| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
celeron55 |
pitriss: what version of iceweasel is that? |
| 00:00 |
celeron55 |
looks old as hell 8) |
| 00:00 |
pitriss |
and maybe also some really thin border around those dropdowns could be nice (do bottom border under menu and then border around left, bottom and right side of dropdown) It will split menu from content:) |
| 00:00 |
pitriss |
celeron55: old.. 3.6, because I don't like those new versions:) |
| 00:01 |
pitriss |
I want to have iceweasel and not chrome clone:D |
| 00:01 |
celeron55 |
i think firefox still is pretty good |
| 00:02 |
pitriss |
Not ui copied from chrome/chromium |
| 00:02 |
pitriss |
I don't like tabs above addressbar etc.. |
| 00:03 |
celeron55 |
oops, now i broke it completely |
| 00:05 |
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| 00:05 |
celeron55 |
pitriss: how about now? |
| 00:06 |
pitriss |
Now it is bit better, mods dropdown is singleline now but needs to be positioned to the left.. I will post screenshot |
| 00:08 |
pitriss |
http://chytrex.wjake.com/crap/mt-site1.png |
| 00:09 |
celeron55 |
now? |
| 00:10 |
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| 00:11 |
celeron55 |
pitriss: please be quick because i'm going to sleep just about now |
| 00:11 |
pitriss |
same |
| 00:11 |
VanessaE |
ew. |
| 00:11 |
pitriss |
celeron55: ah sorry:) |
| 00:12 |
VanessaE |
is it supposed to be so plain? |
| 00:12 |
VanessaE |
(the hovered links look fine to me, btw) |
| 00:12 |
VanessaE |
(ff 25) |
| 00:13 |
celeron55 |
pitriss: now? |
| 00:13 |
pitriss |
celeron55: if it is not broken in other browsers, let it as is.. It is usable now even in my prehistoric browser:) |
| 00:13 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: plain? |
| 00:13 |
pitriss |
great |
| 00:14 |
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| 00:14 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: aside from the formatting being correct for me, it looks the same as in pitriss's last screenshot. |
| 00:14 |
VanessaE |
e.g. the black text/white background, etc. |
| 00:14 |
VanessaE |
I guess I didn't get the memo about the site being redone :) |
| 00:15 |
celeron55 |
none of the site is being redone; it's just the "skin" of the site |
| 00:15 |
celeron55 |
i can toggle between this and the previous one from dokuwiki's admin panel 8) |
| 00:15 |
celeron55 |
but yes, it's somewhat plain |
| 00:15 |
VanessaE |
well that said, this "skin" is perhaps a little "cleaner" than the other one |
| 00:15 |
celeron55 |
by that definition |
| 00:16 |
VanessaE |
but no screenshots!!! D: |
| 00:16 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 00:16 |
celeron55 |
give me a good screenshot |
| 00:16 |
VanessaE |
anything I could come up with will not be suitable for the main website :) |
| 00:16 |
VanessaE |
(because mods) |
| 00:17 |
celeron55 |
mods is the point of minetest |
| 00:17 |
VanessaE |
true.. |
| 00:17 |
celeron55 |
i'll just write what mods it uses under the screenshot and it's perfectly fine |
| 00:17 |
VanessaE |
I'll see what I can come up with later, catch you when you wake up |
| 00:18 |
celeron55 |
one thing i might do is tune up the contrast of the text; it's not really my style to have so little contrast |
| 00:18 |
VanessaE |
oh G*d yes |
| 00:18 |
celeron55 |
(i'm obviously basing this on a random template copied from the 'net which had that) |
| 00:18 |
pitriss |
celeron55: yep contrast should be higher, yes |
| 00:20 |
pitriss |
Idea: how about to make those dropowns in light grey ? |
| 00:22 |
VanessaE |
they do need a little bit of difference from the main background, yeah |
| 00:22 |
VanessaE |
"Simplistic Modding API that..." <--- maybe "Sophisticated" now? It's hardly simplistic :) |
| 00:24 |
celeron55 |
now it's less grey |
| 00:25 |
VanessaE |
better. |
| 00:31 |
pitriss |
i played with it a bit in stylish: http://chytrex.wjake.com/crap/mt-site-idea.png //how about that border under menu? |
| 00:31 |
VanessaE |
tht's not bad. |
| 00:33 |
pitriss |
thanks:) It is far from perfect now, it needs more work but it was only example:) |
| 00:44 |
celeron55 |
the template is here if someone wants to play around with it: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest.net_dokutemplate2 |
| 00:45 |
celeron55 |
making a random local dokuwiki install for developing is quite easy |
| 00:47 |
pitriss |
celeron55: ok. |
| 01:00 |
Exio4 |
wow kde3 |
| 03:22 |
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| 05:17 |
thexyz |
celeron55: it's better than what we had |
| 05:18 |
thexyz |
by the way, anyone contacted the debian maintainer about the release? |
| 05:53 |
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| 06:02 |
celeron55 |
probably not |
| 06:03 |
RealBadAngel |
hi |
| 06:12 |
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| 06:13 |
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| 06:35 |
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| 06:42 |
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| 07:06 |
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| 07:06 |
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| 07:49 |
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| 08:31 |
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| 08:32 |
BlockMen |
celeron55, i know my template wasnt perfect, but sry, this is 0% representative for a game website |
| 08:32 |
BlockMen |
IMO it looks like a fancier version of your blog |
| 08:43 |
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| 08:44 |
thexyz |
BlockMen: what would be representative for a gane website? |
| 08:44 |
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| 08:45 |
BlockMen |
thexyz, IMO some textures, but at least some color |
| 08:45 |
thexyz |
text with a background texture which doesn't even tile? |
| 08:46 |
thexyz |
dunno |
| 08:46 |
thexyz |
what we had looked awful |
| 08:46 |
BlockMen |
and this looks naked |
| 08:46 |
* VanessaE |
