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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2013-12-08

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Time Nick Message
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03:50 hmmmm hey what's up with this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/22dbbf0a6fc9547f0dbdb7f6076337b8c6acd48b
03:51 hmmmm that's one giant race condition
03:51 hmmmm not that it'll crash anything or cause invalid data accesses, it's just that it'll work about a third of the time
03:51 hmmmm who thought it was a good idea to commit this
03:52 * hmmmm looks at ShadowNinja
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05:04 VanessaE thexyz, ShadowNinja: what's the status of that test with the parallax/bumpmap test that caused the shaders to turn black?  Seems like you guys found a work around?
05:04 VanessaE -test
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06:52 nore this should fix the shaders: https://github.com/Novatux/minetest/tree/shaders
06:54 nore is anyone here?
06:59 nore there: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1041
06:59 nore hmmmm, any thoughts on it?
07:14 hmmmm shouldn't you be asking RealBadAngel that?
07:14 nore he isn't there right now... but I mean, about code things, etc
07:15 hmmmm it looks fine to me but I'm really not qualified to say whether or not it's a good fix
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10:02 thexyz VanessaE: I have no idea
10:03 nore thexyz, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1041
10:03 nore about the shaders thing
10:03 thexyz alright
10:04 nore could you tell me what you think of it?
10:06 thexyz I don't know, I haven't worked with shaders at all
10:07 nore nor did I before yesterday... but code-wise, is there anything to be changed?
10:08 thexyz how would I know then? I guess it's ok if it works for you
10:08 nore I guess I'll have to wait for RBA to join then...
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11:35 specing Is there a comprehensive guide to minetest.conf somewhere?
11:35 specing I am specifically interested in the mapgen variables
11:37 specing In the end, I would like larger caves that aren't connected between eachother, fewer cave entrances on the ground and more frequent ore
11:38 specing As far as I can learn from its name, 'indev' is the most recent map generator (and likely most featurefull?)
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11:45 specing Could not open file of texture: character.png
11:45 specing Loaded mesh: npc_character.b3d
11:45 specing Segmentation fault
11:57 specing ^ on git
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12:10 specing Is "Sky" proller's server?
12:10 specing It looks really effed up
12:12 john_minetest specing: There is a really good guide to minetest.conf: minetest.conf.example
12:13 sapier specing ignore the names
12:13 sapier indev isn't latest, latest unstable is v7 (atm) indev is modified v6
12:43 specing Ah okay
13:04 troller specing, my
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13:18 sapier argh reading light information from vmanip data is a pain
13:23 sapier and lua 5.1 doesn't support bitoperations...
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14:16 specing troller: how did you manage to generate such a weird map @ Sky?
14:16 Akien joined #minetest-dev
14:16 specing Also is there a normal part of that map?
14:16 troller normal map at 0,0,0
14:17 troller its only adjusted noiseparams
14:17 troller find point zero teleport
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14:21 specing I have mese, can I make my own teleporter?
14:22 specing or a helicopter
14:23 specing Ah I see it has ufos
14:24 specing not sure if I have enough obsidian to make it
14:25 specing sqrt distance to 0,0,0 is 40000
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14:41 hmmmm sapier, what's painful?
14:41 hmmmm local day = lightval % 16; local night = math.floor(lightval / 16)
14:42 hmmmm or rather local night = (lightval - day) / 16
14:42 hmmmm the other alternative is that I create a zillion tables for every call
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15:56 nore anyone ok for https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/227 ?
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16:01 john_minetest Hey, that video is cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcuHy63T5gY
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16:05 specing boats are seriously uncontrollable
16:05 specing I think troller 's server is full of lag
16:11 iqualfragile specing: nah, poats realy have some kind of controlability probem
16:13 hmmmm hmmmm
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16:29 sapier hmmmm painful because lua doesn't support bitoperations
16:30 hmmmm what's wrong with what I just wrote?
16:30 sapier lightval day and lightval night are stored within a single byte ;-)
16:30 nore sapier, either add bit32... or use a pure-Lua implementation of binary things...
16:31 hmmmm yes, but what's wrong with what I just wrote..?
