celeron55 so, maybe we should talk about something useful instead of the law: what information are server owners looking for, then?
18:10 sfan5 -.- that is not what I wanted to say
18:10 celeron55 i'd guess not exact OS version
18:10 sapier that's the final argument "you can avoid it"
18:10 sfan5 well
18:10 celeron55 if it's so important, maybe minetest could send whether it think it's running on a tablet or not, if that's so valuable
18:11 celeron55 thinks*
18:11 sfan5 the linux kernel version is probably not interesting except the major and minor version
18:11 Anchakor they are looking for a/s/l obviously ;)
18:11 sfan5 but i'd like to know how many people still use XP
18:11 sapier there's no more then major and minor version of linux kernel
18:11 celeron55 yeah so and then tax number, street address and paypal password
18:11 celeron55 what else will you please?
18:11 sapier patch levels are no longer part of official kernel version
18:11 sfan5 googlemail password please :)
18:12 sfan5 >3.13.0-24-generic
18:12 sfan5 I mean the 3.13 part
18:12 sapier .0 is patchlevel
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18:14 sapier If we want to add this feature, ask user on first start if he wants to submit this data and don't provide detailed information, e.g. stick to winxp,vista,win7,win8, linux 2,3,
18:14 celeron55 i'm not advocating this, but what would people think if minetest explicitly asked the user whether he wants to send extra information to the server (with the warning that it might be personally identifiable but might help the server owner improve their service) at startup when a configuration file wasn't yet found?
18:14 sfan5 hm
18:15 celeron55 s/the server/to servers/
18:15 sapier well so doing it silently is better celeron55?
18:15 celeron55 i'm advocating not sending anything
18:15 BlockMen how would knowing how many xp users there are help the server owner to improve service?
18:16 celeron55 but i don't really know how much people could improve the experience of others by knowing some of that information so i can suggest stuff without sticking to it
18:16 sfan5 how about "Do you want to allow Minetest to send information about your system to the servers it connects to? The informations sent looks like this for you: Linux/3.13.0-24-generic x86_64"
18:16 sapier Imho if we don't have courage to tell users about it we shouldn't do it at all
18:17 Anchakor it could help convince some server owners that "welp, nobody plays on linux anyway, so lets ignore this bug" isn't really true
18:17 sapier I'd agree to do it that way too sfan5, as long as we tell user what is sent
18:17 sfan5 sapier: the sysinfo for windows system (how it is now) only tell the server owner winxp, vista, win7 (win8 is put into win7 category) and the architecture
18:17 sfan5 +s
18:17 celeron55 regular gamers are OK with this amount of spying: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/
18:18 sapier celeron55: do they have a joice?
18:18 sapier choice?
18:18 celeron55 apparently "Participation in the survey is optional, and anonymous"
18:18 celeron55 i don't know how they ask it though
18:19 sfan5 they ask you nicely and allow you to look at whats send
18:19 celeron55 coould be opt out, or a yes/no pop-up dialog every month or something
18:19 sfan5 (can confirm because I use steam)
18:19 sapier really? I don't use steam for exactly that reason I don't wanna install a trojan on my system
18:19 celeron55 so it's a yes/no dialog
18:19 sfan5 I don't remember exactly, but yes, probably
18:19 celeron55 also: http://steamcharts.com/
18:20 celeron55 those aren't disableable i think
18:20 celeron55 (because it's part of the DRM)
18:20 sapier I don't think steam is a good example do we wanna be evil just because someone else is already evil?
18:21 ShadowNinja Lua 5.2 support: http://ix.io/c9r/diff
18:21 sfan5 ShadowNinja: add depracation warnings to unpack & package.loaders
18:21 BlockMen Anchakor, server owner should update minetest recently so such behavior wouldt really be an issue (if i understood you correct)
18:21 celeron55 sapier: i don't think we want to be evil, or at least i don't
18:21 sfan5 and all the other stuff
18:22 ShadowNinja I'll have to add compatability with LuaJit's 5.1 C API.
