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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2013-10-21

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Time Nick Message
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00:18 VanessaE [10-20 20:17] <Miner_48er@VE-S> ufo duplication?
00:18 VanessaE [10-20 20:18] <VanessaE> that's been fixed.
00:18 VanessaE [10-20 20:22] <Miner_48er@VE-S> it's not fixed
00:18 VanessaE [10-20 20:23] <VanessaE> you sure?
00:18 VanessaE [10-20 20:24] <VanessaE> c55 tested it pretty thoroughly anyway
00:18 VanessaE [10-20 20:24] <VanessaE> (with the UFO mod, yet)
00:18 VanessaE [10-20 20:24] <Miner_48er@VE-S> placed a ufo underwater it flew up and duplicated
00:18 Exio4 @VE-S?
00:18 VanessaE VE-S == my Survival server
00:18 Exio4 offtopic, is that a nice script? :P
00:19 VanessaE yes, it's one kaeza made.  https://github.com/kaeza/minetest-tools
00:20 VanessaE [10-20 20:26] <VanessaE> when did you do this?
00:20 VanessaE <VanessaE> and how old is your client?
00:20 VanessaE (still waiting for him to respond)
00:21 VanessaE [10-20 20:27] <Miner_48er@VE-S> minetest-0.4.7-3c4734d-win32
00:21 VanessaE jeez, how old is that?
00:22 Exio4 git show 3c4734d
00:22 Exio4 Date:   Tue Aug 20 22:38:14 2013 +0200
00:22 VanessaE oh hell
00:25 VanessaE told him to update.
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06:37 celeron55 VanessaE: so entities moving by themselves away from the player probably duplicate
06:41 celeron55 by the way, what kind of ufo flies automatically up from underwater? at least not the one i have
06:44 nore celeron55: you just need to push it a bit up, it won't stop
06:51 celeron55 i'll just use a bloat instead
06:51 celeron55 bloat 8D
06:51 celeron55 *boat
06:53 celeron55 umm yeah, i now have a flying boat and a floating boat
06:53 celeron55 the flying one is a bogus one
06:53 celeron55 it doesn't exist on the server
06:54 celeron55 this is probably related to sapier's patch
06:54 celeron55 or at least could be
06:54 kahrl floating boats and bogus boats are minecraft inspired features so they are fine
06:54 celeron55 oh, no, the bogus boat does exist on the server too
06:54 kahrl flying*
06:55 celeron55 but the server thinks it doesn't fly but rather is stuck under or over the floating boat
06:55 celeron55 i think it's the one under the floating boat
06:56 celeron55 i'll try to get a log of this after work
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06:56 celeron55 unless kahrl has fixed it by then!
06:58 kahrl I'll do my best :P
07:12 RealBadAngel hi celeron55, kahrl
07:14 RealBadAngel celeron55, how do you like it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax48OnXjDTE
07:43 celeron55 i don't like it because the water color is arbitrary
07:43 celeron55 it should reflect the colors of the sky, that's how water works
07:44 nore celeron55, btw, you spoke of a space game in Minetest. would you make it?
07:44 nore or was it only an example?
07:45 celeron55 dunno; there's some way to go to support any reasonable space stuff in any case
07:51 nore celeron55, what does override_day_night_ratio exactly?
07:52 celeron55 http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2013-10-19#i_3382514
07:52 nore I've got a question too: can a mesh be dynamically created?
07:52 celeron55 mesh for what
07:53 celeron55 and in where
07:53 nore a mesh for an entity
07:53 nore can it be created by a mod while the server is running, and then used in an object?
07:54 celeron55 no
07:56 celeron55 that might be one thing to implement, but you won't get much out of it without better collision physics
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07:56 celeron55 or, well, for larger things than a node or two
07:57 nore the objective was to try to do voxelarea entities in Lua...
07:57 nore so doing it in core would be better
07:58 celeron55 where does it read they would be done in lua
07:59 nore nowhere... I just wanted to try to make a mod that did it
07:59 nore of course they will be done in core
08:00 nore but it isn't done now
08:00 nore and I don't know how to program in C
08:01 celeron55 so your original question wasn't at all about wanting to create custom meshes in itself, but only about whether that would be a way to make voxel-based entities
08:02 nore well, I needed that to make a nodebox node
08:02 nore but it could be used for other things too
08:02 nore for example, player size change, or something like that
08:04 celeron55 there would be need for some kind of generic runtime resource loading and unloading
08:04 celeron55 but there are issues with that, like the fact that we have many kinds of resources
08:05 celeron55 there's not one interface to implement it in, but many
08:05 celeron55 if it was made for media files, then maybe the protocol could be modified so that the server sends node and item definitions as generated files so then they can be reloaded too without duplicate work... or something
08:06 celeron55 then the client is completely build based on the fact that stuff isn't reloaded on the fly so the threading model comes in the way
08:07 celeron55 and there's probably more "fun" stuff than that 8)
08:07 celeron55 oh, i mean, interesting and challenging!
