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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-01-03

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:16 celeron55 aaand it works with GLESv1: http://c55.me/random/2014-01/t​scrot-2014-01-03_03-14-10.png
01:17 celeron55 now i need to just somehow hack it into landscape and we have one more useful touch interface development device
01:18 sapier1 great
01:21 sapier1 hmm dynamic casting in time critical areas doesn't seem to be a good idea :-/
01:31 sapier1 thexyz could you give the new version a try? I was able to reproduce that issue and it's fixed for me.
01:38 sapier1 tcp did quite well if you take into account I forgot to update my fdset prior doing select within a loop of count 10 and ... select timeout 50ms ... so tcp was handled each 0.5 seconds only
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01:44 hmmmm [05:22 PM] <PilzAdam> nobody pushed to stable-0.4 branch, mt_game isnt taged
01:44 hmmmm I thought you were doing minetest_game
01:44 hmmmm the -dev suffix gets reenabled the next time someone wants to commit something.... it doesn't need to be done immediately
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02:37 VanessaE so about copy&paste into minetest in linux.
02:37 VanessaE is that ever gonna get fixed properly?
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03:08 kahrl VanessaE: has anyone ever figured out how other irrlicht-based games fix it?
03:09 VanessaE kahrl: I'm not sure, all I do know is that for some folks under certain window managers, or certain clipboard managers, it does work
03:09 VanessaE it doesn't, for example, work in xfce, but I guess KDE users can use it?
03:10 kahrl I guess so; c&p is implemented in irrlicht but it uses a not-general-enough mechanism, it appears
03:10 VanessaE neither the ctrl-c/ctrl-v method, nor highligh/middle-click, nor selecting from xfce's clipboard manager work
03:10 VanessaE yet I can usually select something inside of minetest, and then copy that out and paste it into ghre.
03:10 VanessaE here*
03:11 VanessaE midnightsystems.kicks-ass.org  <--- copied out of the main menu
03:11 VanessaE (ctrl-c/ctrl-v)
03:12 VanessaE works from the 't' chat dialog also
03:12 VanessaE can't highlight to copy at all in the F10 console
03:12 VanessaE (nor can I paste)
03:13 VanessaE some users have in the past reported that attempts to copy from somewhere else, say a terminal, and paste into minetest will actually *crash* the app from which the text was copied
03:15 VanessaE not sure if that's still the case though, haven't had it happen to me
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03:21 kahrl same here: I can copy out of minetest, but not paste into it
03:21 kahrl (not in the F10 console, but c&p is not implemented at all there)
03:21 kahrl s/but/because
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03:29 kahrl hmmmm: didn't nore already commit something after 0.4.9? or was that part of the release?
03:29 VanessaE I didn't notice?
03:29 VanessaE *checks log*
03:29 VanessaE yup
03:30 VanessaE https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/91923806a98fb5cc8e2bf6ed6a864b41337bb3e5
03:30 VanessaE I wonder if that's that glitch that sometimes affects signs, doors, etc when you aim at them from an oblique angle.
03:30 * VanessaE shrugs
03:30 VanessaE that's the only commit I see
03:30 kahrl could be
03:32 kahrl I noticed that behaviour when I modified getPointedThing for 0.4 and nodeboxes, but decided to leave it in because there often were item objects stuck inside nodes
03:32 kahrl so by prioritising objects it was possible to pick those items up
03:33 kahrl anyway, I'm readding the -dev suffix now
03:39 VanessaE now's the time to get some experimental stuff rebased and added
03:39 VanessaE that damn VBO patch needs to go in before it's lost forever
03:41 kahrl updated minetest_game's stable-0.4 branch and pushed the 0.4.9 tag
03:43 kahrl minetest's stable-0.4 is stuck on 0.4.8 too, let me update that
03:43 VanessaE criminy, lots of shit didn't get done did it
03:44 kahrl it's a bit horrifying
03:45 VanessaE I'm a little bit surprised no one's figured out how to script this
03:45 VanessaE you know, just ~/Scripts/make-minetest-release.sh 0.4.9
03:45 VanessaE or somethin
03:47 kahrl that should be possible actually
03:47 VanessaE the only less-than-doable part would be automating the build+upload of the windows package
03:48 VanessaE well I guess there's cross-compiling
03:48 VanessaE but then, no DX support if you do that.
