| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:13 |
|
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| 00:14 |
ShadowNinja |
bind_address rebased... |
| 00:16 |
ShadowNinja |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1081 This looks good -- xyz? |
| 00:17 |
ShadowNinja |
Related: #1051 |
| 00:17 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1051 -- libGLESv2 dynamic link breaks minetest on NVIDIA |
| 00:21 |
|
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| 00:21 |
xyz |
yes I will fix stuff assigned to me latet |
| 00:21 |
xyz |
later* |
| 00:45 |
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| 01:04 |
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| 02:38 |
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| 02:41 |
ShadowNinja |
Does the serverlist allow multiple servers from one IP/with the same name/description? What things are checked for uniquenes, if any? |
| 02:41 |
ShadowNinja |
proller: ^ |
| 02:42 |
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| 02:43 |
proller |
ip:port |
| 02:44 |
proller |
name/desc - optional |
| 02:44 |
proller |
only for showing |
| 02:45 |
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| 02:45 |
ShadowNinja |
Ok, so it should work fine(show seperately) if everything is identical but the port? |
| 02:46 |
ShadowNinja |
proller: ^ |
| 02:51 |
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| 02:59 |
ShadowNinja |
Well, it seems a new server removes the old server... Except the port isn't shown properly. |
| 03:01 |
ShadowNinja |
b03135548bbd9bcb73d14b067b96ec913404dd5f is the first bad commit |
| 03:09 |
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| 03:16 |
ShadowNinja |
Hah, if I'm reading this right using POST will only involve moving the data from the url to a HTTPFetchFequest field, encoded identically. |
| 03:18 |
ShadowNinja |
Any thoughts on me rewriting the masterserver script in PHP? |
| 03:27 |
|
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| 03:33 |
xyz |
ShadowNinja: the point being...? |
| 03:34 |
ShadowNinja |
xyz: Readability. |
| 03:35 |
xyz |
do you know perl? |
| 03:36 |
ShadowNinja |
xyz: No. |
| 03:36 |
xyz |
then you shouldn't be the one to judge readability of that code |
| 03:37 |
ShadowNinja |
Although it would probably be more readable if I understood perl, other languages are easy to understand without having ever seen them before. |
| 03:38 |
sapier |
perl readable? :-) I guess there's noone out there knowing all ways doing same thing provided by current perl versions |
| 03:38 |
sapier |
but of course thats benefit and failure of perl same time |
| 03:39 |
xyz |
although it would probably be more readable if I understood Japanese, oh well forget it |
| 03:40 |
xyz |
I just miss the point entirely |
| 03:41 |
xyz |
if you want to improve it then do something about client side |
| 03:41 |
hmmmm |
PHP is horrible! |
| 03:42 |
hmmmm |
it would probably be more readable if it were python (and consistent with the other minetest utilities) |
| 03:42 |
hmmmm |
;) |
| 03:42 |
sapier |
I don't know of ANY language there's noone compaining about it ;-) |
| 03:42 |
hmmmm |
that's probably gotta be the worst |
| 03:42 |
hmmmm |
when someone rewrites an entire component in the language of their choice |
| 03:48 |
xyz |
I don't see any problem with perl though |
| 03:49 |
xyz |
I would be very irritated by the need to reconfigure my server every time someone rewrites something into other language just because they can't understand the current implementation |
| 03:52 |
ShadowNinja |
Well, I could do Python, but Python isn't a web language by design. |
| 04:20 |
kahrl |
should we get rid of the "low-priority enhancement" label? |
| 04:20 |
sapier |
and how to mark things we don't wanna do instead? ;-) |
| 04:21 |
kahrl |
just "enhancement"? |
| 04:21 |
kahrl |
if something was labeled low-priority before that may not be true anymore with the new subsystem maintainers |
| 04:21 |
sapier |
guess this way realizing noone really cares about a special feature will be more difficult ... not worst effect ;-) |
| 04:22 |
sapier |
yes but that is true for almost anything |
| 04:24 |
kahrl |
maybe keep the low-priority label as an option but upgrade all currently existing enhancements to "enhancement"? |
| 04:24 |
sapier |
to be honest I'm gonna have a look at those things anyway once the maintainer thing is officially |
| 04:33 |
kahrl |
which subsystem do mainmenu/modstore bugs belong to? |
| 04:34 |
sapier |
hmm guess that'd be ShadowNinja |
| 04:34 |
kahrl |
script API? not sure |
| 04:35 |
sapier |
I think so but even if there are maintainers that doesn't mean the maintainer has to do all the work ;-) |
| 04:35 |
kahrl |
maybe add a subsystem "builtin/mainmenu" |
| 04:35 |
kahrl |
of course that could be assigned to ShadowNinja or anyone |
| 04:36 |
kahrl |
although... some of builtin would conflict with server/client/env |
| 04:36 |
ShadowNinja |
Mainmenu is both client/audiovisuals and ScriptAPI. |
| 04:37 |
sapier |
we have conflicts everywhere so as of me I'd consider the lua parts more to be in Shadows realm but of course it touches server client too |
| 04:38 |
kahrl |
ok, I'm assigning those to client/audiovisuals for now |
| 04:38 |
kahrl |
it'll hopefully get clearer when the subsystems are eventually separated in code |
| 04:38 |
sapier |
I hope so too :-) |
| 04:50 |
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| 05:14 |
xyz |
hmm.. what if we make some kind of server proxy |
| 05:14 |
xyz |
a server which acts as a server but actually connects to the real one and acts as clients on it |
| 05:16 |
xyz |
so when a client which is connected to that proxy sends, say, a dig, then the proxy processes it with its lua scripts (that are a subset of the server which is proxied) and sends the action to the server |
| 05:17 |
xyz |
this way we can have "client-side" lua prediction plus more fun stuff |
| 05:37 |
kahrl |
Mission Complete: Assign section labels to all open issues |
| 06:01 |
ShadowNinja |
\o/ /me checks his sections. |
| 06:05 |
ShadowNinja |