18:22 * sfan5 did not intend "evil stuff" when making that pull request
18:23 celeron55 i definitely won't use a minetest client that sends unnecessary information to servers
18:23 sapier it's not about what you intended sfan5, I believe you don't want to be but the mechanisms you add are more likely used for evil reasons then for good ones
18:23 sfan5 if evil = trying to get malware on the clients computer
18:23 sapier I wont use that client either
18:23 sfan5 we've dicussed that before
18:24 sfan5 if someone is still using XP opening a browser is way riskier than opening minetest
18:25 sapier dancing on highway is riskier too ... but is as related to this as using xp
18:25 sfan5 2nd 'opening' -> playing && ... + on servers
18:25 celeron55 what if server owners would just add a pop-up formspec if they want to know what their players use
18:25 celeron55 "what os are you using" and a few buttons
18:26 celeron55 not a big deal and very explicit
18:26 sfan5 what if players don't know which os they are using?
18:26 celeron55 add a button for it and assume android
18:26 sfan5 I think that is a litte too annoying
18:27 celeron55 there should be a cost in spying
18:27 sfan5 imagine quickly joining a few servers and each one asks you what OS you are using first
18:27 sfan5 how is that spying?
18:28 sfan5 Pretty much every company is a spy by that definition
18:28 Anchakor on a side note I really dislike the annoying "we are using cookies" (and there is nothing you can do) website notifications
18:29 celeron55 yes, they are absolutely useless
18:29 celeron55 and they only do harm to those who switch cookies off (because then they see the message always)
18:29 celeron55 it's stupid
18:30 BlockMen sfan5, i still dont get what do you want to do with the information?
18:30 BlockMen *except statistics
18:31 sapier sfan5 options "windows, linux, android, apple, other"
18:31 sapier sfan5: why? you don't have to ask user everytime, just e.g. once a month
18:31 sapier ohh add another option "don't wanna tell you"
18:31 sapier If you wanna know what os your players use play with open cards
18:31 sapier it's up to you when to ask a player
18:31 sapier you don't have to ask him on first login
18:31 sapier e.g. you could ask on 10th too
18:31 sapier maybe that data is even better as you'd only get data from regular players
18:31 sapier #1265 I'd like to merge that fix, any opinions to it?
18:31 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1265 -- Fix heart + bubble bar size on different texture packs by sapier
18:32 BlockMen https://github.com/minetest/minete​st/pull/1265#issuecomment-42461347 sapier
18:32 sfan5 sapier: what about quickly joining 10 servers you've never been to before?
18:32 sapier I know your opinion BlockMen but I don't agree to it ;)
18:33 sapier yes sfan5 what's about it?  I don't get the question by now?
18:33 BlockMen so explain me why we should run eventhandler two times (when there is a changed hud), sapier
18:33 sfan5 sapier: you would get asked 10 times
18:33 BlockMen and why we need the useless get_flags_ function?
18:34 sapier we need it to be compatible to current mods anyway
18:34 BlockMen no? have no get_flags currently?
18:35 sapier but you need it to be able to evaluate the values set by set_flags
18:35 sapier which is available right now
18:35 BlockMen if there is no c++ statbar anymore you cant show or hide it either
18:35 sapier you can
18:36 sapier the current code does behave exactly as before (related to this feature)
18:36 BlockMen so its better to keep the bad way instead to improve things?
18:36 sapier we can mark it to be deprecated and drop in next version but for time beeing we need to be compatible
18:37 sapier n-1 compatibility is a must
18:37 BlockMen well, fine, keep the flags
18:37 BlockMen but there is still a pro when moving it to default
18:37 sapier so if there's an agreement to drop support for disabling statbar by set_hud_flags I'm gonna mark it deprecated and remove it as soon as next version is released
18:38 BlockMen sapier, no. flags are also used for crosshair, hudbar, etc
18:38 sapier well in mid term those should be replaced by luahud too
18:38 BlockMen wut? no way
18:39 sapier why not? luahud already supports those features
18:39 BlockMen useless traffic
18:39 BlockMen there is no need to move everything to lua
18:39 sapier do you really want to complain about 100 bytes? :-)
18:40 BlockMen i think to prevent lags the border for the current wielded item is send kinda often
18:40 sapier well I don't intend to do anything there the next time so we don't need to discuss this now
18:40 sapier well wielded item is a bad example as this is the one not supported by luahud
18:41 BlockMen ok, then you just need to convince me why we need to event handlers and we are done
18:41 sapier but crosshair and hotbar could be
18:41 BlockMen *s/to/two
18:41 sapier two?
