Time  Nick          Message
11:41 sapier        did anyone experience strange crafting behaviour lately?
11:42 sapier        e.g. craft view not beeing updated, right click resulting in whole stack being placed, or complete stack beeing moved
12:06 jin_xi        if you have no mods and doublecklick on the empty mods lists first entry in the world->configure menu modmgr.lua attemts to index local 'mod' (a nil value)
12:56 sapier        jin_xi I'm gonna fix it in mainmenu cleanup patch oo
16:11 Calinou       in mgv6, how easy would it be to add snow biomes, in addition to the deserts?
16:11 sfan5         in C++?
16:13 Calinou       yes :)
16:14 Calinou       I'd like to see such a thing, that's why I'm asking :P
16:15 sfan5         not that hard
16:21 hmmmm         mapgen v6 is not to be modified in any way such that its output is changed
16:21 hmmmm         if you want to change mapgen v6, put it in indev
16:22 hmmmm         anyway I have plans to backport the biome thing to v6 eventually
16:22 hmmmm         sfan5, your mapgen v5 branch uses mapgen v6 from version 4.2
16:22 hmmmm         0.4.2
16:22 hmmmm         mapgen v5 is from 0.3.0
16:26 sfan5         hmmmm: yes, celeron55 already told me
16:38 Calinou       probably a bug: if you set a smaller visual scale to an entity, and a player is attached to it, the player model scale changes
16:38 Calinou       <hmmmm> mapgen v6 is not to be modified in any way such that its output is changed
16:38 Calinou       why?
16:41 sapier        isn't mapgenv6 frozen as it's stable?
16:42 Calinou       makes no sense
16:43 sapier        why not? hmmmm is working on v7 so unless there's a major bug why change v6 and cause broken maps?
16:44 Calinou       v7 is not finished yet and few people use it
16:44 Calinou       isn't it the goal to have multiple mapgens? even v5
16:53 hmmmm         calinou, stable mapgens are NOT to be modified
16:53 hmmmm         that's something that minetest of old and minecraft do
16:54 hmmmm         they happily break compatibility or create inconsistencies with maps created with the SAME mapgen from older versions
16:54 hmmmm         this is something that MINETEST DOES NOT DO
16:54 hmmmm         if you want to go break peoples' maps, please seek a job at Mojang
16:54 PenguinDad    john_minetest: it's not fixed yet
17:07 Calinou       most people don't have an aversion against map breaking
17:07 Calinou       it's not a life
18:39 * VanessaE    pokes hmmmm with #1270
18:39 ShadowBot     https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1270 -- Impossible "Invalid block data" situation in a map
19:00 RealBadAngel  i agree with Calinou, breakin a map or server for sake of having better one is not an issue
19:01 RealBadAngel  mankind evolves that way all the time
19:16 VanessaE      I wouldn't call having an optional setting "breaking" the map. Why do these snow biomes have to be forced-on? Why can't they be enabled by default only for NEW maps but disabled for existing maps (unless the admin goes in and adds some flag to map_meta.txt).  As long as such a biome uses perlin settings compatible with SPlizard's snow biomes mod and/or paramat's snowdrift or can be made to do so, what's the issue then?
19:20 VanessaE      (obviously the use of perlin settings compatible with those mods would only be needed for maps that use those mods so that they become less necessary)
19:21 BlockMen      RealBadAngel, the mankind is a bad example. see how nobody has learned from two world wars last 100 years
19:23 BlockMen      and what would break the maps?
19:37 VanessaE      BlockMen: mapblocks that suddenly go from e.g. grass to a frigid snow biome
19:38 VanessaE      because snow was added after that grass was generated but before the neighboring mapblocks were
19:38 VanessaE      (for example)
19:38 VanessaE      same thing happens when you add e.g. SPlizard's snow biomes mod to an existing map
19:39 VanessaE      which is why you have to use it with paramat's snowdrift mod so that old map areas will gradually transform.
19:43 BlockMen      VanessaE, ic. thx
19:43 BlockMen      and hmmm does not change that because a changed mapgen would break maps?
19:43 BlockMen      or did i got that wrong?
