Time Nick Message 00:03 RealBadAngel well, you were seriously adding noise to textures> 00:03 RealBadAngel ? 00:03 Taoki You mean my idea about noise on solid block vertices? 00:04 RealBadAngel yes 00:04 Taoki Well I didn't mean noise to textures. This would probably have nothing to do with textures really 00:04 Taoki I meant noise to vertices 00:04 Taoki So the ground can look rough a bit, and more realistic for who wants that 00:05 Taoki Similar to how the water shader creates waves, but of course static and with more detail 00:05 RealBadAngel well, that parallax mapping does already 00:06 Taoki Can only do it to a small extent yeah 00:06 Taoki Was thinking of this as an additional effect, for the actual surface to be bent and rough 00:06 Taoki Like this http://minecraftpremiumfree.net/premium/minecraft_logo.png 00:06 RealBadAngel have you saw any implementation of similar idea? some pics? 00:07 Taoki Or better, like this: http://collectionminecraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/minecraft-grass-block-iconimage-from-2--minecraft-block-post-3-kquoyplt.png Excluding grass particles on top, but see the edges 00:08 Taoki I only know it's possible for shaders to deform vertices. Possibly subdivide them a bit 00:08 Taoki Water already does that as it wavers now 00:10 Taoki http://p1.pichost.me/i/27/1497704.jpg If only something like this were possible in-game :) 00:11 Taoki ^ That's another idea of block smoothing I have in mind. See the round edges 00:11 Taoki Rounding the edges of blocks a bit felt like another nice dea ^^ But prolly harder to do... still felt like talking about it 00:13 RealBadAngel http://www.deepmesh3d.com/help/matblend.htm 00:13 RealBadAngel take a look on possible material types 00:14 Taoki http://gameslikeminecraft.ddl-it.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/grass.png Ahhh... if only... 00:14 Taoki ok 00:18 RealBadAngel not possible 00:19 RealBadAngel that is made out of polygons, not flat textures 00:19 Taoki RealBadAngel: Yeah, those are some very nice material possibilities 00:19 * Taoki nods 00:27 Taoki Guess I like to think of more than is possible sometimes. don't automatically take what I say as a feature request or anything though... I'm not that crazy :P Though roughing the vertices of solid objects was an actual idea... clearly nothing urgent or important now tho 00:39 Megaf RealBadAngel: the reddish thing happens when I enable waving something 00:39 Megaf and it happens only with your branch 00:40 Megaf on normal minetest master branch I have everything waving and all shaders 00:43 Megaf RealBadAngel: just confirmed here, all shaders do work fine in minetest master branch 00:50 RealBadAngel Megaf, ive located the bug, thx 00:51 RealBadAngel i will push the changes shotly 00:51 RealBadAngel +r 00:52 Taoki RealBadAngel: Isn't a gradient map included in minetest_game by default? Was curious to change the colors and test it a bit 00:52 Taoki To see how and if it all works 00:52 Taoki I mean, for coloring the fog and all 00:53 RealBadAngel hmmm, tonemaps are used in mc 00:53 RealBadAngel for grass and lotsa other things 00:54 RealBadAngel if you mean fog i suggest using the one i made for sun 00:54 RealBadAngel this way fog and sun could have very same colors 00:54 Taoki RealBadAngel: Ok. Where can I get the image file for it? And where do I place it? Does it work automatically also, without a Lua function? 00:55 RealBadAngel hold on a sec 00:55 RealBadAngel https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=9140 00:55 RealBadAngel grab tonemaps from here 00:56 Taoki Thanks 00:56 RealBadAngel but, for tonemaps to work, you have to use textures in the first place 00:56 RealBadAngel and its automatic 00:56 Taoki If I can get the sun and moon tonemap as a RGB color in sky.cpp, fog colors are as good as solved 00:57 RealBadAngel just put those files either in textures pack folder or /textures/default/pack 00:57 Taoki Also, texturable sun and moon mean that you can texture the sun and moon themselves, rather than them being blocks, right? 00:57 Taoki So they can be images 00:57 Taoki Are they still tonemap colored then also? 00:58 RealBadAngel if you will give sun a texture it will use it 00:58 RealBadAngel if you will put there tonemap it will be tinted also 00:58 Taoki Nice 00:58 Taoki Yeah was just curious if sun and moon can use texture images now. Good to know 00:59 RealBadAngel hold on 00:59 RealBadAngel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hubBBzh_190 00:59 Taoki Ah, cool... yes it works then 01:05 RealBadAngel yes 01:05 RealBadAngel and i think tonemap is quite good 01:05 RealBadAngel it blends nicely with dawn/dusk image 01:08 Taoki How are the tonemap colors named in the code? So I can know what to get in sky.cpp 01:08 RealBadAngel color is picked from file using some blac magic 01:09 Taoki At startup I assume, but not dynamically right? 