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06:58 VanessaE jeez
06:58 VanessaE quitting the client never seems to send the "quit" packet to the server
06:58 VanessaE always has to wait for a timeout.
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09:22 sfan5 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1081 <<< opinions please!
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12:55 Ritchie hi, why cannot be disabled logging debug and action to console or logfile?
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13:08 VanessaE just dump all output to /dev/null if you must
13:08 VanessaE but that's a bad idea
13:08 VanessaE makes it impossible to collect debug data if something crashes
13:22 Ritchie i want to log only errors, not actions
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13:38 iqualfragile Ritchie: errors are usually caused by actions
13:38 iqualfragile btw:VanessaE pipeworks crashes on load
13:38 VanessaE oh?
13:38 VanessaE wfm :P
13:38 VanessaE what's the error?
13:38 iqualfragile sec
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13:53 PilzAdam <hmmmm> the -dev suffix gets reenabled the next time someone wants to commit something.... it doesn't need to be done immediately <- yea, but someone already pushed something without reenabling it
13:54 PilzAdam I guess it would help if one person organizes the release
13:54 nore PilzAdam, indeed, hadn't thought about that
14:03 xyz what's the point of whining so much about so unimportant things
14:04 PilzAdam xyz, whats the point of not following a simple step-by-step guide?
14:04 xyz all you do is whine about this or that
14:04 xyz what do we need -dev suffix for in the first place?
14:04 xyz the generateversion will append commit hash and other stuff anyway so it's not like anyone will confuse it with release
14:05 PilzAdam to easily tell if people use stable or a dev version if they report bugs
14:05 PilzAdam (if they not build in a git dir)
14:06 xyz indeed so what are the chances of someone building specific non-release commit in non-git dir? why get so pissy if someone forgot to enable -dev suffix, I don't understand
14:06 xyz you could as well have fixed this yourself
14:07 PilzAdam it was not my intention to sound "pissy"
14:07 PilzAdam I think its important to tell people what they can do better next time
14:09 PilzAdam and I havent fixed it myself because I am not allowed to push stuff without agreement of another core dev
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14:10 sapier ok here it is https://github.com/sapier/​minetest/tree/enet_support triple protocol client/server branch
14:10 sapier FIrst results: Download 170B media loopback starting multiplayer server from gui, time enter pwd -> in game:
14:11 sapier Legacy(fixed minetest protocol): 3:03 min
14:11 sapier Enet: 2:33 min
14:11 sapier TCP: 0:18
14:11 nore wow
14:12 sapier and NO last one isn't a typo ... tcp is lightning fast in this test
14:12 pitriss great..
14:12 xyz I don't really get it, what's "triple" about it?
14:12 sapier you can connect using any of those protocols
14:13 xyz ah, I see, that's awful, but whatever
14:13 sapier I was to lazy to compile new everytime
14:13 sapier enet uses port+1 so this is not the final solution of course
14:14 xyz I don't really understand what did you test
14:14 sapier but that's an additional point, we can't create a dual protocol clientfor enet + legacy without a second port too
14:14 xyz 170 bytes of media or what?
14:14 sapier I made my server have 170mb of texture and media data and did connect
14:14 xyz localhost?