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18:41 sapier whe need the changed to update if those statbars are show
18:42 BlockMen if you have an costum lua hud you add another handler
18:42 sapier and we need health and breath to not have to lookup both everytime
18:42 BlockMen but since you have just the flags you have still the other handler
18:42 sapier custom lua hud?
18:42 sapier tell me more about it
18:42 BlockMen a mod that modifies the statbars?
18:43 sapier mods need something to cause them to do something
18:43 BlockMen if it is in default you can just override the ids and use the already running handler
18:43 sapier isn't that handler called on each step?
18:43 celeron55 sapier: you need to document the protocol change in clientserver.h
18:43 celeron55 looks like world_pos is missing from there too
18:43 sapier ok I'm gonna add this
18:44 celeron55 i don't have time for studying this properly but the basic idea seems fine to me
18:44 celeron55 i hope that it doesn't contain problems 8)
18:45 sapier BlockMen: I'm looking for this callback can you tell me where to find it?
18:45 sapier well celeron55 it's been reason for major conflicts I assume if it did have any reasonable bugs I'd already been punched to fix them
18:45 BlockMen sapier, hm?
18:46 sapier that handler in default I assumed to be called on_step?
18:47 sapier I'd like to verify my assumption
18:47 BlockMen there is nothing called on_step. it is using the player events aswell
18:47 sapier ok tell me where to find it if I don't need to a the new callback mechanisn I'm gonna remove it gladly
18:48 BlockMen sapier, i would be fine with it if you make the id's overwriteable
18:48 BlockMen then this issue woulndt occur
18:48 sapier I don't know what you're talking about now if you don't tell me where to look at
18:49 BlockMen sapier, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1265/​files#diff-a5826972d46496671f7266e00d6e31ecR24
18:49 BlockMen ^remove the local and get a useable name
18:49 BlockMen s/get/find
18:50 sapier well I did this this exactly to not risk it to be messed up
18:50 BlockMen what should be messed up? mods can hide statbars already
18:50 BlockMen so what could the make "bad" with the ids?
18:50 BlockMen *they
18:51 sapier yes but if this is available they can place anything there and other mods can't rely on it
18:51 BlockMen same with flags?
18:51 BlockMen other mods cant know what a mod does with the flags
18:51 sapier and how is our own handling supposed to handle those things if player replaxces e.g. a statbar by a image?
18:52 sapier ok not player but another mod
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18:53 sapier our callbacks are registred and we rely on those Id's to be what they are supposed to be
18:53 BlockMen it cant. but you cant prevent mods misbehave
18:53 BlockMen mods can always do "bad things"
18:53 sapier I don't see the benefit by now
18:53 BlockMen the can destroy your whole world
18:54 BlockMen sapier, that you dont need to add another handler that does excatly the same
18:54 BlockMen while the builtin still runs and does in fact nothing
18:54 BlockMen thats just stupid
18:54 sapier no it doesn't run if flags disable it
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18:55 BlockMen ofc it does. it just not updates the bar
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19:36 ShadowNinja Uhh... I think `git submodule` just deleted all or my branches and staged changes.
19:36 ShadowNinja of*
19:36 ShadowNinja And my remotes.
19:37 ShadowNinja *whew* no, it didn't.
19:40 sapier can someone please test #1265 again?
19:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1265 -- Fix heart + bubble bar size on different texture packs by sapier
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19:58 ShadowNinja Adds Lua 5.2 support: http://ix.io/c9F/diff  It's based on my builtin-organization branch.
20:04 sapier ShadowNinja: basically I'm positive about it, do we have any issues with builtin lua versions of distributions?
20:04 VanessaE whoa whoa whoa...  I thought there was a HUGE insistence on avoiding even touching 5.1 (let alone 5.2)?
20:04 VanessaE or whatever the version was outside of what we're using now
20:05 kaeza we use 5.1 ...
20:05 VanessaE ok then 5.2
20:05 VanessaE you get my point :P
20:05 VanessaE when did that change?
20:05 sapier well if there is a problem with lua versions of distributions we're blocked
20:05 VanessaE (that 5.2 was to be considered acceptable)
20:05 sapier and what about luajit?
20:06 sapier is it 5.1 or 5.2?
20:06 ShadowNinja I talked about it before, and I think some prople didn't like the new goto feature.  But it's got other advantages.
