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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-05-04

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08:15 Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/
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09:54 john_minetest Hey, is that one fixed: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/802 ?
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11:41 sapier did anyone experience strange crafting behaviour lately?
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11:42 sapier e.g. craft view not beeing updated, right click resulting in whole stack being placed, or complete stack beeing moved
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12:06 jin_xi if you have no mods and doublecklick on the empty mods lists first entry in the world->configure menu modmgr.lua attemts to index local 'mod' (a nil value)
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12:56 sapier jin_xi I'm gonna fix it in mainmenu cleanup patch oo
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16:11 Calinou in mgv6, how easy would it be to add snow biomes, in addition to the deserts?
16:11 sfan5 in C++?
16:13 Calinou yes :)
16:14 Calinou I'd like to see such a thing, that's why I'm asking :P
16:15 sfan5 not that hard
16:21 hmmmm mapgen v6 is not to be modified in any way such that its output is changed
16:21 hmmmm if you want to change mapgen v6, put it in indev
16:22 hmmmm anyway I have plans to backport the biome thing to v6 eventually
16:22 hmmmm sfan5, your mapgen v5 branch uses mapgen v6 from version 4.2
16:22 hmmmm 0.4.2
16:22 hmmmm mapgen v5 is from 0.3.0
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16:26 sfan5 hmmmm: yes, celeron55 already told me
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16:38 Calinou probably a bug: if you set a smaller visual scale to an entity, and a player is attached to it, the player model scale changes
16:38 Calinou <hmmmm> mapgen v6 is not to be modified in any way such that its output is changed
16:38 Calinou why?
16:41 sapier isn't mapgenv6 frozen as it's stable?
16:42 Calinou makes no sense
16:43 sapier why not? hmmmm is working on v7 so unless there's a major bug why change v6 and cause broken maps?
16:44 Calinou v7 is not finished yet and few people use it
16:44 Calinou isn't it the goal to have multiple mapgens? even v5
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16:46 john_minetest PilzAdam: fixed yet ?-> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/802 ?
16:53 hmmmm calinou, stable mapgens are NOT to be modified
16:53 hmmmm that's something that minetest of old and minecraft do
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16:54 hmmmm they happily break compatibility or create inconsistencies with maps created with the SAME mapgen from older versions
16:54 hmmmm this is something that MINETEST DOES NOT DO
16:54 hmmmm if you want to go break peoples' maps, please seek a job at Mojang
16:54 PenguinDad john_minetest: it's not fixed yet
17:07 Calinou most people don't have an aversion against map breaking
17:07 Calinou it's not a life
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18:39 * VanessaE pokes hmmmm with #1270
18:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1270 -- Impossible "Invalid block data" situation in a map
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19:00 RealBadAngel i agree with Calinou, breakin a map or server for sake of having better one is not an issue
19:01 RealBadAngel mankind evolves that way all the time
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19:16 VanessaE I wouldn't call having an optional setting "breaking" the map. Why do these snow biomes have to be forced-on? Why can't they be enabled by default only for NEW maps but disabled for existing maps (unless the admin goes in and adds some flag to map_meta.txt).  As long as such a biome uses perlin settings compatible with SPlizard's snow biomes mod and/or paramat's snowdrift or can be made to do so, what's the issue then?
19:20 VanessaE (obviously the use of perlin settings compatible with those mods would only be needed for maps that use those mods so that they become less necessary)
19:21 BlockMen RealBadAngel, the mankind is a bad example. see how nobody has learned from two world wars last 100 years
19:23 BlockMen and what would break the maps?
19:37 VanessaE BlockMen: mapblocks that suddenly go from e.g. grass to a frigid snow biome
19:38 VanessaE because snow was added after that grass was generated but before the neighboring mapblocks were
19:38 VanessaE (for example)
19:38 VanessaE same thing happens when you add e.g. SPlizard's snow biomes mod to an existing map
19:39 VanessaE which is why you have to use it with paramat's snowdrift mod so that old map areas will gradually transform.
19:43 BlockMen VanessaE, ic. thx
19:43 BlockMen and hmmm does not change that because a changed mapgen would break maps?