16:31 sapier you don't have those values in vmanip ;-)
16:31 hmmmm yes you do
16:31 sapier where?
16:31 hmmmm local lightvals = vmanip:get_light_data()
16:32 sapier returns light and day as single value
16:32 hmmmm local lightval = lightvals[area:index(x, y, z)]
16:32 sapier still thats a byte value containing day and night ;-)
16:32 hmmmm ....
16:32 hmmmm did you not read what I wrote
16:32 hmmmm [09:41 AM] <hmmmm> local day = lightval % 16; local night = math.floor(lightval / 16)
16:32 hmmmm [09:42 AM] <hmmmm> or rather local night = (lightval - day) / 16
16:32 hmmmm [09:42 AM] <hmmmm> the other alternative is that I create a zillion tables for every call
16:32 sapier oh :-)
16:33 sapier that's tooo simple hmmmm :-) can't be correct ;-)
16:33 hmmmm do you not understand basic bit operations
16:34 sapier I know it's correct ;-P yet it's still to simple ;-)
16:34 hmmmm if you can come up with a better way to do that please notify me
16:35 sapier next thing after day and night values is calculating timed values ... any suggestions to do core code more simple?
16:36 hmmmm where's that algorithm I pointed out yesterday?
16:36 hmmmm oh daynightratio.h
16:37 sapier that one :-)
16:37 hmmmm these kinds of things we don't need a separate API for since the transition between Lua and C and back again is probably way slower
16:37 sapier I guess the time normalization is more complex than it's required to be
16:37 hmmmm it is
16:37 hmmmm each of those table values have a difference of 250
16:37 hmmmm so I guess you can do
16:38 thexyz has anyone actually benchmarked it? "the transition between Lua and C and back again is probably way slower"
16:38 hmmmm local values = {150, 150, 250, 350, 500, ...}; so on
16:38 hmmmm values[(time_of_day - 4375) / 250]
16:39 hmmmm instead of a linear search like it does
16:39 sapier thexyz no need to benchmark luajited operations against mountains of code to transfere data from luastack to c++ and back
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16:41 thexyz of course, no need, at all
16:41 hmmmm I suppose that we'd have to do all the measurement from within the core in some callback without other crap messing up the results
16:42 sapier on pure number crashing luajit is almost equal to c++ code
16:42 sapier I verified that in pathfinder
16:42 sapier -crashiing + crunching
16:43 hmmmm are you able to coax it to use integer operations?
16:43 hmmmm did you find a way to check what luajit actually compiles it down into?
16:43 hmmmm that would be helpful
16:43 sapier I don't think so luas numbers are always floating point
16:43 sapier but we don't have much non fp values in minetest
16:43 hmmmm that might not be true, there's a "lua_Integer" type
16:44 sapier is there?
16:44 hmmmm yes we do, all array indicies ever
16:44 sapier positions are floa
16:44 sapier t
16:45 sapier mapnodes are integers of course
16:45 sapier ok but my current task is reading light values from vmanip ... and reading light values directly from map is doubtless slow
16:46 sapier at least if you have to read more then a single node
16:47 hmmmm well
16:47 hmmmm that's no longer a problem as of a couple weeks ago
16:48 hmmmm i originally put the bulk light data functions in for paramat but they're really useful here too
16:48 sapier sorry but what happend a couple of weeks ago?
16:48 hmmmm I added get_light_data and set_light_data to vmanip
16:49 hmmmm if you're having any *real* problems using them please let me know
16:49 sapier oh ok that one actually adds the possibility to do what I try to do now
16:50 sapier the only thing I'm not sure what to do is that light source code in ... but maybe that information is already available in lua too I didn't look for it by now
16:51 hmmmm it isn't as far as I'm aware
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16:51 hmmmm it's really not that bad
16:51 hmmmm just translate day_to_night_ratio into lua literally and then make optimizations where you can
16:51 hmmmm time_to_daynight_ratio i mean
16:53 sapier ok I guess I now understand what that strange time calculation on top of that function does
16:53 hmmmm it translates what time of day it is to the amount of light there is in a non-linear fashion
16:54 ShadowNinja hmmmm: Can you add get_param2_data()? That way WE wouldn't have to abuse schematics for saving things with facedir and the like.