20:06 VanessaE LuaJIT is just-north-of-5.1-but-not-quite-5.2 I guess
20:06 ShadowNinja sapier: It's C API is 5.1-like.  But it supports many Lua 5.2 features.
20:06 ShadowNinja ^
20:07 sapier I still don't like the goto feature but as long as we keep it out of minetest core as well as minetest_game
20:07 ShadowNinja Just about the only major thing it's missing from 5.2 is _ENV.
20:07 sapier I'm against calling goto a reason to add it
20:07 sapier it's more a reason NOT to add it ... but it's obviously only one new thing in lua
20:07 sapier 5.2
20:07 ShadowNinja sapier: goto isn't my reason.  It has bit32 and a dozen other features.
20:08 VanessaE sapier: well it's not like you HAVE to use every feature it has.
20:08 kaeza plus 5.3 is almost out, so ...
20:08 sapier that's what I meant with " ...as long as we keep it out of..."
20:08 VanessaE right.
20:08 sapier still ... what about distribution compatibility
20:09 VanessaE (why couldn't I initially remember the version number?  *feels stupid*)
20:09 ShadowNinja LuaJIT has one or two Lua 5.2 features too.
20:09 sapier lua 5.2 is of no use if luajit or major distributions are in conflict to it's features
20:09 ShadowNinja 5.3*
20:09 VanessaE sapier: solve that the way it always was - bundle it?
20:09 ShadowNinja sapier: LuaJIT supports most of Lua 5.2's features.
20:10 sapier then we need to add a check for lua 5.1 and disallow it's system usage
20:10 VanessaE right.  Isn't there some way to "fall back" to interpreted Lua for when JIT misses a feature?
20:10 sapier most of?
20:10 ShadowNinja VanessaE: Nope.
20:10 sapier I tend to "most of" isn't enough but I'd prefere to know exactly what is missing
20:10 kaeza does MT use any strictly-5.1 stuff?
20:11 kaeza i.e. anything not available in 5.2?
20:11 sapier it's not about mt kaeza can you tell for sure no mod uses 5.1 stuff?
20:11 VanessaE ShadowNinja: christ in a cartoon, 23000 lines for that patch???????
20:11 ShadowNinja LuaJIT has features that Lua doesn't have and vice versa.  We'll just have to use the subset that both support, or use "if jit then" or the like around interpreter-specific code.
20:12 ShadowNinja VanessaE: About 99% is Lua, since we include the whole thing.
20:12 kaeza sapier, only "advanced" thing I've seen used by mods is setmetatable()
20:12 VanessaE good point
20:12 sapier for what I know luajit does support full set of lua5.1 functions am I wrong about this?
20:12 sapier can you tell FOR SURE kaeza?
20:12 ShadowNinja sapier: No, LuaJIT fully supports 5.1.
20:12 VanessaE ShadowNinja: it just makes it look like you practically had to rewrite the whole engine to do it is all
20:13 sapier ok ShadowNinja then we need to find out what would be missing in luajit for 5.2
20:13 kaeza sapier, how many big, complex mods are out there? maybe technic, MOBF, and IRC
20:13 ShadowNinja sapier: I went over the official incompatabilities list and added patches to builtin/compat/52compat.lua or src/script/common/c_internal.(cpp/h)
20:13 VanessaE sapier: the only thing LuaJIT doesn't support in 5.1 is anything where there's simply a temporary bug in its implementation like with anything else.  otherwise it just works out of the box.
20:13 sapier if no mod can use 5.2 features because of luajit lacks those features I don't see any use in updating lua
20:14 sapier bugs don't count as "not support"
20:14 ShadowNinja This might break MT_IRC beacuse it uses a shared library.
20:15 VanessaE sapier: unless they persist in a "won't fix" state for months and months :P   but honestly I think it would be better to stick with 5.1 and import whatever 5.1-compatible libraries and such that we feel modders (or engine devs) would benefit from
20:15 kaeza I believe luasocket/LuaIRC already support 5.2
20:15 sapier without luajit support this might be of almost no use :-(
20:15 ShadowNinja sapier: LuaJIT doesn't fully support 5.2, but it mostly supports it.
20:15 kaeza so only mt_irc core would need to support it, if there's anything to change (require() maybe)
20:15 sapier you can't use the new functions if they break a mod on luajit and if you can't use it I don't know what they're good for
20:16 ShadowNinja kaeza: Yes, I know that they do.  I use them for my Lua IRC bot.
