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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2013-07-17

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Time Nick Message
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01:29 hdastwb tell me what you think about this: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/834
01:32 sokomine sounds good
01:32 khonkhortisan but we need more
01:32 khonkhortisan a cartesion or spherical vector, or quaternion to (and from) facedir
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02:46 sokomine strange bug on redcrabs server:
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02:47 sokomine node placement prediction failed for wool:cyan (places wool:cyan) - name not known
02:48 sokomine any ideas what that may be? it does not look like the server was updated - it's still running 0.4.4-dev
02:50 sokomine tried another, slightly older client, and there the wool posed no problem at all - it was no longer an unkown block (as it is with the current version), and i could dig it without trouble
02:51 Exio4 slightly older = ?
02:52 sokomine slightly :) by version numbers, it's only 0.0.3 behind. by month, that is...well...a lot :-)
02:52 Exio4 i thought you mean a 0.4.7 build but without some new commit
02:54 sokomine my client is ...23 hours old. at least the client version that wasn't able to dig the wool:cyan
02:55 sokomine the server has the 0.4.4 version running
02:55 Exio4 were you able to "dig it" before?
02:56 Exio4 i mean, recently, a week ago?
02:57 sokomine with the version a few days ago - yes, i even build a house with that kind of wool and discovered yesterday that the block became suddenly unknown. now i checked - took a cyan woll out of a chest, placed it - unkown block. undiggable with recent client (with the error message mentioned). diggable with older client
02:57 sokomine the older one's about 12 days old
02:58 sokomine (the client)
02:58 Exio4 i think i know what happenes
02:58 Exio4 the cyan wool is using the "id" of the new "dummy block" used in the change to the vector
02:59 Exio4 (dummy node defined for unknown nodes)
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03:00 Exio4 happens*
03:01 sokomine that may be possible
03:02 MissValeska Hiya all
03:05 Exio4 sokomine: ask kahrl what you could do, :P
03:05 kahrl oh, yeah what Exio4 said is exactly what happens
03:06 sokomine using an older version helps. just wanted to report it
03:06 sokomine perhaps it ought to be mentioned somewhere
03:06 kahrl or you install a mod on the server that runs first and registers 128 unused nodes
03:06 kahrl yeah, I kind of forgot about that case when writing the forum post
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03:11 sokomine install a mod on the server...on redcrabs? i'm trying to reach him and want him to install my inspector-mod...but currently reaching redcrab is very difficult
03:11 kahrl well, that was meant for when you control the server
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03:13 Exio4 kahrl: write that mod
03:13 Exio4 and upload it to the News
03:13 kahrl sokomine: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=100342#p100342
03:14 sokomine i've posted in the thread for redcabs server. that ought to do it as well (it's not as if it's a big trouble to keep an older version - you just have to know it to prevent puzzlement)
03:14 kahrl Exio4: I will if a server admin asks for it
03:15 Exio4 kk
03:17 sokomine thanks for the posting!
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10:19 proller celeron55_, did you playing if finite_liquids with liquid_update = 0.1 ?  default 1 is too slow for it
10:19 proller /if/in/
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15:13 NakedFury hello
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16:36 Exio4 sapier: 13:35:52: ERROR[main]: MAINMENU ERROR: error: /home/exio4/sources/minetest/builtin/modmgr.lua:701: attempt to index a nil value
16:36 Exio4 i'll pastebin
16:36 Exio4 (using your "commits")
16:36 Exio4 pull request :P
16:36 Exio4 http://dpaste.com/1308520/
16:36 Exio4 that happens if there isn't any mod
16:36 Exio4 in the list
16:37 Exio4 not using RUN_IN_PLACE, fwiw
16:37 Exio4 but i run the game directly, ./bin/minetest from where i compile (i do this for having the files and configs in the same site for all my minetest builds)
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16:38 Exio4 even though i have mods in my "mods" folder, btw
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17:57 sapier1 Exio4 line 701? that line is empty for me and it's only called on pressing save button in config world dialog what version are you running?
17:57 Exio4 wait, the patch didn't apply correctly, it is a bug in the old code
17:57 Exio4 maybe you fixed it, already
17:58 sapier1 most likely modmanager got a major cleanup
17:58 sapier1 but I could have added new bugs of course
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18:13 Exio4 nevermind
18:14 sapier1 np does it work with current version or do I need to rebase?