08:08 nore s/challenging/impossible too
08:08 celeron55 nothing is impossible
08:08 celeron55 some things are just harder and/or require more imagination than others
08:08 nore http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncomputable_problem
08:09 nore ^ and that?
08:09 celeron55 that's the part that requires imagination 8)
08:10 nore I'm thinking about VoxelArea entities
08:10 nore how a mod would know that that node is in a VoxelArea entity and not in the world?
08:11 nore we would need to add another parameter like entity ID to the node (and 0 if it is in the world)
08:11 nore but that would break a lot of mods
08:11 nore (almost all of them)
08:12 celeron55 they could probably be allocated to the same coordinate space over the world edge
08:12 celeron55 dunno
08:12 celeron55 needs experimenting
08:12 celeron55 or simply allocated in the world at some corner
08:12 nore the problem with that is that it would break minetest.hash_node_position
08:12 celeron55 the world would be allocated like RAM in computers 8)
08:13 nore (but nobody uses it, anyway)
08:13 nore what do you mean, like RAM in computers? with virtual positions?
08:15 celeron55 simply make the entity be (look and behave like) what exists at some position in the world
08:15 celeron55 and hide the original position
08:16 celeron55 it probably isn't as crude as it sounds
08:17 celeron55 and would definitely allow fastest progress
08:17 celeron55 the server would allocate those areas and make sure the client receives the areas used by the entities it knows about
08:17 celeron55 and hide the areas from normal map
08:19 celeron55 it should allow completely full-functioning chunks of nodes to move around as entities
08:20 celeron55 of course it wouldn't be done like this (probably, not sure) if it was decided as a feature from the beginning, but this is what we have now
08:22 nore so for example, internally, there would be another id dimension
08:23 nore but for mods, that dimension would be above max y or below min y
08:23 celeron55 no
08:23 celeron55 i'm talking about just including them inside v3s16
08:24 celeron55 it can be modified in the future, but i don't think we have resources for that now
08:24 nore but what when the area inside it is generated because a player entered it?
08:24 celeron55 it would simply be special-cased to not be generated
08:24 celeron55 and to not be included in the regular world
08:24 nore and if a player wanted to build inside it?
08:25 celeron55 they don't want
08:25 celeron55 it won't simply be part of the world
08:26 nore so, for example, the coordiantes between 31000 and 32768 could be used for that
08:26 celeron55 very possibly
08:26 nore btw, is the 31000 limit in server or client or both?
08:27 nore (I mean, does the client render nodes behind 31000?)
08:27 celeron55 i didn't actually even remember we have this limit... it turns out to be handy reserve space for this
08:27 celeron55 it does if it gets them, but that's easy to modify
08:27 nore I know world is not generated after 31000
08:27 nore and it is impossible to build there
08:31 nore no, it's limited to 30927
08:31 nore (just checked)
08:31 nore and -30912
08:37 nore should I link this discussion on the dev wiki?
08:37 celeron55 those limits come from what happens to be the farthest map generator chunk that doesn't go over +-31000
08:38 celeron55 i guess this is worth linking in the "dev log" page
08:38 nore why -30912? shouldn't it be -30992 then?
08:38 nore dev log or todo about voxel area entities? (or both)
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08:39 celeron55 whatever, maybe not both
08:39 celeron55 the size of the chunks is 128*128 nodes, and the middle chunk is positioned so that the player stands in the middle of a mapblock i think
08:40 celeron55 and that causes them to be off like that
08:40 celeron55 128*128*128 i mean
08:42 celeron55 actually, i'm not sure about this
08:42 nore I thought chunks were 80*80*80...
08:42 nore http://dev.minetest.net/TODO#Voxel_Area_Entities
08:42 nore done the edit
08:42 celeron55 actually yes, they are 80^3
08:43 nore so why does it stop at -30912 and not -30992?
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08:44 celeron55 maybe it rounds the limit first by mapblock and then compares to that somehow resulting in that... i don't see a reason to care though
08:45 nore nor do I, I was just curious
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13:06 proller ERROR[main]: ERROR: An unhandled exception occurred: ServerError: LuaError: error: /home/proller/.minetest/games/sky/mods/default/player.lua:125: attempt to index local 'anim' (a nil value)
13:07 nore proller: related to that, perhaps: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/207
13:09 proller yes
13:14 nore I have a suggestion: server-side metadata for nodes
13:14 nore it would hold the same things as normal metadata, but would not be sent to client
13:14 nore so one can put a lot of information in it that the client doesn't need to know
13:15 proller 207 included to -netx, will test..
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15:55 celeron55 nore: that's already decided to be done, like at the exact moment when lua-accessed metadata was added to 0.4
16:03 nore and why isn't it added then?
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16:44 rubenwardy Can this be added to the forum: http://punbb.informer.com/forums/topic/26333/extension-ommedals/
16:45 rubenwardy or my version, http://punbb.informer.com/forums/post/147458/#p147458 , but I dont think it is as good
16:46 PilzAdam no
16:47 rubenwardy why not?