#355 Um, there hasn't been a response to this. Close it? |
| 06:05 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/355 -- HTTP Error 404: Not Found |
| 06:06 |
ShadowNinja |
Hmmm, it exists. |
| 06:11 |
kahrl |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/355 |
| 06:13 |
ShadowNinja |
What happened to the Travis CI builds? -- Oops, isn't much I can do about that. |
| 06:14 |
kahrl |
what is 355 about? I don't get it |
| 06:15 |
ShadowNinja |
I don't know, and there's no response, which is why I suggested closing it. |
| 06:16 |
kahrl |
yeah, go ahead |
| 06:16 |
ShadowNinja |
#1045 looks good, with the spelling fix and a capital 'M' in Minetest. |
| 06:16 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1045 -- Add cmake commandline parameters to README.txt by sapier |
| 06:17 |
kahrl |
maybe add more info about what curl is used for |
| 06:17 |
kahrl |
e.g. the modstore, server_announce |
| 06:17 |
kahrl |
remote_media |
| 06:24 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: I thinnk #959 causes the replacement bug... |
| 06:24 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/959 -- Add 6d facedir rotation prediction routine by VanessaE |
| 06:25 |
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| 06:25 |
ShadowNinja |
You also check buildable_to twice nested... |
| 06:29 |
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| 06:29 |
kahrl |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1045 added a suggestion |
| 06:36 |
kahrl |
ShadowNinja: about the serverlist announcing, do you still have the pastebin link? it says timeout, right? |
| 06:37 |
ShadowNinja |
kahrl: I think so, it also mentions a response of 0. |
| 06:38 |
kahrl |
well 0 means it didn't get one |
| 06:38 |
kahrl |
can you check (e.g. with wireshark) if it sends the request and if an answer comes back? |
| 06:39 |
ShadowNinja |
Maybe later. |
| 06:40 |
kahrl |
just ping me when you know more |
| 06:40 |
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| 06:40 |
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| 06:41 |
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| 06:44 |
kahrl |
btw, I found this greasemonkey script for assigning labels to pull requests: http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/185095 |
| 06:45 |
kahrl |
that had always bothered me about github, that you can't do that on pull request pages |
| 06:49 |
ShadowNinja |
The labels on issues only show up for me about 5% of the time... |
| 06:50 |
ShadowNinja |
Or maybe it's just a PR thing... |
| 06:51 |
kahrl |
normally it should show them on all issues that are not pull requests |
| 06:51 |
ShadowNinja |
Yes. I don't like how they don't show up there. That's where we use them most. |
| 06:54 |
kahrl |
this script fixes that |
| 06:59 |
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| 07:05 |
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| 07:05 |
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| 07:06 |
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| 07:49 |
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| 08:19 |
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| 09:05 |
celeron55 |
maybe there indeed should be client/gui |
| 09:05 |
celeron55 |
is there any taker for that? |
| 09:53 |
VanessaE |
ShadowNinja: it's a bit obscure in that code but pos1 gets redefined half-way through, so that buildable_to check is actually done on two different nodes (once on pointed_thing.under and once on .above) |
| 09:53 |
VanessaE |
however the rare replacement of a non-buildable node has existed since before this routine, so I'm pretty sure that's not it. |
| 09:54 |
VanessaE |
(plus it happens when placing, e.g. a bucket of water, which doesn't use this code at all) |
| 09:57 |
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| 09:57 |
celeron55 |
(i think currently sapier should be on client/gui as he has worked so much on it and initially made the whole formspec menu thing) |
| 10:00 |
kahrl |
celeron55: sounds good to me |
| 10:01 |
kahrl |
of course that's assuming he has enough time for 3 subsystems |
| 10:08 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: sapier is gonna kick your ass, you know that right? :() |
| 10:08 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 10:12 |
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| 10:32 |
celeron55 |
kahrl: let's not make it unless sapier wants to |
| 10:47 |
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| 11:15 |
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| 12:19 |
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| 12:21 |
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| 12:23 |
sapier |
"xyz hmm.. what if we make some kind of server proxy" sounds more complicated then necessary to me ... and very laggy |
| 12:25 |
sapier |
3 subsystems ... guess I schould reduce my coding efforts in favor of administration ... but right now it's most likely the most sane decision |
| 12:26 |
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| 12:52 |
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| 12:53 |
xyz |
sapier: why would it be laggy? it's supposed to reduce network lag |
| 12:54 |
sapier |
partially any processing step in between will limit the theoretical rtt ... but of course as networking is our big point in there this is most likely not of relevance here |
| 12:54 |
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| 12:54 |
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| 12:56 |
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| 12:56 |
sapier |
I thought about a different way of doing client side lua basicaly callbacks are done on client to but their actions are queued for revertion if not commited within a certain time |
| 12:57 |
xyz |
that proxy stuff will work in a similar way |
| 12:57 |
xyz |
but it'll allow more fun things to do if properly implemented |
| 12:57 |
sapier |
yes different wording but quite similar mechanics |
| 12:58 |
sapier |
what exactly? |
| 12:58 |
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| 12:58 |
xyz |