14:14 sapier yes
14:15 xyz ah
14:16 sapier of course that test is tcp's top performing task, so it's not the actual ranking I'm suprised about but the deltas
14:16 sapier I'd not have expected tcp to be that fast
14:16 sapier and to be honest I've expected more from enet
14:17 sapier especialy as it doesn't honor the 512byte udp datagramm limit
14:18 xyz well I guess it's not made for sending large media
14:18 xyz for anything that size (100 mb or so) I'd expect any sane person to set up a remote media server
14:18 xyz that's how other games do that, at least
14:19 sapier maybe but considering that someone even complained about having to open a tcp port to firewall if we use hybrid mode, setting up an additional server is even more work
14:20 sapier of course there are other issues that can be solved by a media server too
14:20 xyz you're comparing incomparable things now
14:21 xyz in that mode you called "hybrid" the server admin is always required to open a port
14:21 xyz setting up media server is only required when your media is too large; and you don't like the cdn for whatever reason
14:22 sapier ok lets not discuss about the cdn thing again it's not related to protocol at all ;-)
14:22 xyz then you should stop talking about media transfer either
14:23 sapier no we shouldn't as it's a task protocol has to cope with
14:23 xyz well then you should talk about it reasonably
14:23 sapier minetest is not a professional multiserver game
14:23 xyz what's the reasonable size of media?
14:23 xyz indeed it isn't
14:24 sapier as far as I know you usually have one server maybe a vps with multiple cores
14:24 xyz anyway since you yourself have agreed that this test doesn't show anything what shall we test the next?
14:24 sapier I'd not assume 100 mb texture+media size to be out of scope
14:25 sapier you said this test doesn't show anything
14:25 sapier that test shows what connect times in corner case will be
14:25 sapier a test testing non load situations is useless
14:26 xyz yes, well, my point is that media sending doesn't show much
14:26 sapier it's the first impression I'd not underestimate that fact
14:26 xyz well whatever
14:26 xyz I just compile and run enet_support and get tcp server and client, right?
14:27 sapier there's a config setting to switch between all three modes
14:27 xyz well it complains about missing header enet/enet.h, perhaps you forgot to include something?
14:27 sapier client_protocol=(legacy,tcp,enet)
14:28 sapier server will always accept all of them
14:28 sapier no I used system enet
14:28 xyz ah that's a terrible idea
14:28 sapier that's the one and only sane idea
14:28 xyz yeah sure
14:28 sapier why should I build a own enet if there's even a debian package available?
14:29 xyz because that's how enet recommends to do things
14:29 sapier of course cmake should have a look for it
14:29 xyz there could be protocol-breaking changes
14:29 xyz say, enet updated to enet2 tomorrow
14:29 xyz in arch repos, but not in debian
14:30 xyz uh oh bad luck
14:30 sapier you know this is a con for enet?
14:30 xyz no, I don't think it is
14:31 xyz well, I honestly don't care that much anyway
14:31 sapier I'd consider it a con to depend on some other lib for my own project to be compatible to my old versions
14:31 xyz I just think that your way of doing some things is wrong, that's all
14:31 sapier because once enet breaks protocol we have to either maintain it ourselfs or break with old clients too
14:32 sapier xyz :-) I do think same about your way ;-)
14:32 sapier yet I guess you'll manage to compile it do you?
14:34 sapier and for enet included to minetest or not ... actually I don't really care about, I prefere using system libs where possible, but I won't argue about it if someone volonteers to do the work avoiding the system package ;-)
14:35 xyz I don't think we've decided to include any of those
14:35 xyz have we?
14:35 sapier nothing is decided by now
14:36 xyz I see
14:36 sapier if someone suggests a udp based protocol outperforming tcp on big data that one might have even better chances to win then enet or tcp itself
14:37 xyz for some reason I see "what():  Failed to bind TCP socket" when I restart my minetestserver
14:37 xyz after some time it goes away
14:37 sapier just ignore those small glitches
14:38 sapier there are plenty of random issues in there that need to be fixed but they're not show stoppers for testing
14:38 sapier at least not those I know abot
14:39 sapier btw I still haven't removed the conlock ... this might limit tcp and legacy performance in scenarios with lots of clients
14:39 sapier for enet this won't change anything it's already limited by single thread design
14:40 sapier and no it's not unfair, enet just doesn't support multithreading
14:41 xyz hm, I'm afraid you did something wrong about enet
14:41 xyz I've just checked your branch, it runs goddamn slow there and can't even handle 50 clients, and there are some lags in single player game as well
14:41 xyz while in my branch it can easily handle 100 clients
14:42 sapier any idea?