16:48 PilzAdam it makes the forum more to a playground for kids
16:48 rubenwardy depends on the medal
16:49 rubenwardy one con is that noobs may request medals
16:49 rubenwardy but, it would promote stuff
16:51 VanessaE medals also encourage people to be constructive in the forum.
16:51 VanessaE I say add them.
16:54 * sfan5 is undecided
16:56 rubenwardy most helpful (ie bugs+problems), mod medals (innotive, amount(1,5,15), textures), developer medals (pulls, features, bug fixes)
16:56 rubenwardy server owner
16:56 sfan5 >amount(1,5,15)
16:56 rubenwardy 1 mod, 5 mods, 15 mods
16:57 sfan5 that will create a competition..
16:57 rubenwardy hmmm
16:57 rubenwardy Which is a problem, so scratch that
16:57 rubenwardy quality not quantity
16:57 PilzAdam I dont think this is the right channel to discuss this
16:57 sfan5 I'd say s/amount(1,5,15)/made popular mod/
16:59 rubenwardy Same trouble with talkative: 25posts a day, average
17:00 rubenwardy Competitions! Winner, runner up
17:00 VanessaE ^^^ Jordach ;)
17:00 VanessaE (or jojo)
17:00 PilzAdam I still think this is the wrong channel
17:00 rubenwardy #minetest ?
17:00 VanessaE maybe the wrong channel but it's not like there's some other discussion going on right now
17:02 rubenwardy VanessaE would get the nyan cat award: helping people
17:02 VanessaE hah
17:03 rubenwardy so would PA and Jordach
17:04 PilzAdam VanessaE, there is no discussion in #spasim too, you could as well go tehre
17:04 sfan5 I do help people too :-(
17:05 rubenwardy yeah
17:05 rubenwardy and thexyz
17:05 rubenwardy sorry for the ping :P
17:05 nore joined #minetest-dev
17:05 sfan5 "think before you ping"
17:06 thexyz this should go to #minetest
17:08 rubenwardy Anyway; I am going on HL2
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17:11 VanessaE now on to something possibly engine related.  Dan's "mt_nostalgia" game exhibits a weird artifact when shaders are turned on.  standing water (e.g. sources) display random overlaying, translucent textures from players and mobs
17:11 VanessaE and sometimes flowing water displays white surfaces on the sides at the interface with glass blocks.
17:11 Dan_D Hi, just wanted to report an apparent issue. It seems,with drawtype glasslike_framed, when next to water thge water apears white throuhg it.
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17:11 VanessaE I've examined the code and textures and can find nothing unusual.  Is this a client bug then?
17:12 Dan_D Oh and btw the server is vanessae.mine.bz, port 30002
17:12 Dan_D There are some examples on it
17:12 VanessaE Jordach: if you are here, can you please link to the two images showing it?
17:12 sapier can we live with directxSDK as well as OpenAL SDK not beeing built ourselfs in our official build?
17:12 VanessaE sapier: offtopic :P
17:12 sfan5 I think we can
17:13 Dan_D VanessaE, '<Jordach> im playing a ragdoll fighting game, fuck off'
17:13 Dan_D So he won't help
17:13 sapier yea :-) thought women could deal with different things same time ;-P
17:13 VanessaE sapier: we can.  the men in this channel can't ;)
17:14 Dan_D I am at an example of the bug now on the server
17:15 thexyz what's the issue #?
17:15 Dan_D If you want to see it for yourselves
17:15 Dan_D It seems,with drawtype glasslike_framed, when next to water thge water apears white throuhg it.
17:15 Dan_D When using glasslike_framed glaas on nostalgia server
17:15 Dan_D With the nostalgia game
17:15 Dan_D vanessae.mine.bz, port 30002
17:16 VanessaE thexyz: no issue has yet been raised because we can't tell if this is a game/content bug or an engine bug.
17:16 thexyz sapier: by the way, how's it going with your windows build?
17:16 PilzAdam Dan_D, no need to repeat yourself
17:16 PilzAdam just file an issue on github
17:17 Dan_D Ahem, 'VanessaE> thexyz: no issue has yet been raised because we can't tell if this is a game/content bug or an engine bug.'
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17:18 VanessaE screenshot of the top-surface water bug, thanks to kaeza:  https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/100008207/screenshot_3668162906.jpg
17:19 sapier thexyz almost done I decided to do a full cleanup of mingw to get rid of duplicated libs as well as vs libs where possible ... did you know the only case why we have win32 api version of zlib is serialization.cpp?
17:20 sfan5 VanessaE: I have a similar bug, the water constantly switches between transparent and non-transparent
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17:20 sapier irrlicht and freetype bring their own zlib and/or libpng on win32 I try to clean that up too
17:20 thexyz no, I didn't
17:20 VanessaE sfan5: I've seen that as well, though in this case the texture switched randomly between say rats, oerkkis, "the green thing" player image, and perhaps others.
17:21 sapier btw does anyone know how to fix the texure tiling issue with irrlicht 1.8?
17:23 VanessaE issue filed.
