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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-04-30

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Time Nick Message
00:03 RealBadAngel well, you were seriously adding noise to textures>
00:03 RealBadAngel ?
00:03 Taoki You mean my idea about noise on solid block vertices?
00:04 RealBadAngel yes
00:04 Taoki Well I didn't mean noise to textures. This would probably have nothing to do with textures really
00:04 Taoki I meant noise to vertices
00:04 Taoki So the ground can look rough a bit, and more realistic for who wants that
00:05 Taoki Similar to how the water shader creates waves, but of course static and with more detail
00:05 RealBadAngel well, that parallax mapping does already
00:06 Taoki Can only do it to a small extent yeah
00:06 Taoki Was thinking of this as an additional effect, for the actual surface to be bent and rough
00:06 Taoki Like this http://minecraftpremiumfree.n​et/premium/minecraft_logo.png
00:06 RealBadAngel have you saw any implementation of similar idea? some pics?
00:07 Taoki Or better, like this: http://collectionminecraft.com/wp-content/upl​oads/2014/03/minecraft-grass-block-iconimage-​from-2--minecraft-block-post-3-kquoyplt.png Excluding grass particles on top, but see the edges
00:08 Taoki I only know it's possible for shaders to deform vertices. Possibly subdivide them a bit
00:08 Taoki Water already does that as it wavers now
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00:10 Taoki http://p1.pichost.me/i/27/1497704.jpg If only something like this were possible in-game :)
00:11 Taoki ^ That's another idea of block smoothing I have in mind. See the round edges
00:11 Taoki Rounding the edges of blocks a bit felt like another nice dea ^^ But prolly harder to do... still felt like talking about it
00:13 RealBadAngel http://www.deepmesh3d.com/help/matblend.htm
00:13 RealBadAngel take a look on possible material types
00:14 Taoki http://gameslikeminecraft.ddl-it.com/​wp-content/uploads/2012/08/grass.png Ahhh... if only...
00:14 Taoki ok
00:18 RealBadAngel not possible
00:19 RealBadAngel that is made out of polygons, not flat textures
00:19 Taoki RealBadAngel: Yeah, those are some very nice material possibilities
00:19 * Taoki nods
00:27 Taoki Guess I like to think of more than is possible sometimes. don't automatically take what I say as a feature request or anything though... I'm not that crazy :P Though roughing the vertices of solid objects was an actual idea... clearly nothing urgent or important now tho
00:39 Megaf RealBadAngel: the reddish thing happens when I enable waving something
00:39 Megaf and it happens only with your branch
00:40 Megaf on normal minetest master branch I have everything waving and all shaders
00:43 Megaf RealBadAngel: just confirmed here, all shaders do work fine in minetest master branch
00:50 RealBadAngel Megaf, ive located the bug, thx
00:51 RealBadAngel i will push the changes shotly
00:51 RealBadAngel +r
00:52 Taoki RealBadAngel: Isn't a gradient map included in minetest_game by default? Was curious to change the colors and test it a bit
00:52 Taoki To see how and if it all works
00:52 Taoki I mean, for coloring the fog and all
00:53 RealBadAngel hmmm, tonemaps are used in mc
00:53 RealBadAngel for grass and lotsa other things
00:54 RealBadAngel if you mean fog i suggest using the one i made for sun
00:54 RealBadAngel this way fog and sun could have very same colors
00:54 Taoki RealBadAngel: Ok. Where can I get the image file for it? And where do I place it? Does it work automatically also, without a Lua function?
00:55 RealBadAngel hold on a sec
00:55 RealBadAngel https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=18&t=9140
00:55 RealBadAngel grab tonemaps from here
00:56 Taoki Thanks
00:56 RealBadAngel but, for tonemaps to work, you have to use textures in the first place
00:56 RealBadAngel and its automatic
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00:56 Taoki If I can get the sun and moon tonemap as a RGB color in sky.cpp, fog colors are as good as solved
00:57 RealBadAngel just put those files either in textures pack folder or /textures/default/pack
00:57 Taoki Also, texturable sun and moon mean that you can texture the sun and moon themselves, rather than them being blocks, right?
00:57 Taoki So they can be images
00:57 Taoki Are they still tonemap colored then also?
00:58 RealBadAngel if you will give sun a texture it will use it
00:58 RealBadAngel if you will put there tonemap it will be tinted also
00:58 Taoki Nice
00:58 Taoki Yeah was just curious if sun and moon can use texture images now. Good to know
00:59 RealBadAngel hold on
00:59 RealBadAngel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hubBBzh_190
00:59 Taoki Ah, cool... yes it works then
01:05 RealBadAngel yes
01:05 RealBadAngel and i think tonemap is quite good
01:05 RealBadAngel it blends nicely with dawn/dusk image
01:08 Taoki How are the tonemap colors named in the code? So I can know what to get in sky.cpp
01:08 RealBadAngel color is picked from file using some blac magic
01:09 Taoki At startup I assume, but not dynamically right?