14:44 sapier because if it's not a benefit of enet it might be a global fixable issue
14:46 xyz well there's one easy thing you missed
14:46 xyz fixing it improved the situation but I still feel that something's too slow
14:46 sapier can you tell me what it is?
14:47 xyz well it's right here https://github.com/sapier/minetest/blob​/enet_support/src/connection.cpp#L1388
14:47 xyz anyway, for some reason the server asserts from time to time
14:48 sapier what's wrong there?
14:48 xyz you should use if instead of while there
14:49 sapier true
14:49 sapier but will result in a single packet beeing proccessed at once only
14:50 xyz this doesn't matter
14:51 sapier ok then we should tcp to do it same way to ;-) it's trading cpu power for latency
14:51 sapier but it's hard to compare as tcp isn't limited that much by this issue due to separate send and receive threads
14:52 xyz uhm, did you get what's the issue about?
14:52 xyz if send and receive threads are separated then it shouldn't affect it at all
14:52 sapier if course enet does only process incoming packets in this loop as of some incoming packet threshold is reached
14:53 xyz no, I was talking about other thing
14:53 xyz let's say you receive a packet every 50 ms or less
14:54 xyz this means you'll never send anything
14:54 xyz because you'll never get out of this while
14:54 sapier they are because in tcp packets aren't packets but a continous stream, where multiple packets are extracted from that stream prior packet processing
14:55 sapier that's what I meant with  "packet threshold"
14:55 xyz that issue is really simple and doesn't require any network knowledge
14:55 sapier so yes this is a bug in enet implementation I haven't thought about
14:56 sapier no matter it's fixed
14:57 sapier ok what else
14:59 xyz well let's see..
14:59 sapier of course I can reduce the timeout to < 50 .. but this will increase cpu load in idle situations too
14:59 xyz did you profile it?
15:00 xyz well how about 10
15:00 xyz at least, that's what I used so it'll be more honest to compare it this way
15:00 sapier not yet but I don't have to profile something to know running loops in 50ms raster causes less load then running them in 10ms
15:00 xyz although under load it shouldn't matter
15:00 xyz I'm talking about profiling this thing in general
15:01 sapier split thread design doesn't need this as they're woken up by incomming commands
15:01 xyz I had to fix other stuff
15:01 xyz in my branch
15:02 sapier that's why you've been suggested to push to minetest
15:02 sapier it's already impossible to compare freeminer to minetest
15:02 xyz aww, it crashed
15:03 xyz well, from time to time I posted some commits that improve performance a bit there
15:03 sapier it's a prototype ;-)
15:03 sapier error handling is most likely neither complete nor gracefull ;-)
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15:04 sapier what do you use for profiling?
15:04 xyz /home/xyz/minetest/minetest-sa​pier/src/connection.cpp:1551: void con::ConnectionEnetThread::process​Command(con::ConnectionCommand&): Assertion '"Got command that shouldn't be sent through enet command" == 0' failed.
15:05 sapier hmm disconnect? :-)
15:05 xyz I use Intel VTune Amplifier
15:05 sapier guess that one isn't freely available? ;-)
15:06 xyz ah
15:06 xyz that happens when max_users is met
15:06 xyz well, it's free as free beer for Linux
15:06 sapier ok that's missing too I don't honor the max user setting in enet
15:06 xyz and non-commercial stuff
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15:07 xyz so if that's fine you can grab it
15:07 sapier tried 65k but enet failed :-)
15:07 sapier there seems to be some limit for maximum user count
15:07 xyz right
15:08 xyz now it crashed with /home/xyz/minetest/minetest-sa​pier/src/connection.cpp:1474: void con::ConnectionEnetThread::sen​dCmd(con::ConnectionCommand&): Assertion '"ENET failed to send data!" == 0' failed.