mumbles something about the Emperor's New Clothes... |
| 08:46 |
thexyz |
perhaps |
| 08:47 |
BlockMen |
and you can use background texture and 'just' color for text area |
| 08:47 |
thexyz |
to me it looks simple but that's a good thing compared to that web1.0-ish texture mess |
| 08:47 |
thexyz |
also fuck my internet connection |
| 08:48 |
thexyz |
but that's not what we had |
| 08:48 |
thexyz |
we had texture hell |
| 08:48 |
thexyz |
which didn't even tile |
| 08:48 |
BlockMen |
thexyz, "i know my template wasnt perfect" |
| 08:48 |
BlockMen |
clear enough?! |
| 08:49 |
thexyz |
for how much time |
| 08:49 |
thexyz |
it wasn't good and it wasn't improving |
| 08:51 |
proller |
freebsd port updated ! /usr/ports/games/minetest |
| 08:53 |
Jordach |
BlockMen, here's an idea, go browse some well known game websites, and look at the themes |
| 08:56 |
BlockMen |
Jordach, ok i visited 6 websites now and none looks that plain and colorless |
| 08:57 |
Jordach |
BlockMen, i would have said the same |
| 08:57 |
thexyz |
what about non tiling textures? |
| 09:01 |
BlockMen |
idk what the perfect theme looks like |
| 09:01 |
BlockMen |
i just said my opinion on the new |
| 09:02 |
thexyz |
alright |
| 09:07 |
thexyz |
to you it may look plain or colorless but to me it looks light and easy to navigate and read |
| 09:17 |
pitriss |
thexyz: I also like the new web template but.. I modified it a bit in stylish to add thin black borders to left and right side of content, and line below menu. I can post screenshot with css changes I made.. it look less blank now.. |
| 09:24 |
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| 09:48 |
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| 09:50 |
pitriss |
https://gist.github.com/Pitriss/5f0ef9a9d7d028fb6373 //my changes to the website template. Untested on real dokuwiki, I only applied my local stylish code to original one. |
| 10:35 |
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| 11:00 |
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| 11:03 |
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| 11:15 |
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| 11:32 |
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| 11:39 |
celeron55 |
oh apparently i made something very controversial |
| 11:39 |
celeron55 |
job well done *pats myself* |
| 11:41 |
* us^0gb |
giggles |
| 11:43 |
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| 13:17 |
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| 13:29 |
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| 13:33 |
thexyz |
yes because everyone agreed previous design was not-so-good |
| 13:37 |
thexyz |
design of the quote is quite meh though, the quotation mark isn't even visible |
| 13:46 |
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| 14:20 |
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| 14:56 |
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| 14:57 |
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| 15:03 |
celeron55 |
the site is of course open for other designs too, and that design is open for improvements |
| 15:10 |
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| 15:11 |
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| 15:12 |
BlockMen |
my interpretation of clean design for a game website: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/v9gni23wlbys0dq/hp_t3_test_3_3.png |
| 15:13 |
pitriss |
celeron55: i posted my idea here: https://gist.github.com/Pitriss/5f0ef9a9d7d028fb6373 (In case you didn't read backlog) (not tested on real dokuwiki) |
| 15:16 |
celeron55 |
BlockMen: and how would the non-front pages look like? |
| 15:16 |
BlockMen |
same but with a smaler image like 1/3 or something |
| 15:39 |
thexyz |
pitriss: can you post some pics? |
| 15:40 |
pitriss |
thexyz: screenshot link is in that gist description:) http://chytrex.wjake.com/crap/mt-site-idea2.png I just added some lines only..:) |
| 15:41 |
thexyz |
oh sorry |
| 15:41 |
pitriss |
np |
| 15:41 |
thexyz |
but honestly I prefer the version without any lines |
| 15:42 |
pitriss |
line is also around dropdown if triggered.. |
| 15:42 |
thexyz |
celeron55: fix dropdowns |
| 15:42 |
pitriss |
thexyz: I'ts ok, it was only idea.. |
| 15:42 |
thexyz |
celeron55: and blockquote |
| 15:43 |
celeron55 |
BlockMen: i'd prefer no image, but more than that i'd prefer seeing how it actually would look |
| 15:45 |
BlockMen |
celeron55, its just a mockup since that is much less work. if you are really interested in i will make a template next day(s) |
| 15:45 |
celeron55 |
baah, not that interested 8) |
| 15:46 |
celeron55 |
thexyz: what's there to fix about dropdowns |
| 15:46 |
BlockMen |
ok, then not |
| 15:48 |
thexyz |
celeron55: it's not really clear a link is a dropdown actually, though it seems it's not really a problem |
| 15:48 |
thexyz |
and while we're talking about designs here's what I mocked up for MMDB http://i.imgur.com/YhTNaox.png |
| 15:48 |
celeron55 |
but overally your designs (that too) put too much focus to the layout so that the actual content looks almost nonexistent |
| 15:48 |
celeron55 |
and insignificant |
| 15:49 |
celeron55 |
while i would like to put content first |
| 15:50 |
celeron55 |
i like mmdb quite a lot as-is, except that there are things that don't have any styling at all which is bad |
| 15:51 |
thexyz |
and I find the current design awful so that's why I built what I did |
| 15:53 |
BlockMen |
thexyz, why you think its awful? the is much white, not tile textures, strange color... |
| 15:53 |
celeron55 |
or, well... really the only thing that i consider properly made is the top navigation bar |
| 15:53 |
BlockMen |
*there |
| 15:54 |
thexyz |
BlockMen: just look at https://forum.minetest.net/mmdb/mod/worldedit/ |
| 15:54 |
thexyz |
that random space on the left of "WorldEdit" |
| 15:54 |
thexyz |
that randomly placed Download button |
| 15:55 |
thexyz |
that gallery ;_; |
| 15:55 |
thexyz |
reviews |
| 15:55 |
celeron55 |