16:54 hmmmm ShadowNinja, did you see what I was saying before about that pull request you merged a few days ago
16:54 sapier no that calculation on top shifts daytime to be able to use a single mapping table
16:54 ShadowNinja hmmmm: And where's the race condition in that?
16:55 hmmmm the block isn't generated on time before the player spawns
16:55 hmmmm it just so happens that a cave spawns right underneath the player and he falls
16:55 hmmmm or maybe a tree gets spawned there from the border of a neighboring chunk
16:55 ShadowNinja Ah.
16:55 hmmmm basically what i'm saying is that guy's attempts to get around this are all futile
16:56 ShadowNinja How whould you recommend fixing it?
16:56 hmmmm if it were simple, spawning would've been fixed a LONG time ago
16:57 hmmmm if you actually wanted to FIX it you'd have to add infrastructure
16:57 hmmmm i.e. a way to prioritize chunk generation and a way to block on it
16:57 hmmmm if you want to freeze up ServerThread to wait for map generation to finish, though, it's your call...
16:58 hmmmm that could be a really long time
16:58 hmmmm then you'd have people happily building away on a server and some shmuck joins and he ends up spawning somewhere that isn't generated and all of a sudden the entire server comes to a screeching halt and everybody says
16:59 hmmmm "welp, it seems like someone's trying to join the server, we've gotta stop building until he's done"
16:59 ShadowNinja That's obviously non-optimal. The current one seems to work pretty well, those spawning issues should be very rare...
16:59 ShadowNinja But did the other method not have these issues?
17:00 hmmmm the other method assumed that CONTENT_IGNORE was a solid block and so it'd count against the number of air nodes
17:00 hmmmm so if the block wasn't generated yet it'd go look around for other places that do have it generated
17:02 specing boats give my screen a knockback effect
17:02 ShadowNinja Well accepting only air made me spawn about 20 nodes above a ocean far from spawn...
17:08 nore can someone check that please? https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/227
17:11 ShadowNinja nore: Mods shouldn't depend on hacky_swap_node, and swap_node should be local.
17:11 hmmmm the method you just merged doesn't really help anything at all
17:11 nore it was not local before... but I can change that too
17:12 hmmmm it might seem like it does but findSpawnPos already does an emergeBlock() on the place it's querying which makes the emergeBlock calls in Map::findGroundLevel completely redundant
17:12 hmmmm EFFECTIVELY the only thing that patch does is
17:12 hmmmm 1). increase the maximum spawn height by a lot
17:12 nore ShadowNinja, changed
17:13 hmmmm 2). revert back to the old way of finding the ground level
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17:13 hmmmm #2 is bad because again, if that piece of the map doesn't exist yet, you're not going to find the ground level by probing!
17:14 hmmmm so you need to rely on the map generator's findGroundLevel
17:14 nore ShadowNinja, do you know a bit about shaders?
17:14 hmmmm and no, it help you spawn outside of trees or caves, that's just the reality of it
17:14 hmmmm I say we revert it
17:14 ShadowNinja nore: No. Your patch looks OK to me, but better check with RBA.
17:15 nore and can I merge the minetest_game thing?
17:15 celeron55 there should probably be some queue of players that need a spawn position when the map isn't loaded yet, and the server would reposition them once it gets to loading or generating a suitable position
17:15 hmmmm it won't help you*
17:16 nore ShadowNinja, ^
17:18 ShadowNinja nore: That looks good.
17:18 hmmmm so here's the deal
17:19 hmmmm revert 22dbbf0a6fc9547f0dbdb7f6076337b8c6acd48b and I'll modify Map::getGroundLevel to use a mixture of the old probe method and use the new query-mapgen method if the former fails because it's not generated
17:20 hmmmm and eventually I'll put in an async emergeBlock callback which we can trigger the remainder of the spawning process on
17:22 ShadowNinja That seems good.
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17:29 sapier does read_from_map read node as well as light data?