15:08 xyz after I disconnected all the bots with killall
15:08 sapier I haven't implemented disconnect handling yet
15:10 sapier guess that's gonna be necessary for usefull testing
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15:12 xyz can't find anything related in profiler log
15:12 xyz tcp thread seems to take the most time according to it, yet there are no tcp clients connected
15:13 sapier hmm tcp thread uses 50 ms timeout for beeing able to stop the thread
15:13 sapier maybe timeout setting is wrong
15:13 xyz well I guess you'll be able to profile it
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15:16 sapier do you still have the lag you mentioned yesterday in tcp?
15:20 xyz no
15:22 sapier ok good
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15:22 sapier but we still don't have a way to test it
15:22 sapier did you try 100 clients with legacy and tcp too?
15:24 xyz well why won't you do that? I can, of course
15:25 sapier because I don't have any idea how you did it, as far as I know master(and threrefor my branch) doesn't contain the no head fixes
15:26 xyz uh, I just merged your another branch into this
15:26 sapier this did work?
15:26 xyz why wouldn't it?
15:26 xyz of course it did
15:27 sapier would've expected this to mess up a lots of things
15:30 xyz why would it mess anything up? I think changes are in separate files
15:30 sapier sometimes I'd wish to know what you want xyz, do you want to improve minetest or do you want it to die in favor of freeminer ... or something completely different ;-)
15:30 xyz not sure what did you mean by this
15:31 xyz anyway, I've made a simple test: run 100 bots with proller's spawn.pl, then connect one "normal" client to run around and watch what's happening
15:31 xyz TCP seems to fail it because I can't connect with that normal client
15:31 sapier obviously you don't provide improvements for minetest the last weeks, reengeneering them from freeminer is often as much work as finding them without your previous work ... that's not bound to protocol things
15:32 sapier I do not say you don't do improvements ... just not for minetest directly
15:34 xyz same goes for enet
15:34 xyz I won't even bother testing legacy
15:34 xyz well it's not like I was doing anything interesting last weeks
15:34 xyz except maybe the colored chat
15:35 sapier I tested legacy up to 50 clients it did work without any issues ... after that my pc didn't have cpu power left for additional clients
15:35 xyz yes, and for other changes (some random improvements) I did provide links to commits here
15:36 xyz and I was told that colored chat should be done properly by hmmmm I think
15:36 sapier you know as good as I know that links in here will only bee seen if repeated at least 20 times ;-)
15:36 xyz well then what should I do?
15:37 celeron55 make an issue on github or a wiki page and collect them there i guess
15:37 xyz alright
15:37 xyz I'll go with issue on github then
15:37 sapier in best case just file a pull request ... of course I understand this is additional work for you doing main development for freeminer
15:38 xyz indeed, I'd prefer to not do it since I'll be asked to rebase it anyway after a week or so
15:39 xyz hmm.. so I guess the only thing that could be valuable is ABM stuff
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15:42 xyz okay, submitted #1082
15:42 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1082
15:42 sapier thanks! :-)
15:43 xyz unrelated, but I think that this bot should at least post issue title or something ^ ShadowNinja
15:44 sapier does irc support href style links? (showing title but connecting to url on clicking)
15:44 xyz no
15:45 xyz but we can shorten them, using git.io or so
15:46 sapier good idea
15:47 sapier argh that damn intel parallels studio is 3.2gb ... I'm on a 6mbit "broadband" line ;-)
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15:58 xyz you don't have to download the whole thing
15:59 xyz there's "network downloader" or whatever it's called which lets you select the parts you need
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16:18 sapier I don't usually use online installs because you can't reinstall later
16:19 sapier why the hell can't thos guys just provide a http/ftp mirror instead of some godamn active download provider not beening able to resume a download
16:22 xyz it seems buildcraft, all its "clones" and the developer is gone from android play store
16:36 ShadowNinja xyz: #123
16:36 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/123 -- Make ladders an attached node by ShadowNinja · Pull Request #123 · minetest/minetest_game · GitHub
16:36 xyz you didn't even try
16:37 xyz that's just a title; you could've included issue name, open/closed state, tags, number of comments, short url
16:38 ShadowNinja Well that involves writing a whole plugin that uses the GitHub API, this is just !web title.