i think comments and reviews should shown as one list, if they have to co-exist in the first place |
| 15:55 |
BlockMen |
well, ofc its not perfect. but that is IMO nothing atm |
| 15:55 |
thexyz |
celeron55: that's one of my points, mmdb should only have mods and reviews |
| 15:56 |
BlockMen |
and i think there should be one "master" design that should be used on forum, mmdb and so on |
| 15:56 |
thexyz |
everything else goes elsewhere: comments (forums), bug reports (github, forum) |
| 15:56 |
celeron55 |
i think layouts of different websites should show just hints of a common theme and otherwise have their own personality |
| 15:57 |
thexyz |
BlockMen: yeah go on and apply minetest.net's design to the forum |
| 15:57 |
celeron55 |
it's boring if everything uses the same layout |
| 15:57 |
celeron55 |
and the same layout doesn't fit all |
| 15:57 |
thexyz |
any opinions on the new design, not the old one? |
| 15:58 |
BlockMen |
at least similar, not a blank and white mainpage, a dirt backgrounded forum and a green mmdb |
| 15:58 |
BlockMen |
that is even worse than everything the same |
| 15:58 |
celeron55 |
thexyz: your screenshot doesn't fit on my screen and is |
| 15:58 |
celeron55 |
-and is |
| 15:59 |
thexyz |
celeron55: what's your width? |
| 15:59 |
celeron55 |
but not considering that, it's contrast is very random |
| 15:59 |
celeron55 |
the top bar is completely black and then the borders all around are so dim it's almost impossible to see them |
| 15:59 |
BlockMen |
thexyz, umm..you kept the "random" gap at mod title |
| 15:59 |
thexyz |
BlockMen: what? |
| 15:59 |
thexyz |
it's centered |
| 16:00 |
thexyz |
celeron55: I'm more talking about the layout, colors can be easily changed |
| 16:00 |
celeron55 |
it could be a better start than the current one |
| 16:00 |
BlockMen |
thexyz, ic. but it doesnt look like ;) |
| 16:00 |
thexyz |
BlockMen: then fix your vision or something? |
| 16:00 |
celeron55 |
thexyz: how about putting the reviews on the right column instead of under the columns? |
| 16:00 |
thexyz |
no offense and shit |
| 16:00 |
celeron55 |
having text and fields at the full width looks just bad and is bad to use too |
| 16:00 |
thexyz |
celeron55: put where? in place of description? |
| 16:01 |
celeron55 |
under it, without going under the image and metadata thing |
| 16:01 |
thexyz |
celeron55: I don't see the problem here, the full width is limited to 1000px |
| 16:01 |
thexyz |
celeron55: and then there's a lot of space on the left and it'll look bad |
| 16:02 |
BlockMen |
thexyz, nice you stay that objective -.-' |
| 16:02 |
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| 16:02 |
celeron55 |
well then, how about moving the "write review" box under the reviews so that the reviews don't get buried down at the bottom |
| 16:02 |
thexyz |
BlockMen: what? you can't see it's centered and it's my problem? or what? |
| 16:03 |
thexyz |
I don't really understand, you didn't even tell me what the problem is |
| 16:03 |
thexyz |
celeron55: what if there are too many reviews and no one will get to the "write a review" section |
| 16:03 |
celeron55 |
well if there are so many reviews, why would anyone need to write a review anymore |
| 16:04 |
celeron55 |
it's not like you need 1000 of them |
| 16:04 |
BlockMen |
YOU asked for opinions, i told you mine. that no reason to get personal |
| 16:04 |
thexyz |
BlockMen: okay, I'm sorry |
| 16:04 |
celeron55 |
thexyz: how about making "write a review" a button that will expand out the form? |
| 16:05 |
thexyz |
celeron55: and leave it at its place? |
| 16:05 |
celeron55 |
yes |
| 16:05 |
thexyz |
maybe |
| 16:05 |
thexyz |
should it be expanded? |
| 16:05 |
celeron55 |
the problem for me is that i don't want to be looking at empty boxes where i'm not going to want to write anything |
| 16:06 |
thexyz |
http://i.imgur.com/Xc1ZRxx.png |
| 16:07 |
celeron55 |
that's good |
| 16:07 |
celeron55 |
now do something to the huge black hole at the top |
| 16:09 |
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| 16:09 |
thexyz |
what? what's the problem here? |
| 16:10 |
celeron55 |
it has too much contrast |
| 16:10 |
thexyz |
oh, i thought you were talking about too much wasted space |
| 16:11 |
* sfan5 |
was thinking that too |
| 16:13 |
thexyz |
I haven't even touched the colors yet |
| 16:13 |
thexyz |
http://i.imgur.com/tIrs50V.png |
| 16:13 |
thexyz |
and the css in general |
| 16:13 |
sfan5 |
what about a green tint for the top bar? |
| 16:15 |
celeron55 |
how about if you change that top bar to what mmdb has currently? |
| 16:15 |
celeron55 |
with a smaller logo though; the current one is too huge |
| 16:15 |
BlockMen |
that green looks not good |
| 16:16 |
thexyz |
I don't like that it's sticky |
| 16:19 |
thexyz |
we need the official Minetest Green color |
| 16:20 |
BlockMen |
official green? |
| 16:20 |
sfan5 |
I'd say the green we have in the logo |
| 16:20 |
BlockMen |
that green looks better https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/njgeuf3e9pxxvgl/hp_t3_test_3_3-green.png |
| 16:21 |
sfan5 |
that's #73d216 |
| 16:21 |
sfan5 |
(in the logo) |
| 16:21 |
BlockMen |
oh, thats easier, gd idea. i prefer #65B41D |
| 16:21 |
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| 16:22 |
thexyz |
http://i.imgur.com/X5DWyvz.png |
| 16:23 |
thexyz |
just upgraded the foundation as well |
| 16:24 |
thexyz |
both colors you provided look awful when used in top bar |
| 16:29 |
BlockMen |
IMO it looks fresher http://i.imgur.com/SU0IwX2.png :) |
| 16:30 |
thexyz |
eh |
| 16:30 |
celeron55 |
how about making the bar simply white and some heavy hover effects (eg. that background) for the links in there |
| 16:30 |
thexyz |
my eyes certainly don't like it |
| 16:32 |
thexyz |
celeron55: i think it'll look too plain and therefore hard to intuitively distinguish from the actual content and this is bad because it's the main navigation item |
| 16:32 |
sfan5 |
what about the water blue from the logo (#729fcf) |
| 16:33 |