17:29 hmmmm it loads the map contents into the voxel manipulator
17:30 hmmmm the various get_*data functions just put the stuff into table format so lua can do something with it
17:30 sapier ok thanks that's the answer I was looking for
17:32 sapier light works partly now ... obviously light sources are missing ... and there seems to be another effect where voxellight is more then core light data ... not sure what this is
17:33 sapier could be missing sunlight_propagates check
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18:09 sapier any idea how to match vmanip and real world data?
18:10 hmmmm ??
18:11 sapier local voxel_light_data = voxeldata:get_light_data()
18:11 sapier local node_data = voxeldata:get_data()
18:11 sapier local voxelhelper = VoxelArea:new(minp,maxp)
18:11 hmmmm noo noo noo.  minp and maxp is the generated area
18:11 hmmmm you want the area that was emerged into the voxelmanip
18:11 sapier wait
18:11 hmmmm (the two positions you get from read_from_map)
18:11 sapier local voxeldata = minetest.get_voxel_manip()
18:11 sapier voxeldata:read_from_map(minp,maxp)
18:12 sapier missed those lines I have them before the others
18:12 hmmmm read_from_map returns two parameters
18:12 sapier now doing  local raw_node_data = node_data[helper:indexp(pos)]
18:12 sapier ok I guess i need to check those?
18:12 hmmmm yup, ya sure do
18:13 hmmmm check out some voxelmanip reference code
18:14 sapier not sure if I like that interface ... it passes all that data even as it may be useless for me
18:14 hmmmm i didn't come up with it
18:14 sapier but for some situations it may be usefull to have at least some of the data you actually wanted to get
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18:15 hmmmm if you want to get a 2x2x2 sized area of block data from voxelmanip
18:15 hmmmm that's fine, it'll get that
18:15 hmmmm but it needs to get all of the containing chunks
18:15 hmmmm this is why voxelarea exists
18:15 hmmmm to simplify that
18:16 hmmmm eminp, emaxp = voxeldata:read_from_map(minp, maxp)
18:16 hmmmm voxelphelper = VoxelArea:new(eminp, emaxp)
18:17 sapier I try
18:17 sapier nope still doesn't match
18:18 sapier seem to be less errors
18:18 sapier RAW: 0 NodeVM: default:dirt NodeDirect: air VL: 0 ND:2 Pos: (25,4,-358)
18:19 sapier of course light is calculated to 0 by vmanip data as it's dirt
18:19 hmmmm you're simply doing something wrong
18:19 hmmmm voxelmanip at this point has all the bugs worked out
18:20 sapier I don't think anyone would recognize a shift
18:20 hmmmm why don't you copy and paste your source code you're working with to pastebin
18:20 sapier especialy as ppl usualy use it to modify things and not to just read data
18:21 sapier https://gist.github.com/sapier/7861582
18:23 sapier the pos calculation is exactly what core does on convertin float vector to int vector
18:24 hmmmm oh you're rounding things
18:24 hmmmm if you floored all of that, what happens then?
18:25 sapier let me try again with those vmanip return values
18:26 hmmmm well in this case it may be that VoxelArea is bugged
18:26 sapier ok first try (not rounding anything --> no change
18:26 hmmmm it treats everything as if they were integers
18:27 sapier doing floor without 0.5 doesn't help either
18:27 sapier ok maybe I should round minp and maxp first too
18:27 hmmmm yes
18:28 hmmmm please round things before passing them on to voxelmanip or voxelarea
18:30 sapier no change
18:31 hmmmm I hope you realize that origpos is bound to pos
18:31 hmmmm they're references, not actual v3fs
18:32 sapier ok that wasn't intended
18:34 sapier ok that may have done the trick ... any chance to get the rounding to indexp and index?
18:34 sapier stop
18:34 hmmmm that would compromise speed for everybody who uses them as integers
18:34 sapier got the error again
18:34 ShadowNinja vector.new() and vector.round() may help...
18:36 hmmmm hmm
18:36 hmmmm well the code looks fine
18:36 hmmmm it's not like your particular use case is unique any way
18:37 RealBadAngel hi all
18:38 ShadowNinja hmmmm: So, what about get_param2_data()?