01:09 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/sky.cpp#L166 01:10 RealBadAngel dynamically 01:10 RealBadAngel depending on time of day 01:10 RealBadAngel oops, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/sky.cpp#L164 01:11 RealBadAngel at 164 offset is calculated 01:11 RealBadAngel sin is used there to make the changes faster at start 01:11 RealBadAngel then slower 01:12 Taoki m_materials[3].EmissiveColor and m_materials[4].EmissiveColor seem to be the two colors. Will see 01:13 Taoki Need to go now, will look at it tomorrow 01:13 Taoki night 01:13 RealBadAngel 3 is sun, 4 is moon 01:13 RealBadAngel cya 01:14 Megaf RealBadAngel: wheres my fix? :) 01:15 RealBadAngel about to test it, gimme 15 minutes 01:21 RealBadAngel Megaf, pushed 01:22 RealBadAngel but you will need one extra file for that 01:22 RealBadAngel lemme upload it somwhere 01:27 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/iW5TY2F.png 01:27 RealBadAngel save it as water_surface_animated_normal.png in any textures path 01:28 RealBadAngel this file is used by water surface shader 01:31 ShadowNinja hmmmm: hexafraction was saying that he planned to do exactly that (two nodes per MapBlock, one with translucent nodes) in mosstest (a Minetest clone in Java). 01:33 hmmmm cool then, but I'd rather wait for celeron55's comment on it 01:33 hmmmm if it were viable I'm sure he would've done that 01:38 RealBadAngel since ive done shader separation and move them all to tiles 01:39 RealBadAngel thats no problem for me to introduce more scene nodes 01:39 RealBadAngel i couldnt do that before because everything were bound to tightly 01:42 RealBadAngel branch name "united" can be misleading in fact 01:43 RealBadAngel theyre unitied because theres one shadar for all the nodes 01:43 RealBadAngel but it is preconfigured for all the possible materials and drawtypes 01:43 RealBadAngel at the compile time 01:44 RealBadAngel also my latest push is about to add totally different shader, water surface one 01:46 RealBadAngel also i do have (almost) rdy lava surface shader that will use bezier curves to create lava rivers/flowing lava surfaces 01:47 VanessaE hmmmm: celeron's comment on what, doing one node per mapblock? 01:47 hmmmm yes 01:47 RealBadAngel that wont be any good 01:47 VanessaE [04-29 19:12] 01:53:48 <+hmmmm> what problems are there with making a mapblock an entire node? 01:47 VanessaE [04-29 19:12] none, assuming you have infinite time for implementing it 01:48 hmmmm Oh 01:48 hmmmm i didn't see that 01:48 RealBadAngel what we do need is one node per type 01:48 RealBadAngel one water, one dirt etc 01:49 RealBadAngel anything else is just clusterfuck, same as we do already have 01:49 hmmmm that might fix transparency but that'd defeat the purpose 01:49 hmmmm the main purpose of doing this is to add occlusion culling and query 01:49 RealBadAngel ^^ above 01:50 hmmmm huh 01:50 hmmmm anyway I don't get what celeron means by that 01:50 hmmmm is it very difficult to implement or something? 01:50 RealBadAngel not really 01:51 VanessaE [04-29 19:12] or, well 01:51 VanessaE [04-29 19:13] you have to somehow build into it the occlusion culling and so 01:51 VanessaE [04-29 19:13] but it shouldn't be a big deal 01:51 VanessaE so idk 01:51 RealBadAngel in fact i could code in a few days 01:52 VanessaE I got the impression that it would be incredibly non-trivial to implement 01:52 RealBadAngel last few months for me were rather reading irrlicht docs and sample apps 01:52 VanessaE but it begs the question: how fine-grained does the occlusion culling need to get to get the most benefit? 01:53 RealBadAngel VanessaE, in fact u shouldnt even bother about it 01:53 RealBadAngel irrlicht does everything for u 01:56 VanessaE perhaps. I don't understand irrlicht enough to know just how much work it would have to do with a mapblock-sized irrlicht node versus, say, one node per material per mapblock 02:00 hmmmm hmm 02:00 hmmmm i wonder if there is a disadvantage to having too many scene nodes 02:01 VanessaE dunno 02:01 VanessaE the way I understood it when i read up on this before, a lot is better than few, but I didn't see anything that said one way or the other about any practical limits 02:04 VanessaE one per mapblock seems perfectly reasonable 02:05 VanessaE (well one per transparent/translucent/opaque/liquid, let's say) 02:05 hmmmm yeah 02:05 hmmmm anyway I'll look at it when i get the time 02:07 VanessaE hm, with a view range of 100, 4/3 pi R ^3 makes a maximum volume of around 4188790 nodes or about 1023 mapblocks 02:07 VanessaE (if every last mapblock had non-air) 02:08 Megaf RealBadAngel: that red thing is fixed indeed, I still get 4 lines of this 23:07:14: ERROR[main]: Reading from file! 02:08 VanessaE Megaf: ignore that. 02:08 VanessaE it's not a bug, it's a diagnostic feature. 