for example, having a big server somewhere and a lot of gateways in different parts of the world to minimize latency, like some MMO games do |
| 12:58 |
celeron55 |
so people really want to make an MMO? |
| 12:59 |
celeron55 |
and expect it to work? |
| 12:59 |
sapier |
I'm not sure if it's wise to mixup load balancing with game mechanics |
| 12:59 |
celeron55 |
well i'm fine with that if it's done with a proxy; at least it doesn't mess up every codebase |
| 12:59 |
xyz |
I wasn't talking about load balancing |
| 13:00 |
proller |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1087 |
| 13:00 |
proller |
ShadowNinja, ^^ |
| 13:00 |
sapier |
sounded like load balancing ... guess you need to be more precise for me to understand |
| 13:01 |
sapier |
what exactly is that proxy supposed to do? |
| 13:02 |
sapier |
btw I'd require some help on evaluating protocols, for now I have 3 different (yet hard to get) indicators |
| 13:02 |
xyz |
"to minimize latency" |
| 13:02 |
sapier |
max throughput, avg rtt, avg jitter |
| 13:03 |
xyz |
it's still more like thought experiment |
| 13:03 |
sapier |
as I said in our very special case there may be ways to reduce latency but not by a actual proxy (proxy defining as thing just caching static data) |
| 13:04 |
sapier |
those proxys I know usually increase throughput and speed on recurrent data but increase latency on dynamic data |
| 13:11 |
xyz |
sapier: as I said earlier this proxy will run its own Lua scripts and therefore will be able to predict at least some actions |
| 13:11 |
xyz |
sapier: by the way, what profiler did you use for Lua? |
| 13:12 |
sapier |
if I remember correct that one from geofrey or some similar name |
| 13:12 |
sapier |
how do those lua scripts keep in sync to server and mods? |
| 13:13 |
sapier |
talking about profiler did I do something wrong or does intel vtune not support 64 bit environments? |
| 13:13 |
xyz |
can't find anything related in google, can you look the name up? |
| 13:13 |
sapier |
of course |
| 13:14 |
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| 13:14 |
xyz |
explain, what's the issue with intel vtune? it works fine on my 64 bit os and the binary seems to be 64 bit too and it seems to profile 64 bit minetest fine as well |
| 13:15 |
xyz |
"how do those lua scripts keep in sync to server and mods?" — that's a hard question and we can't do anything about it; in the simplest case for some mods they can be just the same, for other of course not everything could be predicted |
| 13:15 |
sapier |
https://github.com/geoffleyland/luatrace ... try to place minetest in some very very short path as it's gonna "shortcut" paths by "..." and therefore fail to match paths to files |
| 13:16 |
xyz |
hm... this seems like an overkill to me; I just wanted something simple |
| 13:17 |
xyz |
so I guess for now I'll go with pure-lua profiler and ffi call to get precise time |
| 13:17 |
sapier |
I'm not sure if I understand correct but wouldn't that mean proxy has to do exactly same thing as server? |
| 13:18 |
proller |
trying to optimize 2000 players on one server & |
| 13:18 |
proller |
? |
| 13:18 |
sapier |
not sure if this wouldn't be the easy task compared to syncing 20 proxy servers |
| 13:19 |
xyz |
sapier: I guess in the best case it'll do the same, but this is not always achievable (I guess it's almost never achievable) |
| 13:20 |
xyz |
well, the case with multiple players is really hard so for now let's talk about a single-player "proxy" which runs on localhost, runs mods and acts as a layer between the client and the server |
| 13:21 |
sapier |
I guess you know how big this task is :-) let's have a try |
| 13:21 |
xyz |
this way we get zero latency in, say, inventory or crafting, even when lua is involved a bit (say, checking permissions) |
| 13:21 |
xyz |
I know, that's why I said it's more a "thought experiment" |
| 13:21 |
sapier |
imho for single player the client side callbacks are way more easy and straight forward |
| 13:22 |
sapier |
and we already have most of the infrastructure required to do them |
| 13:22 |
xyz |
well then do it this way if it's simpler |
| 13:23 |
sapier |
it's on my list for ages now but until I completed other open tasks I wont start a new one if your proxy suggestion works well why do another one |
| 13:24 |
xyz |
the problem with both suggestions is that neither is being coded |
| 13:25 |
sapier |
you told that about tcp protocol 2 weeks ago too ;-) |
| 13:26 |
sapier |
but this time I'm gonna spare that part for you *smile* |
| 13:28 |
sapier |
does enet provide a interface to read rtt and jitter? |
| 13:28 |
xyz |
check api docs |
| 13:28 |
sapier |
I didn't see something but I may have missed it |
| 13:31 |
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| 13:31 |
xyz |
there's roundTripTime field in ENetPeer struct |
| 13:33 |
sapier |
guess that's gonna be good enough ... not sure if I'm comparing apples with bananas |
| 13:33 |
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| 13:37 |
xyz |
not sure if that comparison shows anything tbh |
| 13:37 |
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| 13:38 |
sapier |
me to but until there's some better suggestion? |
| 13:38 |
* celeron55 |
is debugging block sending now that he has a fast computer and fixed networking in his hands |
| 13:39 |
sapier |
celeron you know I already fixed it? |
| 13:39 |
celeron55 |
there's a magic setting that makes it work super fast |
| 13:39 |
proller |
it already tuned in FM ;) |
| 13:40 |
celeron55 |
if you just set emergequeue_limit_generate = 50, the speed seems to be limitless |
| 13:40 |
celeron55 |
no code changes otherwise |
| 13:40 |
sapier |
you still will run into squence number glitches and other implemetation flaws |
| 13:40 |
celeron55 |
well i'm running the server_improvement branch to get networking work reliably |
| 13:41 |
celeron55 |
(and fast) |
| 13:41 |
sapier |
that's not the latest one switch to udp_implementation_fixes (squashed and some minor fixes) |
| 13:41 |
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| 13:42 |
sapier |
but there's still one bug there I already fixed (happens on client disconnection) |
