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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2014-01-01

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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02:08 hmmmm guys
02:08 hmmmm so I guess new year's release isn't happening?
02:08 hmmmm :/
02:09 hmmmm 3 more hours until my time zone's new year
02:09 hmmmm the absolute latest I'd say is in 6 hours (PST)
02:09 VanessaE well 3 hours is enough time if people really buckle down :)
02:10 VanessaE but is it ready is the question?
02:10 hmmmm it really is, but nobody we need is on
02:10 hmmmm and ShadowNinja never gave the final say on if the serverlist fix works or not
02:10 VanessaE I don't see anything particularly wrong with it other than shadow's issue of... yeah, that
02:11 * VanessaE shrugs
02:11 VanessaE I'm on sapier's build right now for his udp/tcp testing stuff, but it's rebased to current HEAD and the server list just works for me.
02:11 hmmmm so I wonder what the biggest problems were with the UDP that he fixed
02:12 VanessaE hmmmm: the CPU usage on the server when a non-cURL client connects and downloads the initial media load
02:12 VanessaE with current vanilla, it tends to hang the server at 100% and lags everyone out
02:12 hmmmm hmm
02:12 VanessaE with his fork, this happsn far less often
02:13 hmmmm oh also
02:13 hmmmm after removing the FPS counter from window title thing
02:13 VanessaE and if you build a client with his branch, the client is far faster over curl or not curl, also
02:13 VanessaE happens*
02:13 VanessaE yes?>
02:13 hmmmm minetest idles at 0% or 1% cpu usage on all cores
02:13 hmmmm jeez
02:13 VanessaE yep, nutz isn't it?
02:13 hmmmm it's actually getting good
02:13 ShadowNinja The serverlist didn't work last I checked (after the commit that suposedly fixed it) and there haven't been any fixer commits since then.  Vanessa doesn't have the issue though..
02:13 VanessaE window managers do stupid shit when you update the titlebar
02:14 hmmmm well
02:14 hmmmm you can't blame it
02:14 hmmmm I gave the reason why it did that earlier
02:14 hmmmm multithread access to UI elements
02:14 hmmmm on Xfce there's no doubt it keeps acquiring that lock
02:15 VanessaE well you kinda can, I mean suppose the window manager updates *everything* about the decorations?  I mean redraws the whole thing:  side/lower handles, the drop shadows, widgets, etc, instead of just writing some new text.
02:15 VanessaE I could see that killing CPU easily
02:15 hmmmm this problem could be easily non-existent with something like Wayland
02:15 VanessaE perhaps so
02:15 hmmmm where it's only drawn once per frame no matter how often it's updated
02:16 VanessaE but I guess that ain't happening yet
02:16 hmmmm Windows solves this problem by just pushing all of the UI updates to a queue and leaving a UI thread take care of them at its own leisure
02:16 VanessaE last I saw via slashdot (insert grain of salt here), latest X still lacks support for the transition to  wayland
02:16 VanessaE -( )
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02:46 VanessaE well here's another request on the forum for a way to get the client to pull a stream from e.g. youtube..
02:48 VanessaE it would be easy for the server to tell the client where to go (...) but telling the client to do it would be....  not trivial at all.
02:48 ShadowNinja What?  In-game YouTube?
02:48 VanessaE yeah
02:48 VanessaE this guy suggests youbube videos being tiled onto a node surface, similar to what we discussed a while back.
02:49 VanessaE er
02:49 ShadowNinja Oh, animated textures.
02:49 VanessaE youtube :P
02:49 VanessaE yeah, except I think he means pulling the stream live from the web.
02:49 ShadowNinja I think adding live streams is going too far.
02:50 VanessaE probably.
02:50 VanessaE but if more requests like this keep coming in, it might be worth considering in the future if it can be done gracefully, somehow.
02:51 VanessaE (I don't expect that this is possible, though.  playing any kind of video is CPU-intensive, let alone youtube)
02:53 VanessaE this stream I'm watching right now on livestream, for example, is taking nearly two full cores to decode.  so, no. :)
02:54 * ShadowNinja imagines someone adding 50 stream nodes and playing them all.