01:09 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minet​est/blob/master/src/sky.cpp#L166
01:10 RealBadAngel dynamically
01:10 RealBadAngel depending on time of day
01:10 RealBadAngel oops, https://github.com/minetest/minet​est/blob/master/src/sky.cpp#L164
01:11 RealBadAngel at 164 offset is calculated
01:11 RealBadAngel sin is used there to make the changes faster at start
01:11 RealBadAngel then slower
01:12 Taoki m_materials[3].EmissiveColor and m_materials[4].EmissiveColor seem to be the two colors. Will see
01:13 Taoki Need to go now, will look at it tomorrow
01:13 Taoki night
01:13 RealBadAngel 3 is sun, 4 is moon
01:13 RealBadAngel cya
01:14 Megaf RealBadAngel: wheres my fix? :)
01:15 RealBadAngel about to test it, gimme 15 minutes
01:21 RealBadAngel Megaf, pushed
01:22 RealBadAngel but you will need one extra file for that
01:22 RealBadAngel lemme upload it somwhere
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01:27 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/iW5TY2F.png
01:27 RealBadAngel save it as water_surface_animated_normal.png in any textures path
01:28 RealBadAngel this file is used by water surface shader
01:31 ShadowNinja hmmmm: hexafraction was saying that he planned to do exactly that (two nodes per MapBlock, one with translucent nodes) in mosstest (a Minetest clone in Java).
01:33 hmmmm cool then, but I'd rather wait for celeron55's comment on it
01:33 hmmmm if it were viable I'm sure he would've done that
01:38 RealBadAngel since ive done shader separation and move them all to tiles
01:39 RealBadAngel thats no problem for me to introduce more scene nodes
01:39 RealBadAngel i couldnt do that before because everything were bound to tightly
01:42 RealBadAngel branch name "united" can be misleading in fact
01:43 RealBadAngel theyre unitied because theres one shadar for all the nodes
01:43 RealBadAngel but it is preconfigured for all the possible materials and drawtypes
01:43 RealBadAngel at the compile time
01:44 RealBadAngel also my latest push is about to add totally different shader, water surface one
01:46 RealBadAngel also i do have (almost) rdy lava surface shader that will use bezier curves to create lava rivers/flowing lava surfaces
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01:47 VanessaE hmmmm: celeron's comment on what, doing one node per mapblock?
01:47 hmmmm yes
01:47 RealBadAngel that wont be any good
01:47 VanessaE [04-29 19:12] <celeron55> 01:53:48 <+hmmmm> what problems are there with making a mapblock an entire node?
01:47 VanessaE [04-29 19:12] <celeron55> none, assuming you have infinite time for implementing it
01:48 hmmmm Oh
01:48 hmmmm i didn't see that
01:48 RealBadAngel what we do need is one node per type
01:48 RealBadAngel one water, one dirt etc
01:49 RealBadAngel anything else is just clusterfuck, same as we do already have
01:49 hmmmm that might fix transparency but that'd defeat the purpose
01:49 hmmmm the main purpose of doing this is to add occlusion culling and query
01:49 RealBadAngel ^^ above
01:50 hmmmm huh
01:50 hmmmm anyway I don't get what celeron means by that
01:50 hmmmm is it very difficult to implement or something?
01:50 RealBadAngel not really
01:51 VanessaE [04-29 19:12] <celeron55> or, well
01:51 VanessaE [04-29 19:13] <celeron55> you have to somehow build into it the occlusion culling and so
01:51 VanessaE [04-29 19:13] <celeron55> but it shouldn't be a big deal
01:51 VanessaE so idk
01:51 RealBadAngel in fact i could code in a few days
01:52 VanessaE I got the impression that it would be incredibly non-trivial to implement
01:52 RealBadAngel last few months for me were rather reading irrlicht docs and sample apps
01:52 VanessaE but it begs the question:  how fine-grained does the occlusion culling need to get to get the most benefit?
