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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-01-29

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Time Nick Message
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00:47 VanessaE can we PLEASE do something about the constant re-re-re-re-re-[...]-rewriting of player files?
00:48 us_0gb That would be nice.
00:48 VanessaE I've got almost 24,000 of the fucking things between five servers now on my machine.
00:48 us_0gb Ooh, that can't be easy on the drives.
00:48 VanessaE do they really *ALL* need to be constantly rewritten all the time?
00:49 VanessaE us_0gb: I've got a constant 3MB/sec write going on my disk now, which is not doing my server's performance any favors.
00:49 kahrl uh, that shouldn't happen if you are running 6f6f289db4 or later
00:50 VanessaE I am past that commit,
00:50 VanessaE but something's eating disk bandwidth for breakfast
00:51 VanessaE even when the servers are at a fairly low point (read:  less than 5 users between them all)
00:51 kahrl I used inotifywait to verify that the commit fixed it
00:51 VanessaE ok so maybe player files aren't being rewritten then.  something surely is.
00:51 kahrl then again, I'm not running many mods
00:52 us_0gb Could it be the map file?
00:52 VanessaE us_0gb: I would blame the map file if not for this:  http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/va​nessa/hobbies/minetest/stats.html
00:53 VanessaE look at say 0200 to 0500 or so.  notice how few users there were during that time
00:53 VanessaE but notice the disk usage?
00:53 VanessaE it's constant.
00:53 VanessaE and atop blames minetet.
00:53 VanessaE minetest*
00:54 VanessaE can a mod be doing this somehow?
00:54 VanessaE (and if so, why isn't it causing the server in question to lag?)
00:55 kahrl I don't think a mod can do it but I'm not sure
00:55 us_0gb It might be worth shutting down the worlds, backing them up, and running them all as minetest_game to rule out module issues.
00:55 kahrl but if it did, you wouldn't notice because, well, it used to write all player files anyway up to 6f6f289db4
00:55 VanessaE us_0gb: two of the servers DO run minetest_game.
00:56 VanessaE (one heavily modded, one barely so)
00:56 us_0gb The heavily-modded one doesn't count for the purposes of the experiment. THe other might.
00:57 VanessaE the lightly-modded one is my so-called "Almost Vanilla" one, and it uses nothing that could conceivably do this
00:57 us_0gb It might only take one module in one of the worlds. Then again, I have no idea what is going on here.
00:57 VanessaE and in fact it's the most popular of the 6.
00:59 us_0gb I find that very surprising. The one I hear the most talk about is the fully-loaded creative server.
01:01 kahrl VanessaE: try this to gather some initial data: https://gist.github.com/kahrl/8679721
01:02 VanessaE actually I might know what it is.
01:04 Sokomine i prefer the fully-loaded creative and survival servers as well. guess the reason why there are so many players on vanessas vanilla server is that it has way less media data and players do not time out
01:04 VanessaE lemme see if what I just did fixed it first.
01:05 * VanessaE waits for her stats scripts to collect some data...
01:07 VanessaE yep, I think that did it.
01:07 ShadowNinja The server keeps all files loaded and iterates over every file in the players directory to save each player file, so even if only changes are saved you are still using a lot of disk, mostly reading though.
01:07 VanessaE It was PilzAdam's stats mod.
01:08 VanessaE which he kept hocking me a chinik to install.  fucking thing was sitting there rewriting its stats files constantly.  For all six servers.  generating 3.5 MB/sec of disk traffic.
01:08 VanessaE for a 170K log file I think it was
01:09 ShadowNinja He uses timer and timer2, and confuses them.  So instead of rewriting every 30 steps (3 seconds) it writes every step after the first 30.
01:10 ShadowNinja Removeing all timer2 lines except the last one and changing that to timer should fix it.
01:10 ShadowNinja -e
01:13 ShadowNinja https://github.com/PilzAdam/stats/pull/1
01:18 VanessaE well one thing's for sure;
01:18 VanessaE my server must be DAMNED fast if it was able to keep up with THAT much disk traffic :D
02:15 xyz til 3mb/s is considered much disk traffic
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09:35 proller VanessaE, you know, where player files problem already fixed ;)
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12:27 VanessaE proller: if you'd read the log, you'd notice the problem was actually one of PilzAdam's mods doing wrong things, and that the "player files problem" HAS been fixed.
12:27 proller no 8)
12:28 VanessaE no, what?
12:31 VanessaE xyz: I wouldn't have figured 3 (well, a bit over 3.5 actually) MB/sec was a lot of traffic, but I have to guess the issue stems from seek times in this case - 6 files being rewritten 5x/sec (or 10x/sec, I forget what the server step is) and competing with map loading/saving, player file loads/saves, media loads, and the other stuff my server has to do.