02:54 VanessaE I'd have to say if the client were to ever do that, only play the stream for the one side of the one node that is the closest to the player.
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03:41 hmmmm ShadowNinja, so no word on the serverlist fix?
03:49 ShadowNinja hmmmm: Nothing further ATM.  Maybe I can get a second server running.
03:49 hmmmm well, it's not like it matters unless we have the rest of the people needed to do a release
03:51 VanessaE well how many people does it take?
03:53 hmmmm someone to do debian repo updating, someone to do windows compiling, someone to do website updating, and then me :/
03:54 VanessaE eek, right
03:54 VanessaE didn't think of it from that perspective.
03:54 hmmmm minetest_game tag as well
03:54 hmmmm I don't do marking/tagging or really anything with minetest_game
03:55 ShadowNinja Here's the error: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6671550/ (And whoever decided to use GET for JSON data needs to be konked on the head)
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03:57 hmmmm what the ....
03:58 hmmmm well first of all it's not properly escaped
03:58 hmmmm or nevermind, it is, I didn't see the periods
03:59 hmmmm that is ridiculous
03:59 hmmmm the JSON should not be in the query parameters, but in the POST body
03:59 hmmmm I am pretty sure this is proller's fault actually, since he's the one who did this
03:59 hmmmm the one who made this*
04:02 VanessaE I wonder if that's why it works for me?
04:02 VanessaE I don't use anything json related
04:02 VanessaE at least not deliberately.
04:03 ShadowNinja VanessaE: Um, the serverlist is JSON-based and you use the serverlist.
04:03 VanessaE oh.  heh
04:03 VanessaE figured this was happening minetest-server-side e.g. something in the config
04:03 hmmmm my guess is that one of the parameters are invalid and it's not producing a response because the server threw an exception of some sort
04:03 VanessaE or something that's compiled-in
04:04 hmmmm you can't really figure out what the error is without looking at servers.minetest.net
04:04 ShadowNinja It may be possible that the URL is too long and the request was dropped.
04:04 VanessaE http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6671577/
04:04 VanessaE there's what I use, if it's of any help at all.
04:05 ShadowNinja Well, VE probably has a much longer one just from mods.
04:05 VanessaE indeed so
04:06 VanessaE 160-some mods I think
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04:23 VanessaE well, there's plenty of Jan 1. remaining to make said release and still be able to call it a "new years" release.
04:24 VanessaE *looks at clock*  4:24am UTC
04:24 VanessaE lots of time yet.
04:24 VanessaE get it out by 11:59pm UTC and you can still legitimately call it that.
04:25 VanessaE depending on how drunk everyone is ;)
04:26 ShadowNinja Not without a working serverlist.  But if that's fixed by then I'm O.K. with a NY release.
04:27 VanessaE ShadowNinja: I know this sounds like a stupid idea but could you try setting up a temporary server with my game,
04:27 VanessaE http://minetest.digitalaudiocon​cepts.com/VanessaE_Game.tar.bz2
04:27 VanessaE and a substantial copy of the config I posted?
04:27 ShadowNinja I notice there are an awfull lot of %20s in that URL(space).
04:27 VanessaE see what it does then?
04:27 VanessaE (I mention my game because of the sheer number of mods)
04:28 VanessaE with a clean copy of current git HEAD of course.
04:28 VanessaE just for shits and giggleds
04:28 VanessaE -d
04:28 ShadowNinja Um, I tested this with my server's workd and  minimal minetest_game world.  The game can't touch the serverlist other than by modifying settings.
04:28 VanessaE yes I know, but the game's selection of mods DOES affect what info is sent to the master server list.
04:29 VanessaE it could just as easily be a dummy game with 150 fake mods
04:29 ShadowNinja This may be usefull too: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6671633/
04:29 VanessaE as long as it populates the mod list somehow
04:29 ShadowNinja VanessaE: It is populated, and the shutting down message has the same issue.
04:29 VanessaE hm
04:31 * ShadowNinja restores his working directory.