| 13:43 |
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| 13:45 |
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| 13:57 |
celeron55 |
sapier: both of those branches hang on singleplayer disconnect |
| 13:57 |
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| 13:57 |
celeron55 |
while that configuration fix works on master too and it doesn't have the hanging problem |
| 13:57 |
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| 13:58 |
sapier |
I'm gonna look at it, I wait for packets beeing sent there (or all client's timing out) ... guess there's something wrong in there |
| 14:07 |
nore |
btw: I just got that when exiting minetest: *** Error in `./minetest': free(): invalid pointer: 0x00007f2f940000b8 *** |
| 14:08 |
celeron55 |
here's one lockup: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6697118/ |
| 14:08 |
nore |
======= Backtrace: ========= |
| 14:08 |
nore |
terminate called without an active exception |
| 14:08 |
nore |
Abandon |
| 14:08 |
nore |
<-- and that |
| 14:09 |
nore |
^ any thoughts about that crash? |
| 14:10 |
sapier |
seems like connect threads just don't stop ... guess that's gonna be fixable |
| 14:10 |
sapier |
seems to be a double free nore |
| 14:11 |
sapier |
at least that'd be my first thing to check |
| 14:11 |
sapier |
ok I found first thing our old protocol beats all others ... rtt |
| 14:12 |
sapier |
at least if I didn't do a measuring error |
| 14:12 |
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| 14:13 |
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| 14:14 |
sapier |
but looking at old protocol jitter rtt's < 10exp-5 seem to be an error |
| 14:14 |
xyz |
see, this only confirms that those numbers don't show anything |
| 14:14 |
sapier |
but your fealings of enet beeing "better" are so much better ;-P |
| 14:15 |
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| 14:15 |
xyz |
my feeling are based on my 100-players test |
| 14:15 |
sapier |
lol 100 players are so representative |
| 14:16 |
xyz |
what is then? |
| 14:16 |
sapier |
and what do they show? 100 subjective sayings it's better then some variant we all know it was broken badly |
| 14:17 |
xyz |
they show that it's better at handling a lot of packets between server and client |
| 14:18 |
sapier |
we now know that enet is better then something not working at all ... but what we actually need to know is how fixed minetest,enet, tcp compare |
| 14:19 |
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| 14:20 |
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| 14:21 |
sapier |
ok seems rtt caclulation in my fixed branch is still broken guess that could have performance effects too ... lets fix and check again |
| 14:24 |
kahrl |
for the sake of curiosity, how did the rtt calculation get broken? |
| 14:25 |
sapier |
due to split of send and receive thread, the dtime added by send thread is obviously no longer in sync to receive thread |
| 14:25 |
kahrl |
ah |
| 14:25 |
sapier |
so in worst case rtt is underestimated by max send thread sleep time |
| 14:28 |
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| 14:32 |
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| 14:38 |
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| 14:44 |
celeron55 |
sapier: so how long does it still take to figure out what to use?+ |
| 14:44 |
sapier |
good question, hope to have some reasonable numbers within next week |
| 14:45 |
celeron55 |
what if the fixed udp stuff was taken into use right once those lockups are fixed and then there's time to think about the others while we have a non-sucky backwards-compatible protocol in use |
| 14:45 |
celeron55 |
there's nothing to lose by going that way |
| 14:46 |
celeron55 |
or is there? |
| 14:47 |
sapier |
I already thought about that, the only thing stopping me about it is it's quite likely that threre are issues caused by send/receive split we haven't found out now. yet vanessae is running it for days by now so this might not be a critical issue |
| 14:49 |
celeron55 |
if VanessaE is running it without issues, then it works well enough |
| 14:50 |
sapier |
I'm fine about it so I fix those isses I know about and prepare it for merge |
| 14:51 |
sapier |
as of now those are rtt, vanessae's exception and the hang |
| 14:56 |
|
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* VanessaE |
wanders back in |
| 14:57 |
VanessaE |
mostly without issues, yes. every so often someone has to disconnect and try again, but I'd say no more often than it ever is. plus one crash which I already told sapier about |
| 15:00 |
sapier |
yes the exception I assume it's someone I already fixed in tcp or enet branch but haven't merged back to udp branch right now |
| 15:01 |
VanessaE |
right |
| 15:01 |
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VanessaE |
bbl |
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| 16:25 |
xyz |
celeron55: I'm still not sure if I need another dev agreement to merge stuff which I'm responsible for |
| 16:36 |
celeron55 |
XYZ: you don't; by being assinged to be a subsystem maintainer you are trusted to know better than some random naysayer |
| 16:38 |
XYZ |
alright, I'll go on and merge some things then |
| 16:38 |
celeron55 |
of course you *can* ask, but by all means you don't have to |
| 16:39 |
XYZ |
how do I get access to our launchpad builds? |
| 16:39 |
celeron55 |
what kind of access |
| 16:39 |
XYZ |
another question, what versions of Irrlicht do we support? I'd like to close #712 and forget about it |
| 16:40 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/712 -- irrlichttypes.h version problem |
| 16:40 |
celeron55 |
i guess you log into there and request membership |
| 16:40 |
XYZ |
ah, I see |
| 16:42 |
celeron55 |
i think we currently should support every 1.7 and 1.8 release available here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/irrlicht/files/Irrlicht%20SDK/ |
| 16:42 |
celeron55 |
curiously enough, there's no 1.8.0 there |
| 16:42 |
XYZ |
"Your request to join Minetest Developers is awaiting approval" |
| 16:43 |
XYZ |
there's irrlicht-1.8.zip |
| 16:44 |
celeron55 |