01:53 RealBadAngel VanessaE, in fact u shouldnt even bother about it
01:53 RealBadAngel irrlicht does everything for u
01:56 VanessaE perhaps.  I don't understand irrlicht enough to know just how much work it would have to do with a mapblock-sized irrlicht node versus, say, one node per material per mapblock
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02:00 hmmmm hmm
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02:00 hmmmm i wonder if there is a disadvantage to having too many scene nodes
02:01 VanessaE dunno
02:01 VanessaE the way I understood it when i read up on this before, a lot is better than few, but I didn't see anything that said one way or the other about any practical limits
02:04 VanessaE one per mapblock seems perfectly reasonable
02:05 VanessaE (well one per transparent/translucent/opaque/liquid, let's say)
02:05 hmmmm yeah
02:05 hmmmm anyway I'll look at it when i get the time
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02:07 VanessaE hm, with a view range of 100,  4/3 pi R ^3 makes a maximum volume of around 4188790 nodes or about 1023 mapblocks
02:07 VanessaE (if every last mapblock had non-air)
02:08 Megaf RealBadAngel: that red thing is fixed indeed, I still get 4 lines of this 23:07:14: ERROR[main]: Reading from file!
02:08 VanessaE Megaf: ignore that.
02:08 VanessaE it's not a bug, it's a diagnostic feature.
02:08 Megaf ok
02:09 Megaf and water is white
02:09 Megaf feature too?
02:09 VanessaE just a diagnostic.  ignore it.
02:11 Megaf well done RealBadAngel. Lights look pretty damn good now
02:11 VanessaE hmmmm: I don't know how to calculate the visible area from the player's FoV but I guess 20% of that figure maybe?  So even one irrlicht node per mapblock would probably barely even touch even the slowest CPU.  If there's a benefit to doing one per material type. seems like there's tons of room to do that.
02:11 Megaf everything is beautiful
02:12 Megaf everythin is on, 10 FPS at 1280x720
02:12 VanessaE RealBadAngel: btw, check lava lighting.  sources are lit differently from flowing again (in master)
02:21 VanessaE um, guys...
02:21 VanessaE Megaf: you know that issue you had with timeout messages leading to server lockouts?
02:21 VanessaE it's suddenly happening here too on one of my servers
02:22 * VanessaE updates...
02:29 VanessaE For reference, I mean errors of this nature:
02:29 VanessaE 22:20:57: ERROR[ConnectionSend]: con(5/1)RunTimeouts(): Peer 363 has timed out. (source=peer->timeout_counter)
02:30 VanessaE updated and restarted.  It responded to a SIGINT but didn't actually die after about 3 minutes waiting, so I SIGTERM'd it.
02:33 Megaf VanessaE: yep, some say they are caused by tablets
02:34 VanessaE strange, this is the first time I've seen it happen though
02:35 VanessaE well it's back now, and updated.  if it happened again I'll file an issue.
02:35 VanessaE happens*
02:35 hmmmm VanessaE:  I suppose you can model the entire viewable area as a sphere, and the view fulcrum as a rectangle projected onto that sphere
02:36 VanessaE hmmmm: yeah, that's kinda what I was going for, just to keep the math simple :P
02:36 hmmmm if you know both the vertical and horizontal FoV you can figure it out
02:36 Megaf RealBadAngel: when I enable waving water, water waves, but it turns translucid white, and when I disable waving water it turns red
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02:36 VanessaE I know the horizontal is like 90 or 100 degrees
02:36 VanessaE but no clue about the vertical
02:37 VanessaE I just don't know the formula.  no matter, it's not important anyway
02:44 Megaf good night
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12:34 Megaf folks, we need to implement radio streaming on client side, server would send to client the stream url and then client will get stream from there
12:34 Megaf this way we could have radio on our servers!!
12:34 Megaf isnt that cool?
12:37 proller__ make pull request
12:37 Taoki RealBadAngel: I'm trying out the tonemaps, but they do not work. I put the textures in the right spot, but it's still the old behavior entirely. Textured sun and moon don't appear to work either
12:38 Taoki Tried putting the texture in various locations, same result
12:38 RealBadAngel new texture pack folder should do
12:39 RealBadAngel how have u named files?
12:39 PenguinDad Taoki: you need sun and moon textures in order to make tonemaps work
12:40 Taoki Yes. games/minetest_game/mods/d​efault/textures/moon.png, games/minetest_game/mods/defau​lt/textures/moon_tonemap.png, games/minetest_game/mods/default/textures/sun.png, games/minetest_game/mods/defa​ult/textures/sun_tonemap.png
12:40 Taoki Tried in git/textures also, but still nothing
12:40 Taoki Yeah I got the sun / moon textures too
12:41 PenguinDad put them in textures/base/pack/
12:41 Taoki Directly, or textures/base/pack/default/ ?
12:42 PenguinDad directly
12:42 Taoki Ok, now they do work at last. I understood I had to put them in default
12:44 Megaf proller__: is it possible to get some kind of streaming using a lua mod?