18:38 sapier unique? I want to verify environment information within lua without having to callback to c++ for each single node ... I intend to us this for mob environment check too ... but It's only usefull if I can match get_node() values to vmanip node values
18:38 sapier +e
18:39 hmmmm ShadowNinja, I'll think about it
18:39 sapier and as long as vmanip keeps telling me there is stone where get_node tells air ... I've got a problem ;-)
18:39 hmmmm well it's not magic
18:39 hmmmm VoxelManip is really simple
18:40 sapier seems to be that simple that it's hard to understand it's issues
18:41 sapier most time information seems to match but there are rare cases where they don't as noone is moving around in this world there can't ne any mapgen artifacts in there
18:41 ShadowNinja sapier: assert((minetest.get_node(pos).name == "air") == (data[area:index(pos.x, pos.y, pos.z)] == c_air))
18:42 sapier assert doesn't work in minetest ... and I get those missmatches when I try to calculate light
18:43 ShadowNinja sapier: How doesn't it work?
18:43 ShadowNinja (assert that is)
18:43 ShadowNinja The backtrace issue is fixed, if that's what you are refering to.
18:43 sapier if you do an assert it's pure chance you really see correct error (at least if there are more at once)
18:44 sapier at least until yesterdays core ... didn't update today
18:48 ShadowNinja Um, it isn't any worse than doing something like error("Assertation failed").  What you were talking about yesterday are programer errors that the interpreter can not warn you about until they actually result in a crash.
18:48 sapier no it isn't but I don't need an error to see the missmatch ;-)
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18:50 sapier ok as I don't know that code in vmanip I'm not gonna fix it now ... as long as there ain't anyone telling me what I'm doing wrong I'll consinder vmanip as broken ... it's usefull for spawning but useless for speeding up environment checks
18:53 ShadowNinja sapier: Update your gist.
18:54 sapier updated
18:55 sapier one last try ... traditional position rounding instead of core conversion format
18:55 ShadowNinja sapier: What does the light_around tabe contain?
18:56 sapier light_around definitions as of specified for adv_spawning ... not relevant to vmanip issues
18:57 sapier no traditional rounding doesn't seem to work too
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18:58 ShadowNinja sapier: You are passing i to get_node_light().
19:00 ShadowNinja sapier: Oh, two i's. You should change that to i and j or similar. And get_node_light takes a foating point number from 0 to 1.
19:00 sapier oops another issue yes
19:00 sapier thanks .. but still not the vmanip issue
19:01 sapier I pinpointed a occasion where vmanip tells default:water_source while direct tells papyrus ... direct is right of course
19:01 sapier and next default water is 2 nodes below and one to left or front
19:02 sapier so it can't even be a off by one issue
19:04 sapier ok lets try writing a simple test mod ... :-/
19:04 ShadowNinja Well, your rounding is odd...
19:04 sapier that's what core does
19:04 ShadowNinja -10 -> -9
19:05 sapier but it doesn't work for any other variant of rounding
19:05 ShadowNinja Er, -11.
19:06 sapier yes seems to be wrong but as I told math.floor(x+0.5) doesn't work either
19:06 ShadowNinja sapier: origpos is never restored from what I see. Use vector.round, it copies it too.
19:07 ShadowNinja That turns 20 lines into one...
19:08 sapier I'll try too but I don't expect it to change anything
19:08 nore RealBadAngel, so, can I merge #1041?
19:09 ShadowNinja sapier: > =round(round(round(round(-10)))) --> -14 Does that seem right?
19:09 sapier as expected no change
19:09 ShadowNinja sapier: Update the gist.
19:09 sapier that's only been an attempt to use lua code as close to core as possible
19:10 RealBadAngel nore, yes, the code is fine, i will use that idea to further configure the shaders
19:10 ShadowNinja If the core does that then is's wrong. But it seems more likely that your mis-reading something.
19:10 nore ok, merging it now except if anyone is against it...
19:10 sapier updated
19:11 sapier I guess what core does works due to int/float mechanics of c
19:11 hmmmm mm oh you do realize that C rounds to -inf right?