thexyz |
what about it? |
| 16:33 |
sfan5 |
for the top bar |
| 16:33 |
celeron55 |
thexyz: try making it somewhat darker and less saturated then; maybe switch the colors there |
| 16:33 |
sfan5 |
it's not too bright, but not too dark |
| 16:33 |
thexyz |
not it should be green |
| 16:34 |
celeron55 |
(i mean, in BlockMen's image) |
| 16:34 |
thexyz |
what? |
| 16:34 |
thexyz |
what's so bad about the current color? |
| 16:36 |
thexyz |
why do we want to base it on the logo color? |
| 16:37 |
thexyz |
where it clearly wasn't designed to suit topbar |
| 16:37 |
sfan5 |
why do we need to have everything in green? |
| 16:38 |
BlockMen |
right, the download button color doesnt look bad either |
| 16:38 |
thexyz |
dunno it just looks nice |
| 16:39 |
sfan5 |
please try #729fcf once |
| 16:40 |
PilzAdam |
let the users choose the color |
| 16:41 |
thexyz |
sfan5: of course i've tried it |
| 16:41 |
thexyz |
PilzAdam: nice joke |
| 16:41 |
sfan5 |
and it doesn't look nice? |
| 16:41 |
BlockMen |
#008CBA looks better :P |
| 16:41 |
thexyz |
yes, i feel like it doesn't because everything is blue already |
| 16:42 |
thexyz |
anyway arguing here is not productive |
| 16:42 |
thexyz |
i should find iqualfragile and ask him what pages should i do instead |
| 16:43 |
sfan5 |
BlockMen: that is a bit dark |
| 16:45 |
BlockMen |
sfan, #009DD1 ? |
| 16:46 |
sfan5 |
that's better |
| 17:05 |
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| 17:16 |
sapier |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/977 squashed and (hopfully) ready for merge did you have any additional issues PilzAdam? |
| 17:16 |
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| 17:19 |
PilzAdam |
sapier, remove debug output |
| 17:20 |
sapier |
did I forget something again? |
| 17:20 |
PilzAdam |
engine.debug("Initializing Asynchronous environment") |
| 17:20 |
PilzAdam |
woah, just crashed again |
| 17:20 |
sapier |
argh |
| 17:20 |
PilzAdam |
ERROR: Async ENGINE step: /home/adam/Minetest/minetest/builtin/async_event.lua:14: assertion failed! |
| 17:20 |
PilzAdam |
lets gdb |
| 17:21 |
sapier |
that's the one thing I wasn't sure if it can happen at all |
| 17:21 |
sapier |
why do we have engine.debug if it shouldn't be used? |
| 17:21 |
proller |
sapier, why marshal ? |
| 17:22 |
PilzAdam |
sapier, https://gist.github.com/PilzAdam/7662338 |
| 17:22 |
sapier |
because you need to transfer the code to another INDEPENDENT environment |
| 17:22 |
PilzAdam |
sapier, its useful to print() while debuging a mod, but it shouldnt be in code that is to be released |
| 17:22 |
sapier |
it's not a print but engine.debug |
| 17:23 |
PilzAdam |
print() is an alias for minetest/engine.debug() |
| 17:23 |
sapier |
why? I expected this to not do anything in release mode |
| 17:23 |
PilzAdam |
because mods need it, and mods are developed on release builds |
| 17:24 |
PilzAdam |
is that backtrace useful? |
| 17:24 |
sapier |
I don't care enough to discuss any further about the ininializing message ;-) |
| 17:25 |
sapier |
I'm not quite sure looks like one of those random crashes supposed to be fixed by curl init |
| 17:25 |
PilzAdam |
just use mintest.log("info", ...) |
| 17:26 |
sapier |
are you sure minetest.log is available in mainmenu ? |
| 17:27 |
PilzAdam |
engine.log then |
| 17:27 |
PilzAdam |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/menu_lua_api.txt#L133 |
| 17:27 |
sapier |
I'll try ... yet I'm more concerned about that crash |
| 17:28 |
PilzAdam |
I dont like that you remove so many tabs from empty lines in main.cpp, this probably breaks other pull requests |
| 17:28 |
sapier |
I guess I need to find out how to make eclipse not do that automaticaly |
| 17:29 |
sapier |
but I won't turn it of for spaces at end of line ... I hate those ;-) |
| 17:30 |
sapier |
can you provide the other threads backtraces for that crash too? |
| 17:31 |
PilzAdam |
https://gist.github.com/PilzAdam/7662510 |
| 17:31 |
sapier |
and maybe in AsyncEngine::doAsyncJob the lenght of serialized data passed from lua |
| 17:32 |
sapier |
I have a feeling that something with converting marshalled function to string may be involved ... but I could be completely wrong with this too |
| 17:32 |
PilzAdam |
this? https://gist.github.com/PilzAdam/7662540 |
| 17:33 |
sapier |
<optimized out> .... thats why I hate -O1 |
| 17:34 |
sapier |
but let me check your second log first |
| 17:34 |
PilzAdam |
building with -O0 |
| 17:35 |
PilzAdam |
wow, that builds quite fast |
| 17:35 |
sapier |
3 threads in modstore details ... all reading settings ... suspicious |
| 17:37 |
PilzAdam |
I just reproduced it with -O0 and AsyncEngine::doAsyncJob runs in no thread |
| 17:38 |
sapier |
ok plz post backtrace the more are available the better chances to find it |
| 17:38 |
sapier |
what machine do you have? :-) guess it's way faster then mine |
| 17:38 |
PilzAdam |
https://gist.github.com/PilzAdam/7662628 |
| 17:39 |
sapier |
at least within this trace it's obvious to be a memory corruption :-( |
| 17:39 |
PilzAdam |
intel core i7 8 x 2.93 GHz |
| 17:40 |
sapier |
way faster true |
| 17:40 |
PilzAdam |
memory corruption? |
| 17:41 |
sapier |
malloc/free new/delete not used as it should be |
| 17:41 |
sapier |
or stack objects ... or something else |
| 17:42 |
sapier |
the interesting thing is that most time job queueing is involved |
| 17:43 |
sapier |
argh |
| 17:44 |
PilzAdam |
https://gist.github.com/PilzAdam/7662696 |
| 17:44 |
sapier |
m_JobQueueMutex.Init(); |
| 17:44 |
sapier |
m_ResultQueueMutex.Init(); |
| 17:44 |
PilzAdam |
I should write a script to produce these ;-) |
| 17:44 |
sapier |
can you put those two lines in AsyncEngine constructor |
| 17:45 |
sapier |
I't great to have a mutex to protect data ... unless you forget to initialize it ;-) |
| 17:46 |
PilzAdam |
l_async_events.cpp:68? |
| 17:46 |
sapier |
yes |
| 17:46 |
sapier |
I guess I should start checking return values for lock and unlock functions |
| 17:47 |
PilzAdam |