18:15 Exio4 sapier1: one thing, the "mod manager for games" isn't working pretty well, i removed some mods and now i can't add them (i can't see them in the list :P)
18:15 Exio4 does it just "rm -rfs" the mods?
18:17 sapier1 it's a game manager not a modmanager ;-)
18:18 sapier1 games contain mods as copys
18:18 sapier1 so if you delete them while not having them installed to your modstore they'll be lost
18:18 Exio4 ah
18:18 Exio4 well, i can't create a "new" game, though :P
18:18 sapier1 run in place?
18:19 Exio4 =0
18:19 sapier1 strange
18:19 Exio4 but running it directly from the source, if it matters, not /usr/bin/something
18:19 sapier1 but haven't used gamemgr lately
18:19 sapier1 oh =0 ... ok not strange
18:19 Exio4 hehe
18:20 Exio4 i always use run_in_place for keeping my configs/worlds in the same place
18:20 sapier1 I guess I need to switch default game location to userprofile too
18:20 Exio4 will try something
18:23 Exio4 sapier1: wouldn't be possible to disable the "public list" and stuff that would use the network/curl if you don't enable it when compiling?
18:24 sapier1 difficult unless we add some api call
18:24 sapier1 e.g. engine.get_curl_enabled()
18:24 Exio4 k
18:24 Exio4 though you already did some stuff like that
18:25 sapier1 no for favorites just local list is provided if no curl is enabled
18:25 hmmmm what's wrong with applying some patch to the lua scripts on compile if they're disabled?
18:26 sapier1 do you mean a patch as in diff?
18:26 hmmmm yes
18:26 hmmmm oh windows
18:26 sapier1 we'd need to update that if something changes ... and windows is even a better reason for not doing
18:26 hmmmm and also that'd create two versions of the file
18:27 hmmmm nevermind, bad idea
18:27 sapier1 I'd even prefere a engine.get_compiletimeoptions()
18:27 sapier1 containing a table e.g. { curl=true,run_in_place=false }
18:28 hmmmm probably that's for the best then
18:28 sapier1 but are there any issues except of local favorites beeing shown even if public is checked?
18:28 hmmmm run_in_place might be useful
18:29 hmmmm hey, you don't know that yet - the idea of lua scripting in the main menu is to allow others to write main menus for their own games
18:29 sapier1 true
18:30 sapier1 I'm gonna put it on my feature request list :-)
18:30 hmmmm it takes like 5 minutes to code
18:31 sapier1 yes but about 1h to find any location in mainmenu it could be used ... and I know for sure right after I added that feature I will be pushed to add all those things ... resulting in new bugs
18:35 Exio4 wow, it works pretty well
18:35 Exio4 at least tried to download WE, and tested it (enabling it with the menu and so :P)
18:37 sapier1 good to hear ... finaly someone tested the features why this was done
18:37 Exio4 it is amazing man
18:37 sapier1 you should try the install button too ... preferably with a something-master-someone.zip
18:38 Exio4 kk
18:38 Exio4 something should be the "mod name"?
18:39 sapier1 that shouldn't matter
18:42 Exio4 it works! :P
18:42 Exio4 tried with "testclock.zip" and "nether-master-PilzAdam.zip"
18:42 Exio4 both mods working now
18:42 sapier1 so automatic modname guessing works too? ... it's only 99% I expected you'd find the one situation where it doesn't work :-)
18:43 Exio4 yeah
18:44 sapier1 mods without a single minetest.register* or parameters moved to a different line than "register call" can't be detected ... but I don't think there are a lot out there
18:46 Exio4 how hard would be reading a file in the .zip that contains that info? for "making it a new standard"
18:46 Exio4 if the file doesn't exist, try to to autoguess
18:46 Exio4 this is more like a feature request though :P
18:48 sapier1 I'd prefere to have that file but as there isn't one in most current mods I needed a fallback
18:48 Exio4 yeah, that is what i mean
18:48 Exio4 auto-guessing as fallback if not 'proper spec file' is found
18:49 sapier1 was my intention but as fallback works very well I guess the pressure upon adding that file is lost
18:51 Exio4 i don't think that is good for mods though, will it read the first minetest.register*?