19:44 VanessaE      that's the theory, or certainly the truth if such a biome were enabled by default in all cases.
19:44 VanessaE      (hence my above suggestion)
19:45 GhostDoge     maybe a mg_flag for it?
19:45 VanessaE      honestly though, mgv6 is so entrenched that mgv7 really has no chance unless it can be made to be 100% compatible with maps generated under v6
19:45 VanessaE      GhostDoge: see above.
19:46 BlockMen      well, i like your suggestion that it only applies on new maps
19:58 RealBadAngel  BlockMen, evolution is about breakin everything and replacing with better solutions
19:59 RealBadAngel  and mandkind is rather best example of it
20:00 RealBadAngel  and faster the changes are applied, further it goes
20:00 BlockMen      no, evolution is the "win" of something in a special setting
20:00 BlockMen      if the setting changed the "best" is really fast gone
20:00 RealBadAngel  ask your grandpa how he played minetest
20:00 BlockMen      development is not always a pro
20:01 RealBadAngel  in the first place he will say but we havent got any computers....
20:01 RealBadAngel  and btw
20:02 RealBadAngel  war makes progress even faster
20:02 BlockMen      RealBadAngel, so you want war for faster "progress"?
20:02 BlockMen      great...
20:03 RealBadAngel  lol no
20:03 RealBadAngel  i just commented out facts
20:03 BlockMen      another fact: without the fast technical development the world was would never been possible
20:03 BlockMen      *world war
20:04 BlockMen      at least not with that many million dead
20:05 sapier        discussions about world wars please in minetest ;-)
20:05 RealBadAngel  no, wars are started for simpler reasons
20:06 BlockMen      its about technical development, so #-dev is fine :P
20:06 BlockMen      sapier, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1265#issuecomment-42142461
20:06 RealBadAngel  but when theyre started, sides are lookin for solutions to take advantage
20:06 VanessaE      ANYWAY
20:06 RealBadAngel  and there comes development
20:07 sapier        what's the issue Blockmen?
20:07 BlockMen      look at the image again, sapier
20:07 sapier        and?
20:07 BlockMen      the bar moves upwards?
20:08 sapier        because of relative alignment
20:08 BlockMen      the c++ bars do not, and that is the correct bahavior
20:08 sapier        you can't have fixed and relative alignment same time
20:08 BlockMen      furthermore is listed three issues
20:08 BlockMen      s/is/i have
20:09 sapier        and you can't hide the current ones too can you ?
20:09 BlockMen      and have you tried this with 1920x res? it is just crap to position statbars that way
20:09 BlockMen      sapier, yes you can
20:09 sapier        how?
20:09 BlockMen      with flags?
20:10 BlockMen      they only change c++ statbars
20:10 sapier        I'll find out how to check them
20:10 BlockMen      no, dont
20:10 BlockMen      just move it to default
20:10 BlockMen      and fix the offset stuff
20:11 sapier        offset isn't a trivial fix
20:11 BlockMen      no fix no switch (IMO)
20:11 sapier        btw why is this a issue it's been same for food without any complains by now
20:12 BlockMen      for food? what are you talking about?
20:12 sapier        ok I'm gonna fix it for builtin only
20:12 sapier        well you've got your food mod you never complained about it's relative position and now as I fix other issues you add an additional requirement
20:12 BlockMen      sapier, no. thats wrong way. then you have always offset for hunger and health bars
20:13 BlockMen      and i complained https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=137678#p137678
20:13 BlockMen      but i had not the intension to remove c++ stat bars
20:13 BlockMen      so it was no need to set it in a prior position
20:14 sapier        still there's no really sane way to fix it you can't mix up absolute and relative positioning for a generic solution
20:15 sapier        the only way to do it that way is creating a specialized hud element (2stat+1itembar) but that's exactly what we want to get rid of
20:15 BlockMen      sapier, a flag like "sticky = true" maybe?
20:15 VanessaE      sapier: I told you so.
20:15 sapier        sticky to what?