19:43 BlockMen or did i got that wrong?
19:44 VanessaE that's the theory, or certainly the truth if such a biome were enabled by default in all cases.
19:44 VanessaE (hence my above suggestion)
19:45 GhostDoge maybe a mg_flag for it?
19:45 VanessaE honestly though, mgv6 is so entrenched that mgv7 really has no chance unless it can be made to be 100% compatible with maps generated under v6
19:45 VanessaE GhostDoge: see above.
19:46 BlockMen well, i like your suggestion that it only applies on new maps
19:58 RealBadAngel BlockMen, evolution is about breakin everything and replacing with better solutions
19:59 RealBadAngel and mandkind is rather best example of it
20:00 RealBadAngel and faster the changes are applied, further it goes
20:00 BlockMen no, evolution is the "win" of something in a special setting
20:00 BlockMen if the setting changed the "best" is really fast gone
20:00 RealBadAngel ask your grandpa how he played minetest
20:00 BlockMen development is not always a pro
20:01 RealBadAngel in the first place he will say but we havent got any computers....
20:01 RealBadAngel and btw
20:02 RealBadAngel war makes progress even faster
20:02 BlockMen RealBadAngel, so you want war for faster "progress"?
20:02 BlockMen great...
20:03 RealBadAngel lol no
20:03 RealBadAngel i just commented out facts
20:03 BlockMen another fact: without the fast technical development the world was would never been possible
20:03 BlockMen *world war
20:04 BlockMen at least not with that many million dead
20:05 sapier discussions about world wars please in minetest ;-)
20:05 RealBadAngel no, wars are started for simpler reasons
20:06 BlockMen its about technical development, so #-dev is fine :P
20:06 BlockMen sapier, https://github.com/minetest/minete​st/pull/1265#issuecomment-42142461
20:06 RealBadAngel but when theyre started, sides are lookin for solutions to take advantage
20:06 VanessaE ANYWAY
20:06 RealBadAngel and there comes development
20:07 sapier what's the issue Blockmen?
20:07 BlockMen look at the image again, sapier
20:07 sapier and?
20:07 BlockMen the bar moves upwards?
20:08 sapier because of relative alignment
20:08 BlockMen the c++ bars do not, and that is the correct bahavior
20:08 sapier you can't have fixed and relative alignment same time
20:08 BlockMen furthermore is listed three issues
20:08 BlockMen s/is/i have
20:09 sapier and you can't hide the current ones too can you ?
20:09 BlockMen and have you tried this with 1920x res? it is just crap to position statbars that way
20:09 BlockMen sapier, yes you can
20:09 sapier how?
20:09 BlockMen with flags?
20:10 BlockMen they only change c++ statbars
20:10 sapier I'll find out how to check them
20:10 BlockMen no, dont
20:10 BlockMen just move it to default
20:10 BlockMen and fix the offset stuff
20:11 sapier offset isn't a trivial fix
20:11 BlockMen no fix no switch (IMO)
20:11 sapier btw why is this a issue it's been same for food without any complains by now
20:12 BlockMen for food? what are you talking about?
20:12 sapier ok I'm gonna fix it for builtin only
20:12 sapier well you've got your food mod you never complained about it's relative position and now as I fix other issues you add an additional requirement
20:12 BlockMen sapier, no. thats wrong way. then you have always offset for hunger and health bars
20:13 BlockMen and i complained https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?p=137678#p137678
20:13 BlockMen but i had not the intension to remove c++ stat bars
20:13 BlockMen so it was no need to set it in a prior position
20:14 sapier still there's no really sane way to fix it you can't mix up absolute and relative positioning for a generic solution
20:15 sapier the only way to do it that way is creating a specialized hud element (2stat+1itembar) but that's exactly what we want to get rid of
20:15 BlockMen sapier, a flag like "sticky = true" maybe?
20:15 VanessaE sapier: I told you so.
20:15 sapier sticky to what?