http://slackware.org.uk/slacky/slackware-13.37/libraries/irrlicht/1.8.0/src/ |
| 16:44 |
celeron55 |
8) |
| 16:44 |
celeron55 |
what the fuck, 13.37 |
| 16:44 |
celeron55 |
but that seems to be the packaging stuff for slackware |
| 16:44 |
xyz |
my request is still awaiting approval |
| 16:45 |
celeron55 |
i approved it now |
| 16:47 |
xyz |
nice |
| 16:47 |
xyz |
is it okay if I rename "Minetest-c55" to "Minetest"? |
| 16:47 |
celeron55 |
you can, but it's a whole lot of trouble as there are many references to the name in the packaging scripts and whatever |
| 16:47 |
celeron55 |
it was considered but dropped because of that |
| 16:49 |
xyz |
ah, I see |
| 16:49 |
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| 16:49 |
celeron55 |
lol what |
| 16:50 |
celeron55 |
i'm looking at irrlicht.SlackBuild |
| 16:50 |
celeron55 |
this takes just the SVN trunk of irrlicht and calls it 1.8.0 |
| 16:50 |
celeron55 |
good luck figuring out what version they have packaged 8D |
| 16:51 |
* hmmmm |
steps back |
| 16:51 |
hmmmm |
https://www.freshports.org/x11-toolkits/irrlicht/ |
| 16:51 |
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| 16:51 |
hmmmm |
is this real life? |
| 16:53 |
celeron55 |
why do you ask? 8) |
| 16:54 |
hmmmm |
don't you see? freebsd has irrlicht 1.8 |
| 16:59 |
celeron55 |
xyz: of course the title of the page can be renamed, but there are all those repo names that are referenced |
| 16:59 |
xyz |
yes, I see |
| 16:59 |
celeron55 |
and i don't know by what name eg. apt-get references the ppa (the page name or the repo names or something else) |
| 17:00 |
celeron55 |
also you might want to know that IIRC those github references were set up by manually requesting them from the launchpad staff |
| 17:02 |
xyz |
this packaging stuff is awful, do we really need it? |
| 17:02 |
celeron55 |
launchpad is the preferred place for ubuntu and debian and whatever; they want it there but maybe we could force them to manage it themselves |
| 17:03 |
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| 17:04 |
celeron55 |
1) find some ubuntu or debian game package maintainer, 2) tell them that good luck, we have decided to abandon it, 3) get kicked in the ass |
| 17:04 |
Exio4 |
what about the guy that actually mantains the debian package? |
| 17:05 |
celeron55 |
Exio4: find him and drag him here |
| 17:09 |
xyz |
uhh |
| 17:10 |
xyz |
I guess there's no way to apply this http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/games-action/minetest/files/minetest-0.4.9-as-needed.patch?view=markup in a sane way, preserving author, etc? |
| 17:10 |
xyz |
also #617 was incorrectly tagged as client/audiovisuals |
| 17:10 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/617 -- Minetest floating point exception |
| 17:11 |
kahrl |
xyz: I only quickly looked at most issues, this one had an exception in font handling so I put it there |
| 17:12 |
xyz |
alright |
| 17:12 |
kahrl |
feel free to retag that one |
| 17:16 |
hmmmm |
so guys are you enjoying quick releases? :) |
| 17:17 |
kahrl |
I do |
| 17:17 |
ShadowNinja |
VanessaE: The bucket was broken but was fixed. The issue was in the bucket's code, there is no deeper issue, you need to use get_node_or_nil. (And you should also remove that redefining) |
| 17:18 |
hmmmm |
releasing is hard work :( |
| 17:18 |
kahrl |
I should write the make-minetest-release.sh script VanessaE mentioned and set up a cron job to call that script randomly |
| 17:21 |
hmmmm |
hah |
| 17:21 |
kahrl |
heh, there is some guy on linkedin whose job title is "Probabilistic Software Management" |
| 17:22 |
hmmmm |
that sounds pretty nasty |
| 17:22 |
hmmmm |
but they probably mean decision trees etc. |
| 17:22 |
hmmmm |
risk management stuff |
| 17:23 |
kahrl |
ah :) |
| 17:23 |
kahrl |
I just thought it was fitting |
| 17:24 |
hmmmm |
BRB, I still didn't 100% fix my xorg setup |
| 17:24 |
hmmmm |
I went home for two weeks and I didn't have the same exact monitor setup, and now when I come back everything's a mess |
| 17:25 |
hmmmm |
randomly missing icons, missing window titlebar text, mouse acceleration/keyboard repeat speed settings screwed up, huge DPI setting |
| 17:28 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: do you know that there is a bug in emergemanager where it will select between the generate queue limit (default 2) and disk queue limit (default 6) based on whether generating is *allwoed*, not based on whether it will be actually done, leading to the main bottleneck in sending block data to clients? |
| 17:28 |
hmmmm |
whoops |
| 17:29 |
hmmmm |
no I did not know that |
| 17:29 |
celeron55 |
the values are overally too low in any case; an effective workaround seems to be to set those both to as high as 50 without real problems and then the bottleneck is gone |
| 17:29 |
hmmmm |
especially when everybody said that after my do-over is faster than the original |
| 17:29 |
celeron55 |
but a lower works too |
| 17:29 |
hmmmm |
s/after / |
| 17:29 |
celeron55 |
i tested in singleplayer, don't really have any idea about server with tens of players |
| 17:29 |
xyz |
#617 is hard, with the patch applied we can no longer build with custom Irrlicht since it uses bundled libpng |
| 17:29 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/617 -- Minetest floating point exception |
| 17:29 |
hmmmm |
I'll have to take a closer look |
| 17:29 |
xyz |
and system libpng goes first |
| 17:30 |
celeron55 |
my question is that do you want to fix it or should i just propose a new default config that fixes it |
| 17:30 |
hmmmm |
celeron, just curious, did you notice an actual difference in performance? |
| 17:30 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: the difference is very visible |
| 17:30 |
hmmmm |
I'd like to take a look at what I could do to fix it |
| 17:30 |
celeron55 |
just run a singleplayer game on a computer that renders to a distance of like 200 and also set the server to send to that distance |
| 17:31 |
hmmmm |
because it's actually not too straightforward |
| 17:31 |
celeron55 |
and set the network to perform better |
| 17:31 |
celeron55 |