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12:48 RealBadAngel taoki, looks like you have missed /pack/ part....
12:48 Taoki right
12:49 RealBadAngel if you want to test tonemaps be aware that they work if the textures are present
12:50 RealBadAngel and for them textures shall be prepared slightly different way
12:50 RealBadAngel the best results you can get with all white textures
12:52 RealBadAngel megaf, im not sure but that should work without any additions
12:52 RealBadAngel just make a mod that plays an ogg
12:52 Megaf RealBadAngel: well, minetest supports ogg
12:53 Megaf so perhaps an ogg radio?
12:53 RealBadAngel and use streaming to ogg
12:53 RealBadAngel there are apps for that
12:53 RealBadAngel just make sure youre streaming to the file engine will use
12:54 RealBadAngel openal should do the trick
12:55 RealBadAngel a few months ago i made minetest playing some net radio broadcast
12:55 RealBadAngel so it works
12:56 PenguinDad but every client would have to download the stream :/
12:56 RealBadAngel ofc
12:56 RealBadAngel thats client side
12:57 RealBadAngel one could even implement there youtube
12:57 RealBadAngel that could be fun
12:57 RealBadAngel hey
12:57 RealBadAngel lets make web browser :)
12:58 Anchakor you can use browser for GUI :)
12:58 RealBadAngel i mean real one
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12:58 Anchakor I mean real one too
12:58 PenguinDad let's make tessertest :D
12:58 RealBadAngel so lets do it
12:59 RealBadAngel that will be real advantage over mc
12:59 Anchakor http://www.awesomium.com/
12:59 Anchakor free open source alternative is https://code.google.com/p/chromiumembedded/
13:00 Anchakor (which is really what awesomium is a wrapper of)
13:00 RealBadAngel i think i will have to code that terminal thingy
13:00 RealBadAngel i mean formspec element that will emulate gfx card
13:01 RealBadAngel with own memory and basic methods to draw/print/whatever
13:02 RealBadAngel so i can run there CP/M machine
13:06 Taoki How do you convert from SColor to Scolorf? I only see examples of doing it the other way around
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13:20 RealBadAngel why would you need to convert that?
13:21 RealBadAngel please do use f when u can
13:21 RealBadAngel since colors are floats anyway
13:23 Taoki RealBadAngel: SColor ranges from 1 to 255 while SColorf from 0 to 1 right?
13:24 Taoki Getting a strange little bug with colors not being well which is why I was wondering
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13:50 Taoki RealBadAngel: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1266 All yours to merge
13:52 Taoki http://i59.tinypic.com/2mn22hs.png
13:52 Taoki http://i59.tinypic.com/262wtwn.png
13:52 PenguinDad ~title
13:52 ShadowBot PenguinDad: That URL appears to have no HTML title.
13:52 PenguinDad ~title https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1266
13:52 ShadowBot PenguinDad: Make directional fog colors respect tonemap by MirceaKitsune · Pull Request #1266 · minetest/minetest · GitHub
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14:18 Taoki RealBadAngel: Everything good with that on your end?
14:19 Anchakor why people use such terrible ad-ridden image hosting sites like tinypic?
14:20 VanessaE ads?
14:20 VanessaE use an adblocker.
14:21 VanessaE AdBlock Plus works on firefox and chrom[e|ium] and does the job well
14:22 rubenwardy +!
14:22 rubenwardy *1
14:22 VanessaE I only have like, 2 sites in my whitelist (and only because they don't work without allowing their ads)
14:23 VanessaE </offtopic>
14:27 Taoki Anchakor: I can't imagine a good hosting service without ads
14:28 Taoki But yeah, I use an ad blocker too... very happy I do :)
14:29 Anchakor for some reason adblock plus doesn't work in chromium incognito mode
14:34 Anchakor oh found an option to enable that
14:35 rubenwardy Anchakor: drop box
14:36 rubenwardy Any comments on Add item eat callback? ( https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1255 )
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14:39 Taoki rubenwardy: Don't see what that's useful for
14:39 Taoki The way you can do actions in on_rightclick now works fine
14:39 rubenwardy The modders obviously think so
14:40 rubenwardy It allows hunger mods to override default behaviour without having a list of foods to override.
14:40 rubenwardy eg, https://github.com/BlockMen/h​ud/blob/master/hunger.lua#L47
14:41 Taoki It feels like things that can be done well in Lua are being hardcoded without as much reason IMO. But dunno what to say otherwise
14:41 rubenwardy It is in lua, and it actually gets rid of a hard coded thing
14:42 rubenwardy Currently mods have to overwrite on_use (not on_rightclick) in node defs, which means they need a list of the foods to overwrite.