04:33 VanessaE http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6671641/
04:33 VanessaE ^^^ just unquoted it with a little python script I found on the web a while back
04:33 VanessaE not that it's useful at all
04:34 VanessaE wait a minute
04:34 VanessaE um
04:34 VanessaE that can't possibly be a legit request
04:37 VanessaE and all I get when I hit that complex URL with firefox, decoded or not, is "{}"
04:49 ShadowNinja We probably shouldn't be using Json::StyledWriter here, it should be Json::FastWriter.
05:07 hmmmm happy new year
05:11 VanessaE happy new year :)
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15:40 pitriss Hi I want to ask.. Is there any possible way to do backup of MT world without stopping mtserver?
15:41 VanessaE nope.
15:41 VanessaE if the server is running, it might write to the world file while the file is being copied to the backup
15:41 VanessaE stop the server, copy the file, start the server
15:42 VanessaE then do whatever you need to do with the file, e.g. archive/compress it, send it to off-site backup server, etc.
15:43 pitriss ok thank I thought so..
15:43 pitriss *thanks
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16:20 specing VanessaE: how about doing a FS snapshot?
16:20 specing such as what btrfs/zfs provide?
16:25 VanessaE possible
16:25 VanessaE if such a snapshot can lock out changes completely while it's being taken
16:25 Naked happy new year
16:25 VanessaE but I've never used either of those filesystems, couldn't say for sure.
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16:30 sapier VanessaE any new issues with fixed client?
16:30 sapier ähh server
16:35 VanessaE not so far, no
16:35 VanessaE I still use an old client
16:35 VanessaE people are saying it's lighting fast now
16:35 VanessaE lightning*
16:36 sapier ok because I just completed next possible improvement ... a full blown mixed mode TCP/UDP client/server
16:37 VanessaE cooooooool
16:38 sapier https://github.com/sapier/mine​test/tree/tcp_implementation_2 old clients can still connect, but can't use tcp of course ;-)
16:38 VanessaE I may be about at the limit of what my VPS can do though (being as slow as it is, I mean)
16:39 VanessaE so I'm not sure how much further of an improvement I'll be able to see :)
16:39 sapier ok transmission of data trough tcp might reach the performance borders :-)
16:40 VanessaE remind me a little later and we'll give that one a try
16:41 sapier ok next step is adding improved unit tests to judge different solutions, after that one I'm gonna give enet a try ... after refactoring connection mess it's quite straight forward adding/removing new protocols ... and interface gets even more clean with each protocol
16:45 nore sapier, I have a question: is the minetest protocol different for each of tcp, udp, etc, or is it the same each time and there is only a backend to know which network protocol to use?
16:45 sapier I assume when you say "protocol" you actually mean "packet format" no packet format is same for all
16:46 sapier put of course for network transmission there is added an additional envelope around that format
16:48 nore ok... and yes, when I said minetest protocol, I meant packet format
16:50 sapier I guess replacing packet format will never be a quick task no matter how often you refactor
16:51 nore I wonder whether we could save some bandwidth by changing the packet format and dropping compatibility...
16:51 sapier no we couldn't
16:52 sapier as of bandwith usage our current format is quite close to optimum
16:52 nore good then
16:54 sapier we could add compression of course ... but media cant be compressed and other datare are typicaly < 100 bytes so compression overhead might even add additional data
16:54 sapier assuming media is compressed png in most case
16:55 nore and are mapblocks sent compressed?
16:55 nore if not, we could save some space for example, if the mapblock is only stone...
16:55 sapier hmm mapblocks could be an interesting point yes haven't thought about those
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16:56 hmmmm ...
16:56 hmmmm have you people never looked at mapblock serialization?
16:56 sapier but that's finetuning first we need to find a way to decide what future network protocol will be
16:57 nore hmmmm, no, I haven't
16:57 hmmmm also a bare binary protocol isn't close to optimum :)... you can do even better with data prediction
16:57 sapier no I haven't done anything about maps by now hmmmm I usually ask you for those things ;-)
16:57 nore how are they serialized?
16:57 sapier data prediction is something completely different ;-)
16:57 hmmmm have you ever seen Efficient XML?