02:08 Megaf ok 02:09 Megaf and water is white 02:09 Megaf feature too? 02:09 VanessaE just a diagnostic. ignore it. 02:11 Megaf well done RealBadAngel. Lights look pretty damn good now 02:11 VanessaE hmmmm: I don't know how to calculate the visible area from the player's FoV but I guess 20% of that figure maybe? So even one irrlicht node per mapblock would probably barely even touch even the slowest CPU. If there's a benefit to doing one per material type. seems like there's tons of room to do that. 02:11 Megaf everything is beautiful 02:12 Megaf everythin is on, 10 FPS at 1280x720 02:12 VanessaE RealBadAngel: btw, check lava lighting. sources are lit differently from flowing again (in master) 02:21 VanessaE um, guys... 02:21 VanessaE Megaf: you know that issue you had with timeout messages leading to server lockouts? 02:21 VanessaE it's suddenly happening here too on one of my servers 02:22 * VanessaE updates... 02:29 VanessaE For reference, I mean errors of this nature: 02:29 VanessaE 22:20:57: ERROR[ConnectionSend]: con(5/1)RunTimeouts(): Peer 363 has timed out. (source=peer->timeout_counter) 02:30 VanessaE updated and restarted. It responded to a SIGINT but didn't actually die after about 3 minutes waiting, so I SIGTERM'd it. 02:33 Megaf VanessaE: yep, some say they are caused by tablets 02:34 VanessaE strange, this is the first time I've seen it happen though 02:35 VanessaE well it's back now, and updated. if it happened again I'll file an issue. 02:35 VanessaE happens* 02:35 hmmmm VanessaE: I suppose you can model the entire viewable area as a sphere, and the view fulcrum as a rectangle projected onto that sphere 02:36 VanessaE hmmmm: yeah, that's kinda what I was going for, just to keep the math simple :P 02:36 hmmmm if you know both the vertical and horizontal FoV you can figure it out 02:36 Megaf RealBadAngel: when I enable waving water, water waves, but it turns translucid white, and when I disable waving water it turns red 02:36 VanessaE I know the horizontal is like 90 or 100 degrees 02:36 VanessaE but no clue about the vertical 02:37 VanessaE I just don't know the formula. no matter, it's not important anyway 02:44 Megaf good night 12:34 Megaf folks, we need to implement radio streaming on client side, server would send to client the stream url and then client will get stream from there 12:34 Megaf this way we could have radio on our servers!! 12:34 Megaf isnt that cool? 12:37 proller__ make pull request 12:37 Taoki RealBadAngel: I'm trying out the tonemaps, but they do not work. I put the textures in the right spot, but it's still the old behavior entirely. Textured sun and moon don't appear to work either 12:38 Taoki Tried putting the texture in various locations, same result 12:38 RealBadAngel new texture pack folder should do 12:39 RealBadAngel how have u named files? 12:39 PenguinDad Taoki: you need sun and moon textures in order to make tonemaps work 12:40 Taoki Yes. games/minetest_game/mods/default/textures/moon.png, games/minetest_game/mods/default/textures/moon_tonemap.png, games/minetest_game/mods/default/textures/sun.png, games/minetest_game/mods/default/textures/sun_tonemap.png 12:40 Taoki Tried in git/textures also, but still nothing 12:40 Taoki Yeah I got the sun / moon textures too 12:41 PenguinDad put them in textures/base/pack/ 12:41 Taoki Directly, or textures/base/pack/default/ ? 12:42 PenguinDad directly 12:42 Taoki Ok, now they do work at last. I understood I had to put them in default 12:44 Megaf proller__: is it possible to get some kind of streaming using a lua mod? 12:48 RealBadAngel taoki, looks like you have missed /pack/ part.... 12:48 Taoki right 12:49 RealBadAngel if you want to test tonemaps be aware that they work if the textures are present 12:50 RealBadAngel and for them textures shall be prepared slightly different way 12:50 RealBadAngel the best results you can get with all white textures 12:52 RealBadAngel megaf, im not sure but that should work without any additions 12:52 RealBadAngel just make a mod that plays an ogg 12:52 Megaf RealBadAngel: well, minetest supports ogg 12:53 Megaf so perhaps an ogg radio? 