18:51 sapier1 yes
18:52 Exio4 if the first register is, for example, :default:something, how would it handle that case?
18:52 Exio4 (didn't even check the code)
18:53 sapier1 then that mod should fail
18:53 sapier1 as far as I know you can't register for other mods
18:53 Exio4 you can "re-register" nodes from other mods
18:54 sapier1 hmm ok so only 95% accuracy
18:54 Exio4 sapier1: https://github.com/PilzAdam/nether/blob/voxelmanip/init.lua#L258
18:54 Exio4 an example :P
18:54 sapier1 can you re-register entities and items too?
18:55 PilzAdam yes
18:55 sapier1 ok so prefereing items and entities won't improve
18:55 Exio4 wouldn't "that" be just skiping the register* line if it contains :?
18:56 Exio4 first char
18:56 sapier1 is that a safe option?
18:56 PilzAdam just skip the line if the name contains 2 ":"
18:56 Exio4 you can't re-register nodes or other things without using : (afaik)
18:57 Exio4 PilzAdam: i think checking if : is the first char would work too
18:57 PilzAdam although... Exio4's version is even safer, since mods might override air or ignore
18:58 sapier1 ok it's a minor change ... and i think if a mod did this right now it would have done bad things either
19:01 hmmmm erm
19:01 hmmmm https://github.com/PilzAdam/nether/blob/voxelmanip/init.lua#L394
19:01 hmmmm you sure that's a good idea to put ids into a table like that, in speed-critical code?
19:01 PilzAdam would it be faster to call minetest.get_content_id() all the time?
19:01 hmmmm when you access that you need to check for metamethods and do string comparisons and lookups and all this nonsense
19:02 hmmmm the ideal solution is to make them locals
19:02 PilzAdam Ill benchmark that later
19:02 hmmmm I'd also profile the difference between the two
19:02 hmmmm i know the latter is faster, but not sure by how much (probably enough)
19:03 celeron55_ luajit optimizes stuff like that quite intensely AFAIK
19:04 celeron55_ as it's a table with static content
19:04 sapier1 Exio4 gamemgr should work for you now too as well as sane handling for register ":othermod:name"
19:04 hmmmm also:  you compare d == lava_flowing, not ids.lava_flowing, which i'm sure would cause a nil comparison error if it got to that point
19:05 sapier1 why shoud ids be a nil value?
19:05 hmmmm no, lava_flowing would be the nil value
19:06 sapier1 yes but d can't be nil .. can it
19:06 sapier1 =
19:06 celeron55_ you can compare it like that
19:06 celeron55_ but it won't do what you want it to 8)
19:07 celeron55_ d == ids.stone_with_mese
19:07 celeron55_ d == lava_flowing
19:08 celeron55_ d == ids.stone_with_gold
19:08 celeron55_ this probably makes the point clear
19:09 sapier1 what is lava_flowing anyway? it's not defined in that file?
19:09 Exio4 it is default:lava_flowing
19:09 Exio4 lava_flowing = minetest.get_content_id("default:lava_flowing"),
19:09 Exio4 ... as part of the "ids" table
19:09 sapier1 yes?
19:10 sapier1 so not defined
19:10 sapier1 ids. lava_flowing !=  lava_flowing those are completely different things ... do I miss something?
19:10 Exio4 that is what hmmmm is saying, he is comparing d with nil not the "real" lava_flowing
19:11 celeron55_ you miss the point completely
19:11 sapier1 ok ok ... didn't see that one :-) its l404 ... by purpose?
19:12 sapier1 ohh 405 :-)
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20:30 NakedFury HEY
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20:32 thexyz NakedFury: yes?
20:33 NakedFury sry about caps lock, just saying hey!
20:33 NakedFury hey!
20:33 NakedFury how are you?
20:34 sapier1 what about #minetest ;-)
20:41 PilzAdam hmmmm, ah, thanks, thats a typo
20:45 sapier1 anyone to merge https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/825 ?
20:46 PilzAdam hmmmm, indeed, a speed improvement of about 30 ms, it takes now 100 - 130 ms
20:46 sapier1 impressive
20:48 PilzAdam thats with LuaJIT, as celeron55_ said the improvement in pure Lua might be even better
20:49 PilzAdam sapier1, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/836 ?