seems that fixed it |
| 17:48 |
sapier |
good ... it's a simple yet effective method to avoid locking if you don't even initialize it ... yet it doesn't protect anything this way |
| 17:52 |
sapier |
did anyone else test it? |
| 18:07 |
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| 18:16 |
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| 18:18 |
celeron55 |
oh, this refreshed my mind about a thing https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=119741#p119741 |
| 18:19 |
celeron55 |
was that fix committed to upstream? |
| 18:19 |
celeron55 |
it should have been, but i don't remember at all |
| 18:20 |
celeron55 |
looks like it wasn't |
| 18:20 |
sapier |
I don't think so proller merged all his pull request to a single one |
| 18:21 |
celeron55 |
well fuck proller |
| 18:21 |
sapier |
but of course that's not an excuse for not merging the good ones ... just "out of sight out of mind" |
| 18:21 |
celeron55 |
can someone find the commit |
| 18:22 |
sapier |
I'll have look which of his closed pull request is most likely matching this issue |
| 18:23 |
PilzAdam |
sapier, the "Make game better" one ;-) |
| 18:23 |
sapier |
not helpfull ;-P |
| 18:24 |
celeron55 |
it looks to me that he didn't make a pull request for it |
| 18:24 |
sapier |
he did he just closed it |
| 18:24 |
celeron55 |
well i don't find it in his closed pull requests |
| 18:25 |
sapier |
#895 |
| 18:25 |
celeron55 |
nope |
| 18:26 |
celeron55 |
already looked at that |
| 18:26 |
PilzAdam |
its propably part of one of the pull requests, he never devided features into several ones |
| 18:26 |
celeron55 |
proller should seriously get his shit in order |
| 18:27 |
sapier |
ok this is at least the one I had in mind but it could be part of his other pulls too ... they haven't been exactly single feature pulls |
| 18:27 |
celeron55 |
minetest suffers because of him; there's broken code by proller in upstream and fixed by proller can't be applied |
| 18:27 |
celeron55 |
fixes* |
| 18:27 |
Exio4 |
broken? are you talking about weather? |
| 18:27 |
celeron55 |
yes |
| 18:28 |
sapier |
is there any way to sort closed pulls by user on github? |
| 18:28 |
PilzAdam |
sapier, just filter for one user and then click on "closed" |
| 18:28 |
celeron55 |
there are three options: 1) proller stops making it impossible to merge his fixes, 2) somebody else continues them, 3) proller's original broken things are taken out |
| 18:29 |
sapier |
great ... sometimes I wonder why order of clicking is relevant |
| 18:29 |
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| 18:29 |
celeron55 |
i actually just made the same thing; clicked closed before proller |
| 18:30 |
celeron55 |
but then tried the other way |
| 18:30 |
PilzAdam |
thats how you shouldnt design an interface |
| 18:30 |
celeron55 |
it's like they didn't know if they wanted to make tabs or filters |
| 18:31 |
sapier |
#980 seems to be a performance fix too |
| 18:32 |
celeron55 |
the fix modifies stuff around server.cpp:112 |
| 18:32 |
sapier |
ok I have a look at "make game better" |
| 18:32 |
thexyz |
PLOT TWIST: this is actually #895, and getting fed up with this stuff not being merged for months and "lost" is understandable |
| 18:33 |
sapier |
there it is |
| 18:33 |
celeron55 |
thexyz: it sucks for both sides and the solution is not to make it harder for the other side |
| 18:34 |
thexyz |
indeed |
| 18:34 |
thexyz |
but people are different, some are fine with their stuff being "useless", some eventually get fed up with it |
| 18:34 |
thexyz |
and give up |
| 18:34 |
sapier |
I understand proller too (in some way) but adding new features while old ones aren't ready for merge isn't helpfull too |
| 18:34 |
celeron55 |
okay it looks like the fix is in that pull request |
| 18:35 |
thexyz |
or improve in other ways |
| 18:36 |
celeron55 |
my stand on this is that we don't accept things based on how much time people put on them, but based on how much benefit vs. trouble we see coming from the end result |
| 18:37 |
thexyz |
that's not what I'm talking about, and what I'm talking about is that because of poor communication people give up and quit |
| 18:37 |
celeron55 |
it's related |
| 18:38 |
thexyz |
as you wish |
| 18:39 |
sapier |
I can't see any poor communication with proller |
| 18:39 |
sapier |
I guess I'm not the only one who suggested to split his pull requests to avoid having multiple (sometimes questionable) features in a single one |
| 18:39 |
thexyz |
sapier: and then what's the reason of #895 not being merged? |
| 18:40 |
thexyz |
if not poor communication |
| 18:40 |
sapier |
I guess the liquid update things? |
| 18:41 |
sapier |
and if there are more then 100 timers those are ignored too |
| 18:41 |
celeron55 |
proller doesn't ask anything beforehand from anyone but instead comes with things he thinks he has completed and then wants to push them without even showing much signs that he understands what the modifications do |
| 18:41 |
celeron55 |
or, well, this is how i perceive it |
| 18:41 |
thexyz |
so instead of telling him what's wrong you've decided to just ignore his pull requests |
| 18:41 |
sapier |
thexyz we did tell him multiple times |
| 18:42 |
sapier |
but he just kept on adding new things without fixing suggestions |
| 18:42 |
celeron55 |
i wonder how many times proller has been told that he has too many features in one pull request or commit... |
| 18:42 |
celeron55 |
then he fixes it by putting even more of them |
| 18:42 |
celeron55 |
good luck making friends that way |
| 18:43 |
sapier |
I'd be glad if proller came back and continues to contribute but by now his work is often more like prototypes that need cleanup |
| 18:43 |
sapier |
ok I admit my first pulls sometimes seem to be same true |
| 18:44 |
celeron55 |
sapier has a wibe of proller to how he does things but it's not "problem grade" bad |
| 18:44 |
thexyz |