17:24 sapier thexyz you could try http://www.mediafire.com/download/c9sm90maa739iba/release.7z my yesterday version if you only wanna check the gettext issue
17:24 sapier but I haven't tried this version on different machines so no quarantee I got all dll
17:26 thexyz tested in wine for now
17:26 thexyz doesn't work
17:26 thexyz let me fire my virtualbox
17:26 thexyz http://i.imgur.com/2VTecMB.png
17:26 sapier a little bit more details plz missing dll crash or same problem?
17:26 sapier interesting ... are you sure it's not your system that is messed up?
17:26 thexyz same problem, as you can see from that screenshot
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17:27 thexyz okay, I have clean windows VM
17:27 sapier me to win7 64 bit
17:28 thexyz can you send a screenshot of this running with russian language?
17:29 sapier I just deleted my buildenv to check if my howto is correct but I'll send it to you once I rebuilt everything
17:29 sapier I tried russian and chinese yesterday
17:29 thexyz VanessaE: please upload screenshots to github
17:30 VanessaE thexyz: done.
17:30 thexyz sapier: okay, I'll try it with some other setups
17:31 VanessaE and trimmed the description down to just the water top-side texture issue.  the side/white issue should be filed separately but I have no screenshot to go with it.
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18:06 thexyz sapier1: on clean win7 install i just get 0xc000007b error
18:07 sapier1 all current updates installed?
18:08 sapier1 I wouldn't put that much work into that version I'm about to create a completely clean build ... no guarantee there weren't some relics of old experiments in that build
18:08 thexyz okay, okay, I'll install them
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18:09 thexyz oh, maybe it's because 512 mb is not enough
18:09 sapier1 that's quite possible
18:15 celeron55 by some googling it looks like it could be a matter of 32bit vs. 64bit dlls or other stuff
18:15 celeron55 related to bits anyway
18:18 sapier1 i built everything with 32bin compiler
18:18 sapier1 bit
18:20 thexyz wait, is it 64 or 32 bit build?
18:20 sapier1 32bit but built on 64bit host
18:20 thexyz why is OpenAL32.dll x86-64?
18:20 thexyz meh
18:20 sapier1 hmm :-) maybe that one is wrong
18:21 sapier1 but It should be imposible to mix 32bit and 64bit dlls
18:22 thexyz the bug reproduces with windows xp, 32 bit (I replaced openal32.dll with 32-bit version)
18:22 sapier1 wait winxp?
18:22 sapier1 maybe it's a win7 winxp issue?
18:23 thexyz okay, I can test on 7
18:23 sapier1 I hate windows :-)
18:26 thexyz please next time upload to something other than mediafire
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18:28 sapier1 if you can tell me where to upload arbitrary binary files without registration I'll do that gladly
18:28 thexyz and it reproduces on 32 bit win7
18:28 thexyz mega, pomf
18:28 thexyz https://mega.co.nz http://pomf.se/
18:29 thexyz don't rely on pomf though
18:29 sapier1 btw what's wrong with mediafire?
18:29 thexyz ads everywhere
18:29 thexyz slow site
18:29 thexyz especially in virtualbox
18:29 sapier1 ok
18:29 PilzAdam and you cant use wget
18:30 Sokomine mediafire doesn't work. it's broken. (because it requires javascript for downlaod). mediafire is evil
18:30 thexyz amen
18:30 sapier1 mega doesn't even show a single text without javascript ;-P
18:31 sfan5 sapier1: you could also use sfan5.duckdns.org/upload/
18:31 celeron55 mega's javascript usage is kind of fair considering what it does with it 8)
18:31 thexyz mega doesn't have ads
18:31 thexyz popping out when I press "Download"
18:32 PilzAdam "Your browser does not allow data to be written. Please make sure you use default browser settings" – mega.co.nz
18:32 thexyz meh
18:32 celeron55 PilzAdam: mega stores an encryption key in the browser
18:32 thexyz sometimes I wonder if PA can read
18:33 thexyz "Please make sure you use default browser settings"
18:33 thexyz it's written right here
18:33 PilzAdam websites shouldnt tell me to change my browser settings
18:33 thexyz meh, let's just stop it
18:33 celeron55 it obviously can't work without the locally stored key because it's built around that, but whatever
18:33 sapier1 there's nothing shown if you have noscript enabled
18:33 thexyz then just fucking use fucking pomf
18:33 celeron55 ...maybe i should set up a file upload service for use by the minetest community
18:34 thexyz it's like omploader but not dead
18:34 thexyz yet
18:36 celeron55 are there any specific features that people would want for such?