20:49 sapier1 should merge cleanly after 825 is appliefd
20:50 PilzAdam woow, why is 825 so big again?
20:50 sapier1 because you(all) requested so many new features
20:51 PilzAdam why do you put everything into one pull request?
20:51 PilzAdam anyway, I dont even know where to start
20:51 PilzAdam +testing
20:51 sapier1 some of them depend on each other, especialy the filterlist required to provide your modpack mod hiding feature
20:52 sapier1 filterlist replaces 3 different list handlings distributed throughout code
20:53 sapier1 the favorites list is left but as it's not filtered there's no need to replace it
20:53 sapier1 for modstore search filterlist will be usefull again but that feature isn't added by now
20:54 PilzAdam there is debug output left
20:54 PilzAdam "current_game = <some dumped table>"
20:55 PilzAdam that enable all mods button is way too big, also disable all is missing
20:55 sapier1 there's even less use for disable all
20:55 PilzAdam and I cant enable or disable single mods now
20:56 PilzAdam (there is simply no checkbox for that)
20:56 sapier1 you can
20:56 sapier1 doubleclick
20:56 PilzAdam what?
20:56 sapier1 doubleclick the mod
20:56 PilzAdam "what" as in "wtf"
20:57 sapier1 you wanted another button menue would have gotten way to crowded by adding more and more buttons
20:57 PilzAdam that is totally unusable due to the fact that the list moves the selected item to the bottom when selecting
20:58 sapier1 you can doubleclick mods too
20:58 PilzAdam that needs to be fixed
20:59 sapier1 if you mean "get moved" by that talk to irrlicht ppl ;-)
20:59 PilzAdam you made it worse than it was before; it was actually usable before this pull request
21:00 sapier1 ok then remove it
21:00 PilzAdam what commits need to be removed?
21:00 sapier1 I wont add 8 buttons to a single page whith speaking names like "enable all" "enable" "enable something else"
21:01 PilzAdam and what is that "Game" tab supposed to be?
21:01 sapier1 a game manager
21:01 PilzAdam games are created by mod developers, not users
21:02 sapier1 no once users have lots of mods localy saved not wanting to enable all everytime they can create their own games easyly
21:05 PilzAdam why is "curl_timeout" not documented in minetest.conf.example?
21:05 sapier1 because it shouldn't be changed by normal ppl and is only there if we realize 5 seconds isn't enough
21:06 sapier1 could be case for download store for example
21:06 PilzAdam I dont see any headers at all in singleplayer tab
21:06 sapier1 maybe I don't have any game to test
21:07 sapier1 oops
21:08 sapier1 fixed
21:09 PilzAdam works
21:10 sapier1 ok back to mod selection topic ... yes the moving around issue isn't best but once you realized you need to select from last pos you can cope with it ... at least mouse distance is way shorter than to some wherever checkbox
21:10 sapier1 of course I admit a irrlicht solution would be best
21:11 PilzAdam even if you know how the bug works, its still unusable
21:11 sapier1 it is usable 1) click mod to enable 2) doubleclick mod at last pos
21:11 PilzAdam its counter-intuitive
21:12 PilzAdam just re-add the selectionbox
21:12 ShadowNinja PilzAdam: Normally content ids are prefixed with 'c_'.
21:12 PilzAdam also other people will have same trouble as me figuring out to use doubleclick to enable a mod
21:12 sapier1 ok but that'll be last change and drop the enable all mods button again
21:12 PilzAdam ShadowNinja, normally content ids are only used in core
21:13 PilzAdam sapier1, the gamemanger would make a lot more sense if you make a modmanager out of it
21:13 PilzAdam *modpackmanger
21:13 sapier1 no wouldn't
21:14 sapier1 because mods within modpacks still need to be unique
21:14 ShadowNinja PilzAdam: Not if you are using LuaVoxelManip...