12:31 xyz yea that was stupid
12:31 xyz the bug
12:31 VanessaE spinning rust can get pretty damn slow when you're slamming the heads back and forth a lot :)
12:32 proller all player files still saved in every save step
12:32 proller * in mt
12:32 VanessaE proller: not according to the time stamps in my files.
12:32 xyz BUILDCRAFT MAKES ITS GLORIOUS RETURN
12:32 VanessaE xyz: oh?
12:32 xyz http://www.playstarz.com/
12:32 VanessaE ha!
12:33 VanessaE they're gonna have a hard time being found in a search, I think
12:34 VanessaE I went looking just yesterday, hoping to find at least an outdated link or something (I don't have a copy of the client, and needed to try something)... kept finding nothing minecraft-related stuff for the mods (?) of those names.
12:35 VanessaE or something like that, I'm not entirely sure what they were but they weren't the minetest forks anyway
12:37 xyz could contact their domain or hosting provider
12:38 xyz or call the guy since there's some phone in whois output
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19:35 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1116 any comments?
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19:51 ShadowNinja sapier: How does it work with old servers/clients?
19:51 sapier no major issues
19:52 sapier worst thing to happen is a old client may have to connect twice on media change at server
19:53 sapier in exchange client disconnect, intitialization, reconnect and join is quite better
20:01 ShadowNinja The server will only accept packets smaller than or equal to 1500 bytes?
20:02 sapier right now it will only accept packets < 1000 bytes
20:02 sapier I increased this to 1500 as this is the minimal required packet size to be compliant to ipv6 standard
20:03 ShadowNinja It should accept <= -1.  That way you can add maximum packet size detection in the future and send with that size.
20:03 sapier no
20:03 sapier the size is limited by the receive buffer which has to have a fixed size
20:04 sapier and I don't think there will be a ipv8 anytime soon ;-)
20:04 sapier and still we want to get rid of this protocol in mid to long term
20:05 ShadowNinja L"Sorry, too many concurrent connects try again in a few minutes." --> L"Sorry, too many people are connecting at the same time.  Try again in a few minutes."
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20:06 sapier yes that's very important
20:06 ShadowNinja You also mix "x<<y" and "x << y".
20:07 sapier where?
20:07 ShadowNinja Oh, and if braces on their own lines.  The line right above that DenyAccess.
20:07 proller limiting connecting people - very strange
20:08 sapier no quick fix for broken texture handling ... you should understand it as you are that scared about code changes ;-)
20:09 sapier actually server should load textures at max once, but in fact server creates a copy of all textures for each request of client
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20:10 ShadowNinja That should definitely be fixed.  Does it free them on disco?
20:12 sapier it frees them as soon as they're sent but do a simultaneous connect of 20 clients to a server with 200mb textures ... --> 4gb memory at once
20:13 ShadowNinja That's not so bad then.
20:13 ShadowNinja http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/va​nessa/hobbies/minetest/stats.html Looks like there's a mem leak somewhere...  Unless mods could be doing that?
20:14 sapier could be loaded blocks too
20:15 sapier I'm not sure about it but I think mapblocks aren't unloaded if not necessary ... but I'm not that used to mapping code maybe someone else can answer this question
20:19 sapier but it's at least suspicious enough to do further investigations
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20:33 sapier proller I've got a strange issue with nohead clients, I remember them moving around, but they don't do this any more. do you have any idea how the "moving" did work?
20:34 proller random input?
20:34 proller where is servers with 200mb textures?
20:35 sapier where to get random input?
20:36 xyz --random-input
20:36 proller sapier, do not fix imagined issues
20:36 sapier really? *g* funny ...
20:37 sapier vanessaE's hdx 256 mb texture pack is about 180 mb on her full game, it's about 5 min downloading so this is far from unrealistic to have at a server
20:37 proller it one server vwith average 0 players
20:38 proller you want to make problems to clients of all other servers
20:38 sapier yea ok with 0 players download may take about 7-10 minutes true
20:39 sapier and noone needs more then 640kb memory as bill gates said years ago ;-P
20:40 VanessaE bill gates never said that :P
20:40 proller every servers have 8-64G memory
20:41 xyz max_concurrent_joins that reta^W stupid IMO
20:41 xyz s/that/that's/
20:41 xyz esp. the default limit set to 3
20:42 proller need set it to 1 !
20:42 xyz zero
20:43 sapier ok wait
20:44 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1116 any >>>USEFULL<<< comments?