14:43 Taoki I thought you just make on_rightclick() remove the food item while adding health
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14:43 rubenwardy on_rightclick is for placed nodes
14:43 rubenwardy on_use is things in inventory
14:43 Taoki Ah, sorry about that. Yeah on_use
14:43 Taoki Still, there's just two actions. Adding health to the player, and decreasing the item count
14:44 rubenwardy Can you please read what I say.
14:44 sapier radio streaming in a game engine ... if it only wouldn't have been a serious suggestion ... :-/
14:45 Taoki I am, but apparently we're not understanding this well
14:45 Taoki Or I'm missing an important part
14:45 rubenwardy It would make no sense if you want to add a sound to your food in your mod.
14:45 Taoki I already proposed a patch which does that
14:45 Taoki Longer ago
14:45 sapier rubenwardy what's special benefit for on_eat callback compared to on use?
14:46 rubenwardy But it makes sense for hunger mods etc, as you are adding behaviour to another mods food
14:46 * Taoki wonders the same thing as sapier
14:46 rubenwardy sapier: you don't need to edit the item definition
14:47 rubenwardy it is minetest.register_on_item_eat, not nodedef.item_eat
14:47 sapier so you suggest adding a specialized variant of an existing callback to save a couple of lines only?
14:47 Taoki Usually, if you define a food item you add its behavior in definition
14:47 rubenwardy no existing callback
14:48 sapier on_use does exist (or something doing this called quite similar)
14:48 rubenwardy no. minetest.register_on_use does not exist.     nodedef.on_use exists
14:48 sapier and?
14:48 rubenwardy This patch is like minetest.register_on_place_node for nodedef.on_place
14:48 rubenwardy <rubenwardy> It allows hunger mods to override default behaviour without having a list of foods to override.
14:49 sapier at price of causing quite some confusion
14:50 sapier who is supposed to be called first node definition or the one you suggest?
14:50 Taoki To me it feels like duplication for a small purpose
14:50 rubenwardy both
14:50 rubenwardy on_use  = minetest.item_eat
14:50 sapier there's no way to be both called first by definition
14:50 rubenwardy minetest.item_eat then has a call back
14:50 rubenwardy OMFG
14:51 * Taoki scratches head... still doesn't really understand why this would be very hepuful, sorry :(
14:51 rubenwardy You either use minetest.item_eat as your on_use, or you make your own on_use
14:52 Taoki That sounds like duplicating the same thing
14:52 sapier imho item_eat is a builtin example it's not to be used to call callbacks
14:53 rubenwardy The alternative is to allow item_eat to be overridden
14:53 sapier I don't remember this to be forbidden?
14:54 rubenwardy minetest.item_eat(10) returns a function that is assigned to on_use. When that function is called, it runs the callbacks so the default eat behaviour can be overridden.
14:55 rubenwardy What 'similar functionality' are you talking about?
14:56 sapier by now I understand you don't wanna reimplement item_eat in your mod and therefore want core to provide another layer of indirection beeing quite specific to your mod. I can't imagine any other mod this feature might be usefull, tell me if you know about any
14:56 rubenwardy sapier: oops
14:56 rubenwardy <sapier> who is supposed to be called first node definition or the one you suggest?
14:57 rubenwardy nodedef.on_use is called first, and the callbacks is in that
14:57 sapier ok I see I have to look precisely what code does
14:58 rubenwardy You would need to load before default to override minetest.item_eat, currently.
15:01 sapier first of all we need to find out why it was done this way, this may be either an accident or a performance optimization. In later situation adding your callback loop would be nonsense
15:01 rubenwardy Note the code is only 10 lines more.
15:01 sapier what do you wanna do in those callbacks rubenwardy?
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15:02 rubenwardy hunger is the main use
15:02 rubenwardy immersive sounds could use it as well
15:04 sapier ok I guess I now understood what you wanna do. But I'd not do it this way but do it like other callbacks are done, e.g. on_globalstep
15:05 sapier that way it'd be consistent code and wouldn't add an additional callback mechanism
15:06 sapier the question is how consistent are other callbacks right now
15:06 Taoki sapier: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1266 Give this a merge please. I corrected my directional fog to work with the new tinted sun / moon (when gradients are present)
15:08 rubenwardy Here is on alternate method, sapier, Taoki: https://github.com/rubenwardy/m​inetest/tree/item_eat_override
15:08 rubenwardy wait...