18:36 celeron55 s/for/from/
18:37 PilzAdam a direct download link and a info link with download statistics
18:37 thexyz it should be fast and not dead within 1 month
18:37 thexyz you don't need info link, just use some url shortener
18:37 thexyz also, I believe sfan5 has similar service
18:38 sfan5 uploading something not-public won't work without js
18:38 sfan5 but you need to be logged in to upload non-public things and that won't work without JS
18:38 thexyz it should have nice progress bar indeed
18:38 sfan5 I'll do that when I have time 8)
18:38 rubenwardy mediafire is not direct
18:38 thexyz and this fancy API support where you can drop a file on your browser window
18:39 sapier1 guys we don't need those fancy features all we REALLY NEEED is a way to upload files to be downloaded by others ;-)
18:39 celeron55 oh i forgot again that browsers still don't implement showing of upload progress... which was implemented in opera like 10 years ago i guess
18:39 thexyz chromium does
18:40 thexyz dunno about firefox
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18:40 thexyz reliability is the main problem though; remember old minetest.net/forum
18:41 celeron55 well reliability is definitely not a problem with nearlyfreespeech.net
18:41 celeron55 it costs more than almost anything else though
18:41 celeron55 8)
18:41 celeron55 well, it depends on actual usage
18:42 thexyz yeah
18:43 thexyz it'll be hard to delete all this illegal shit users upload
18:43 celeron55 the only downside of them is that they're in US
18:43 * sfan5 is not in the US
18:43 celeron55 which could be considered a large downside these days
18:44 thexyz by people who live there
18:44 celeron55 well yeah; also if the upload site gets taken down, i might need to move the minetest.net site elsewhere
18:44 thexyz is minetest.net hosted @ nearlyfreespeech?
18:45 celeron55 yes
18:45 thexyz oh
18:45 thexyz you know, it's slow
18:45 PilzAdam sfan5, oh nice, your upload service doesnt require JS
18:45 thexyz can you upload something there so that we can test the speed?
18:45 sapier1 is it possible to add file upload support to our forum?
18:46 thexyz indeed
18:46 celeron55 the main problem with the current site is that it's very heavy by itself
18:46 celeron55 maybe a lighter dokuwiki template would help
18:46 thexyz celeron55 didn't like this idea though
18:48 sfan5 PilzAdam: <sfan5> uploading something not-public won't work without js
18:56 celeron55 thexyz: 12MB file: http://minetest.net/testfile
18:58 celeron55 minetest.net uses their bulk bandwidth option that is very cheap but may be crappy at times
18:58 thexyz 250k
18:58 celeron55 let me try on an another nearlyfreespeech.net site that doesn't use that
18:59 pitriss hmm hmm, guys maybe there will be good some ftp server with web frontend for that uplading stuff ? It is just simple and lot of file managers supports ftp:)
19:00 thexyz for comparison: https://forum.minetest.net/testfile
19:03 celeron55 this doesn't use the bulk bandwidth option: http://www.8dromeda.net/data/testfile
19:04 celeron55 (and costs like pumping gold through pipes)
19:07 celeron55 i wonder if the physical distance makes most of the speed difference
19:07 celeron55 (or, well, routing distance)
19:08 thexyz the second one goes to ~300 kb/s
19:08 celeron55 the ping difference between nearlyfreespeech.net and forum.minetest.net is like 4x
19:08 thexyz perhaps we should ask users
19:08 celeron55 i wonder if it's pretty much the opposite from the other side of the atlantic
19:09 thexyz I think 250-300 kb/s is ok for small mods
19:10 thexyz those people should just learn to use github though
19:10 thexyz it now has releases
19:11 celeron55 maybe we should set up a torrent tracker and use that instead 8)
19:12 celeron55 (not a realistic option for images and small files)
19:13 thexyz s/ for images and small files//
19:15 celeron55 being in europe i would of course prefer an european location for servers though
19:16 celeron55 as long as it's technically reliable and not overly expensive
19:17 sapier1 yeah european as of continental or skandinavian ;-)
19:17 Exio4 forum.minetest.net? hetzner? germany? europe? :P
19:18 celeron55 forum.minetest.net is in germany, yes
19:18 sapier1 fine
19:18 sapier1 difference is little ... but better than nothing
19:20 thexyz yeah but for some reason you didn't like the idea of that punbb plugin which adds attachments
19:20 celeron55 i don't like it because in my opinion files shouldn't be glued in the forum like that
19:21 celeron55 hosting an another file hosting service on the server is fine to me
19:21 thexyz they shouldn't because?
19:21 VanessaE there is a caveat to that preference though, c55:  all these nitwits we've seen over the past months just randomly deleting their releases, and/or stuff like ompldr goes down permanently, so mods get lost.
19:22 celeron55 thexyz: i guess i don't have other rationale than that it doesn't feel right to me
19:23 thexyz alright
19:23 celeron55 i don't want to backup those files though so make sure they don't end up in those backups
19:24 thexyz well we only backup mysql
19:24 thexyz so are you fine with it now?
19:25 celeron55 i still don't like it, but i'm not going to stop you
19:25 thexyz okay
19:27 celeron55 VanessaE: they can delete their releases if they are in the forum; this is no fix for that
19:27 VanessaE true
19:27 VanessaE but that doesn't speak to the ompldr issue
19:27 VanessaE and what was that image site that died?
19:27 PilzAdam zimg.eu
19:27 VanessaE yeah
19:28 celeron55 we obviously can fix the free-services-going-down issue in such a way that the files go down only if the current forum instance goes down
19:28 VanessaE the death of those two killed a significant amount of content :-/
19:28 VanessaE right
19:28 celeron55 more persistent than that isn't really viable
19:28 thexyz do we trust moderators to delete attachments?