12:53 RealBadAngel and use streaming to ogg 12:53 RealBadAngel there are apps for that 12:53 RealBadAngel just make sure youre streaming to the file engine will use 12:54 RealBadAngel openal should do the trick 12:55 RealBadAngel a few months ago i made minetest playing some net radio broadcast 12:55 RealBadAngel so it works 12:56 PenguinDad but every client would have to download the stream :/ 12:56 RealBadAngel ofc 12:56 RealBadAngel thats client side 12:57 RealBadAngel one could even implement there youtube 12:57 RealBadAngel that could be fun 12:57 RealBadAngel hey 12:57 RealBadAngel lets make web browser :) 12:58 Anchakor you can use browser for GUI :) 12:58 RealBadAngel i mean real one 12:58 Anchakor I mean real one too 12:58 PenguinDad let's make tessertest :D 12:58 RealBadAngel so lets do it 12:59 RealBadAngel that will be real advantage over mc 12:59 Anchakor http://www.awesomium.com/ 12:59 Anchakor free open source alternative is https://code.google.com/p/chromiumembedded/ 13:00 Anchakor (which is really what awesomium is a wrapper of) 13:00 RealBadAngel i think i will have to code that terminal thingy 13:00 RealBadAngel i mean formspec element that will emulate gfx card 13:01 RealBadAngel with own memory and basic methods to draw/print/whatever 13:02 RealBadAngel so i can run there CP/M machine 13:06 Taoki How do you convert from SColor to Scolorf? I only see examples of doing it the other way around 13:20 RealBadAngel why would you need to convert that? 13:21 RealBadAngel please do use f when u can 13:21 RealBadAngel since colors are floats anyway 13:23 Taoki RealBadAngel: SColor ranges from 1 to 255 while SColorf from 0 to 1 right? 13:24 Taoki Getting a strange little bug with colors not being well which is why I was wondering 13:50 Taoki RealBadAngel: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1266 All yours to merge 13:52 Taoki http://i59.tinypic.com/2mn22hs.png 13:52 Taoki http://i59.tinypic.com/262wtwn.png 13:52 PenguinDad ~title 13:52 ShadowBot PenguinDad: That URL appears to have no HTML title. 13:52 PenguinDad ~title https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1266 13:52 ShadowBot PenguinDad: Make directional fog colors respect tonemap by MirceaKitsune · Pull Request #1266 · minetest/minetest · GitHub 14:18 Taoki RealBadAngel: Everything good with that on your end? 14:19 Anchakor why people use such terrible ad-ridden image hosting sites like tinypic? 14:20 VanessaE ads? 14:20 VanessaE use an adblocker. 14:21 VanessaE AdBlock Plus works on firefox and chrom[e|ium] and does the job well 14:22 rubenwardy +! 14:22 rubenwardy *1 14:22 VanessaE I only have like, 2 sites in my whitelist (and only because they don't work without allowing their ads) 14:23 VanessaE 14:27 Taoki Anchakor: I can't imagine a good hosting service without ads 14:28 Taoki But yeah, I use an ad blocker too... very happy I do :) 14:29 Anchakor for some reason adblock plus doesn't work in chromium incognito mode 14:34 Anchakor oh found an option to enable that 14:35 rubenwardy Anchakor: drop box 14:36 rubenwardy Any comments on Add item eat callback? ( https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1255 ) 14:39 Taoki rubenwardy: Don't see what that's useful for 14:39 Taoki The way you can do actions in on_rightclick now works fine 14:39 rubenwardy The modders obviously think so 14:40 rubenwardy It allows hunger mods to override default behaviour without having a list of foods to override. 14:40 rubenwardy eg, https://github.com/BlockMen/hud/blob/master/hunger.lua#L47 14:41 Taoki It feels like things that can be done well in Lua are being hardcoded without as much reason IMO. But dunno what to say otherwise 14:41 rubenwardy It is in lua, and it actually gets rid of a hard coded thing 14:42 rubenwardy Currently mods have to overwrite on_use (not on_rightclick) in node defs, which means they need a list of the foods to overwrite. 