20:15 BlockMen      to hotbar
20:15 sapier        lol
20:15 sapier        that's crap
20:16 BlockMen      no, thats the only way to mess not up the statbars with different res
20:16 sapier        why not sticky to upper left corner
20:16 BlockMen      or show a better solution
20:16 sapier        or sticky to 10,10
20:16 VanessaE      sapier: the fucking statbars and hotbar NEED TO SCALE TO THE WINDOW SIZE
20:16 sapier        pixels of course
20:16 VanessaE      (on PCs)
20:16 sapier        wtf you wanted it to be ecactly 16 px
20:16 sapier        and it will scale according to celerons (crazy) scaling factor
20:16 BlockMen      sapier, no offense, but design is not your profession
20:17 VanessaE      sapier: I wanted it to be 16px in lieu of a better design since you were opposed to a better design :P
20:17 VanessaE      a better design has those statbars being about 2x their size as shown in BlockMen's screenshot, roughly.
20:17 VanessaE      and scaled smoothly with the window size
20:18 sapier        guys don't thart this shit discussion again once I'm doing it as it was before you tell me you want it different if I'm doing it different you want it same as before no matter how crazy this is
20:18 sapier        I'll fix the hiding issue and maybe the offsets but I'm not gonna add scaling beyond the way it was before forget about it
20:18 VanessaE      why not?
20:18 VanessaE      it looks like shit
20:19 sapier        because YOU wanted it to look that way don't tell me now that you can see what you requested to change it back
20:19 VanessaE      that statbar definitely doesn't follow the hotbar's scale (if it did, it'd be almost 2x the size shown in the screenshot)
20:19 sapier        it still follows hotbar scale
20:19 VanessaE      [05-04 16:16] <sapier> and it will scale according to celerons (crazy) scaling factor   <------ no, it doesn't.
20:20 celeron55     if someone is asking via email to participate in development with C++ and blender background with a fairly crappy message, should i give any pointers?
20:20 sapier        then it's a bug but it's only two scaling levels so you probably don't notice
20:20 BlockMen      VanessaE, on my screenshot is a lua statbar (IDK if that matters)
20:20 celeron55     i'd guess clever enough people will figure out not to ask me
20:20 khonkhortisan direct them to the bug list?
20:20 VanessaE      BlockMen: whether it is or not, it's too damned small
20:21 VanessaE      celeron55: and direct them to speak with Taoki and Jordach, I think.
20:21 sapier        are those the original statbars or your own ones?
20:21 Jordach       ?
20:21 sapier        BlockMen: ?
20:22 BlockMen      these are lua statbars and behave like your builtin one (except that it doesnt move kilometers left on higher resolution), sapier
20:22 celeron55     i'll answer with these links https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=175 https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9177
20:22 VanessaE      BlockMen, sapier, I just checked my local copy of minetest_game and my default HUD statbar is consistent with Blockmen's.
20:22 VanessaE      well ALMOST consistent.
20:23 sapier        almost is different from consistent
20:23 VanessaE      which means either it doesn't scale properly, or Blockmen's statbar is busted in some other way, because my statbars are slightly larger relative to my hotbar, at 1600x1200 than his are on his 1920x1080 screenshot.
20:24 sapier        then he didn't read the error message telling him about using deprecated api
20:24 VanessaE      no, strike that
20:24 BlockMen      lua statbars shouldnt scale different than the c++ does
20:24 VanessaE      they don't scale AT ALL
20:24 BlockMen      i had no error msg
20:24 VanessaE      they don't change size between the default window size of 800x600 and maximized to 1600x1200.
20:24 sapier        BlockMen: did debug or release build?
20:24 BlockMen      release
20:25 BlockMen      debug under MSVC is a pain
20:25 sapier        ok VanessaE then there's a bug they should change exactly once
20:25 VanessaE      at 800x600, the hearts are just a bit longer than 4 hotbar slots, at 1600x1200, their length is about 3 hotbar slots.
20:25 sapier        in release build all deprecation warnings are disabled by default you should enable them manually
20:25 VanessaE      but the hotbar is definitely larger at 1600x1200
20:25 sapier        and set to error for developing mods
20:26 BlockMen      VanessaE, yes. the hotbar scales fine
20:27 sapier        so does builtin statbar
20:27 VanessaE      sapier: so scaling of the statbars is busted. :)
20:27 VanessaE      no it does NOT!