21:14 sapier1 while you can keep old modversion within games
21:15 PilzAdam as I said earlier, games are created by game developers, they have a goal and a well-thought set of mods; users are not meant to create games
21:15 PilzAdam users can create modpacks, so they can use one modpack per worls if they want to
21:16 sapier1 if I did follow all opinions posted here there wouldn't be a modstore to download mods too ... so don't expect me to believe this and let community decide
21:16 sapier1 no they can't create a modpack as modpacks conflict
21:17 sapier1 you can't create a modpack from farming v1 and a second from farming v3
21:18 PilzAdam it only causes problems if you enable both modpacks in a world
21:18 sapier1 no it will skrew up modhandling in gui too
21:19 sapier1 and your beloved enable all mods button will be even less usable
21:19 sapier1 this whole gui concept is skrewed up and you still try to merge things that don't fit
21:20 PilzAdam umm.. I actually just try to restore what we had previously (re: configure window)
21:21 sapier1 btw is anyone else here who tested is and has the opinion old "enable" checkbox and "enable all" buttons shall return?
21:21 PilzAdam since that worked really well
21:21 sapier1 pilzadam this was done on YOUR request
21:21 PilzAdam "this"?
21:21 sapier1 you wanted enable all button as well as hidable mods
21:22 PilzAdam yes, it was so before the Lua menu
21:22 sapier1 crap this isn't c++ menu if you've been as ignorant to assume everything will be 100% identical I take that as your fault
21:23 sapier1 adding all those special features already got that menu to a level where it's original intention is almost lost
21:24 PilzAdam of course the default menu is bloated with functionality, we want to suit as many peoples needs as possible
21:24 PilzAdam we cant expect everyone to write their own menu
21:24 sapier1 if you want to improve that menu help finding a better solution that old c++ menu was but don't expect me to make the lua menu just a worse version of old one
21:26 sapier1 yes we can't but we don't need to support any single special feature right from begining ... no one will ever understand how to write anything for it
21:26 sapier1 that's exactly what happened to mobf it's 2years old now got 3 complete rewrites and a complexity you need to work almost 2 months with it to understand how it's code works
21:27 sapier1 you can create mobs without this knowledge but obviously moders don't want to use libs but write their own code ... same thing as plantlib
21:28 PilzAdam you thought that the menu would be simple?
21:28 sapier1 it was simple prior adding all special features not really necessary for a mainmenus basic functions
21:29 PilzAdam the gamemanager is not needed IMO
21:29 PilzAdam you would probably get rid of a lot of code if you remove it
21:29 sapier1 yes and gamemanager is by far most simple component
21:29 sapier1 no gamemanager is 310 lines including header .... only the buttonbar is smaler
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21:30 sapier1 oh sorry texture code is smaller too
21:30 sapier1 130 loc to decide what texture to set ;-)
21:31 PilzAdam the whole Lua menu thing was always under the condition that no functionality is lost
21:31 sapier1 but lets stop that useless discussion ... I want a second oppinion upon doubleclick
21:32 sapier1 that depends on what you consider to be a "functionality"
21:32 sapier1 VanessaE as you have a lot of problems with doubleclick can you test it?
21:34 hmmmm also sapier isn't the only coder in the universe
21:34 hmmmm others can add minor main menu details if they feel inclined to
21:34 PilzAdam sapier1 is still working on it, so I think it would most likely conflict with his work
21:35 sapier1 that's why I try to complete my work atm
21:35 sapier1 I'm gonna add your buttons as configurable option .. let community decide what version they want
21:37 hmmmm i was under the impression that he was done with the second batch of fixes (not feature requests)
21:38 sapier1 I wanted to get modstore ready to a state where it can be used so I consider the current set of fixes as my responsibility too
21:39 sapier1 but "bugreports" tend to become feature requests the last days
21:39 celeron55_ oh god oh god oh
21:40 celeron55_ in the previous discussion i'm completely with PilzAdam
21:41 PilzAdam :D
21:41 sapier1 on any single issue?
21:41 celeron55_ on everything i happened to care to read
21:41 sapier1 that's as usefull as saying nothing at all
21:42 celeron55_ the doubleclick and game thing at least
21:44 sapier1 do you really thing modpacks replace games too?
21:44 celeron55_ can you elaborate on how you want to handle games and why?
21:45 celeron55_ it seems like something quite different than what i remember thinking 0.4 should work
21:45 sapier1 I consider games as a consistent set of mods that shall be used in this combination
21:45 sapier1 a modpack is just a collection of mods that should be used together but not exclusively
21:46 celeron55_ games also have other stuff than mods; what do you do with that?
21:46 celeron55_ also how can you handle sharing worlds then?