20:16 sapier according to luajit webpage luajit is 5.1 api + BitOp + FFI (whatever ffi is)
20:16 ShadowNinja kaeza: The only thing to change would be to compile a Lua 5.2 SO and use it when needed.  But maybe we should use a system lib.
20:17 ShadowNinja sapier: http://luajit.org/extensions.html "Extensions from Lua 5.2."
20:17 sapier "the only thing ... to compile" ... well guys ... I think a lot of users may not believe this to be a easy task ;)
20:18 ShadowNinja sapier: MT_IRC is probably the most advanced Minetest mod, feature-use wise.
20:18 kaeza also, any reason not to use a Lua DLL on Windows?
20:18 ShadowNinja (Due to it's compiled library requirement)
20:19 kaeza I believe this would also fix the mt_irc crashes on Win
20:19 sapier "Other features are only enabled, if LuaJIT is built with -DLUAJIT_ENABLE_LUA52COMPAT:" so we need a special version of luajit?
20:19 ShadowNinja kaeza: No?
20:19 kaeza ShadowNinja, ?
20:19 ShadowNinja sapier: You should probably assume that those features aren't available.
20:20 ShadowNinja kaeza: Doesn't it do that already?
20:20 sapier well there are almost the most interesting things in there
20:21 sapier actually ... there's only one feature I'd like to have ... break ;-) but that'd not be available
20:21 kaeza ^ and continue
20:22 kaeza wait... break is available...
20:22 sapier no only with compat switch enabled
20:24 sapier I'm generally positive about 5.2 but I think it's to early to do that switch by now. I think best time would be once debian enables that compat define
20:24 ShadowNinja sapier: Break is available, you can just use it anywhere in Lua 5.2.
20:24 sapier no I can't use it
20:24 sapier luajit doesn't enable it without additional compat define
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20:25 ShadowNinja kaeza: Continue isn't supported, but continue-like-goto can be done.
20:25 sapier see your link
20:25 ShadowNinja sapier: Re-read it.
20:25 sapier Other features are only enabled, if LuaJIT is built with -DLUAJIT_ENABLE_LUA52COMPAT:
20:25 sapier goto is a keyword and not a valid variable name anymore.
20:25 sapier break can be placed anywhere. Empty statements (;;) are allowed.
20:25 SoniEx2 does minetest change the print function?
20:26 sapier break isn't available on luajit
20:26 ShadowNinja "break CAN BE PLACED ANYWHERE."  It's still AVAILABLE with or without that setting.
20:26 ShadowNinja sapier: break is a basic Lua 5.1 feature.
20:27 ShadowNinja SoniEx2: Yes, it redirects it to minetest.debug.
20:27 SoniEx2 ShadowNinja, do you tostring?
20:27 sapier you tell me break is available in lua 5.1? argh
20:27 SoniEx2 I mean this is what your print function should look like: print = function(s,...) local t={n=select('#',...},...} io.stdout:write(tostring(s)) for i=1,t.n do io.stdout:write("\t"..tostring(t[i])) end io.stdout:write("\n") end
20:28 SoniEx2 (just replace io.stdout and make a local copy of select)
20:28 kaeza SoniEx2, https://github.com/minetest/minetest​/blob/master/builtin/builtin.lua#L9
20:28 ShadowNinja SoniEx2: Yep. https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/m​aster/src/script/lua_api/l_util.cpp#L32-L58
20:28 kaeza wee.. wrong link
20:29 sapier seems to ... ok so break isn't a reason ... well actually that's not a positive reason for 5.2 as then I don't have any feature in 5.2 I'd need ;-)
20:29 SoniEx2 ugh that additional branching...
20:29 SoniEx2 (line 50)
20:30 ShadowNinja SoniEx2: How else would you do it?
20:30 sapier ShadowNinja: I'd wait with 5.2 I don't see a pressing need for it atm
20:30 SoniEx2 ShadowNinja, look at my Lua code, skip the first part (io.stdout:write(tostring(s))) if s is nil
20:31 ShadowNinja sapier: Do you see a reason not to add it?  Because I don't want to rebase this in three months.