20:15 BlockMen to hotbar
20:15 sapier lol
20:15 sapier that's crap
20:16 BlockMen no, thats the only way to mess not up the statbars with different res
20:16 sapier why not sticky to upper left corner
20:16 BlockMen or show a better solution
20:16 sapier or sticky to 10,10
20:16 VanessaE sapier: the fucking statbars and hotbar NEED TO SCALE TO THE WINDOW SIZE
20:16 sapier pixels of course
20:16 VanessaE (on PCs)
20:16 sapier wtf you wanted it to be ecactly 16 px
20:16 sapier and it will scale according to celerons (crazy) scaling factor
20:16 BlockMen sapier, no offense, but design is not your profession
20:17 VanessaE sapier: I wanted it to be 16px in lieu of a better design since you were opposed to a better design :P
20:17 VanessaE a better design has those statbars being about 2x their size as shown in BlockMen's screenshot, roughly.
20:17 VanessaE and scaled smoothly with the window size
20:18 sapier guys don't thart this shit discussion again once I'm doing it as it was before you tell me you want it different if I'm doing it different you want it same as before no matter how crazy this is
20:18 sapier I'll fix the hiding issue and maybe the offsets but I'm not gonna add scaling beyond the way it was before forget about it
20:18 VanessaE why not?
20:18 VanessaE it looks like shit
20:19 sapier because YOU wanted it to look that way don't tell me now that you can see what you requested to change it back
20:19 VanessaE that statbar definitely doesn't follow the hotbar's scale (if it did, it'd be almost 2x the size shown in the screenshot)
20:19 sapier it still follows hotbar scale
20:19 VanessaE [05-04 16:16] <sapier> and it will scale according to celerons (crazy) scaling factor   <------ no, it doesn't.
20:20 celeron55 if someone is asking via email to participate in development with C++ and blender background with a fairly crappy message, should i give any pointers?
20:20 sapier then it's a bug but it's only two scaling levels so you probably don't notice
20:20 BlockMen VanessaE, on my screenshot is a lua statbar (IDK if that matters)
20:20 celeron55 i'd guess clever enough people will figure out not to ask me
20:20 khonkhortisan direct them to the bug list?
20:20 VanessaE BlockMen: whether it is or not, it's too damned small
20:21 VanessaE celeron55: and direct them to speak with Taoki and Jordach, I think.
20:21 sapier are those the original statbars or your own ones?
20:21 Jordach ?
20:21 sapier BlockMen: ?
20:22 BlockMen these are lua statbars and behave like your builtin one (except that it doesnt move kilometers left on higher resolution), sapier
20:22 celeron55 i'll answer with these links https://forum.minetest.net/​viewtopic.php?f=7&amp;t=175 https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=7&amp;t=9177
20:22 VanessaE BlockMen, sapier, I just checked my local copy of minetest_game and my default HUD statbar is consistent with Blockmen's.
20:22 VanessaE well ALMOST consistent.
20:23 sapier almost is different from consistent
20:23 VanessaE which means either it doesn't scale properly, or Blockmen's statbar is busted in some other way, because my statbars are slightly larger relative to my hotbar, at 1600x1200 than his are on his 1920x1080 screenshot.
20:24 sapier then he didn't read the error message telling him about using deprecated api
20:24 VanessaE no, strike that
20:24 BlockMen lua statbars shouldnt scale different than the c++ does
20:24 VanessaE they don't scale AT ALL
20:24 BlockMen i had no error msg
20:24 VanessaE they don't change size between the default window size of 800x600 and maximized to 1600x1200.
20:24 sapier BlockMen: did debug or release build?
20:24 BlockMen release
20:25 BlockMen debug under MSVC is a pain
20:25 sapier ok VanessaE then there's a bug they should change exactly once
20:25 VanessaE at 800x600, the hearts are just a bit longer than 4 hotbar slots, at 1600x1200, their length is about 3 hotbar slots.
20:25 sapier in release build all deprecation warnings are disabled by default you should enable them manually
20:25 VanessaE but the hotbar is definitely larger at 1600x1200
20:25 sapier and set to error for developing mods
20:26 BlockMen VanessaE, yes. the hotbar scales fine
20:27 sapier so does builtin statbar
20:27 VanessaE sapier: so scaling of the statbars is busted. :)
20:27 VanessaE no it does NOT!