16:58 sapier xml isn't a binary format ;-)
16:58 hmmmm well
16:58 hmmmm the structure of XML doesn't need to be
16:58 hmmmm binary XML isn't anything new
16:58 hmmmm see infoset
16:58 sapier for what I see we don't have a lot of redundant information in our packets
16:59 hmmmm well Xpath infoset to be precise
16:59 iqualfragile https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1076 merge plz, tested with server using those patches, its still possible to connect using a 0.4.6 client (and one using that code obv.)
16:59 sapier if the information is relevant for the sending entity is out of scope of packet format ;-)
16:59 iqualfragile 0.4.6 is the version of minetest included in jessie
17:00 sapier 1076 is not meant for direct merge
17:01 iqualfragile why not?
17:02 sapier lots of cleanup missing
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17:05 sapier most of that cleanup is in my tcp branch right now but I guess I'm gonna extract it soon
17:05 sapier ok maybe not soon ... first I'm gonna write the protocol unit tests
17:07 hmmmm wouldn't it be a better idea to use clock_gettime() instead of gettimeofday() and just include a wrapper for windows around gettimeofday?
17:07 hmmmm iirc gettimeofday() is poor on performance because on some platforms it does a system call
17:08 sapier give me a hint where in code you are right now
17:08 hmmmm I'm just speaking in general
17:08 hmmmm but the new JSemaphore wait
17:09 hmmmm apache's use of gettimeofday() used to be a really big performance bottleneck on freebsd
17:09 sapier you could be right yes but we need to be carefull about right clock usage (not sure if current way is correct in any case)
17:09 hmmmm don't know if it's still the same way anymore
17:10 sapier especially we need to be sure to use the same clock as semaphore will use for timout
17:12 hmmmm CLOCK_REALTIME should be essentially the same as gettimeofday() but with more resolution
17:13 hmmmm I really don't like sem_timedwait's use of an absolute time, because it can be affected by changing the clock
17:13 sapier I know
17:13 hmmmm gotta wonder what they were thinking when they came up with it
17:13 sapier that's ugly if you have a better idea how to do it you're welcome
17:14 hmmmm the obvious thing is to use a relative time
17:14 hmmmm but you can't go back in time and change the spec
17:14 hmmmm well SysV
17:14 sapier relative time would've been more work to implement ;-)
17:17 sapier hmm semaphore timeouts may use a different timesource as CLOCK_REALTIME too ... :-( another ugly thing
17:18 hmmmm the timesource should be the same, the UTC on-the-wall clock
17:18 sapier "If the Timers option is not supported, the timeout shall be based on the system clock as returned by the time() function."  I just don't know what is meant wit timer option
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17:20 sapier "Timers" is an optional semaphore feature as of IEEE Std 1003.1 ... guess best thing would be use clock_gettime and fallback to gettimeofday ... or just live with errors in case no realtime clock is available ;-)
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18:35 celeron55 i managed to make a ridiculously hacky qmake build of irrlicht in the sailfish sdk 8) i had to write my own wayland backend for irrlicht, to which i hand the window and display pointers from a qt program
18:36 celeron55 this mer/sailfish/whatever sdk is the most obscure thing i have ever seen
18:39 celeron55 it's theoretically possible to use this toolchain with cmake, but the information for actually figuring out how to do that simply doesn't exist, so i guess next i'll try to just cram minetest into this same qmake project
18:47 celeron55 t3
18:47 celeron55 -t3
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19:33 VargaD celeron55: do you have adevice to run mer/salfish?