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20:31 ShadowNinja SoniEx2: I see.  Patches welcome.  ;-)
20:32 SoniEx2 ShadowNinja, then you don't have to compare every loop iteration and don't branch on the first thingy...
20:32 ShadowNinja It isn't a very big optimization, and it will probably lead to code duplication for the tostring call.
20:32 Mimilus plop
20:32 sapier Usually switching to a new api version causes various compatibility issues you don't see right from beginning, comparing this to lack of real need for new features makes me suggest not to merge it
20:32 Mimilus local one = 1 , local two = 0, if .... then two = one doesn't work ??? but why
20:33 ShadowNinja Even a simple branch predictor should do well with that branch.
20:33 SoniEx2 ShadowNinja, then do it in Lua?
20:33 sapier btw we still don't merge things because of not having a reason against it but because of HAVING A GOOD REASON to merge it
20:34 ShadowNinja SoniEx2: As I said, patches welcome. ;-)
20:34 sapier talking about merge I'm merging #1265 in a few minutes
20:34 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1265 -- Fix heart + bubble bar size on different texture packs by sapier
20:35 sapier Mimilus: can you paste your full code to something like pastebin?
20:35 Mimilus how must i do to assign the value of a local varible to another variable
20:36 sapier post your code I can't help you on showing a incomplete sniplet
20:37 sapier most likely you did something wrong about variable scopes but I'm just guessing without further knowledge about your code
20:37 ShadowNinja celeron55: Thoughts on a Lua 5.2 upgrade?
20:37 Mimilus sapier, http://pastebin.com/MnVZ8x4E
20:37 SoniEx2 ShadowNinja, do you have a bootloader or something?
20:38 celeron55 ShadowNinja: what's the benefit?
20:38 ShadowNinja SoniEx2: Yes...
20:38 celeron55 ShadowNinja: luajit is mostly lua 5.1
20:38 celeron55 so you can't use lua 5.2 features anyway
20:38 sapier and what happens Mimilus?
20:38 ShadowNinja celeron55: http://luajit.org/extensions.html "Extensions from Lua 5.2"  These features can be used, +bit32.
20:39 SoniEx2 ShadowNinja, where?
20:39 Mimilus it doesn't work :)
20:39 ShadowNinja SoniEx2: /boot/
20:39 ShadowNinja SoniEx2: How is this relevant?
20:39 sapier that's a little bit to simplified Mimilus ;-)
20:40 sapier what do you expect it to do?
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20:40 SoniEx2 ShadowNinja, uhh I mean a Lua script to setup things...
20:40 sapier btw your notation of writing then in front of instruction is quite stange
20:41 Mimilus sapier, the node doesn't have texture for front behind right left faces
20:41 ShadowNinja SoniEx2: echo $LUA_INIT -> ""
20:41 celeron55 ShadowNinja: so lua 5.2 enables those things that luajit says "can break existing code if unconditionally enabled" when compared to 5.1
20:41 celeron55 have you figured out if those are a problem for existing mods?
20:42 sapier what do those prints show?
20:42 ShadowNinja celeron55: No, it allows modders to use those features without worrying about Lua users not having those features available.
20:42 Mimilus they have to show the value of the local variable
20:42 Mimilus sapier, it was just for me
20:43 ShadowNinja celeron55: I've patched incompatabilities in builtin/common/51compat.lua.
20:43 celeron55 well that probably helps
20:43 ShadowNinja http://ix.io/c9S/lua
20:43 Mimilus sapier, the print was just for anderstand
20:44 celeron55 ShadowNinja: i demand serious testing for it before it's merged
20:44 sapier still celeron55 if we add it we have to define our lua api level is luajit not lua 5.2
20:44 ShadowNinja -unpack infinite recursion.  ;-)
20:44 celeron55 sapier: i am aware of that, that's why i'm really questioning this
20:44 celeron55 it makes things messy
20:44 celeron55 currently it's simple; it's just simply lua 5.1
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20:45 khonkhortisan I'm familiar with the difference
20:45 ShadowNinja celeron55: I tested it with Lua and LUAJIT (with LUA52COMPAT).
20:45 celeron55 ShadowNinja: which mods?
20:45 Mimilus sapier, what do you want to mean by strange for my notation, how will i have to do ?
20:46 celeron55 khonkhortisan: you mean 5.1 vs. 5.2 vs. luajit?