20:28 BlockMen IMO all statbars (wether c++ or lua) should scale like the hotbar. and the statbars should be able to have a hotbar size offset
20:28 BlockMen then they would finally be useable
20:28 sapier they do
20:28 BlockMen no, they are not
20:28 sapier if you use correct api they do
20:28 VanessaE sapier: I am comparing the screenshots side-by-side.
20:28 VanessaE the statbars are IDENTICAL pixel for pixel between 800x600 and 1600x1200.
20:29 VanessaE and I am using git HEAD of minetest_game and one commit behind on minetest engine.
20:29 VanessaE default textures.
20:29 BlockMen and with that pull its the same
20:30 BlockMen same pixel size
20:30 VanessaE sapier:   http://digitalaudioconcepts.co​m/vanessa/extra/statbars2.png
20:30 BlockMen *well, not tested > 1366x
20:30 VanessaE top one is 800x600 default window, bottom is maximized 1600x1200
20:31 VanessaE that's the default HUD statbars present in minetest_game and/or the engine.  still think they're being scaled? :P
20:31 ShadowNinja sapier: Modpacks aren't mods, they're just folders, if fact the modpack.txt requirement could be changed to a "no init.lua" requirement.  Their names are irrelevant.  They shouldn't be stored for anything other than display in the list.
20:31 sapier http://de.tinypic.com/r/2mwgjt4/8
20:31 sapier that's normal
20:32 sapier http://de.tinypic.com/r/o8utd4/8 and that's the one and only bigger level supported by celeron
20:33 VanessaE sapier: G*d damn it look at the screenshot
20:33 sapier is this my version or current master?
20:33 * VanessaE fumes
20:33 VanessaE current master
20:33 ShadowNinja sapier: I also thought that a main init.lua with a variable passed was better than having duplicate setlocale/print/etc lines in every entrance point's init.lua.
20:33 VanessaE one commit behind at the moment
20:33 sapier of course current master isn't fixed VanessaE
20:33 ShadowNinja *Continues reading backlog*
20:34 VanessaE well shit why didn't you tell me you were still testing with a modified branch?
20:34 sapier well we're talking about a pull request VanessaE *smile*
20:37 BlockMen sapier, http://i.imgur.com/OIVvrlR.png
20:37 BlockMen ok, scaling seems correct
20:37 BlockMen still, it should not be in builtin
20:37 BlockMen just move it to default
20:37 BlockMen and that offsets are not acceptable
20:38 sapier ok then let it do RealBadAngel you want things that can't be done in a reasonable way with reasonable abount of work
20:39 BlockMen im fine if you just fix the scaling with you pull
20:39 sapier I'm not gona implement a layouting language for hud api and that's the only generic way to get all your requirements
20:39 BlockMen but then dont remove the c++ one
20:40 sapier then it's of no use
20:40 VanessaE sapier: ok now I feel 100% stupid.
20:41 sapier sorry to waste your time but I can't fix all your requests within a the time I wanna spend for this issue, this has to be done by someone else
20:43 VanessaE sapier: if I'd realized this were about your pull I'd have shut up sooner :)
20:43 sapier the only way to do what you want is extending hud api to allow dpi as well as relative positioning of elements with arbitrary origins e.g. having a hud element beeings positioned relative to another
20:44 BlockMen sapier, or just an option to use hotbar size as offset
20:44 BlockMen that would solve the issues i mentioned
20:44 sapier wekk itÄs useless the hud api is fucked up and I don't intend to rewrite it in total to fix a small bug
20:46 BlockMen furthermore the breath and health events could be useful for other cases
20:46 BlockMen if you say so...fine. then all stays as it for now
20:46 ShadowNinja ~tell john_minetest No, #802 isn't fixed.  It would be trivial to fix though.
20:46 ShadowBot ShadowNinja: O.K.
20:46 sapier you can extract it I'm not gonna waste additional time in this topic
20:47 ShadowNinja PilzAdam: ^
20:48 ShadowNinja sapier: I believe RBA and VanessaE have (a) normalmap script(s).