14:43 Taoki I thought you just make on_rightclick() remove the food item while adding health 14:43 rubenwardy on_rightclick is for placed nodes 14:43 rubenwardy on_use is things in inventory 14:43 Taoki Ah, sorry about that. Yeah on_use 14:43 Taoki Still, there's just two actions. Adding health to the player, and decreasing the item count 14:44 rubenwardy Can you please read what I say. 14:44 sapier radio streaming in a game engine ... if it only wouldn't have been a serious suggestion ... :-/ 14:45 Taoki I am, but apparently we're not understanding this well 14:45 Taoki Or I'm missing an important part 14:45 rubenwardy It would make no sense if you want to add a sound to your food in your mod. 14:45 Taoki I already proposed a patch which does that 14:45 Taoki Longer ago 14:45 sapier rubenwardy what's special benefit for on_eat callback compared to on use? 14:46 rubenwardy But it makes sense for hunger mods etc, as you are adding behaviour to another mods food 14:46 * Taoki wonders the same thing as sapier 14:46 rubenwardy sapier: you don't need to edit the item definition 14:47 rubenwardy it is minetest.register_on_item_eat, not nodedef.item_eat 14:47 sapier so you suggest adding a specialized variant of an existing callback to save a couple of lines only? 14:47 Taoki Usually, if you define a food item you add its behavior in definition 14:47 rubenwardy no existing callback 14:48 sapier on_use does exist (or something doing this called quite similar) 14:48 rubenwardy no. minetest.register_on_use does not exist. nodedef.on_use exists 14:48 sapier and? 14:48 rubenwardy This patch is like minetest.register_on_place_node for nodedef.on_place 14:48 rubenwardy It allows hunger mods to override default behaviour without having a list of foods to override. 14:49 sapier at price of causing quite some confusion 14:50 sapier who is supposed to be called first node definition or the one you suggest? 14:50 Taoki To me it feels like duplication for a small purpose 14:50 rubenwardy both 14:50 rubenwardy on_use = minetest.item_eat 14:50 sapier there's no way to be both called first by definition 14:50 rubenwardy minetest.item_eat then has a call back 14:50 rubenwardy OMFG 14:51 * Taoki scratches head... still doesn't really understand why this would be very hepuful, sorry :( 14:51 rubenwardy You either use minetest.item_eat as your on_use, or you make your own on_use 14:52 Taoki That sounds like duplicating the same thing 14:52 sapier imho item_eat is a builtin example it's not to be used to call callbacks 14:53 rubenwardy The alternative is to allow item_eat to be overridden 14:53 sapier I don't remember this to be forbidden? 14:54 rubenwardy minetest.item_eat(10) returns a function that is assigned to on_use. When that function is called, it runs the callbacks so the default eat behaviour can be overridden. 14:55 rubenwardy What 'similar functionality' are you talking about? 14:56 sapier by now I understand you don't wanna reimplement item_eat in your mod and therefore want core to provide another layer of indirection beeing quite specific to your mod. I can't imagine any other mod this feature might be usefull, tell me if you know about any 14:56 rubenwardy sapier: oops 14:56 rubenwardy who is supposed to be called first node definition or the one you suggest? 14:57 rubenwardy nodedef.on_use is called first, and the callbacks is in that 14:57 sapier ok I see I have to look precisely what code does 14:58 rubenwardy You would need to load before default to override minetest.item_eat, currently. 15:01 sapier first of all we need to find out why it was done this way, this may be either an accident or a performance optimization. In later situation adding your callback loop would be nonsense 15:01 rubenwardy Note the code is only 10 lines more. 15:01 sapier what do you wanna do in those callbacks rubenwardy? 15:02 rubenwardy hunger is the main use 15:02 rubenwardy immersive sounds could use it as well 15:04 sapier ok I guess I now understood what you wanna do. But I'd not do it this way but do it like other callbacks are done, e.g. on_globalstep 15:05 sapier that way it'd be consistent code and wouldn't add an additional callback mechanism 15:06 sapier the question is how consistent are other callbacks right now 15:06 Taoki sapier: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1266 Give this a merge please. I corrected my directional fog to work with the new tinted sun / moon (when gradients are present) 15:08 rubenwardy Here is on alternate method, sapier, Taoki: https://github.com/rubenwardy/minetest/tree/item_eat_override 15:08 rubenwardy wait... 15:09 sapier where exactly rubenwardy ;-) 15:09 rubenwardy done 15:09 rubenwardy pushed 15:09 rubenwardy https://github.com/rubenwardy/minetest/commit/965ec93cffbdce1d29fef92bf1e52c3a320592a4 15:10 * Taoki still doesn't fully get this, so best to conclude that I'm neither for nor (completely) against it 15:10 sapier that's even more inconsistent ;) 15:11 rubenwardy sapier: there is no on_globalstep 15:11 sapier can you give an example within current code where callback loop is done in lua? 15:12 sapier it is, right now callback tables are traversed by c++ code ... I'm not sure if this is best way to do it, but