16:41 xyz or you can just parse some html; anyway, that's not really important
16:41 ShadowNinja It seems Google got our request.  Now let's get our own version out.  :-)
16:41 kahrl the last three parts are really redundant, can those be stripped at least?
16:42 ShadowNinja Maybe...
16:49 sapier I really wonder how to do a 50 client test my pc is maxed out at 10 :-(
16:49 sapier not server but all the running clients
16:51 OWNSyouAll you using headless clients?
16:52 sapier yes
16:53 xyz what do you mean by "maxed out"?
16:54 sapier each client consumes 20% cpu load
16:54 sapier so 10 clients --->2 cores for clients used
16:54 sapier 1 core is completely used by graphics client ... and 1 is left for server
16:55 sapier don't have more then 4 cores ;-)
16:56 sapier server (without included graphics client) could distribute to 3 cores (2 for enet) ... but of course I can't test this if there's not even a single core available ;-)
17:12 xyz ShadowNinja: I
17:12 xyz ShadowNinja: I'm afraid getting our version out will take a bit of time
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17:13 ShadowNinja :-|
17:14 iqualfragile /r/ing function returning a list of all generated mapblocks
17:14 sapier hmmmm is that information available without reading whole map?
17:15 hmmmm not that i'm aware of.. you need to make a custom query to get all keys
17:16 ShadowNinja sqlite3 map.sqlite 'SELECT pos FROM blocks;'
17:16 sapier doesn't sound like a lightweight operation?
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17:16 iqualfragile sapier: its not
17:17 xyz iqualfragile: what do you need it for?
17:18 iqualfragile for sapier to implement some function for respawning mobspawnentities after some idiot might have accidentially /clearallobjects the whole map
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17:18 sapier I'm not sure this is the right way to do it (but of course it's a way to do it)
17:19 xyz idiot? clearobjects? accidentally?
17:20 ShadowNinja clearobjects isn't usually accidental, I want the entities gone.
17:21 iqualfragile i accidentally /clearallobjects the whole map
17:21 sapier removing all the spawning entities too ;-)
17:22 xyz uhh, that sounds like a hack
17:23 sapier quite ... spawning entities are "active objects" that might move to server in a later step of evolution
17:23 sapier actually client doesn't need to know anything about them
17:24 xyz I think what you need is an api method to get all loaded blocks
17:24 xyz or, better, callbacks on block load/unload
17:25 sapier could be used for regenerating the spawners too ... but cause permanent load
17:25 xyz nah, you won't need spawners this way
17:26 ShadowNinja Block load callbacks have been proposed many times.
17:26 nore xyz, I want those callbacks too
17:26 sapier xyz no the on load callbacks don't replace the spawners
17:26 xyz why won't they?
17:26 sapier because they won't trigger spawning if a block keeps active
17:27 xyz you maintain the list of interesting to you positions (spawn points), this list gets updated on block load/unload; then you can spawn mobs in on step callback
17:27 sapier processing that list is one big loop causing lag
17:28 xyz then you do it in the way that doesn't require processing of the whole list at once
17:28 sapier of course I can always add features in lua I get for free on using a spawner entity ;-)
17:29 xyz which is crude and ugly hack D:
17:29 sapier no it isn't
17:29 xyz and the engine anyway does the same thing
17:29 nore yes it is
17:30 sapier no it isn't a hack why to implement thousands of different ways to do performance quotaing? you can't even imagine sideeffects of every quota mechanism trying to be smarter then the above one
17:30 sapier not talking about the overhead caused by doing the quotaing
17:31 xyz it's a hack because I don't think entities were supposed to be used this way
17:31 xyz there are other hacks that make use of entities
17:31 xyz i.e. my signs mod, which displays text
17:31 sapier so what exactly do you think entities are supposed to be used for?