19:29 sfan5 of course you do ;-)
19:29 VanessaE thexyz: I don't see why not?
19:29 celeron55 i guess attachments should be handled like forum posts
19:29 thexyz fine
19:29 thexyz users can't delete their attachments
19:29 sapier1 I don't see any issue with ppl able to delete what they posted
19:29 thexyz what a nice option to have
19:29 PilzAdam so moderators silently delete the attachements too
19:29 celeron55 umm
19:30 sapier1 yes it's uncomfortable to us sometimes
19:30 sapier1 but I'm quite sure someone will have a copy if that mod was interesting
19:30 celeron55 thexyz: just configure it in whatever way you see working, i don't care
19:30 VanessaE ok so add a tag that says "attachement deleted by xxxx"
19:31 thexyz sapier1: which we can't verify unless we trust that person
19:31 sapier1 you couldn't verify the original version too so difference is little
19:32 sapier1 most likely that one deleting will not leave for good so the last version is quite suspicious either ;-)
19:32 thexyz you just download one with the most downloads
19:33 sapier1 if you want safe downloads you need to review and sign ... is it really worth this effort?
19:34 thexyz we assume we trust forum administrators and forum software
19:35 PilzAdam I do not trust all of the moderators, but whatever
19:35 sapier1 btw will this be really a issue anymore once modstore is rolled out?
19:35 thexyz PilzAdam: I'm talking about administrators
19:35 sapier1 modstore is a way to solve the spread download locations issue too
19:36 PilzAdam sapier1, do you mean modstore or moddb?
19:36 sapier1 isn't it same but only different names?
19:37 sapier1 moddb  is db itself while modstore is the minetest integration
19:37 PilzAdam I thought the client thing is the modstore and moddb is the server and web frontend
19:37 sapier1 ok so we at least use same words for those things ;-)
19:38 thexyz okay, it seems to work fairly well https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=7486
19:38 sapier1 but what I meant is the way to get a mod ingame as whole not depending on what exact implementation is used
19:39 VanessaE thexyz: also, FOR G*D SAKES please do not demand that people log in to view image attachments.
19:40 sapier1 downloading without login would be nice too
19:40 VanessaE I can't even begin to describe how fucking irritating that is on other sites, when you're in the middle of a google search and can't follow because OH LOGIN REQUIRED!
19:40 celeron55 it's in the trash section
19:40 VanessaE (aside:  cute image)
19:40 celeron55 it isn't viewable by even regular members i think
19:40 sfan5 ^
19:40 sapier1 I guess that link should work? *g*
19:41 NakedFury require login for downloads but images for all perhaps?
19:42 sapier1 why do we need to limit downloading to logged in users?
19:42 celeron55 viewing or downloading any files shouldn't require any more login than viewing the forum post they're attached to
19:42 PilzAdam its stupid to say that only logged in people can download, since it will be mostly used for mods
19:42 VanessaE exactly.
19:43 PilzAdam we should add a rule that uploads need to be Minetest related, though
19:43 PilzAdam otherwise I can imagine a lot of shit in offtopic
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19:44 sfan5 what about disabling attachments for offtopic?
19:45 celeron55 https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=7487
19:45 celeron55 a test post in the general section with an attachment
19:45 celeron55 not viewable if not logged in at the moment
19:45 celeron55 (thexyz: ^)
19:46 PilzAdam meh, I dont like to click on the image to view it
19:46 sfan5 "cabbage casserole" wat
19:47 VanessaE you should auto-thumbnail the image.
19:47 VanessaE but click for the full size.
19:48 celeron55 well if you first upload the image, you can edit it into the post afterwards like any image 8)
19:48 PilzAdam can you use the download link in the [img] tag?
19:48 VanessaE yes
19:48 VanessaE I've done that before.
19:48 PilzAdam well that works
19:50 thexyz VanessaE: wait, you mean, I shouldn't hide URLs too?
19:51 thexyz [register to view this link]
19:51 thexyz so much hate just because I didn't think that sane developers could use this option as default
19:51 thexyz okay, fixed now
19:52 VanessaE ?
19:52 sapier1 tztztz all that work just because I uploaded a temporary build to mediafire :-)
19:52 celeron55 forum developers tend to have a mentality that seems to be out of this internet
19:52 thexyz VanessaE: should work now for guests too
19:53 VanessaE when did I say anything about hiding urls?
19:53 celeron55 seems to work; i'll delete https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=7487 in a second after someone has tested
19:53 VanessaE works fine when not logged in, c55.
19:54 celeron55 but, there's a problem
19:55 celeron55 the problem is what VanessaE and PilzAdam mentioned
19:55 thexyz what is it?
19:57 celeron55 that you need to edit the post after posting it if you want to include images to be visible in it
19:57 celeron55 and clumsily get the actual image location from the image view page
19:57 celeron55 well, external image hosting services are more plentiful than file hosting though
19:58 celeron55 but every noob ever in the future will include images without adding them to the post
19:58 celeron55 it will be unbearable if there is no fix for that
19:58 celeron55 automatic thumbnails or something could be a fix
20:00 thexyz we should just disallow images
20:00 thexyz use imgur
20:00 VanessaE um...