20:28 BlockMen      IMO all statbars (wether c++ or lua) should scale like the hotbar. and the statbars should be able to have a hotbar size offset
20:28 BlockMen      then they would finally be useable
20:28 sapier        they do
20:28 BlockMen      no, they are not
20:28 sapier        if you use correct api they do
20:28 VanessaE      sapier: I am comparing the screenshots side-by-side.
20:28 VanessaE      the statbars are IDENTICAL pixel for pixel between 800x600 and 1600x1200.
20:29 VanessaE      and I am using git HEAD of minetest_game and one commit behind on minetest engine.
20:29 VanessaE      default textures.
20:29 BlockMen      and with that pull its the same
20:30 BlockMen      same pixel size
20:30 VanessaE      sapier:   http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/extra/statbars2.png
20:30 BlockMen      *well, not tested > 1366x
20:30 VanessaE      top one is 800x600 default window, bottom is maximized 1600x1200
20:31 VanessaE      that's the default HUD statbars present in minetest_game and/or the engine.  still think they're being scaled? :P
20:31 ShadowNinja   sapier: Modpacks aren't mods, they're just folders, if fact the modpack.txt requirement could be changed to a "no init.lua" requirement.  Their names are irrelevant.  They shouldn't be stored for anything other than display in the list.
20:31 sapier        http://de.tinypic.com/r/2mwgjt4/8
20:31 sapier        that's normal
20:32 sapier        http://de.tinypic.com/r/o8utd4/8 and that's the one and only bigger level supported by celeron
20:33 VanessaE      sapier: G*d damn it look at the screenshot
20:33 sapier        is this my version or current master?
20:33 * VanessaE    fumes
20:33 VanessaE      current master
20:33 ShadowNinja   sapier: I also thought that a main init.lua with a variable passed was better than having duplicate setlocale/print/etc lines in every entrance point's init.lua.
20:33 VanessaE      one commit behind at the moment
20:33 sapier        of course current master isn't fixed VanessaE
20:33 ShadowNinja   *Continues reading backlog*
20:34 VanessaE      well shit why didn't you tell me you were still testing with a modified branch?
20:34 sapier        well we're talking about a pull request VanessaE *smile*
20:37 BlockMen      sapier, http://i.imgur.com/OIVvrlR.png
20:37 BlockMen      ok, scaling seems correct
20:37 BlockMen      still, it should not be in builtin
20:37 BlockMen      just move it to default
20:37 BlockMen      and that offsets are not acceptable
20:38 sapier        ok then let it do RealBadAngel you want things that can't be done in a reasonable way with reasonable abount of work
20:39 BlockMen      im fine if you just fix the scaling with you pull
20:39 sapier        I'm not gona implement a layouting language for hud api and that's the only generic way to get all your requirements
20:39 BlockMen      but then dont remove the c++ one
20:40 sapier        then it's of no use
20:40 VanessaE      sapier: ok now I feel 100% stupid.
20:41 sapier        sorry to waste your time but I can't fix all your requests within a the time I wanna spend for this issue, this has to be done by someone else
20:43 VanessaE      sapier: if I'd realized this were about your pull I'd have shut up sooner :)
20:43 sapier        the only way to do what you want is extending hud api to allow dpi as well as relative positioning of elements with arbitrary origins e.g. having a hud element beeings positioned relative to another
20:44 BlockMen      sapier, or just an option to use hotbar size as offset
20:44 BlockMen      that would solve the issues i mentioned
20:44 sapier        wekk itÄs useless the hud api is fucked up and I don't intend to rewrite it in total to fix a small bug
20:46 BlockMen      furthermore the breath and health events could be useful for other cases
20:46 BlockMen      if you say so...fine. then all stays as it for now
20:46 ShadowNinja   ~tell john_minetest No, #802 isn't fixed.  It would be trivial to fix though.
20:46 ShadowBot     ShadowNinja: O.K.
20:46 sapier        you can extract it I'm not gonna waste additional time in this topic
20:47 ShadowNinja   PilzAdam: ^
20:48 ShadowNinja   sapier: I believe RBA and VanessaE have (a) normalmap script(s).