20:48 sapier I already talked to rba ShadowNinja but thanks
20:48 VanessaE ShadowNinja: minetest engine, util/ directory
20:49 VanessaE generate-texture-normals.sh
20:49 VanessaE needs gimp and gimp normalmap plugin
20:49 sapier I don't seem to have later one
20:50 VanessaE https://code.google.com/p/gimp-normalmap/
20:50 VanessaE I believe that's the one I use
20:50 VanessaE (the one in my software repo is broken)
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22:54 sapier BlockMen: #1265 check if disabling hud works as expected ... found a way how to fix the offsets while I almost fell asleep
22:54 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1265 -- Fix heart + bubble bar size on different texture packs by sapier
22:54 VanessaE sapier: what's the change?
22:55 sapier changeing behaviour of offset to not be a fixed pixel offset but scale to dpi factor
22:55 VanessaE *looks at commit*
22:55 VanessaE yes, I see that
22:55 VanessaE a lot simpler than you expected huh?
22:55 sapier well it's an additional change to api
22:56 sapier and will only fix a simple class of alignment tasks
22:56 sapier as soon as you're slightly away from edge this will not work
22:56 VanessaE I don't expect it'll get TOO complicated in practice anyway, two or three columns worth of statbars, maybe two or three rows in the worst case
22:57 VanessaE (that'd be 9 statbars.  would anyone have that many?)
22:57 sapier as long as those rows are directly attached it may work once there's any relative movement between sem you don't have a chance to fix it
22:58 BlockMen sapier, was working on that aswell (since you closed it)
22:58 BlockMen but i added a flag "sticky" to allow both
22:59 sapier so you added a hack to get a even more hacky way of toing it?
22:59 sapier -t+d
22:59 BlockMen why hacky? it allows modders to scale offset or not
22:59 VanessaE sapier: in the tradition of minetest.  hacks on top of tweaks on top of kludges :)
22:59 sapier coud you guys only a single time do something in a clean way? we wouldn't have to discuss for ages if hud would've been done in a sane way from the beginning
23:00 sapier and how is sticky supposed to work at all can you explain to me?
23:01 BlockMen if you add "sticky" to definition (of statbar) the offset is scaled aswell, if not it stays at the set pixel value
23:01 BlockMen idk what is hacky at that
23:01 sapier scaled to what?
23:03 sapier guess it's almost same solution except you most likely missed user scale factor ;-) still ... is there any sane reason not to scale to dpi and user scale?
23:03 VanessaE RealBadAngel: would you please take these messages out of the damn chat area? -->  Could not load image "xxxxx_normal.png" while building texture / Creating a dummy image for "xxxxx_normal.png"
23:03 sapier the image themselfs will still scale no matter what your sticky bit tells
23:04 sapier unless you stop them from scaling too ... but that is exactly what has ben called the bug this is all about
23:05 BlockMen "you most likely missed user scale factor", what??
23:06 BlockMen and i dont really care, i wanted keep it for backwards compatibility
23:06 sapier forget about it, just check if enabling disabling works
23:06 BlockMen and there may be uses for having a pixel precise offset i guess
23:06 sapier mine is backward compatible too as scaling is only aplied if you use new api
23:07 sapier and old api is supposed to die as soon as possible ... whenever this will be
23:07 sapier I don't see how pixel precise offset for non pixel precise images is supposed to work?
23:07 BlockMen sapier, dont do that with builtin
23:08 BlockMen why the heck dont you put in in default?