it's used troughout code 15:12 rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/builtin/item.lua#L293 15:12 rubenwardy register_on_placenode 15:12 sapier ok so obviously we already are inconsistent 15:13 rubenwardy on node dig too 15:13 sapier I suggest following the naming used there 15:13 rubenwardy I have 15:13 rubenwardy oh, in the for loop 15:13 sapier yes 15:14 sapier and of course check for return values being same as before 15:14 sapier return value types and number of values of course 15:14 sapier content can be different 15:18 sapier taoki I'm gonna check it later I don't have time to merge something right now anyway 15:18 Taoki ok 15:19 sfan5 huh? who highlighted me here? 16:23 Megaf lots of folks are getting this now a days 13:09:27 markveidemanis | ERROR[ConnectionSend]: con(6/1)RunTimeouts(): Peer 2 has timed out. (source=peer->timeout_counter) 16:27 Megaf PenguinDad: Yep, leaving the world in single player will cause that indeed 16:28 Megaf 13:27:20 PenguinDad | play singleplayer in latest git and look at the console when you leave the world with "exit to os" 16:43 Calinou idea: split client and server configurations into two separate .conf files 16:43 Calinou (just an idea I had, to clean up stuff) 16:43 Calinou (an unique minetest.conf can get rather huge and confusing) 16:43 Calinou would be useful for people who host server on their client PCs 16:46 sfan5 Calinou: --config mtserver.conf , problem solved 16:54 Calinou I mean by default 16:54 Calinou obviously 16:54 Calinou use different file unless specified otherwise 18:18 Megaf +1 18:25 sapier Megaf that message is due to celeron not wanting to wait for a clean shutdown in singleplayer ;) 18:26 sapier "singleplayer" is force timeouted in order to get fast exit 18:28 sapier Calinou if you split it you add another class of error, either you need to extend api to fetch config from a specific file or merge them together, ... well merged variant doesn't work as you schould be able to set settings file specific too 18:31 Calinou ah 18:34 sapier I see settings example file getting a little bit big too but I guess almost noone really has all those settings set 18:35 sapier so at least to me the benefit of splitting doesn't equalize the additional problems that may be caused 19:16 Megaf ok 19:16 Megaf so let´s keep it how it is at the moment 19:17 sapier well the only way to remove it (completely) is disable logging ;-) 19:18 RealBadAngel btw, disabling logging speeds up the game 19:19 sapier of course ;-) 19:19 Taoki heh... is logging enabled by default? 19:19 sapier only errors and actions so most likely impact will be minor 19:19 Taoki Maybe I should get rid of it then, until I need it 19:19 Taoki Ah, then it should be fine 19:20 Taoki If it visibly speeds up the engine, it likely means it logs several things each second or something 19:20 RealBadAngel imho stable releases should go with logging turned off 19:20 sapier why do you wanna hide errors? 19:20 RealBadAngel if everythin runs fine, why slow the engine down? 19:21 sapier I don't have numbers but I don't think it's gonna be a noticable difference 19:21 RealBadAngel last time i checked that it was very noticeable 19:21 sapier if everything runs fine you wont slow down anything because there wont be log entries 19:21 proller sapier, you cant understand logging problem while you not run public server 19:22 sapier well true I can't understand why someone setting up a server isn't capable of changeing loglevel to 0 19:22 RealBadAngel in case something is going wrong, allow it easily to be turned on again 19:22 Taoki RealBadAngel: Did you see my directional fog correction yet? Tested it and it works fine with your tonemaps now :) 19:22 RealBadAngel maybe an option in settings> 19:23 sapier I don't believe in disabling something that doesn't happen 19:23 RealBadAngel im telling you that this has real impact on game performance 19:23 RealBadAngel and is sometimes a bottleneck 19:24 sapier can you explain to me how something not happening can have an impact on performance? 19:25 sapier action stream is user interaction only I can't believe users gonna cause actions as fast as having an impact 19:25 RealBadAngel can you explain how the process that continously is writing "player xxx done something" and saving that to hdd could not have any impact on performance of the server? 19:26 sapier usually modern os are quite good at caching, assuming we don't open logfile in sync mode, of course that's to verify 19:26 RealBadAngel just turn it off and watch your fps :P 19:27 CiaranG Totally anecdotal, but my server is logging > 2.5GB a day, and it has no noticable impact on performance if I don't do that 19:27 sapier what loglevel do you have set CiaranG? 