20:01 thexyz yes?
20:01 ShadowNinja Only "*.zip" || "*.tar*" etc might be good, since this is supposed to be mainly for mods.
20:01 thexyz right
20:01 thexyz mods, minetest builds, whatever
20:02 celeron55 that solves the problem
20:02 PilzAdam also .txt .conf .example
20:02 thexyz there's blacklist
20:02 sfan5 blacklist is better
20:02 thexyz so let's just disallow images for now?
20:02 thexyz oh wait
20:02 thexyz there's that nice option
20:02 thexyz > Images will be displayed on the viewtopic/edit page, whose size is smaller than the parameters below.
20:03 thexyz I wonder what it does
20:03 ShadowNinja Can it use MIME types? If so just image/*
20:03 thexyz oh, I see
20:04 thexyz well; how about we instead look at how this feature will be used and then decide whether we need any blacklisting or not
20:05 celeron55 is it enabled now?
20:05 PilzAdam its bad to first give users some feature and then remove it later
20:05 thexyz no, it's perfectly fine
20:05 thexyz everyone does that
20:05 PilzAdam users hate you when you remove features
20:05 thexyz celeron55: I've enabled it for ~1 minute, then figured out it looks awful
20:06 thexyz it just displays image in place of the file download link in post
20:06 celeron55 bleh
20:07 VanessaE eh
20:08 thexyz I don't like the idea of hosting images because it takes space at the bottom of the post; moreover, users can't delete their files for now and images tend to change often and unlike mods older versions are useless
20:08 celeron55 there should be an "insert to message" button next to the "add file" button for added files so that they could easily be shown regularly in the post
20:08 VanessaE older versions of images can be quite useful actually.
20:08 VanessaE but I see your point.
20:09 celeron55 but it sucks to try to roll your own versions of plugins and extensions so whatever, can't do
20:14 thexyz I'll blacklist image extensions then
20:15 VanessaE no
20:15 thexyz okay, I won't
20:15 VanessaE a moderator can always wander by and fix such image links if they need it
20:15 VanessaE if the user can't figure it out
20:16 VanessaE the auto-thumbnails thing could be added later
20:16 VanessaE (or the auto-view-full-size)
20:16 PilzAdam I like githubs system for screenshots
20:16 celeron55 VanessaE: they can't be added later because they suck and it's painful to modify forum extensions
20:17 celeron55 i think thexyz is right in his blacklisting of image extensions plan
20:17 VanessaE [10-21 04:15] <celeron55> nothing is impossible
20:17 VanessaE [10-21 04:15] <celeron55> some things are just harder and/or require more imagination than others
20:17 VanessaE :P
20:17 celeron55 nobody is going to put the required effort in this
20:18 celeron55 and thexyz is definitely not going to want to host some random outdated modified forum extension versions
20:18 thexyz uhh, this is so complicated
20:18 thexyz I'll just blacklist them and go to sleep
20:18 celeron55 thexyz: good
20:21 thexyz wow, that's retarded; admin interface allows to view orphaned attachments but not to download them
20:22 celeron55 ywah so who is going to punch the upstream developers of that extension and go make it work properly?
20:22 celeron55 yeah*
20:23 sfan5 flip a coin
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20:25 thexyz celeron55: you probably want to delete your test topic
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20:29 thexyz now we should force a rule to only allow github or internal downloads
20:30 thexyz well other popular repo hostings are fine too
20:30 thexyz but no dropbox or mediafire or whatever
20:31 sfan5 no dropbox?
20:31 sfan5 not even direct links?
20:32 ShadowNinja No adf.ly. (I'm looking at you fake_fire developer)
20:32 VanessaE nothing wrong with dropbox or mediafire
20:32 sapier1 guys don't forbid everything .... I prefere making alternatives as good as noone wants to use bad things
20:32 thexyz ompldr had direct links too
20:32 VanessaE but fuck ad.fly up the ass with a rusty steel sword.
20:34 thexyz I'm not a fan of dropbox but I'll listen to your arguments
20:35 VanessaE as long as a user can directly download, or at least get to the download with a minimum of fuss, I see no reason to disallow some sites...except for adf.ly and the like, for obvious reasons.
20:38 sapier1 does our official installer support executing external installs?
20:40 thexyz VanessaE: ompldr
20:40 sapier1 whats key for screenshot from menu
20:40 sapier1 ?
20:41 thexyz VanessaE: people ragequitting and deleting all the files
20:41 thexyz that's what I don't want to happen
20:41 thexyz because it's always such a pain
20:42 sapier1 I guess F12 doesn't work in menu ... right?
20:43 NakedFury is there anyway Admins can be sent messages when a forum user edits something giving the admin a back up or complete control to lock out the user from commiting that edit.?