sapier: I've just checked the log for "895" and it seems he mentioned it several times and all those times this was 1) ignored 2) not ignored but answered with a pointless comment like "why did you raise max clients setting" |
| 18:44 |
sapier |
so what about 895 take the fix from server.cpp and merge separatly or use whole thing? |
| 18:44 |
celeron55 |
vibe* |
| 18:45 |
thexyz |
sapier: I don't understand how do you want to separate this pull request and why |
| 18:45 |
thexyz |
can you please explain? |
| 18:45 |
celeron55 |
we're not talking about specifically this pull request |
| 18:45 |
sapier |
server.cpp line 101 -120 |
| 18:45 |
celeron55 |
and people's reactions to a single pull request are affected by the overall impression from everything done before |
| 18:45 |
thexyz |
alright, let's talk about other pull requests then if so you insist |
| 18:46 |
thexyz |
sapier: do you want to only pick this? for what reason? |
| 18:46 |
sapier |
thexyz I never told everything proller did was bad ... I'm almost sure most of it was good |
| 18:46 |
sapier |
because I'm not sure what sideefects the other changes might cause |
| 18:48 |
sapier |
but if you're sure they don't do anything bad I'm fine too |
| 18:49 |
sapier |
but at least with timer things I have a bad feeling |
| 18:49 |
thexyz |
then wait for him and ask |
| 18:49 |
thexyz |
if you're not sure about something |
| 18:49 |
thexyz |
or ask in the github issue |
| 18:49 |
thexyz |
instead, for some reason when someone's unsure about something he or she keeps quiet about it and things move nowhere |
| 18:50 |
sapier |
that doesn't change the fact this pull request is 10 features in one |
| 18:50 |
thexyz |
not really |
| 18:50 |
celeron55 |
proller has been known to try to push his finite liquids in ways that make original liquids work badly, and then people have had to fix stuff that he broke; it's no wonder at all that people are prejudiced |
| 18:50 |
thexyz |
and what? that doesn't mean you should silently ignore his pulls |
| 18:50 |
thexyz |
everyone fucks up |
| 18:51 |
celeron55 |
well, people do this as a hobby and they don't want to do boring things like thoroughly testing other people's code |
| 18:51 |
celeron55 |
there needs to be trust |
| 18:51 |
sapier |
thexyz I don't think his pulls got silently ignored ... if this looks this way to otheres it's my/our fault of course |
| 18:52 |
sapier |
but it's always two to make a problem ... proller didn't do anything to reduce conflict too |
| 18:53 |
sapier |
btw the timer things look like a hack but most likely don't cause any harm |
| 18:55 |
sapier |
but no idea what the liquid things do I just don't know that code enough to even guess |
| 18:55 |
celeron55 |
well for one thing unintuitive things like that should always be commented so that people can know what is happening |
| 18:55 |
celeron55 |
that's missing completely from those commits |
| 18:57 |
celeron55 |
sprinkling random pieces of timers and dynamically changing things in the codebase is bad and any sane person would want to just not have it |
| 18:57 |
celeron55 |
a better idea could be making a system for managing those things in a more controllable way |
| 18:58 |
thexyz |
and even better idea would be to post this to the github issue instead of saying stuff here where the pull request author most likely won't even see this and no one is going to pass that to him obviously |
| 18:58 |
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| 18:59 |
celeron55 |
it's okay to make heuristics, dynamically changing hacks and other random code if it's reasonably modularized into one place (like sky.cpp or the viewing range tuner by me), but it's not so much when it's a few lines here and there |
| 19:00 |
sapier |
thexyz do I understand correct that you suggest moving pull request discussion (partly/total) to github? |
| 19:00 |
celeron55 |
thexyz: that's an another problem we have; people discuss things in IRC and obviously they don't want to rewrite what they said to issue comments, and also the irc log is too long for linking from the issue |
| 19:00 |
celeron55 |
thexyz: if you have some magic wand for handling that, use it |
| 19:01 |
thexyz |
sapier: no, I mean, we should discuss them in a way that those discussions are accessible for all people; people shouldn't dig up the logs to find that you discussed the issue while he or she was away |
| 19:01 |
thexyz |
celeron55: yes, it's called copypasting |
| 19:01 |
thexyz |
just copy and paste the related lines into the comment on this github issue and that's good enough |
| 19:01 |
sapier |
at least at this point thexyz is right at least important issues need to be added to the pull requests |
| 19:02 |
sapier |
but I guess this won't help in this special case |
| 19:03 |
thexyz |
eh |
| 19:03 |
thexyz |
well whatever |
| 19:03 |
celeron55 |
but what makes this all unacceptable for me is that any coder should know that sprinkling random code around a project like what those commits do isn't acceptable |
| 19:03 |
celeron55 |
it's stupid to have to even say to someone that it's not ok |
| 19:03 |
sapier |
proller won't fix it anyway ... but we should at least learn from things that have been done wrong in past |
| 19:04 |
celeron55 |
always when one does something, he should think of what would happen if everyone would do things exactly like that infinitely into the future |
| 19:04 |
celeron55 |
if the end result wouldn't be acceptable, then there needs to be a good reasoning why that won't actually happen |
| 19:05 |
celeron55 |
this case could have been immediately merged if proller would have explained why those lines are completely enough for handling the problem, and saying something about the dynamics they cause |
| 19:06 |
celeron55 |
well there's something in the strict meaning of that word, but it's that non-understandable proller gibberish |
| 19:09 |
celeron55 |
if someone wants to see how to do things, look at how kahrl does things |
| 19:09 |
celeron55 |
it's fucking art |
| 19:19 |
sapier |
but back to original issue are those lines in server.cpp enough to fix the most pressing issue? |