19:11 hmmmm not to 0
19:11 nore ok, I'm going to merge the shader thing
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19:13 ShadowNinja sapier: The rounding  should be above the contains check.
19:14 sapier what are you talking about hmmmm?
19:16 ShadowNinja sapier: You try to convert a 0-24000 time range to a 0-24000 time range as if it were a 0-1 range.
19:16 ShadowNinja (170 & 171)
19:17 thexyz nore: uh, you shouldn't create pull requests from master branch if you plan to change it
19:17 thexyz nore: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/606 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/1041
19:21 hmmmm sapier:  err, I mean toward zero, but you round toward -inf
19:21 hmmmm if you check the actual code in the core, after it does the +- 0.5 adjustment, it rounds toward zero
19:22 hmmmm because it implicitly converts float to int
19:23 hmmmm can you try doing math.ceil for the less-than-0 case?
19:27 ShadowNinja local function round_to_zero(x) if x > 0 then return math.floor(x) else return math.ceil(x) end end <-- Something like that should make it a lot shorter.
19:28 sapier trying ceil rounding ... shadow even if time was wrong the node still should be same ;-P
19:30 sapier the rounding result seems to be more correct with ceil but vmanip <-> real world matching aint better
19:30 sapier I try to create a simple mod only checking consistency
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19:51 sapier ok guess I found the main issue
19:51 sapier why does it alway break once I said this
19:56 hmmmm well what was the main issue?  is it valid or did you just think you found an issue?
19:56 hmmmm because it could be that there are multiple unrelated problems
19:56 sapier VoxelHelper:new doesn't complain about invalid parameters
19:56 hmmmm of course not
19:56 hmmmm and you mean VoxelArea btw
19:57 sapier I do but having nil as a parameter that is required is an error to me ;-)
19:57 hmmmm the entire voxelcrap was made with speed in mind, not ease of use
19:58 sapier ok for my simple testmod vector.round() seems to be valid
19:59 sapier sorry speed in mind is not a excuse for skipping error check in a function called ONCE ;-)
20:00 nore thexyz, ?
20:00 nore <thexyz> nore: uh, you shouldn't create pull requests from master branch if you plan to change it <-- about that
20:00 hmmmm well I was opposed to error checking in general for that reason
20:01 sapier especialy if parameters are passed in a non intuitive way as VoxelArea:new({MinEdge=got_minp,MaxEdge=got_maxp})
20:01 sapier btw () is missing in lua_api.txt
20:01 hmmmm you can skip that
20:01 hmmmm VoxelArea:new{} is valid
20:02 sapier realy with {}?
20:02 hmmmm shockingly yes
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20:02 hmmmm must be some oddity of lua syntax that I accidentally discovered
20:02 sapier where's that syntax from?
20:03 hmmmm shrug
20:03 sapier never seen anything like that
20:03 hmmmm try it
20:03 sapier and how to passt the edges?
20:03 nore thexyz, if that was about my force loading pull request, it is because I made that pull request when I didn't even know how to use git...
20:04 nore and IIRC I haven't been able to change the branch without creating another pull
20:05 celeron55 sapier: yes, you can leave out () from a function call that has a single table argument
20:05 sapier that one should be forbidden ;-)
20:07 kaeza works for strings too
20:08 sapier I'm working with lua for 2 years now and I'm still astonished what strange constructs are possible
20:08 kaeza it's some wonky way to support "extensions" to the syntax, like require "foo"
20:08 hmmmm scripting languages in general
20:08 hmmmm I've grown to strongly hate scripting languages
20:08 sapier but still Imho new should not pass without error if MinEdge and MaxEdge are missing
20:09 hmmmm at work I have a side project that I have to do JS and python for and it's horrid
20:09 sapier ok seems now I don't get node missmatches any longer ... *crossing fingers*
20:11 celeron55 that particular lua shortcut is probably due to how they based lua on some older projects and wanted the old file format to be loadable as a lua script
20:12 celeron55 here's a very old text about lua in which they describe it in an... interesting way: http://www.lua.org/semish94.html
20:13 celeron55 it's about the first ever version i guess 8)
20:13 sapier do we really want to encourage users to use that old syntax?