which is... set this http://paste.ubuntu.com/6698208/ |
| 17:31 |
hmmmm |
also didn't your old code do the same thing? |
| 17:31 |
celeron55 |
if you remove the two last lines from that, it stays slow |
| 17:31 |
celeron55 |
but with them it's fast |
| 17:32 |
hmmmm |
shrug |
| 17:32 |
hmmmm |
well look: |
| 17:32 |
hmmmm |
you don't actually *know* whether or not the block needs generation until it's too late (i.e. it's that block's turn to get processed) |
| 17:32 |
xyz |
what about #457? do we care about centos having weird version of irrlicht? |
| 17:32 |
hmmmm |
at which point the fact that it's in a queue or not doesn't matter |
| 17:32 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/457 -- HTTP Error 404: Not Found |
| 17:33 |
hmmmm |
so what do you personally think we should do? |
| 17:33 |
celeron55 |
xyz: i don't see how we can help that; doing some ifdefs will just break it elsewhere |
| 17:33 |
celeron55 |
or if you know how, then do it |
| 17:33 |
hmmmm |
to "fix" this logic error, I think the best thing to do would be to just remove the different limits and make it THE emergequeue limit |
| 17:33 |
hmmmm |
but to actually fix it as in, do what it was intended to do in the first place |
| 17:34 |
hmmmm |
we'd have to do a db query for the existence of that key |
| 17:34 |
xyz |
alright, I'll leave this issue open for now |
| 17:34 |
hmmmm |
but that's slow, and it goes back to that idea I had a long time ago of caching block existence |
| 17:34 |
xyz |
can't you just fetch all block positions at startup? |
| 17:35 |
hmmmm |
the simple "stupid" way of doing that (storing all block v3fs in a std::map) is probably going to end up too large of a data structure |
| 17:36 |
hmmmm |
there do exist less common data structures for this kind of thing, I don't remmeber what the name of it is but I remember what it does basically |
| 17:37 |
celeron55 |
well, a quadtree or any other thing that is able to efficiently store information about volumes that aren't too noisy |
| 17:37 |
hmmmm |
I think its' this www.di.ens.fr/~jv/HomePage/pdf/dichotomy09.pdf or something |
| 17:38 |
xyz |
what complexity do you aim for? |
| 17:38 |
hmmmm |
obviously O(1) |
| 17:38 |
hmmmm |
but storage is the problem here |
| 17:39 |
xyz |
then use hashtables |
| 17:39 |
celeron55 |
or maybe just index in larger chunks, and also forget the Y coordinate? 8) |
| 17:39 |
hmmmm |
no |
| 17:39 |
hmmmm |
stop it |
| 17:39 |
hmmmm |
these are all ideas that might work okay but there are special data structures made exactly for this kind of problem |
| 17:39 |
hmmmm |
we ought to look into those |
| 17:40 |
celeron55 |
well anyway, what if we chhange the default configuration for now |
| 17:40 |
hmmmm |
sure, that could be a good for now thing |
| 17:40 |
celeron55 |
with a big comment saying it's a hack but it currently works better than no hack |
| 17:43 |
hmmmm |
ugh I'm paywalled http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=176484 |
| 17:43 |
hmmmm |
can somebody download that for me? my school account ran out a long time ago |
| 17:44 |
celeron55 |
looks like i can |
| 17:44 |
celeron55 |
except no |
| 17:45 |
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| 17:45 |
celeron55 |
it changed it's mind |
| 17:46 |
hmmmm |
well |
| 17:46 |
hmmmm |
alright maybe your idea isn't too bad |
| 17:46 |
hmmmm |
we don't need some sort of exotic data structure |
| 17:46 |
celeron55 |
anyway, there's the issue though that with the current default networking/other confiugration and the default send and generation distance, the poor emerge performance doesn't actually matter, so we should decide on those first |
| 17:46 |
hmmmm |
if we associate a plain bitmap with a MapSector, that'd take 512 bytes per |
| 17:46 |
proller |
celeron55, https://github.com/freeminer/freeminer/commit/f86ef3a14ffdcc432029a153f14854fd9298c4d0 |
| 17:46 |
celeron55 |
which are all in that paste |
| 17:47 |
celeron55 |
proller: that's useful |
| 17:48 |
hmmmm |
it's useful but it's just a minor improvement in an overall horrible block sending scheme |
| 17:49 |
hmmmm |
I wonder what the main problems with DavidMikeSimon's rewrite were |
| 17:50 |
hmmmm |
what I'd do instead of calculating based on FOV is just to request the whole D-radius sized area of blocks |
| 17:50 |
hmmmm |
like in Minecraft |
| 17:51 |
proller |
not very good if you want 1000 range |
| 17:51 |
celeron55 |
the sending isn't actually that bad; it's main issue is bad tuning like for any adaptive-ish algorithm |
| 17:53 |
celeron55 |
i don't quite agree with putting that stuff in that packet though |
| 17:53 |
celeron55 |
there should be a new packet that's purpose is to tell the server about the client's relevant configuration |
| 17:54 |
celeron55 |
thats* |
| 17:55 |
hmmmm |
thanks |
| 17:55 |
proller |
but creating new packet now very hard |
| 17:55 |
hmmmm |
oh that's a crappy algorithm |
| 17:56 |
hmmmm |
all that does is eliminate the need to initialize the sparse array |
| 17:56 |
hmmmm |
you still need to have a very large set |
| 17:57 |
celeron55 |
proller: yes it's unnecessarily hard, everyone knows it |
| 17:58 |
celeron55 |
maybe a simple layer could be added for some kind of less efficient generic packets |
| 17:58 |
proller |
yes, messagepack ;) |
| 17:58 |
celeron55 |
which go on that layer in a single type of packet and are named by a string |
| 17:58 |
hmmmm |
I had an idea that xyz says is similar to protobufs that's reverse compatible |
| 17:58 |
proller |
or special json-rare packets |
| 17:59 |
hmmmm |
if we are breaking compatibility, then we should definitely use protobuf |
| 17:59 |
hmmmm |
not messagepack |
| 17:59 |
proller |
why? |
| 17:59 |
hmmmm |
because I don't want to waste space sending keys constantly....? |
| 18:00 |
proller |
1-3 bytes for key is big waste? |
| 18:00 |
hmmmm |
1-3 bytes for every key |
| 18:00 |
hmmmm |
and yes it is |
| 18:00 |
celeron55 |
what about stored data that wants to use keys for cross-version compatibility, and cross-version compatibility otherwise too? |
| 18:01 |
celeron55 |