20:47 celeron55 anyway, i'm not really a fan of this and i think getting comments from more actual modders would help
20:48 khonkhortisan I compiled an old version of quake and had to update a few lines for my current lua, then downgrade some for luajit because it didn't do some 5.2 things
20:48 celeron55 if people want the 5.2 features that luajit can provide, it might make sense
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20:48 celeron55 also how do we plan to make sure that people who develop on 5.2 don't make things that don't run on luajit and the other way around?
20:49 celeron55 should we disable the things that are only on the other one?
20:49 celeron55 probably yes
20:50 ShadowNinja celeron55: Only basic mods.
20:50 celeron55 whether minetest uses an official dialect of lua doesn't make a huge difference because the code isn't really reusable outside of it anyway, but the dialect must be clearly specified
20:51 sapier I'm pushing 1265 now
20:53 celeron55 (it's sad that i can't even use the word "lua version"... luajit is kind of messed up)
21:09 VanessaE ShadowNinja, celeron55:  test it with dreambuilder.  That seems stable under 5.1
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21:10 VanessaE celeron55: I would agree with that - only allow the subset of things that both 5.2 and LuaJIT(+bit32+whatever else) can do
21:11 ShadowNinja VanessaE: You can try it.  :-)  I'll rebase it soon.
21:15 sapier does anyone have a 3d screen to check the top/bottom or side by side 3d modes?
21:17 VanessaE not I, sorry.
21:18 sapier hmm maybe I can use bino to show a captured screencast sidebyside video in interlaced mode  ... sounds strange but could work
21:18 ShadowNinja I'd like to get #1258 merged soon as it's in constant need of rebasing.
21:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1258 -- Organize builtin into subdirectories and use "core" namespace by ShadowNinja
21:19 sapier there's still no official decision about core or not core shadow
21:20 VanessaE [05-07 12:42] <celeron55> does someone oppose it if the "minetest" and "engine" namespaces in Lua are officially renamed to "core"? the reason for doing this is to not make forks of minetest need to support the name of every other fork, and the reason why i propose "core" is because it's short and sounds better than "engine" when combined with a dot and some function
21:20 celeron55 i haven't decided it yet
21:22 VanessaE my thought is "core" is okay, I routinely call it "engine core".  On-disk, it's minetest_core .
21:22 VanessaE (plus I see the same nomenclature used pretty much everywhere else, e.g. quassel core vs. client)
21:34 sapier that strange way of recording in top/bottom as well as sidebyside and displaying with bino did really work
21:37 sapier what's the opinion about #1269, I don't know why travis gcc build failed there's no usable result either
21:37 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1269 -- Scene draw cleanup + add various 3d modes by sapier
21:38 sapier and the last file compiled in that log isn't even related to what is changed
21:43 sapier I'm gonna continue testing 1269 to the end of this week. Unless someone finds bugs or new issues caused by it. It's not supposed to change anything for 2d mode and adds new features only
21:44 sapier please check the genericCAO header commit beeing part of it too
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21:55 sapier does anyone know who crazyR14 is? ... the name seems to be program ;-)
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22:07 proller again 2000+ lines changed without sense..
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22:17 VanessaE why doesn't it make sense?
22:17 VanessaE a lot of people have stereoscopic 3D TV's
22:17 proller its maybe 100 lines, other - just spaces change
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22:23 VanessaE I don't see where that's a big problem, part of the purpose of the commit is "cleanup"
22:24 VanessaE remember, even just moving a few lines of code can sometimes make git act stupid about the true nature of the change and bulk it up to hundreds of lines.
22:25 VanessaE there ARE some spacing changes in here but not a whole lot
22:26 VanessaE and remember too that editors with decent tabulating/indenting functions can move whole blocks of text back and forth in one shot.
22:26 VanessaE what to he or I is a single keystroke may become thousands of lines of changes when committed to git.
22:26 VanessaE so don't bitch about it too much
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23:04 RealBadAngel ive made a pull with some logging tweaks
23:04 RealBadAngel #1278
23:04 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1278 -- Map irrlicht log level to minetest. Allow write them to debug file. by RealBadAngel
23:05 RealBadAngel patch allow disable both irrlicht and mt spamming the console with action messages
23:06 VanessaE s/console/terminal/
23:09 RealBadAngel well, mt source uses "console"
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