23:08 sapier it's builtin now and it's gonna be builtin later ... if you wanna change this you can fight for it later I will not change it now
23:09 BlockMen starbar is c++ now so it will stay c++
23:09 BlockMen ^ same argumentation
23:09 BlockMen give me a good reason
23:09 sapier in case you get an ok from all other core devs I may consider moving it but I will not discuss this topic with another one for you
23:09 BlockMen you did not even discuss moving it to default
23:10 sapier you see I don't have any interest in discussing this because I really don't care except of not wanting to discuss about it
23:11 sapier moving to default will need changes in minetest_game too ...and this is known to be reason to discuss
23:12 sapier hmm I really don't want to do this work but you're free to do it once it's merged, I wont block it
23:12 BlockMen sapier, and i havent tested, but i guess it will not work that way. it checks flags only on_leave and on_join
23:12 BlockMen so you can remove them at any time
23:12 BlockMen *cant
23:12 sapier you can as far as I remember init is called for each change
23:14 BlockMen it is changed every join, health and breath change
23:14 BlockMen so no, you cant hide them every time
23:14 sapier well it's only changed if it needs to be changed
23:14 BlockMen what?
23:14 BlockMen its a minus in comparison to now
23:14 sapier hmm true it might be visible till first change of health or breath
23:15 BlockMen and that can be long time
23:15 sapier for breath this most likely isn't an issue
23:15 BlockMen sapier, and that things get moved to games isnt a problem at all, see tree growing, see thirs person view
23:15 BlockMen s/s/d
23:16 sapier you can do it if you want to do it
23:16 sapier I wont
23:16 BlockMen no, you want switch to lua statbars
23:16 BlockMen then its your part to do it in a sane way
23:16 sapier in this case I'll demand it to stay in core as it was now
23:17 sapier this is ridiculous expecting to fix other things while fixing bugs is very very bad style
23:17 BlockMen sapier, so after doin 99% of work you skip it because it just needs to be moved to default?
23:17 sapier if you don't stop behaving that silly I promise I'm gonna expect you to fix all bugs around your next commit too
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23:18 BlockMen sapier, you want do the switch. then you have to keep features we already have
23:18 BlockMen and hiding hud elements every time is a feature like that
23:18 sapier It's core feature and it's gonna stay in core for the time beeing
23:18 BlockMen and you still cant say a sane reason why it has to be in builtin
23:20 sapier of course, it's been builtin by now is as sane as reason as having to reorganize code on fixing scaling of statbar
23:20 sapier I'm gonna fix the possibly shown to long statbar but I will not move it
23:21 BlockMen so you add more hacks and unneded functions just to keep it at builtin?
23:21 BlockMen wow, im really impressed
23:21 BlockMen by you stupidness
23:22 BlockMen *your
23:22 sapier BlockMen we're done I do accept different opions but I do not accept getting personal
23:23 VanessaE sapier: does your pull work properly right now?
23:23 BlockMen sapier, you started getting personal : "sapier: if you don't stop behaving that silly "
23:23 BlockMen that not nicer than what i said
23:23 sapier there's a slight but important difference
23:26 VanessaE well I guess it doesn't (note to self:  learn to read).
23:26 VanessaE sapier: when it does, why not just push it, and worry about this whole move-it-into-minetest_game-default argument later?
23:28 sapier actually VanessaE that's what I intended to do
23:28 VanessaE ok
23:29 sapier well the fix is ready but without testing I can't tell for sure if it works
23:29 BlockMen sapier, tree growing was also builtin but is game part now
23:29 BlockMen so, please, tell me another reason for putting it in builtin
23:31 sapier huds are now hidden immediatly vanessaE do you have a way to test it?
23:31 sapier I could push and fix the bugs later too but I don't really wanna do this
23:33 sapier but considering the amount of time I wasted on discussing nonsense for this issue I really think about doing it this way
23:34 VanessaE you mean hidden at game-start?
23:34 sapier hidden once someone calles hud_set_flags()
23:35 sapier previous this commit they would've been hidden on first change
23:35 sapier which is obviously not intended
23:36 sapier I want to get this damn thing done everytime discussing about it ends in a desaster
23:36 sapier who did add luahud? I wanna thank him/her?
23:40 VanessaE no clue :)
23:41 VanessaE now so that I understand it, why exactly should/are the statbars being hidden upon calling that function?
23:41 VanessaE I've been trying to follow but honestly, the argument hid the real discussion
23:42 sapier because it's been that way by now
23:43 BlockMen VanessaE, e.g for mods that want reorganize hud
23:55 sapier left #minetest-dev

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