20:44 thexyz instead of deleting an attachment it should just mark it as deleted; but I doubt it's capable of that
20:44 thexyz the problem with posts is solved by edit history which PunBB lacks
20:51 sapier1 imgur.com/jRrK5JH,TTqPeuc
20:51 sapier1 russian as well as chinese screenshot ... you see the typical irrlicht 1.8 texture tiling issue
20:53 NakedFury cant click it
20:53 NakedFury the comma
20:53 NakedFury weird
20:53 sapier1 copy it :-)
20:53 NakedFury already did
20:53 NakedFury the minetest logo
20:53 sapier1 the comma is right blame imgur :-)
20:54 sapier1 it's not only the logi all background images get tiled in 1.8
20:55 sapier1 I'm currently uploading that version to sfan5 ... but seems to take some time
20:56 sfan5 sapier1: you can upload with as much as 1,5MB/s
20:56 sapier1 it's 7.5mb only ;-)
20:57 sapier1 guess this means it doesn't work
20:57 sfan5 I'm receiving about 22 KB/s right now
20:57 sapier1 wow :-)
20:59 sapier1 error
21:00 sfan5 error what?
21:02 sapier1 104 connection reset by peer ... but I think that's result of upload from virtualized win7 system
21:04 sapier1 http://a.pomf.se/6Oe3.7z
21:05 sapier1 you need to install openal runtime first to use this version
21:09 sapier1 what visual studio versions do we officially support?
21:09 Exio4 any version that can compile minetest
21:10 Exio4 that is the "support"
21:10 sapier1 ok so none ;-P
21:10 sapier1 you won't succeed building minetest with vs without a lot of preparations
21:10 Exio4 ask thexyz, he is the one managing the official builds
21:11 sapier1 thexyz are you still here?
21:23 sfan5 I'd like to get #958 merged in it's current state
21:24 sapier1 hmm I guess someone should start moving that key code from game.cpp ... but that's another thing
21:25 sapier1 is there any consens about when to release 0.4.8?
21:26 ShadowNinja Or completely rewriting game.cpp amd main.cpp...
21:26 ShadowNinja soon(tm)
21:26 sapier1 why do ppl always talk about "rewriting" didn't anyone ever here about refactoring?
21:26 sapier1 +a
21:26 ShadowNinja rewriting/reworking/refactoring/whatever.
21:27 Exio4 re<shithere> is the word
21:27 sapier1 we should force the next one wanting to add a new feature to game.cpp to first split that file :-)
21:27 Exio4 haha
21:28 sapier1 yea it's easy to increase the mess and hope others will clean it up by time
21:28 ShadowNinja Result: game1.cpp, game2.cpp, and the_game2(loads and loads of arguments)
21:28 sapier1 and cleaning up game.cpp is not very thankfull as you're gonna either put most of development on hold or merge all those new features
21:29 ShadowNinja ;-)
21:29 sapier1 if not done right that new feature wont be added ;-)
21:29 ShadowNinja I guess 0.4.8 ca be released as soon as #910 is fixed.
21:29 ShadowNinja +n
21:30 sapier1 910 seems to be a build issue only
21:30 ShadowNinja Although I would like to have #856 in it...
21:30 sapier1 but I miss some feedback on modstore multiple modversions support as well as command line parameter support
21:32 ShadowNinja Well the interface has to be reworked and the download list takes waaaaay too long to load. (Load it in the background on start ala httpfetch?)
21:33 Exio4 isn't that stuff for what kahrl re-worked the http thread and so on?
21:33 ShadowNinja Up/Down arrows are also slow, they should be instant, I guess the modlist isnt cached.
21:34 sapier1 there's already a interface rework pull request ... for so long even the screenshot has expired
21:34 ShadowNinja Yell at a dev then. :-)
21:34 ShadowNinja s/dev/core dev/
21:35 sapier1 plz write issues for those things ... and yes the list isn't cached for good reasons by now ... http prefetch is/wasn't included by the time it was written
21:35 sapier1 if whole list would be cached you'd have to wait ages for first page to show up ;-)
21:36 ShadowNinja Downloading details for four mods should be very fast...
21:36 sapier1 should ;-) but isn't
21:36 ShadowNinja Why not? The download should be <0.5s and parsing <0.1s.
21:37 sapier1 it's json so server has to prepare that data first .. find, convert send
21:37 sapier1 download is way from 0.5s
21:37 ShadowNinja Then the server has very, very slow code.
21:38 sapier1 yes and as information for each mod has to be downloaded separate those times add
21:38 Exio4 blame proller
21:38 ShadowNinja SELECT * FROM mods LIMIT 4; --> convert to JSON --> send.
21:38 sapier1 not possible with current api
21:39 sapier1 you need to download each mod separate ;-P
21:39 ShadowNinja Then fix the API.
21:39 sapier1 not my issue ;-P
21:39 proller Exio4, wat?
21:40 sapier1 that issue will be less important once httpprefetch is implemented completely and merged but I don't know state of that work ... lots of things to improove modstore have been started by various ppl but noone seems to ever finish that work
21:41 sapier1 and I don't intend to code same thing just to motivate those ppl to finish their work
21:49 proller ShadowNinja, btw in master now fully broken weather and not backward compatible ugly liquid range param with visual bug
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