20:16 celeron55 (of course it also for what kaeza said; fancier syntax; eg. if you implement a class system in lua, it's very useful)
20:16 celeron55 sapier: probably not
20:17 kaeza someone on #lua posted the other day a C++-like syntax, like class "Foo" : extends { ... }
20:17 kaeza with some clever constructs :P
20:17 sapier I'd not be surprised if others would assume that to be an error too ... at least you wonder what is meant by it
20:18 sapier I missinterpreted it to be pseudocode
20:18 kaeza err Java-like rather
20:18 celeron55 sapier: and it's of course completely out of question to actually learn the language one is using?
20:18 celeron55 one can read the "programming in lua" book in one afternoon and it's super useful
20:18 sapier I assume you know any special construct and meaning of c? :-)
20:19 hmmmm when you hate the language you're working with you don't necessarily want to read a book on it
20:19 celeron55 you can know practically everything about lua
20:19 sapier there are very less languages where you have only one possible way to do something ... most ppl don't memorize any single possible way if there are hundreds ;-)
20:20 celeron55 hmmmm: it helps because then you are able to avoid the pitfalls and that way be more happy
20:20 sapier I don't deny this would be usefull ... yet it's like backups ... everyone knows you should do them ;-)
20:21 lanxu Wait? reading "programming in lua" in one afternoon... And understand everything? :)
20:21 sapier and memorize everything
20:22 PilzAdam hmmmm, how can you "hate" a programming language?
20:22 celeron55 lanxu: well at least you'll immediately recall single argument functions from the book when seeing them elsewhere
20:22 sapier celeron page 10 line 5 word 2? :-)
20:22 hmmmm PilzAdam, easily
20:22 celeron55 sapier: if that's how you read books, then i understand you hate it
20:22 celeron55 you probably also make backups by copying files by hand
20:23 celeron55 anyway!
20:23 sapier I didn't say I hate it thats hmmmms saying... I've seen worse languages ;-)
20:23 sapier scheme for example
20:23 kaeza I don't see anything wrong with implementing foo{...} as convenience for foo({...})
20:23 celeron55 just change the docs to not suggest the parenthesis-less syntax
20:23 kaeza fun fact: foo:bar() is the same as foo.bar(foo), except 'foo' is only evaluated once
20:23 jin_xi lets rely on things like that
20:24 sapier I knew that kaeza ... that feature is particulary usefull :-)
20:24 celeron55 kaeza: so can we detect the evaluation count and screw people up?
20:25 kaeza no I mean, if you do foo[bleh].bar:baz(), it does less lookups than foo[bleh].bar.baz(foo[bleh].bar)
20:26 celeron55 i know you mean that
20:26 kaeza oookay, moving on...
20:26 kaeza :P
20:26 sapier yea I thought about fixing mobf to use that syntax ... but was to lazy to do by now :-)
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20:30 sapier ok I may have succeeded in fetching light values from vmanip
20:30 sapier ... light values are floored uppon return to lua
20:42 sapier https://gist.github.com/sapier/7863517 that code might be usefull for others ... what do you think about adding it to builtin?
20:43 hmmmm possibly
20:43 hmmmm if I were you I'd compare it against computing in the core and see what's better
20:44 sapier good Idea as I have identical code here I may even get a valid result
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21:20 sapier ok ... answer to is it worth using voxel is a absolute exact and non missinterpretable "maybe" :-/
21:21 sapier if you only want to read a single(up to some value) light value core is way faster ... but as of some threshold voxelmanip starts to become faster
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21:28 sapier wow ... guess there's a situation where core lighting really looses "Comparing core to voxel : 1805.3405761719 <--> 0.0048828125"
21:33 sapier forget about it ... benchmark error :-)
21:56 sapier ok without luajit voxelmanip light isn't at all a competitior ... with luajit you need to check very high numbers of nodes to gain some benefit ... but there's way more spread then expected
21:57 sapier very high numbers == >10k nodes
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22:41 hmmmm by "core lighting" you mean get_node_light()?