15:09 sapier where exactly rubenwardy ;-)
15:09 rubenwardy done
15:09 rubenwardy pushed
15:09 rubenwardy https://github.com/rubenwardy/minetest/comm​it/965ec93cffbdce1d29fef92bf1e52c3a320592a4
15:10 * Taoki still doesn't fully get this, so best to conclude that I'm neither for nor (completely) against it
15:10 sapier that's even more inconsistent ;)
15:11 rubenwardy sapier: there is no on_globalstep
15:11 sapier can you give an example within current code where callback loop is done in lua?
15:12 sapier it is, right now callback tables are traversed by c++ code ... I'm not sure if this is best way to do it, but it's used troughout code
15:12 rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/blob/master/builtin/item.lua#L293
15:12 rubenwardy register_on_placenode
15:12 sapier ok so obviously we already are inconsistent
15:13 rubenwardy on node dig too
15:13 sapier I suggest following the naming used there
15:13 rubenwardy I have
15:13 rubenwardy oh, in the for loop
15:13 sapier yes
15:14 sapier and of course check for return values being same as before
15:14 sapier return value types and number of values of course
15:14 sapier content can be different
15:18 sapier taoki I'm gonna check it later I don't have time to merge something right now anyway
15:18 Taoki ok
15:19 sfan5 huh? who highlighted me here?
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16:23 Megaf lots of folks are getting this now a days 13:09:27  markveidemanis | ERROR[ConnectionSend]: con(6/1)RunTimeouts(): Peer 2 has timed out. (source=peer->timeout_counter)
16:27 Megaf PenguinDad: Yep, leaving the world in single player will cause that indeed
16:28 Megaf 13:27:20      PenguinDad | play singleplayer in latest git and look at the console when you leave the world with "exit to os"
16:43 Calinou idea: split client and server configurations into two separate .conf files
16:43 Calinou (just an idea I had, to clean up stuff)
16:43 Calinou (an unique minetest.conf can get rather huge and confusing)
16:43 Calinou would be useful for people who host server on their client PCs
16:46 sfan5 Calinou: --config mtserver.conf , problem solved
16:54 Calinou I mean by default
16:54 Calinou obviously
16:54 Calinou use different file unless specified otherwise
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18:18 Megaf +1
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18:25 sapier Megaf that message is due to celeron not wanting to wait for a clean shutdown in singleplayer ;)
18:26 sapier "singleplayer" is force timeouted in order to get fast exit
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18:28 sapier Calinou if you split it you add another class of error, either you need to extend api to fetch config from a specific file or merge them together, ... well merged variant doesn't work as you schould be able to set settings file specific too
18:31 Calinou ah
18:34 sapier I see settings example file getting a little bit big too but I guess almost noone really has all those settings set
18:35 sapier so at least to me the benefit of splitting doesn't equalize the additional problems that may be caused
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19:16 Megaf ok
19:16 Megaf so let´s keep it how it is at the moment
19:17 sapier well the only way to remove it (completely) is disable logging ;-)
19:18 RealBadAngel btw, disabling logging speeds up the game
19:19 sapier of course ;-)
19:19 Taoki heh... is logging enabled by default?
19:19 sapier only errors and actions so most likely impact will be minor
19:19 Taoki Maybe I should get rid of it then, until I need it
19:19 Taoki Ah, then it should be fine
19:20 Taoki If it visibly speeds up the engine, it likely means it logs several things each second or something
19:20 RealBadAngel imho stable releases should go with logging turned off
19:20 sapier why do you wanna hide errors?
19:20 RealBadAngel if everythin runs fine, why slow the engine down?
19:21 sapier I don't have numbers but I don't think it's gonna be a noticable difference
19:21 RealBadAngel last time i checked that it was very noticeable
19:21 sapier if everything runs fine you wont slow down anything because there wont be log entries
19:21 proller sapier, you cant understand logging problem while you not run public server
19:22 sapier well true I can't understand why someone setting up a server isn't capable of changeing loglevel to 0
19:22 RealBadAngel in case something is going wrong, allow it easily to be turned on again
19:22 Taoki RealBadAngel: Did you see my directional fog correction yet? Tested it and it works fine with your tonemaps now :)
19:22 RealBadAngel maybe an option in settings>
19:23 sapier I don't believe in disabling something that doesn't happen
19:23 RealBadAngel im telling you that this has real impact on game performance
19:23 RealBadAngel and is sometimes a bottleneck
19:24 sapier can you explain to me how something not happening can have an impact on performance?
19:25 sapier action stream is user interaction only I can't believe users gonna cause actions as fast as having an impact
19:25 RealBadAngel can you explain how the process that continously is writing "player xxx done something" and saving that to hdd could not have any impact on performance of the server?