| 19:19 |
celeron55 |
the receive loop added there fixes the most horrible lagging under CPU load |
| 19:20 |
celeron55 |
and has already been reviewed well |
| 19:20 |
celeron55 |
the other stuff nobody really knows about |
| 19:21 |
sapier |
ok I'm gonna create a pull request with only this change |
| 19:28 |
celeron55 |
you could just push it |
| 19:30 |
PilzAdam |
what disklike most about prollers way of handling things is how he ignore most of my suggestions / criticism about his pull request |
| 19:30 |
PilzAdam |
+I |
| 19:49 |
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| 19:55 |
sapier |
any idea what value to use for dedicated_server_step ? |
| 19:57 |
PilzAdam |
0.05 or 0.1 |
| 19:58 |
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| 19:59 |
sapier |
what convention do we use on counters? machine default type or specifying with u16/u32 ? later one is less performant |
| 20:03 |
celeron55 |
yes, the code tends to use them quite randomly |
| 20:03 |
celeron55 |
i these days usually use size_t for general unsigned needs |
| 20:07 |
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| 20:09 |
sapier |
ok then I'm gonna use size_t too ... I just didn't want to use u16 as this is even slow on 32bit |
| 20:11 |
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| 20:15 |
sapier |
ok those changes aren't as simple as they seemd to be |
| 20:15 |
VanessaE |
regarding proller's pull requests, and noting that I have *not* used his fork myself, why stop at just one feature? As I recall from helping him test server performance recently, there are several beneficial changes that he's made. what is the *real* reason for not just merging the whole branch? I mean aside from "well we just don't understand it". Or to put it differently, let's suppose someone were to sit down one day |
| 20:15 |
VanessaE |
, look at the code, and decide "you know what, this is shit and I'm gonna rewrite it". That person does so, ends up with 10x better code in every respect than what came before, but it comes with the caveat that half the codebase got replaced. |
| 20:15 |
VanessaE |
what happens then? |
| 20:16 |
sapier |
VanessaE because his branch doesn't only contain performance fixes but things like wingsuite trees in caves increased cloud level too ... just to name some |
| 20:17 |
VanessaE |
gotcha |
| 20:18 |
sapier |
I wouldn't wait a second to merge a "performance fixes" branch containing them ... but prolller usually has a "performance fix here and feature x+y and change some default there" pull request |
| 20:18 |
VanessaE |
right |
| 20:18 |
VanessaE |
but here's the thing |
| 20:18 |
VanessaE |
he's absolutely right |
| 20:19 |
VanessaE |
his pull requests have, to some degree, been ignored. |
| 20:19 |
VanessaE |
the question is what do you expect him to do? |
| 20:19 |
VanessaE |
stop developing entirely while waiting the 1-2 months it seems to take? |
| 20:19 |
sapier |
I do not accept this vanessae he hasn't been ignored I told him weeks ago to split those things to get the non controversial things merged |
| 20:19 |
VanessaE |
(not you, specifically) |
| 20:19 |
celeron55 |
communicate. |
| 20:19 |
celeron55 |
in some other way than repeatedly linking the pull request here |
| 20:20 |
celeron55 |
i have said this so many times i really don't want to repat this |
| 20:20 |
thexyz |
in what way then? |
| 20:20 |
sapier |
but he told me it's to much work for him ... so what to do start working after him to get a clean pull? |
| 20:20 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: the problem is no one's ever here to answer him |
| 20:20 |
thexyz |
"hey guys please look" "hey i made this pull" "please check this out" |
| 20:20 |
thexyz |
how else should we communicate? |
| 20:20 |
celeron55 |
if people aren't interested in it, tell people why they should be interested in it, goddamnit |
| 20:20 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: who |
| 20:20 |
VanessaE |
oops |
| 20:20 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: who's to tell if there's no one here to respond? |
| 20:21 |
thexyz |
maybe he meant the dev should hilight all other people or something |
| 20:21 |
celeron55 |
that's a stupid question |
| 20:21 |
VanessaE |
I've left huge diatribes in this channel on issues I'm dealing with, and despite there being a log that we all know about, sometimes I get zero response. |
| 20:21 |
celeron55 |
there's always somebody here reading the backlog |
| 20:21 |
VanessaE |
mind you it doesn't bother me too much |
| 20:21 |
celeron55 |
if the backlog is boring or it's an issue nobody thinks they can solve, then people ignore it |
| 20:21 |
VanessaE |
but I bet you it bothers the everloving shit out of him |
| 20:22 |
celeron55 |
but in that case it wouldn't go forward by not ignoring it either |
| 20:24 |
thexyz |
https://gist.github.com/xyzz/da52765655e45ae525e9 |
| 20:24 |
proller |
i better fix something or write something new instead of describing every line of pull to every dev and exio |
| 20:24 |
VanessaE |
22:27 < celeron55> | if nobody is interested, [...] 3) code more to have a more impressive bunch of stuff |
| 20:25 |
VanessaE |
and therein lies the problem. |
| 20:25 |
thexyz |
as you can clearly see he didn't even try to communicate |
| 20:25 |
VanessaE |
(no offense, c55....) |
| 20:25 |
proller |
i always fix all reasonable objections in all pulls |
| 20:25 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: you're free to criticize me |
| 20:25 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: I'm just saying that you literally told him to do exactly what he's done... |
| 20:25 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: 3 isn't a primary option, as you can guess |
| 20:25 |
sapier |
NO proller you're working in a team if team doesn't understand what your doing your work isn't worth anything |
| 20:26 |
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| 20:26 |