22:42 hmmmm also you're taking into account the C->lua switching, right?  you need to benchmark in the core to figure that one out
22:56 sapier yes I do
22:57 sapier why do I need to benchmark in core? I'm interested in how much time to get that information to lua mod
22:58 sapier if whole spawning is done withing core that'll be way faster of course
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23:01 emptty ShadowNinja: you said a while ago that the furnace should use minetest.swap_node. Could you please be more specific? That bug of blinking furnaces is driving me crazy
23:01 emptty (but I'm a complete noob with the minetest codebase)
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23:07 hmmmm sapier, well you also need to consider that an 80*80*80 chunk is 512000 nodes, which is way more than 10k
23:09 sapier yes I tried 21*21*21 (distance 10)
23:09 hmmmm is this the number of checks that need to be done for a single spawn?
23:09 sapier but if you don't have luajit that value ise more 1 milion then 10k
23:10 sapier no I increased the number till I found the point where core and voxel have been equal
23:10 hmmmm to be fair, VoxelManip was designed for way bigger jobs than 21x21x21
23:11 hmmmm and not for get_node_light() which is pretty lightweight compared to setNode()
23:11 sapier worst thing I have right now is 7*7*7
23:12 sapier true
23:12 sapier wrong tool for this job
23:12 hmmmm see, the thing about VoxelManip is that you're able to check multiple things about that node at once
23:12 hmmmm like the content as well
23:13 hmmmm so you can have one voxelmanip object on that area, find the surface, spawn on a specific node, with a specific number of nodes around it, and then check the light values, etc.
23:13 sapier doing all of those things requires way less then 10k nodes
23:14 sapier counting of nodes can be done completely in core no need to transfere all data up (most time)
23:14 sapier more relevant is you can't check for objects more then 32 nodes away
23:15 sapier e.g. if you want mobs to be rare
23:16 sapier if you do on a single spawn you can use spawn chance ... but if you do continous spawning it's just a matter of time till that mob will be everywhere
23:18 hmmmm so it's just based on the proximity to other mobs
23:18 hmmmm Minecraft has a "mobcap" that deals more with the number of mob objects in the loaded area
23:18 sapier yes but that does only work for distances below activity range ... need to find some way to work that one around
23:19 hmmmm see, we could do that instead if it weren't for the current crappy block loading scheme
23:19 sapier current adv_spawning can already do mobcap
23:20 sapier one possibility is to store unloaded mob locations within a separate metadata file
23:20 sapier do you know how fast lua's hashtable implementation is? does it do linear search?
23:21 hmmmm hahaha
23:21 hmmmm lua's hashtable implementation called a "table"
23:21 sapier ok so linear search :-)
23:21 hmmmm if lua really did linear searching for table lookups the result would be an unusable toy language
23:21 sapier no linear search?
23:22 sapier if not it might be an option
23:22 hmmmm I'm saying there's no way that Lua could possibly be using linear search without the performance being even MORE dogshit than it is currently
23:22 sapier ok ok :-)
23:23 sapier guess we really need a real on_deactivate callback for entities
23:25 hmmmm ugh, I need to add a vector to the Mapgen class but I really don't like the idea of adding yet another non-POD datatype...
23:25 hmmmm or no, it is POD right now.
23:28 ShadowNinja emptty: swap_node doesn't reset the formspec. It's added in master now.
23:30 emptty ShadowNinja: so, there is no workaround for 0.4.8?
23:31 ShadowNinja emptty: Well, you could manually apply the patches to the core and game. But not without modifying it.
23:36 emptty ShadowNinja: will this one be enough? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/d879a539cd19ddd1ee34afec2512fb2238de2822
23:37 Exio4 you need the patch for minetest_game too
23:37 ShadowNinja emptty: You'll also want the doc fix, and the..^
23:37 emptty I don't really want the doc fix for now ;)
23:38 emptty That one? https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/com​mit/47a49eccf4bd59427fa7486fd413e6eade1db896
23:40 Exio4 yeah
23:52 emptty let me try it :)
23:53 emptty But that's quite a huge bug, by the way. It kinda ruins the gameplay.
23:54 emptty don't you think that it could justify a 0.4.8.1 or something?

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