19:27 CiaranG no idea 19:27 CiaranG Most of that 2.5GB is coming from my mods, not the core 19:27 sapier RealBadAngel: I'm gonna try, but if you're right I'd consider disabling log to be a workaround for a real bug 19:28 CiaranG (actually, I have INFO) 19:28 RealBadAngel disabling the logs by default were already a subject for a patch 19:28 RealBadAngel quite a while ago 19:28 RealBadAngel im not sure why the idea was lost 19:29 sapier well CiaranG don't blame minetest if you change defaults to excessive logging ;-) 19:29 CiaranG I'm not blaming anything, I'm logging that stuff on purpose 19:29 CiaranG I'm just pointing out that it has no performance impact 19:29 Calinou log_level 2 is nice for servers, keep logs of actions 19:29 Calinou log_level 1 is more suited for clients, or even 0 19:32 sapier RealBadAngel: at least on singleplayer I don't have any fps difference 19:33 sapier debug_log_level = 2 is default, even less logging is 1 ... I don't recommend less then 1 because 1 should be errors only 19:34 RealBadAngel sapier on my box it was like 5-6fps more 19:34 Taoki sapier: How much does num_emerge_threads > 1 increase performance? 19:34 sapier singleplayer with default levels? 19:34 Taoki I have 8 threads for my CPU... can I set that to 8? 19:35 sapier in best case it's gonna improve map generation speed 19:35 Taoki ok. Sounds good too 19:35 sapier but only if your cpu isn't already maxxed out 19:35 sapier in this case it's gonna slow it down 19:56 Calinou it uses several threads for map generation and a few other stuff 19:56 Calinou sapier, can caves still be buggy with multiple threads? 19:56 Calinou or was this fixed? 19:56 sapier they can be buggy with a single thread too but for more details you should ask hmmmm 20:16 * Megaf will setup to identical servers to test that log thing 20:18 proller stop count performance with fps 20:19 sapier especially for servers 20:19 * Megaf limited his client FPS to 24 20:19 Megaf really, theres no need for more than that 20:20 Megaf minumum and max fps set to 24 fps, so the menu fps 20:20 sapier megaf you don't need to test log level 4 against 0 that's gonna have an effect for sure, try 1 or 2 against 0 20:20 Megaf also fixed minimum and maximum view rang to 128 20:20 Megaf sapier: I will setup and run two server, then you folks can join and thest yourselves 20:20 sapier 1 schouldn't have any effect while 2 most likely has a minor effect but not within range to measure with fps 20:20 Megaf test* 20:21 Megaf but it will take a while 20:21 Megaf 6 hours at least 20:23 VanessaE Megaf: your machine will fall over if you go to my Survival or Creative server with those settings 20:24 Megaf so you should optimize your server 20:26 VanessaE it's not the server. 20:26 VanessaE it's a client issue. 20:26 VanessaE problems in the rendering pipeline 20:40 Megaf my server makes some clients suffer because of lights, lots of lights poles and torches 20:40 proller i like 3000 view range ;) 20:40 sapier light calculation is one of most time consuming tasks in minetest 20:41 sapier it can probably improved but you can't realy fix it for current lighting mechanism 20:44 Megaf sapier: and theres not much to calculate... no reflections, no shadows.. 20:44 Megaf no refraction 20:45 sapier but light propagation is done manually 20:45 Megaf the GPU should do that 20:45 sapier not in minetest 20:46 sapier that's why I said it can't be fixed for current lighting mechanism 20:46 sapier I agree to you but that's a mayor change in engine, by now noone tried to do that 20:47 * Megaf looks at RealBadAngel 21:06 RealBadAngel server is going to calculate only light level at the node 21:06 RealBadAngel all other stuff will be removed from server's code 21:07 RealBadAngel and will be passed onto irrlicht engine 21:07 proller shut up and commit!!!! ;) 21:07 RealBadAngel thats not a change that will happen with one commit just 21:08 RealBadAngel but shaders are already pretty ready for light sources 21:08 sapier RealBadAngel: I'd start with enabling client to do light calculation on it's own while keeping server lighting for compatibility reasons 21:09 RealBadAngel https://github.com/RealBadAngel/minetest/blob/shaders/client/shaders/nodes_shader/opengl_vertex.glsl#L84 21:09 RealBadAngel shaders do already use one fixed light source 21:09 proller sapier, not you!!! 21:09 sapier you have to explayn what this is supposed to do 21:09 RealBadAngel this? 21:09 sapier why so frightened proller ? 