thexyz |
the "team" doesn't even try or so it seems |
| 20:26 |
thexyz |
to communicate, that is |
| 20:26 |
sapier |
I know explaining obvious things to others is annoying but there's no other way |
| 20:26 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: of course, I know that. but it seems to me that options 1 and 2 have been exhausted in this case. |
| 20:27 |
thexyz |
how the hell is he supposed to know what to improve if you don't communicate |
| 20:27 |
proller |
and my pull do not broke old liquids, except one place where need to make decision (drop float flag in old liquids OR leave 8 levels for old liquids) |
| 20:29 |
sapier |
thexyz you keep telling noone told him anything just plain repeating doesn't make this more correct than first time |
| 20:29 |
proller |
and for my current work in dynamic branch need 20-30 pulls is split by feature |
| 20:29 |
celeron55 |
well i definitely now said what is generally wrong with #895 |
| 20:29 |
thexyz |
sapier: some people still seem to not understand what I meant |
| 20:29 |
thexyz |
i.e. this ^^ |
| 20:30 |
thexyz |
"i said this so everyone now knows that" |
| 20:30 |
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| 20:31 |
proller |
and i have no time to rewrite 50% engine for fix every small problem |
| 20:31 |
sapier |
ok now what's up to 895: 1) multiple features, 2) some missing explanations why to do things this way, 3) missing default parameter dedicated_server_step ... I guess this isn't everything |
| 20:31 |
VanessaE |
translation: "stop dawdling and start merging so I can keep writing new stuff instead of repeatedly rewriting or rebasing my existing stuff" |
| 20:32 |
proller |
all pull is about limit step to 0.1*x seconds. now step can take up to 60s |
| 20:32 |
sapier |
and yes I know prollers pulls are a huge block of work I guess getting them in shape for merge is about half a month to a complete month |
| 20:33 |
celeron55 |
that's why proller shouldn't aim for achieving so much |
| 20:33 |
sapier |
proller I'm about to extract that feature right now could you please verify I didn't miss something? |
| 20:33 |
celeron55 |
doing less but better would lead to much better results |
| 20:33 |
proller |
sapier, where missing? |
| 20:33 |
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| 20:34 |
proller |
i want to make game playable, and server running without problems and restarts every hour |
| 20:34 |
sapier |
I don't know that was my question: |
| 20:34 |
sapier |
https://gist.github.com/anonymous/7665717 |
| 20:35 |
sapier |
VanessaE we can't merge things if they aren't ready for merge just because proller keeps on writing new things ;-) |
| 20:35 |
celeron55 |
proller: that's completely fine; but make it in as small steps as possible and don't overflow our slow but trustworthy voluntary review process |
| 20:35 |
VanessaE |
sapier: I understand that. |
| 20:36 |
proller |
celeron55, or do nothing? |
| 20:36 |
sapier |
we all want to do our own work too and I guess It's only fair we don't only review and merge prollers changes in our freetime ;-) |
| 20:37 |
sapier |
reviewing is even more time consuming than writing we will never keep up if proller doesn't stop writing from time to time ;-) |
| 20:37 |
celeron55 |
proller: i can't change the facts |
| 20:37 |
proller |
sapier, your gist diff is strange, how you get it? |
| 20:38 |
sapier |
git diff ... but I'm open for suggestions to get a better one |
| 20:38 |
proller |
in src/defaultsettings.cpp and minetest.conf.example - not my changes |
| 20:38 |
proller |
git diff upstream/master |
| 20:38 |
sapier |
I know but it's required to add this setting if you use it |
| 20:39 |
proller |
its already in master |
| 20:40 |
sapier |
oh ... ok good to know |
| 20:41 |
sapier |
https://gist.github.com/sapier/7665838 better? |
| 20:42 |
proller |
better for what? |
| 20:43 |
sapier |
better meaning "is this everything required to add this single feature?" |
| 20:43 |
proller |
for what? |
| 20:43 |
proller |
for remove lag - no |
| 20:44 |
proller |
need whole pull |
| 20:44 |
sapier |
"make a perfect game" isn't a single feature too |
| 20:44 |
VanessaE |
proller: perhaps you should separate off the lag-fixing code into a new branch and pull-request just that |
| 20:45 |
sapier |
and if you 100% guarantee this pull will remove any lag that will ever occurr I will merge it at once ... I just don't believe this is true |
| 20:45 |
proller |
VanessaE, its already was here, but nothing happen |
| 20:46 |
sapier |
proller no there never was a pull request containing performance fixes only (at least not since I am allowed to merge) |
| 20:46 |
proller |
it remove all lags, which i found per 3 days of debugging |
| 20:46 |
sapier |
I'm sorry to tell proller amount of time spent creating isn't a reason for merging something |
| 20:47 |
proller |
895 is all about lag |
| 20:47 |
proller |
merging or not - its not my problem |
| 20:48 |
sapier |
it also seems to fix liquid things which may be reason for lag too |
| 20:48 |
proller |
you can always cherrypick anything from my branch |
| 20:48 |
sapier |
I give up proller I really try to find a way to help but if you don't move a single mm I can't help |
| 20:49 |
sapier |
I'm not willing to be your personal review and merge slave ... |
| 20:50 |
sapier |
and obviously noone else is willing to be |
| 20:51 |
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| 20:53 |
sapier |
Anyone to review https://gist.github.com/sapier/7665838 and give permission to merge? |
| 21:00 |
celeron55 |
uh what |
| 21:00 |
celeron55 |
int received isn't initialized at all |
| 21:01 |
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| 21:02 |
sapier1 |
https://gist.github.com/sapier/7666179 |
| 21:02 |
celeron55 |
fine to me |
| 21:03 |
sapier1 |
the one problem with this is as it's a part of 895 merging it will make merging other things more difficult |
| 21:52 |
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