20:44 sapier forgit I need to be very very very precise in here
20:46 xyz yea what's non-constructive in my comment?
20:46 xyz it's stupid that you set max_concurrent_joins to 3
20:46 VanessaE and for the record, NONE of my servers use big texture packs like that one.  They're all at the defaults that come with their respective games/mods.
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20:47 xyz it's stupid because it's only reasonable for servers that have 200 mb texture packs, 20 simultaneous client connecting to it and less than 4 gb of ram
20:47 xyz but you limit it for everybody
20:47 sapier1 it's a configurable setting
20:47 sapier1 not a limit
20:47 xyz its default is 3
20:47 xyz that's unreasonable
20:48 xyz you wanted comments, here they are
20:48 sapier1 and it's just a limit for simultaneous connect!
20:48 xyz tbh I think it should be turned off by default
20:48 xyz well what else could it be?
20:48 sapier1 in practice you wont realize that limit very often
20:48 xyz you just said "minetest will never get popular"
20:48 sapier1 but I dont care about the number anyway
20:49 xyz if you don't care about the number don't write the number
20:49 xyz why did you write 3?
20:49 xyz what was the reason?
20:49 sapier1 so if you think 2000000 is ok I set it to that value too
20:49 VanessaE sapier1: I think the point here is that the default limit should either be so insanely high as to be essentially non-existent, or it should at least be relatively high anyway
20:49 VanessaE and that it can be *lowered* if it turns out to be a problem for a given piece of hardware.
20:50 sapier1 because I had to set some value and if you don't need to download textures clients don't stay in "connecting" state for very long
20:50 VanessaE I would guess, based on my own stats, that a limit of around 20 for this particular variable is more reasonable
20:50 xyz yes as I said I think it should be disabled by default
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20:50 VanessaE (if not effectively disabled)
20:51 sapier1 VanessaE especially you are very lucky noone did attack your servers by now it'd be quite easy to kill em
20:51 VanessaE indeed so
20:51 VanessaE however OVH has some kind of DDoS protection in place, or so they say
20:52 xyz haha
20:52 sapier1 your default game server could allocate more then 1.5GB ram at once ... and it's only the most simple one
20:52 VanessaE nevertheless, your idea is a good one in general
20:52 xyz hey
20:52 xyz i like it how you care about memory
20:52 xyz yet you completely ignored my bug report
20:52 sapier1 that ddos protection wont have any effect as client doesn't need to send a lot of packets
20:52 xyz the one where you make server allocate a lot of ram
20:53 sapier1 I don't make server allocate ram that code is in there for ages
20:53 xyz yeah well
20:53 sapier1 you could do this with ANY minetest server out there
20:54 xyz wow!
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20:54 sapier1 I wont add a "disable" as I don't see a reason to add that complexity, are you fine with 1000 as default?
20:54 xyz probably
20:55 xyz the other question is what's the point of this setting if no one is going to use it
20:55 xyz anyway, didn't reviewed the code, you'll have to find someone else to do that
20:55 Calinou VanessaE, their DDoS protection is "shut up and shut down your server"
20:55 Calinou OVH has a track record of doing this :P
20:55 VanessaE heh
20:55 VanessaE well I don't plan to rely on it anyway :P
20:56 sapier1 VannessaE how mad would you be at me if I crash your server ?
20:56 VanessaE erm
20:56 xyz that's so childish
20:56 VanessaE well ask the 27 users who are on right now :P
20:57 xyz what are you trying to prove?
20:57 xyz that it's easy to DoS mt server?
20:57 sapier1 I can remove it too but I don't wanna hear complains about "that bad guy crashed my server" later
20:57 xyz your patch won't fix it
20:57 xyz yeah sure
20:57 xyz well I honestly don't care much
20:57 sapier1 and right now someone wouldn't even have to do an attack on purpose
20:57 xyz proller: make sure to revert this when merging btw
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21:24 ShadowNinja max_concurrent_joins is the people downloading media at the same time, not the number of people on the server.  I think about 8 is reasonable.
21:32 ShadowNinja Is there a way for mods to get the server's version?
21:33 sapier1 I think this wasn't added in favor of feature support flags
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21:40 xyz ShadowNinja: i know right? we already have max_players
21:40 xyz this doesn't make the limit less stupid
21:41 xyz anyway now it feels like i'm only arguing without doing anything so let's let someone else decide if we need it
21:43 sapier1 right now I don't see anyone who likes it. Imho it would harden servers to a quite simple sort of attack but guess hardening is as popular as security in minetest community ;-P
21:44 proller xyz one big 1000 lines conflict expected ;(
21:45 sapier1 I don't care about freeminer conflicts proller you did fork it's your issue ;-P
21:46 proller no problem if conflicts good useful code
21:46 proller but if it remix and fighting with imagined problems..