protobuf isn't particularly good at such as far as i can see; it's basically what minetest has now but fancier to set up |
| 18:01 |
hmmmm |
the idea is that the keys are implicitly encoded in packets as the position of the data |
| 18:02 |
hmmmm |
what the keys are is exchanged upon connection |
| 18:02 |
hmmmm |
just once |
| 18:03 |
celeron55 |
we eventually want a new format for on-disk data too |
| 18:04 |
celeron55 |
maybe it has to be different then anyway; well whatever |
| 18:05 |
celeron55 |
but changing these protocols and formats to anything that is worse in maintaining compatibility is a big failure |
| 18:05 |
hmmmm |
I can do it |
| 18:05 |
celeron55 |
do what |
| 18:06 |
hmmmm |
look, like I said, you have a new packet with information about the protocol itself |
| 18:06 |
hmmmm |
if the client or server or whatever never receives that |
| 18:06 |
hmmmm |
it's assumed to be the format that we have currently |
| 18:06 |
celeron55 |
protobuf is fine for networking, i'm not conceerned about that |
| 18:06 |
celeron55 |
-e |
| 18:06 |
hmmmm |
like I said, protobuf is what I'd personally do if we wanted to blow everything up and start again from scratch |
| 18:07 |
hmmmm |
this idea is similar to protobuf, except I can make it reverse compatible |
| 18:07 |
hmmmm |
oh my god one big idea at a time, please |
| 18:07 |
hmmmm |
libmtmap first |
| 18:08 |
celeron55 |
8D |
| 18:08 |
hmmmm |
then the generalized formspec |
| 18:08 |
celeron55 |
anyway, for networking really anything that puts the packet definitions into a centralized place and enforces them is enough |
| 18:09 |
celeron55 |
anything else than that is extra, but obviously we want as much extra as possible |
| 18:10 |
hmmmm |
where am i going to get the free time necessary to do this |
| 18:10 |
celeron55 |
however, as i am responsible of graphics now, i can't stand static block send distance and slow sending; i'll add the new packet |
| 18:10 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: get shorter work week |
| 18:10 |
hmmmm |
i just blew away a 2 week vacation doing nothing... well almost, I worked on my old NES game a tad |
| 18:11 |
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| 18:11 |
hmmmm |
it's structured slightly less horrible now |
| 18:16 |
proller |
hmmmm, can ypu make configurable nparams_biome_def_heat nparams_biome_def_humidity in this year? |
| 18:17 |
hmmmm |
perhaps |
| 18:23 |
celeron55 |
actually, i'm not going to do it now; i'll do it once sapier gets his server/protocol improvements in |
| 18:24 |
* celeron55 |
makes issue |
| 18:47 |
celeron55 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1022 |
| 18:48 |
celeron55 |
i think we need a new subsection for things like this |
| 18:48 |
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| 18:48 |
celeron55 |
it isn't even minetest's problem as a program really, but mmdb's; so it's kind of about minetest's infrastructure or policy or something |
| 18:50 |
xyz |
I'm not even sure what to do; that time I just removed those licenses but then this guy came and said that it's actually fine |
| 18:50 |
xyz |
and now I guess someone has readded them and they're complaining again |
| 18:53 |
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| 18:54 |
celeron55 |
maybe we should just add a setting to filter them on the client like it was originally suggested |
| 18:54 |
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| 18:54 |
celeron55 |
i'll add a note about that here https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1053 |
| 18:54 |
xyz |
then they'll complain about it being enabled/disabled by default |
| 18:55 |
celeron55 |
hmm, true |
| 18:55 |
celeron55 |
maybe we'll show them randomly 50% of the time |
| 18:55 |
celeron55 |
then it's fair for everybody as they get less visibility but are still shown?! |
| 18:56 |
celeron55 |
well what's your opinion |
| 18:56 |
celeron55 |
is it still the same as in there |
| 18:57 |
kahrl |
oddly enough, no one seems to have ever filed a bug on firefox that it shouldn't allow downloading proprietary software |
| 18:59 |
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| 19:02 |
celeron55 |
if someone asks me, i think we should disallow ND and NC in there; they don't make much sense overally anyway |
| 19:02 |
xyz |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/script/lua_api/l_object.cpp#L944 what could go wrong? |
| 19:03 |
xyz |
using cc licenses for code is already considered strange, isn't it? |
| 19:04 |
celeron55 |
xyz: lol 8) |
| 19:05 |
xyz |
this was reported in #808 |
| 19:05 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/808 -- Static Analysis Warnings |
| 19:05 |
xyz |
there's also nice division-by-zero error when executing /clearobjects with less that 10 blocks generated |
| 19:07 |
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| 19:07 |
xyz |
this clang analyzer seems really handy |
| 19:07 |
xyz |
although last time I tried to run it it said there were no errors |
| 19:08 |
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| 19:09 |
xyz |
"none of these warnings are actually issues" |
| 19:09 |
rubenwardy |
ok, I am not using freeminer anymore: there is no console |
| 19:10 |
xyz |
what if we set a goal to release every month? this will be fun |
| 19:10 |
xyz |
I know at least about GitLab who do that; they release every month on 20-22 |
| 19:11 |
xyz |
although they have more intensive development process too... |
| 19:11 |
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| 19:11 |
xyz |
rubenwardy: we totally needed to know this |
| 19:12 |
rubenwardy |
oh |
| 19:12 |
rubenwardy |
wrong channel |
| 19:13 |
rubenwardy |
Please forgive me! |
| 19:15 |
xyz |
I don't have anything big-endian but I think #670 should just go in |
| 19:15 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/670 -- Fix build on big endian architectures. by mat8913 |
| 19:22 |
celeron55 |
sapier: Can you say something useful on https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/844 and/or https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/546 about showing settings menu in-game? |
| 19:32 |