20:48 sapier        I already talked to rba ShadowNinja but thanks
20:48 VanessaE      ShadowNinja: minetest engine, util/ directory
20:49 VanessaE      generate-texture-normals.sh
20:49 VanessaE      needs gimp and gimp normalmap plugin
20:49 sapier        I don't seem to have later one
20:50 VanessaE      https://code.google.com/p/gimp-normalmap/
20:50 VanessaE      I believe that's the one I use
20:50 VanessaE      (the one in my software repo is broken)
22:54 sapier        BlockMen: #1265 check if disabling hud works as expected ... found a way how to fix the offsets while I almost fell asleep
22:54 ShadowBot     https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1265 -- Fix heart + bubble bar size on different texture packs by sapier
22:54 VanessaE      sapier: what's the change?
22:55 sapier        changeing behaviour of offset to not be a fixed pixel offset but scale to dpi factor
22:55 VanessaE      *looks at commit*
22:55 VanessaE      yes, I see that
22:55 VanessaE      a lot simpler than you expected huh?
22:55 sapier        well it's an additional change to api
22:56 sapier        and will only fix a simple class of alignment tasks
22:56 sapier        as soon as you're slightly away from edge this will not work
22:56 VanessaE      I don't expect it'll get TOO complicated in practice anyway, two or three columns worth of statbars, maybe two or three rows in the worst case
22:57 VanessaE      (that'd be 9 statbars.  would anyone have that many?)
22:57 sapier        as long as those rows are directly attached it may work once there's any relative movement between sem you don't have a chance to fix it
22:58 BlockMen      sapier, was working on that aswell (since you closed it)
22:58 BlockMen      but i added a flag "sticky" to allow both
22:59 sapier        so you added a hack to get a even more hacky way of toing it?
22:59 sapier        -t+d
22:59 BlockMen      why hacky? it allows modders to scale offset or not
22:59 VanessaE      sapier: in the tradition of minetest.  hacks on top of tweaks on top of kludges :)
22:59 sapier        coud you guys only a single time do something in a clean way? we wouldn't have to discuss for ages if hud would've been done in a sane way from the beginning
23:00 sapier        and how is sticky supposed to work at all can you explain to me?
23:01 BlockMen      if you add "sticky" to definition (of statbar) the offset is scaled aswell, if not it stays at the set pixel value
23:01 BlockMen      idk what is hacky at that
23:01 sapier        scaled to what?
23:03 sapier        guess it's almost same solution except you most likely missed user scale factor ;-) still ... is there any sane reason not to scale to dpi and user scale?
23:03 VanessaE      RealBadAngel: would you please take these messages out of the damn chat area? -->  Could not load image "xxxxx_normal.png" while building texture / Creating a dummy image for "xxxxx_normal.png"
23:03 sapier        the image themselfs will still scale no matter what your sticky bit tells
23:04 sapier        unless you stop them from scaling too ... but that is exactly what has ben called the bug this is all about
23:05 BlockMen      "you most likely missed user scale factor", what??
23:06 BlockMen      and i dont really care, i wanted keep it for backwards compatibility
23:06 sapier        forget about it, just check if enabling disabling works
23:06 BlockMen      and there may be uses for having a pixel precise offset i guess
23:06 sapier        mine is backward compatible too as scaling is only aplied if you use new api
23:07 sapier        and old api is supposed to die as soon as possible ... whenever this will be
23:07 sapier        I don't see how pixel precise offset for non pixel precise images is supposed to work?
23:07 BlockMen      sapier, dont do that with builtin
23:08 BlockMen      why the heck dont you put in in default?