21:47 sapier1 It's your problem if you wanna wait till a bug really causes a problem instead of fixing it before
21:48 proller 01:48:27: ERROR[main]: Fatal error n=6600 : not enough memory
21:49 proller hellp from mobf
21:49 proller hello
21:49 sapier1 did you allow a client to fly along whole map within 20 seconds again?
21:49 proller no
21:50 sapier1 why do you think this is a mobf issue?
21:50 proller we have 6000+ road with fast allowed
21:50 proller 01:50:39: VERBOSE[main]: MOBF: spawning animal_vombie:vombie_spawner_at_night entity by at_night_spawner at position (7376.000000,3311.000000,91.000000)
21:50 proller 1000++++
21:50 proller in log
21:51 sapier1 then add as much memory as required to support it
21:51 sapier1 or disable vombies if your server can't handle them in combination with fast clients
21:51 proller i have 32g
21:51 proller 1818M  1030M uwait   6 168:13 100.39% freeminerserver
21:51 sapier1 I thought memory will never bee an issue?
21:51 VanessaE O_O
21:51 proller its lua error
21:52 sapier1 no it isn't if you trigger 10000 blocks to be loaded you'll trigger 10000*mob density spawners
21:52 proller 3 minutes of shutdown again..
21:53 VanessaE ... -> #minetest  ?
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21:53 proller but lua cant use more than 1-1.5G memory
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21:54 sapier1 obviously it can
21:54 sapier1 wait lua itself can't?
21:55 proller maybe limit
21:55 sapier1 -->minetest
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22:17 paramat hi celeron55, sapier1, please merge the per player custom skybox https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/960 this is essential for my space realms and moonrealm mod :)
22:22 sapier1 I don't see a final decision of that discussion in there. does this collide with recent time based coloring?
22:22 ShadowNinja sapier1: Right, I want it to have the server reply to CTCP VERSION with it's version.
22:23 ShadowNinja sfan5: You've got a good use for that pull now.  :-)
22:24 sapier1 I wasn't involved in that dscussion but if I remember correct version wasn't made available to mods to avoid silly modders write code like if version == X.X.X then enable feature y
22:24 ShadowNinja I've added a return parameter to chatcommand functions.  Normally it is simply sent with chat_send_player, but it can be captused and sent to, eg, the server's terminal or a box in a formspec(for a commandblock).  I'd also like to add a scuuess return value.
22:25 sapier1 I suggest looking up that discussion prior adding that version command
22:25 ShadowNinja Yes, it was added because version comparison is more complicated than "if minetest.feature_i_need then ... end
22:25 ShadowNinja "
22:26 sapier1 and less error prone
22:26 sapier1 but as I said I wasn't involved by that time and neither do I really care now
22:30 sapier1 I'm gonna merge #1116 after removing the max concurrent fix this weekend so everyone is welcome to review and look for REAL problems.
22:30 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1116 -- Add proper client initialization by sapier
22:41 * proller facepalm
22:44 sapier1 nonsense comments to minetest please
22:45 proller nonsense pulls to trash please
22:46 sapier1 I'm really sorry irc doesn't have a ignore feature
22:46 sapier1 did you have any VALID comment about minetest development the last two months?
22:47 sapier1 maybe I missed it in between all of your "I'm pissed" comments
22:48 ShadowNinja sapier1: Actually it does, /mode +q server-side, and /ignore cllient-side.
22:48 sapier1 sadly my client doesn't support /ignore .. already tried
22:49 sapier1 and as far as I know +q is muting I don't thing it's fair to be that rude :-)
22:50 VanessaE proller G*d damn it stop trolling.  ENOUGH already.
22:51 sapier1 but back to 1116 I tested it with loop join/leave looped texture downloading  both with no other clients and with 5 10 30 clients logged in ... just standing there.
22:52 celeron55 i'm very busy with non-minetest stuff as people have probably very easily noticed, but i'll comment about two things:
22:53 paramat sapier1, pull 960: there are good suggestions for future improvements, but nothing that need delay the original pull which is extremely useful to modders as it is, AFAIK it does not conflict with anything.
22:53 sapier1 #960
22:53 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/960 -- set_sky()/override_day_night_ratio() by celeron55
22:54 celeron55 1) the only "issue" in #960 is the slightly non-perfect network protocol, but it's probably good enough
22:54 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/960 -- set_sky()/override_day_night_ratio() by celeron55
22:54 celeron55 and nobody is going to improve on it so that's a reason to merge it as is
22:55 sapier1 good enough for me, ShadowNinja it's scriptapi to any veto from your side?