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| 19:32 |
|
Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/ |
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| 19:50 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: oops |
| 19:51 |
celeron55 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/759 |
| 19:51 |
celeron55 |
what's up with this? |
| 19:54 |
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| 19:57 |
celeron55 |
hmm, it seems the same problem was fixed by allowing multiple textures per model |
| 19:57 |
celeron55 |
so i think i can close it as it was a non-final version in the first place |
| 20:09 |
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Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/ |
| 20:09 |
celeron55 |
what's up with this join/quit flood |
| 20:09 |
celeron55 |
people please stay here or stay out, i don't want to disable visible joins and quits on my client |
| 20:09 |
celeron55 |
as don't many others |
| 20:10 |
kaeza |
netsplits; freenode is seriously derping today |
| 20:11 |
celeron55 |
does someone want this? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/751 |
| 20:11 |
celeron55 |
it looks like nobody is interested in it |
| 20:12 |
celeron55 |
except Exio |
| 20:16 |
Exio |
copy-paste support is the thing |
| 20:17 |
celeron55 |
what? |
| 20:18 |
Exio |
the console doesn't have proper support of "copy-paste", and the actual inputbox has those features |
| 20:26 |
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Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/ |
| 20:30 |
pitriss |
Exio: yep i can confirm that.. copy paste works for me only in / or t window.. |
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| 22:09 |
PilzAdam |
ShadowNinja, could we add something like on_move() and allow_move() for player inventories? |
| 22:10 |
ShadowNinja |
PilzAdam: Yes. |
| 22:14 |
celeron55 |
i can imagine uses for that 8) |
| 22:14 |
* celeron55 |
has played nodetopia |
| 22:14 |
celeron55 |
altough you probably don't want to do what came to my mind |
| 22:15 |
celeron55 |
and i'm not telling it! |
| 22:15 |
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| 22:15 |
PilzAdam |
:-( |
| 22:15 |
PilzAdam |
anyway, nodetopia gets armor now |
| 22:20 |
celeron55 |
sounds appropriate |
| 22:31 |
proller |
/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lfreetype |
| 22:38 |
proller |
before cguittfont_LIB_DEPENDS:STATIC=general;/usr/local/lib/libIrrlicht.so;general;/usr/local/lib/libfreetype.so;general;/usr/lib/libz.so; |
| 22:38 |
proller |
after guittfont_LIB_DEPENDS:STATIC=general;/usr/local/lib/libIrrlicht.so;general;freetype;general;/usr/lib/libz.so; |
| 22:41 |
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| 22:44 |
celeron55 |
http://paste.ubuntu.com/6699855/ |
| 22:44 |
celeron55 |
here's some hacky shit that makes objects that use the same mesh have different lighting |
| 22:45 |
celeron55 |
dunno about memory leaks or anything and bone positions are unhandled (they're trivial though, but i don't really have anything to test with) |
| 22:46 |
celeron55 |
if someone can, that someone might want to develop it further |
| 22:47 |
celeron55 |
also maybe that animation stuff doesn't work either and has to be somehow similarly managed and reset each frame |
| 22:47 |
celeron55 |
and yes, this does not make any sense; irrlicht is really lacking here |
| 22:51 |
celeron55 |
well the problem with the vertex lighting does make sense, as such isn't usually used; but if there is any other as PilzAdam suggests here, that doesn't make sense: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/703 |
| 23:12 |
xyz |
can somebody test if current master compiles? |
| 23:13 |
xyz |
apparently because of cb7bb736c70afa7e7dfc90545ad52992a35dc082 it doesn't link on proller's freebsd |
| 23:15 |
celeron55 |
seems to build |
| 23:34 |
hmmmmm |
testing |
| 23:35 |
hmmmmm |
fails to link |
| 23:35 |
hmmmmm |
undefined reference to BiomeDefManager::calcBlockHumidity and so on |
| 23:35 |
hmmmmm |
let's see what's in that commit |
| 23:36 |
hmmmmm |
whaa |
| 23:38 |
hmmmmm |
this doesn't make sense |
| 23:40 |
hmmmmm |
alright even when I roll it back there's that linking error |
| 23:40 |
PilzAdam |
rm CMakeCache.txt and build again |
| 23:42 |
hmmmmm |
erm... compiles but crashes now |
| 23:42 |
hmmmmm |
there's something wrong with my computer |
| 23:42 |
hmmmmm |
I just updated today |
| 23:45 |
hmmmmm |
alright 0.4.9 works |
| 23:45 |
Taoki |
celeron55: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/608 I still believe this looks a little bit nicer. Also, even if text is quite readable without it, this makes it even more easily readable. It's easier to focus on the fonts when the background is a little darker, despite what the text shadow does |
| 23:46 |
celeron55 |
Taoki: i don't think many people want it |
| 23:46 |
celeron55 |
you can just open the f10 console if you want to read a lot |
| 23:46 |
Taoki |
Perhaps something else (but similar) can be done sometime, when other HUD changes can also be added |
| 23:47 |
Taoki |
eg: Textured quickbar |
| 23:47 |
hmmmmm |
alright, after clearing the cmake build cache that odd linking error is gone |
| 23:47 |
hmmmmm |
and I am not seeing proller's error |
| 23:47 |
hmmmmm |
FreeBSD/amd64 9.1-RC3 |
| 23:49 |
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| 23:50 |
hmmmmm |
proller, I can't verify your linking bug |
| 23:50 |
celeron55 |
Taoki: a game can already make a textured quickbar if it wants to |
| 23:51 |
Taoki |
Nice. Can the same system be used to add a chat background? |
| 23:51 |
celeron55 |
it's not the engine's problem really |
| 23:51 |
Taoki |
Actually no... you need to know the number of lines |
| 23:51 |
Taoki |
True |
| 23:52 |
celeron55 |
chat is kind of a client-side thing though and it might not be a thing that we want to be game-themed |
| 23:54 |
celeron55 |
the only thing keeping me from not making that a setting is that i think most of people are happy with the shadow |
| 23:55 |
celeron55 |
if you can ask around and prove there's demand, then it will happen |