21:09 RealBadAngel it is SUN 21:10 proller we loosing ugly lighting 8( 21:10 sapier btw did you find out why your client is broken that way? 21:10 sapier what's your download performance? can you tell the real numbers 21:10 sapier ? 21:11 proller me? 21:11 sapier well you said downloading is only a few kb on singleplayer, for me it's multiple mb so either you just did bashing again or something is different on your setup 21:12 sapier it's multiple mb for everyone else who provided feedback too 21:13 proller wait 21:13 sapier it'd not be first time for a bug to occur for a single person only but without that persons help it's next to impossible to fix it 21:18 proller ht858q 21:19 proller http://paste.org.ru/?ht858q 21:19 proller NeuromancerGame login 21:19 proller netstat -w1 -I lo0 21:19 proller speed unstable 21:20 sapier that doesn't tell anything without additional information 21:20 proller and fuckin low for local game 21:20 proller old tuned connection give me stable 3-4-5 mbps 21:20 sapier stable transmission or stable load ? that's a big difference 21:21 proller transmission 21:21 sapier proven by what netstat? 21:21 proller ?? 21:21 sapier netstat does only show load 21:21 proller what? 21:21 sapier netstat doesn't show real data successfully transmitted but only what was pumped out 21:22 proller what??? 21:22 proller i can show you freeminer/next output 21:22 sapier I'll try again ... if some udp server sends 1000mb but client will only be able to handle 100mb, load will be 1000mb but transmission only 100mb 21:23 proller and lot of errs 21:23 sapier if same server transmitts 200mb but client is capable of receiving 150 mb ...load is 200mb while transmission is 150 mb 21:23 proller STOP THIS SHIT NOW 21:23 sapier in this example later one is what you want ... but netstat only tells about load 21:25 sapier proller I wanna help you, I believe you feel it to be slower but none of the data provides really proves this, it doesn't prove the opposit either 21:27 sapier I cannot reproduce your issue any test I did shows up new implementation beeing rock solid and way faster for texture transmission. If you can provide a testcase where this isn't true I can check why this happens. 21:35 proller http://paste.org.ru/?c6h9g9 - enet 21:35 proller 2 seconds transfer 21:35 sapier I don't compare to enet 21:36 sapier as well as I don't compare enet to tcp which most likely would be 0.2s for your case 21:37 proller you can compare your shit only with full shit 21:37 proller also http transfer will be much slower 21:38 proller (in current implementation) 21:38 sapier provide a testcase and I'm gonna fix it 21:38 proller fix what? 21:38 sapier not some random numbers that could or couldn't tell something 21:38 proller bye 21:40 Megaf sapier: about the log thing again 21:40 Megaf it's not the amount of CPU power it uses/requires 21:40 Megaf and so so much about disk IO 21:40 sapier yes 21:40 Megaf the CPU can only do one thing at time 21:41 Megaf so, or it prints logs or processes player action or write something to somewhere 21:41 Megaf and here is the problem 21:41 Megaf perhaps we could delay the log or make it go in batches 21:41 sapier but as long as log activity stays withing a certain threshold I'd expect a modern os to handle this (for non sync file operation) without noticable impact to calling application 21:42 Megaf sapier: but it causes a lot of impact 21:42 sapier logfile size may have an impact too (at least to me) 22:07 VanessaE Megaf: if the CPU isn't writing that much to disk at once, the OS will already gather it in batches anyway 22:08 VanessaE it'll cache the write into memory, outside of Minetest's control, and shuffle it off to disk when it gets a chance, unless Minetest expressly tells the OS "no, write it to disk NOW" 22:09 VanessaE what I would be more worried about, from a logging standpoint, isn't the bandwidth, so much as the storage requirement. if your storage is limited (e.g. a VPS), you have to keep a close eye on the size of your logs. it's not hard for a log file to grow into the few-gigs range. 22:10 Megaf VanessaE: we can tell the same about rollback.sqlite 22:11 VanessaE yeah but rollback is one you definitely want to keep 22:11 VanessaE bbl 22:13 sapier having rollback and logfile on same disk may (in worst case) cause even more lag then summ of log and rollback 22:14 sapier e.g. if those are done the very same moment and need to be written to completely different locations on disk 22:14 sapier at least theoretically ... in practice os caching may even equalize this effect