17:33 kaeza anything meant to be dynamic
17:34 sapier please define "dynamic"
17:34 kaeza I don't think signs' text or spawners fall into that category
17:34 kaeza moving objects
17:35 kaeza (but in the case of signs, there's no other way as you can't modify individual nodes at runtime)
17:35 sapier so once something stops moving it's not supposed to be a entity?
17:35 xyz those that interact with player? or the other way around
17:36 sapier that's why I said in long run thespawners should evolve to not beeing sent to client ;-)
17:36 sapier there's just no other lua active_object then entities right now
17:40 sapier but till then imho entities are way more clean then reimlementing active objects by global onsteps
17:40 sapier btw aren't blocks kept in memory as long as possible?
17:42 sapier ShadowNinja: is the serverlist issue fixed?
17:45 ShadowNinja sapier: No, it isn't.
17:54 sapier is anyone investigating this issue?
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18:20 RealBadAngel offtopic, ive played mc pe and buildcraft a bit
18:20 RealBadAngel controls for both are pain in the ass
18:20 RealBadAngel it lacks LMB/RMB on the right side of the screen IMHO
18:21 xyz inb4 our very own control scheme which of course will be better than both and everybody will love it
18:22 RealBadAngel how different from above?
18:22 xyz I found minecraft pe control scheme okay, what's wrong with it?
18:22 RealBadAngel unable to light tnt with torch for example
18:23 RealBadAngel simply, theres no LMB/RMB
18:23 RealBadAngel or at least nothing intuitive
18:24 xyz light tnt with torch?
18:24 RealBadAngel make it "kaboom"
18:25 RealBadAngel touching it just digs it
18:25 xyz "In Minecraft Pocket Edition, you can only use flint and steel to ignite TNT"
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18:25 RealBadAngel oops ;)
18:26 RealBadAngel anyway the controls feels just wrong
18:26 RealBadAngel left hand is almost unused
18:26 xyz so what do you suggest?
18:26 RealBadAngel also right hand covers jump for example
18:26 xyz uhhh?
18:27 RealBadAngel right hand should be used only for movement
18:27 xyz how comes
18:27 RealBadAngel left for lmb/rmb/jump
18:27 RealBadAngel you simply cannot see the buttons when having fingers above
18:28 xyz what game are you talking about now?
18:28 RealBadAngel and its almost impossible to move and jump at the same time
18:28 RealBadAngel mc pe and buildcraft
18:28 RealBadAngel they share same schema
18:28 xyz no
18:28 xyz they use totally different schemes
18:29 RealBadAngel not really, arrows and jump in the middle
18:29 xyz and still, no
18:29 xyz in MCPE you hold your finger on the FORWARD button
18:29 xyz and when you need to jump you just move it to the jump button and then back
18:30 xyz and it also autojumps so I don't see any problem here
18:30 RealBadAngel hmmz, i think im too used to keyoard and mouse then ;)
18:30 RealBadAngel havent figured that out
18:30 xyz yes
18:30 xyz you should stop thinking about just adding mouse and keyboard since that won't work
18:31 RealBadAngel but still, adding 2 action buttons on the left could be a good idea
18:31 xyz what buttons?
18:31 RealBadAngel lmb/rmb
18:31 xyz alright, so let me ask this
18:31 xyz did you play MC PE?
18:32 RealBadAngel a bit
18:32 xyz I see
18:32 xyz you should give it another try
18:32 RealBadAngel ok i will
18:32 xyz first, there's no cursor on the screen
18:32 xyz you just tap wherever you want to place a block
18:34 xyz second, I don't think we should have left/right mouse button concept here at all
18:34 xyz we should have dig, place, punch, rightclick (blame the one who has chosen this name)
18:37 xyz short tap: place, long tap: dig, double tap: punch, short tap: rightclick (for items that can be rightclicked, otherwise — place)
18:37 xyz for entities we should of course do punch on short tap
18:41 RealBadAngel this short/long single/double is a bit confusing
18:41 RealBadAngel i would rather prefer a button
18:41 xyz how long have you been using touch screen device(s)?