19:42 celeron55 yes
19:42 celeron55 Using renderer: OpenGL ES 2.0 V@6.0 AU@  (CL@2961769)
19:42 celeron55 Qualcomm
19:42 celeron55 8)
19:44 VargaD nice :)
19:49 celeron55 ../../test3/minetest/mtsrc/src/game.cpp:3477:1: internal compiler error: in extract_insn, at recog.c:2113
19:49 celeron55 ohsit
19:50 celeron55 the sailfish sdk uses gcc 4.6; apparently it's a good idea \o/
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20:44 VargaD Does it compilacted to add support for more "worlds" in a server? (and also possibility to move to other world in the game)
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21:07 VanessaE um, wut>
21:07 VanessaE terminate called after throwing an instance of 'con::PeerNotFoundException'
21:07 VanessaE what():  GetPeer: Peer not found (possible timeout)
21:07 VanessaE /home/minetest/Scripts/minetestserver-survival.sh: line 22: 25197 Aborted
21:12 sfan5 VargaD: shouldn't be that hard, you would just need multiple server environments
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21:36 celeron55 http://c55.me/random/2014-01/t​scrot-2014-01-01_23-34-11.png
21:36 celeron55 lol epic
21:36 VanessaE well at least it RUNS :D
21:37 VanessaE (insert Xzibit/yo dawg here)
21:37 VanessaE all you need now is one of those mods in the game that runs a virtual computer e.g. forth or whatever
21:37 celeron55 i have sacrificed my brain to the god of awful crap
21:37 celeron55 you won't believe what this thing already contains
21:38 hmmmm guys
21:38 hmmmm come on i'd like to make a release this century so we can get new stuff
21:38 VanessaE celeron55: at this point, I think I'd believe almost anything :P
21:38 celeron55 also, this doesn't for example actually work
21:39 celeron55 there's no input system at all in place (no mouse, no keyboard, no tocuh), and sailfish thinks this isn't responding (while it is) and kills it after a few seconds
21:39 celeron55 hmmmm: how about hilighting the people who you actually need for that
21:39 hmmmm I don't know who does it normally
21:40 celeron55 see wiki
21:40 hmmmm I need someone who updates the debian repo, updates the website, and builds the windows versions
21:41 hmmmm sapier and sfan might build windows versions so that's why I'm not singling any one person out for that
21:41 celeron55 i can try the launchpad stuff (but it's kind of a post-release thing)
21:41 hmmmm alright
21:41 hmmmm after release then
21:41 sfan5 hmmmm: s/sapier/xyz/ that is how it was last time
21:41 celeron55 and after that there's plenty of people who can update the website
21:41 celeron55 so you need the windows build and nothing else really
21:41 hmmmm and I also need word from shadowninja to see if the serverlist works or not
21:41 celeron55 and it needs to be tested before tagging
21:41 xyz oh god what's the point of porting it to an os no one uses
21:42 hmmmm xyz, woudl you like to build a windows version for minetest?
21:42 xyz right now? sure
21:42 PilzAdam hmmmm, when do you plan to release?
21:42 hmmmm RIGHT NOW
21:42 hmmmm alright
21:42 hmmmm we have the gang together
21:42 PilzAdam without a feature freeze?
21:42 hmmmm about that
21:42 hmmmm what we need is for the master branch to be in what you could consider a stable state
21:43 hmmmm a feature freeze is just a formal way of telling people to stop adding new shit
21:43 celeron55 xyz: well, why not, if it's doable; sailfish is going to get a lot more users after some time
21:43 hmmmm there has been nothing but bugfixes and very minor enhancements for the past 2, no 3 weeks
21:43 hmmmm s/has/have/
21:43 PilzAdam https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues?lab​els=&amp;milestone=2&amp;page=1&amp;state=open
21:43 sfan5 can we add the tab playerlist (w/o lua) before 0.4.9?
21:43 hmmmm set_sky() is controversial, dunno about that yet
21:43 hmmmm tab playerlist, NO.
21:43 hmmmm it doesn't work
21:43 sfan5 >(w/o lua)
21:44 hmmmm it doesn't matter
21:44 xyz celeron55: dunno; I heard it runs android apps so I see very little point in porting to it; it'd be much better for someone to write a generic touch screen ui instead
21:44 sfan5 mhm, ok
21:44 hmmmm it'll be in the next release
21:44 PilzAdam formspec table needs to get in to make the menu more useable
21:44 hmmmm it's fine if this happens once every month and a half
21:44 celeron55 xyz: well yeah, it runs freeminer just fine
21:44 hmmmm those two bugs, I have no idea about
21:44 PilzAdam it should have been done last release alraedy
21:44 hmmmm well that's alright
21:45 celeron55 xyz: i mean... buildcraft
21:45 hmmmm it needed to get in a more finished state then
21:45 celeron55 xyz: but i want to learn the toolchain of this thing so i might just as well do it with minetest
21:45 hmmmm and then it was enhanced and now it's in a semi-broken state
21:45 xyz I see
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21:45 hmmmm I need to consult with sfan more about that
21:45 hmmmm so PilzAdam, bump the version of minetest_game and tag it, would you?