19:26 sapier usually modern os are quite good at caching, assuming we don't open logfile in sync mode, of course that's to verify
19:26 RealBadAngel just turn it off and watch your fps :P
19:27 CiaranG Totally anecdotal, but my server is logging > 2.5GB a day, and it has no noticable impact on performance if I don't do that
19:27 sapier what loglevel do you have set CiaranG?
19:27 CiaranG no idea
19:27 CiaranG Most of that 2.5GB is coming from my mods, not the core
19:27 sapier RealBadAngel: I'm gonna try, but if you're right I'd consider disabling log to be a workaround for a real bug
19:28 CiaranG (actually, I have INFO)
19:28 RealBadAngel disabling the logs by default were already a subject for a patch
19:28 RealBadAngel quite a while ago
19:28 RealBadAngel im not sure why the idea was lost
19:29 sapier well CiaranG don't blame minetest if you change defaults to excessive logging ;-)
19:29 CiaranG I'm not blaming anything, I'm logging that stuff on purpose
19:29 CiaranG I'm just pointing out that it has no performance impact
19:29 Calinou log_level 2 is nice for servers, keep logs of actions
19:29 Calinou log_level 1 is more suited for clients, or even 0
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19:32 sapier RealBadAngel:  at least on singleplayer I don't have any fps difference
19:33 sapier debug_log_level = 2 is default, even less logging is 1 ... I don't recommend less then 1 because 1 should be errors only
19:34 RealBadAngel sapier on my box it was like 5-6fps more
19:34 Taoki sapier: How much does num_emerge_threads > 1 increase performance?
19:34 sapier singleplayer with default levels?
19:34 Taoki I have 8 threads for my CPU... can I set that to 8?
19:35 sapier in best case it's gonna improve map generation speed
19:35 Taoki ok. Sounds good too
19:35 sapier but only if your cpu isn't already maxxed out
19:35 sapier in this case it's gonna slow it down
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19:56 Calinou it uses several threads for map generation and a few other stuff
19:56 Calinou sapier, can caves still be buggy with multiple threads?
19:56 Calinou or was this fixed?
19:56 sapier they can be buggy with a single thread too but for more details you should ask hmmmm
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20:16 * Megaf will setup to identical servers to test that log thing
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20:18 proller stop count performance with fps
20:19 sapier especially for servers
20:19 * Megaf limited his client FPS to 24
20:19 Megaf really, theres no need for more than that
20:20 Megaf minumum and max fps set to 24 fps, so the menu fps
20:20 sapier megaf you don't need to test log level 4 against 0 that's gonna have an effect for sure, try 1 or 2 against 0
20:20 Megaf also fixed minimum and maximum view rang to 128
20:20 Megaf sapier: I will setup and run two server, then you folks can join and thest yourselves
20:20 sapier 1 schouldn't have any effect while 2 most likely has a minor effect but not within range to measure with fps
20:20 Megaf test*
20:21 Megaf but it will take a while
20:21 Megaf 6 hours at least
20:23 VanessaE Megaf: your machine will fall over if you go to my Survival or Creative server with those settings
20:24 Megaf so you should optimize your server
20:26 VanessaE it's not the server.
20:26 VanessaE it's a client issue.
20:26 VanessaE problems in the rendering pipeline
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20:40 Megaf my server makes some clients suffer because of lights, lots of lights poles and torches
20:40 proller i like 3000 view range ;)
20:40 sapier light calculation is one of most time consuming tasks in minetest
20:41 sapier it can probably improved but you can't realy fix it for current lighting mechanism
20:44 Megaf sapier: and theres not much to calculate... no reflections, no shadows..
20:44 Megaf no refraction
20:45 sapier but light propagation is done manually
20:45 Megaf the GPU should do that
20:45 sapier not in minetest
20:46 sapier that's why I said it can't be fixed for current lighting mechanism
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20:46 sapier I agree to you but that's a mayor change in engine, by now noone tried to do that
20:47 * Megaf looks at RealBadAngel
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21:06 RealBadAngel server is going to calculate only light level at the node
21:06 RealBadAngel all other stuff will be removed from server's code
21:07 RealBadAngel and will be passed onto irrlicht engine
21:07 proller shut up and commit!!!! ;)
21:07 RealBadAngel thats not a change that will happen with one commit just
21:08 RealBadAngel but shaders are already pretty ready for light sources
21:08 sapier RealBadAngel: I'd start with enabling client to do light calculation on it's own while keeping server lighting for compatibility reasons
21:09 RealBadAngel https://github.com/RealBadAngel/min​etest/blob/shaders/client/shaders/n​odes_shader/opengl_vertex.glsl#L84
21:09 RealBadAngel shaders do already use one fixed light source
21:09 proller sapier, not you!!!