23:08 sapier        it's builtin now and it's gonna be builtin later ... if you wanna change this you can fight for it later I will not change it now
23:09 BlockMen      starbar is c++ now so it will stay c++
23:09 BlockMen      ^ same argumentation
23:09 BlockMen      give me a good reason
23:09 sapier        in case you get an ok from all other core devs I may consider moving it but I will not discuss this topic with another one for you
23:09 BlockMen      you did not even discuss moving it to default
23:10 sapier        you see I don't have any interest in discussing this because I really don't care except of not wanting to discuss about it
23:11 sapier        moving to default will need changes in minetest_game too ...and this is known to be reason to discuss
23:12 sapier        hmm I really don't want to do this work but you're free to do it once it's merged, I wont block it
23:12 BlockMen      sapier, and i havent tested, but i guess it will not work that way. it checks flags only on_leave and on_join
23:12 BlockMen      so you can remove them at any time
23:12 BlockMen      *cant
23:12 sapier        you can as far as I remember init is called for each change
23:14 BlockMen      it is changed every join, health and breath change
23:14 BlockMen      so no, you cant hide them every time
23:14 sapier        well it's only changed if it needs to be changed
23:14 BlockMen      what?
23:14 BlockMen      its a minus in comparison to now
23:14 sapier        hmm true it might be visible till first change of health or breath
23:15 BlockMen      and that can be long time
23:15 sapier        for breath this most likely isn't an issue
23:15 BlockMen      sapier, and that things get moved to games isnt a problem at all, see tree growing, see thirs person view
23:15 BlockMen      s/s/d
23:16 sapier        you can do it if you want to do it
23:16 sapier        I wont
23:16 BlockMen      no, you want switch to lua statbars
23:16 BlockMen      then its your part to do it in a sane way
23:16 sapier        in this case I'll demand it to stay in core as it was now
23:17 sapier        this is ridiculous expecting to fix other things while fixing bugs is very very bad style
23:17 BlockMen      sapier, so after doin 99% of work you skip it because it just needs to be moved to default?
23:17 sapier        if you don't stop behaving that silly I promise I'm gonna expect you to fix all bugs around your next commit too
23:18 BlockMen      sapier, you want do the switch. then you have to keep features we already have
23:18 BlockMen      and hiding hud elements every time is a feature like that
23:18 sapier        It's core feature and it's gonna stay in core for the time beeing
23:18 BlockMen      and you still cant say a sane reason why it has to be in builtin
23:20 sapier        of course, it's been builtin by now is as sane as reason as having to reorganize code on fixing scaling of statbar
23:20 sapier        I'm gonna fix the possibly shown to long statbar but I will not move it
23:21 BlockMen      so you add more hacks and unneded functions just to keep it at builtin?
23:21 BlockMen      wow, im really impressed
23:21 BlockMen      by you stupidness
23:22 BlockMen      *your
23:22 sapier        BlockMen we're done I do accept different opions but I do not accept getting personal
23:23 VanessaE      sapier: does your pull work properly right now?
23:23 BlockMen      sapier, you started getting personal : "sapier: if you don't stop behaving that silly "
23:23 BlockMen      that not nicer than what i said
23:23 sapier        there's a slight but important difference
23:26 VanessaE      well I guess it doesn't (note to self:  learn to read).
23:26 VanessaE      sapier: when it does, why not just push it, and worry about this whole move-it-into-minetest_game-default argument later?
23:28 sapier        actually VanessaE that's what I intended to do
23:28 VanessaE      ok
23:29 sapier        well the fix is ready but without testing I can't tell for sure if it works
23:29 BlockMen      sapier, tree growing was also builtin but is game part now
23:29 BlockMen      so, please, tell me another reason for putting it in builtin
23:31 sapier        huds are now hidden immediatly vanessaE do you have a way to test it?
23:31 sapier        I could push and fix the bugs later too but I don't really wanna do this
23:33 sapier        but considering the amount of time I wasted on discussing nonsense for this issue I really think about doing it this way
23:34 VanessaE      you mean hidden at game-start?
23:34 sapier        hidden once someone calles hud_set_flags()
23:35 sapier        previous this commit they would've been hidden on first change
23:35 sapier        which is obviously not intended
23:36 sapier        I want to get this damn thing done everytime discussing about it ends in a desaster
23:36 sapier        who did add luahud? I wanna thank him/her?
23:40 VanessaE      no clue :)
23:41 VanessaE      now so that I understand it, why exactly should/are the statbars being hidden upon calling that function?
23:41 VanessaE      I've been trying to follow but honestly, the argument hid the real discussion
23:42 sapier        because it's been that way by now
23:43 BlockMen      VanessaE, e.g for mods that want reorganize hud