22:55 celeron55 2) NEVER add a function in the API to read the version of the server; it is missing completely intentionally in order to allow forks of minetest (and this was decided way before freeminer became to exists; do not let it affect your standing on the feature in any way)
22:56 celeron55 exist*
22:57 celeron55 (it could be that whoever here has to fork minetest some day for any purpose, and a version-based feature check immediately becomes a pain in the ass at such point)
22:58 celeron55 (to both ways)
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23:09 ShadowNinja sapier1: Nope.
23:09 ShadowNinja celeron55: I don't want to check the version, only use it as a response in a CTCP VERSION reply in the IRC mod.
23:10 sapier1 does anyone volonter to rebase it to current master?
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23:10 celeron55 but if you make it possible, then almost any modder will use it for the wrong purpose
23:11 celeron55 we know from experience that modders are evil and will abuse anything that they possibly can 8)
23:12 kahrl see the second latest post of "The Old New Thing" for the sadness caused by getVersion type APIs
23:12 kahrl and there aren't even (officially supported) forks of Windows
23:12 ShadowNinja We can add "DO NOT DEPEND ON THE VERSION FOR CHECKING FEATURES, USE IT ONLY FOR DISPLAY. USE MINETEST.FEATURES OR 'if minetest.thing_i_need' INSTEAD." TO THE DOC.
23:12 ShadowNinja -Caps at the end.
23:12 celeron55 ShadowNinja: doesn't matter; they'll say "works for me"
23:12 sapier1 which will be ignoread
23:13 sapier1 -a
23:13 kahrl http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthin​g/archive/2014/01/28/10493174.aspx
23:13 ShadowNinja We can't do anything about moders that refuse to read.
23:13 celeron55 yes we can
23:13 celeron55 and it's simple
23:13 ShadowNinja And they'll break things in worse ways even without this feature.
23:13 celeron55 i already said it 8)
23:15 ShadowNinja So, the official way to get the version is "os.execute('git describe --tags --always > hash.txt ...')"?
23:15 celeron55 from the standpoint of mod code, there are no versions
23:15 ShadowNinja I'll add that after the patch I'm working on now.
23:16 ShadowNinja Or is there something else I can read?
23:16 sapier1 git describe won't work for a installed server
23:16 celeron55 what kind of benefit do you expect to get from giving out a minetest version number for CTCP VERSION?
23:16 sapier1 imho it should contain the version of the irc client not the server version
23:17 celeron55 i guess it should say "minetest irc mod version <whatever the mod version is>"
23:21 ShadowNinja celeron55: That's what it does now, but I CTCPd a server it check it's Minetest version.
23:21 ShadowNinja * Received CTCP-VERSION answer from Merlin: Minetest IRC mod 0.2.0
23:22 kahrl why not simply check the serverlist?
23:22 ShadowNinja I want to add " running on Minetest 0.4.x-13579ace-dirty" or some such to that.
23:23 ShadowNinja The server list isn't that precise, and although in this case it will work, announcement is not madatory.
23:24 ShadowNinja Actually, it isn't on the list, so that won't work.
23:24 kahrl why do you need the version anyway?
23:24 ShadowNinja Comments on http://ix.io/abZ ?
23:24 ShadowNinja (I plan to open a PR...)
23:24 kahrl I guess you could connect to the server to see its version
23:25 ShadowNinja To figure out if it's running 0.4.8 or 0.4.9.
23:26 ShadowNinja But why do we need these workarounds?  if minetest.thing_i_need is far easier to implement than a version parser, so lazy moders won't write one.
23:27 kahrl it's easier if you know about it
23:27 kahrl but lazy modders don't read, so they don't know about it
23:28 kahrl but they know they need a feature from version >=X, so they look for a function that checks for version X
23:28 ShadowNinja They'll have to read quite a bit to get a working version parser.
23:28 Exio4 modders will abuse the function anyway
23:29 Exio4 even if needs to be run in an integrated brainfuck interpreter
23:29 ShadowNinja Modders have abused just about every function in the MT API.
23:29 Exio4 most modders aren't "pro coders"
23:29 ShadowNinja But if they're looking for a version checking function they'll see the notice and use the recommended and simpler method.
23:30 kahrl no, the notice is in a separate line so it won't be read
23:31 Exio4 or because they'll be using more than a single feature from 0.4.9
23:32 Exio4 ShadowNinja: modders are like long time users, http://xkcd.com/1172/
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