21:09 sapier you have to explayn what this is supposed to do
21:09 RealBadAngel this?
21:09 sapier why so frightened proller ?
21:09 RealBadAngel it is SUN
21:10 proller we loosing ugly lighting 8(
21:10 sapier btw did you find out why your client is broken that way?
21:10 sapier what's your download performance? can you tell the real numbers
21:10 sapier ?
21:11 proller me?
21:11 sapier well you said downloading is only a few kb on singleplayer, for me it's multiple mb so either you just did bashing again or something is different on your setup
21:12 sapier it's multiple mb for everyone else who provided feedback too
21:13 proller wait
21:13 sapier it'd not be first time for a bug to occur for a single person only but without that persons help it's next to impossible to fix it
21:18 proller ht858q
21:19 proller http://paste.org.ru/?ht858q
21:19 proller NeuromancerGame  login
21:19 proller netstat -w1 -I lo0
21:19 proller speed unstable
21:20 sapier that doesn't tell anything without additional information
21:20 proller and fuckin low for local game
21:20 proller old tuned connection give me stable 3-4-5 mbps
21:20 sapier stable transmission or stable load ? that's a big difference
21:21 proller transmission
21:21 sapier proven by what netstat?
21:21 proller ??
21:21 sapier netstat does only show load
21:21 proller what?
21:21 sapier netstat doesn't show real data successfully transmitted but only what was pumped out
21:22 proller what???
21:22 proller i can show you freeminer/next output
21:22 sapier I'll try again ... if some udp server sends 1000mb but client will only be able to handle 100mb, load will be 1000mb but transmission only 100mb
21:23 proller and lot of errs
21:23 sapier if same server transmitts 200mb but client is capable of receiving 150 mb ...load is 200mb  while transmission is 150 mb
21:23 proller STOP THIS SHIT NOW
21:23 sapier in this example later one is what you want ... but netstat only tells about load
21:25 sapier proller I wanna help you, I believe you feel it to be slower but none of the data provides really proves this, it doesn't prove the opposit either
21:27 sapier I cannot reproduce your issue any test I did shows up new implementation beeing rock solid and way faster for texture transmission. If you can provide a testcase where this isn't true I can check why this happens.
21:35 proller http://paste.org.ru/?c6h9g9 - enet
21:35 proller 2 seconds transfer
21:35 sapier I don't compare to enet
21:36 sapier as well as I don't compare enet to tcp which most likely would be 0.2s for your case
21:37 proller you can compare your shit only with full shit
21:37 proller also http transfer will be much slower
21:38 proller (in current implementation)
21:38 sapier provide a testcase and I'm gonna fix it
21:38 proller fix what?
21:38 sapier not some random numbers that could or couldn't tell something
21:38 proller bye
21:40 Megaf sapier: about the log thing again
21:40 Megaf it's not the amount of CPU power it uses/requires
21:40 Megaf and so so much about disk IO
21:40 sapier yes
21:40 Megaf the CPU can only do one thing at time
21:41 Megaf so, or it prints logs or processes player action or write something to somewhere
21:41 Megaf and here is the problem
21:41 Megaf perhaps we could delay the log or make it go in batches
21:41 sapier but as long as log activity stays withing a certain threshold I'd expect a modern os to handle this (for non sync file operation) without noticable impact to calling application
21:42 Megaf sapier: but it causes a lot of impact
21:42 sapier logfile size may have an impact too (at least to me)
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22:07 VanessaE Megaf: if the CPU isn't writing that much to disk at once, the OS will already gather it in batches anyway
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22:08 VanessaE it'll cache the write into memory, outside of Minetest's control, and shuffle it off to disk when it gets a chance, unless Minetest expressly tells the OS "no, write it to disk NOW"
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22:09 VanessaE what I would be more worried about, from a logging standpoint, isn't the bandwidth, so much as the storage requirement.  if your storage is limited (e.g. a VPS), you have to keep a close eye on the size of your logs.  it's not hard for a log file to grow into the few-gigs range.
22:10 Megaf VanessaE: we can tell the same about rollback.sqlite
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22:11 VanessaE yeah but rollback is one you definitely want to keep
22:11 VanessaE bbl
22:13 sapier having rollback and logfile on same disk may (in worst case) cause even more lag then summ of log and rollback
22:14 sapier e.g. if those are done the very same moment and need to be written to completely different locations on disk
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22:14 sapier at least theoretically ... in practice os caching may even equalize this effect
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