18:44 xyz and then, if you suggest adding a button does that mean that you suggest adding a cursor? like in buildcraft
18:45 RealBadAngel not for long, i bought a tablet a few days ago
18:45 RealBadAngel and i find controls in most of apps very unconfortable
18:46 celeron55 touchscreen sucks, but that's what you have when you want to have a device that has nothing but a screen
18:46 celeron55 there are android devices with other controls too for gaming
18:46 RealBadAngel first of all most of them assumes one hand
18:47 xyz please answer my question: and then, if you suggest adding a button does that mean that you suggest adding a cursor? like in buildcraft
18:47 RealBadAngel i suggest left hand being able to move cursor/use action buttons
18:48 xyz so you're suggesting to have cursor; alright, got it
18:48 xyz I'm not going to implement this sort of controls but you can use my branch as a start for yours
18:48 RealBadAngel thats why i bought the tablet in fact ;)
18:49 celeron55 i'm having immensely hard time trying to get the virtual keyboard on the sailfish os to pop up; that thing is ridiculously undocumented
18:50 celeron55 they have an implementation for qt's input system for it and just say "oh yeah you can use this via raw d-bus too; just do the same things", and then the same things give no error but no effect either
18:50 xyz I think we shouldn't just have virtual keyboard pop up, we need a dialog with editbox'
18:50 xyz at least, on Android; but I guess same goes for any mobile os
18:51 xyz same os with a virtual keyboard, because it can overlap the input box
18:51 xyz s/same/any/
18:51 celeron55 yes, probably
18:52 RealBadAngel is compilation process dificult for apks?
18:52 xyz RealBadAngel: in my branch you only have to grab the NDK, export ANDROID_NDK_ROOT to point at it and run build.sh
18:52 xyz and if you're lucky then that's all
18:52 celeron55 this contains xyz's freeminer android patches ported to minetest: https://github.com/celeron​55/minetest/tree/sailfish
18:53 celeron55 (in addition to my stuff for sailfish)
18:53 xyz if you aren't then you'll have to debug the thing
18:53 RealBadAngel xyz, it would be good to have some info on compiling for android added to main doc
18:53 celeron55 it's basically a personal backup of mine though, so don't expect non-edited commit history
18:53 RealBadAngel same as compiling for linux
18:54 xyz it's freeminer, it's not merged anywhere yet
18:55 xyz my personal branch too; do you expect it to be documented? you have an automated build script, that's all I was able to do to make your life easier
18:55 celeron55 xyz: if we had an input dialog, then i'd probably just implement an optional crappy irrlicht buttons-based virtual keyboard on it for my usage
18:55 xyz celeron55: awful
18:56 RealBadAngel btw, i just thought bout one thing. since functionality for PE and PC will differ a lot, is it wise to have both in one tree? or maybe keep PE repository next to main one?
18:56 celeron55 yeah; it would be just for platforms that don't work yet 8)
18:56 celeron55 RealBadAngel: they don't differ a lot at all
18:57 xyz celeron55: anyway, I guess it would be good if you could send your patches to irrlicht some day
18:57 RealBadAngel what about shaders etc?
18:58 xyz ahahaha
18:58 xyz oh wait
18:58 xyz currently light doesn't work at all
19:00 celeron55 yeah, the vertex color based lighting doesn't work with ogles1 fixed pipeline nor does our shaders
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19:05 celeron55 i haven't investigated why though
19:06 celeron55 but ideally irrlicht should make the vertex colors work; it doesn't seem like it should be a problem
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19:26 celeron55 xyz: what about the android patches?
19:26 xyz what about those?
19:26 celeron55 do the irrlicht devs know about those
19:26 xyz yes http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/fo​rum/viewtopic.php?f=7&amp;t=49410
19:26 xyz I'll fix some stuff and update them some day
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21:07 proller https://play.google.com/stor​e/apps/developer?id=Kevin.de
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21:17 celeron55 lol
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22:08 sapier come on those intel guys are joking parallel studio 2013 is not 64bit ready?
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