21:46 PilzAdam lets wait for the win builds first
21:46 hmmmm sure
21:46 hmmmm man, I wanted to do this last night
21:46 * sfan5 makes a win build
21:47 PilzAdam https://github.com/minetest/minetest​/blob/master/doc/menu_lua_api.txt#L1 <- can we get this right this time?
21:47 sfan5 umm.. aren't windows builds pointless now when the version was not bumped yet?
21:47 hmmmm yeah
21:47 PilzAdam sfan5, to see if it builds at all
21:48 hmmmm I'm doing that in a second
21:48 hmmmm that also
21:48 hmmmm and PilzAdam, yes I did that
21:49 hmmmm so I'll push the version bump if windows compiles successfully
21:50 PilzAdam is the changelog up to date this time? the one for 0.4.8 is still not updated
21:51 hmmmm I guess not
21:51 hmmmm who cares about the changelog, we can do that later
21:51 hmmmm or whoever does the changelog
21:51 PilzAdam "we can do that later" <- see 0.4.8 changelog
21:51 PilzAdam nobody cares about that after a release
21:52 hmmmm just point to the URL of the commit log
21:52 VargaD nice window manager celeron55
21:52 PilzAdam we write the changelog for users who dont understand / dont have enough time to look through the commit log
21:53 sfan5 hmmmm: builds successfully
21:54 hmmmm great
21:54 celeron55 VargaD: it's the best one out there; i recently tried gnome, kde and mate when i bought a new computer and those just sucked 8)
21:55 hmmmm wtf is with the -dirty thing
21:55 hmmmm that's giving me problems
21:55 VargaD Which one you are using celeron55?
21:56 PilzAdam it appends that if you have uncommited changes in the git repo
21:57 celeron55 VargaD: this is icewm, with the glorious yellowmotif theme; almost default configuration; let's not offtopic more
21:58 hmmmm alright I can't get it
21:58 hmmmm I tried refreshing the cmake, I tried make cleaning, I tried everything
21:58 VargaD sorry, I was just curious, btw I'm running awesome
21:58 PilzAdam hmmmm, should I try it?
21:59 hmmmm hrmm
21:59 hmmmm I dunno
21:59 hmmmm it'll probably work for you
21:59 hmmmm something is busted with my own setup
21:59 celeron55 VargaD: awesome is probably equally designed for real use 8)
22:00 xyz hmmmm: just edit cmake/modules/GenerateVersion.cmake
22:00 hmmmm that's the hacky way though
22:01 xyz this shit is so annoying though
22:01 hmmmm I know
22:01 hmmmm I want to soo get rid of it
22:01 PilzAdam rm .git  and build
22:01 xyz that's the easiest way
22:01 xyz if we're releasing in a rush anyway
22:02 hmmmm oh
22:02 hmmmm you need to make the tag first
22:03 hmmmm got it
22:03 PilzAdam https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/commi​t/ed640d5daaed2f9781ac9623355800476510a08b
22:04 hmmmm I already did the same exact thing
22:05 PilzAdam no, you didnt
22:05 PilzAdam there is a "=" missing in doc/menu_lua_api.txt
22:05 hmmmm oh come on
22:05 hmmmm one =?
22:06 PilzAdam .... and you already taged it without waiting for MSVC build
22:06 hmmmm you needed to tag it in order for GenerateVersion to produce the right version string
22:06 PilzAdam only if you build in a git repo
22:06 xyz firstly you need to confirm that msvc build works
22:06 hmmmm sfan5 did that
22:07 PilzAdam no, sfan5 builds with mingw
22:07 hmmmm well
22:10 xyz by the way, was the subsections thing by celeron55 accepted?
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22:22 xyz I've uploaded my build to github release draft
22:31 * sfan5 is still building
22:42 sfan5 uploaded mine!
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23:02 VanessaE still about 1 hour to go if you guys still wanna get that release done on Jan 1 (it is 23:03 UTC)
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