21:46 sapier1 nothing atm gamemanager is a working prototype supporting basic features ... it can be extended or removed if ppl care about it or not
21:47 celeron55_ people will need to sometimes change the game name from the world and sometimes not, seemingly randomly
21:47 sapier1 celeron55 if you want to support any possible usecase we need a gui as complex as blender
21:47 sapier1 you'll always finde something to not work perfectly
21:47 PilzAdam sapier1, trying to create a world: minetest/bin/../builtin/mainmenu.lua:345: attempt to call field 'uid_exists' (a nil value)
21:48 celeron55_ sapier1: i would trust in you if it wasn't for the kind of stuff like replacing an intuitive way of enabling mods with doubleclick
21:48 celeron55_ +more
21:49 celeron55_ those things make it hard for me to think you can design a whole menu in a sane way
21:49 celeron55_ and a whole way of handling games
21:49 sapier1 imho doubleclick is intuitive to select something
21:49 sapier1 it's not as oldfashined as using a checkbox at the other end of gui yes
21:51 sapier1 did you know the gamemanager is available since first merge of mainmenu? the only difference to yesterday is it's enabled ... if you complain that much I'm going to disable it by default or delete it I don't care enough about this gui to argue any longer
21:51 sapier1 my goal was to add an easy way to download mods
21:52 celeron55_ just take it easy 8) as long as you can explain stuff, you're good
21:52 sapier1 still imho the doubleclick is best option and yes it suffers quite a lot by irrlicht limitations
21:53 sapier1 if someone gets this fixed in irrlicht there is no sane reason for a checkbox
21:54 celeron55_ PilzAdam: are you okay with going with this and seeing what users think (and letting sapier react to how users think)?
21:55 PilzAdam I dont really see a need for this since I am a "user" who reacts to this
21:55 celeron55_ well, you are one user, there are some other users of minetest AFAIK 8)
21:56 Exio4 i like the double click for enabling mods
21:57 celeron55_ i'd prefer to currently give sapier more freedom and then if it ends up as a mess, clean it up afterwards; it's not really like we know yet what is best for it
21:57 Exio4 /disabling
21:57 PilzAdam I dont like the idea of pushing broken code (exxageration) to upstream and see if users will find it and complain
21:57 celeron55_ altough i respect PilzAdam more in this than myself; i use it SO rarely currently that i shouldn't really be even talking now
21:58 Exio4 i think 'testing' would work
21:58 celeron55_ PilzAdam: as long as it isn't released as stable, it's not really such a problem
21:58 Exio4 does anyone recall those common mods? ;)
21:58 PilzAdam Exio4, no!
21:58 celeron55_ there is an exception to that though: save file breaking code
22:00 Exio4 PilzAdam: make a win build + asking in forums
22:01 Exio4 that would show how the 'users' react
22:02 Exio4 i don't really think that would be needed, i actually see this 'fancy way' very nice and intuitive (imo, of course)
22:06 PilzAdam kahrl, are the positions passed to VoxelArea:iterp() relative or absolute?
22:34 sapier1 825 added setting for old style mod selection
22:36 sapier1 I consider mainmenu as finished now, I'll fix only bugs until things have settled down
22:41 ShadowNinja sapier1: Are mods in the configure screen indented based on modpack?
22:43 sapier They should be yes but only one level is supported
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22:45 sapier Meaning i don't know how it's gonna look like for modpack in modpack
22:46 * ShadowNinja has about four levels of modpacks...
22:47 sapier No way to get that done with current formspecs
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23:30 kahrl PilzAdam: absolute
23:31 kahrl hmm, about the menu discussion, I think the menu suffers from limiting ourselves to what the irrlicht GUI can do
23:31 kahrl for example if we wrote our own GUI elements, we could have a listbox (or treeview) with a checkbox left of each element
23:32 kahrl which would be best for the mod list I think
23:32 PilzAdam kahrl, do you see anything wrong in this: https://gist.github.com/PilzAdam/6025502 ?
23:33 kahrl shouldn't that be VoxelArea:new{MinEdge=emin, MaxEdge=emax}?
23:34 PilzAdam oh
23:34 PilzAdam that fixes it, thx
23:35 PilzAdam ShadowNinja, caves in nether mod should be fixed now
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23:59 ShadowNinja PilzAdam: It is still just search and replace. It should create it's own mapgen.

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