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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2013-06-30

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Time Nick Message
00:11 Jordach joined #minetest-dev
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00:37 hmmmm well i'm not even sure what you're trying to accomplish there
00:38 Exio hmmmm: set the liquid_loop_max to 0 or 1 or something "insanely slow", generate a new map and you'll see a lot of "air holes" where the dungeons and caves get generated
00:40 hmmmm that's not supposed to happen for caves at least
00:41 Exio for the dungeons, it is a "one liner fix" (more like and if that isn't done in the air-generation but is in the wall-gen)
00:42 Exio for the caves, you are actually doing the if outside the if (large_cave) {} else {} for cave-v7
00:42 Exio but in the cave-v6 it is done inside the "small_cave" section
00:42 hmmmm for the dungeons, it's intentionally that way
00:43 Exio ah
00:43 hmmmm for caves v7, i did that for a different reason; i attempted to make small caves link together but it doesn't work too well
00:43 hmmmm instead what it does is eats through oceans and leaves 'bright spots'
00:44 Exio it looks like a glitch, that is why i though that wasn't intentional
00:44 celeron55 Exio: how much have you tested the patch?
00:45 hmmmm so, for v6 small caves at least, it can't replace content_ignore or else that'll happen, it can't replace water for the same exact reason (for a spot that's already generated), lava doesn't really matter too much, nothing is "buggy" when we're talking caves at the lava depth
00:45 hmmmm and not replacing air when it already places the air, that's so it doesn't mark places above ground as part of the caves
00:45 Exio celeron55: not a really lot but generated a lot of terrain (mainly was generating and checking if there was any "bubble")
00:45 hmmmm but since those flags are never used, it doesn't actually matter a whole lot
00:46 hmmmm as for large caves, water is placed where water would normally be generated so that check isn't needed there
00:46 celeron55 i mean, i shortly thought through the thing and it seems it makes sense for the water/lava part
00:46 celeron55 or at least water
00:46 hmmmm lava again doesn't matter too much, air doesn't matter either because it's placing air
00:47 Exio i just re-used the code that is behind
00:47 Exio i only would have checked for water :P
00:47 hmmmm yeah, bad idea.
00:48 Exio i thought the if was "correct"
00:48 hmmmm for dungeons you never check any of that, since you'd lose any neat effect of it looking destroyed by lava for example
00:49 celeron55 actually i think the ignore check is necessary too
00:49 hmmmm for what, dungeons?
00:49 celeron55 i am talking about this and only this https://github.com/EXio4/minetest/commit/08cd5809f4e8bd6ef253fbde0e5122440d507812
00:50 celeron55 dungeons are supposed to get generated on top of ignore, caves are not
00:50 hmmmm large caves need to be generated on top of ignore or else it'll get walled in by the next generated chunk and it'd look really odd
00:51 celeron55 is that something you have changed?
00:51 hmmmm no, that's the way it's been since forever
00:51 celeron55 umm... well i guess so then
00:51 hmmmm ...
00:52 hmmmm you're generating a large cave and it bumps up against the boundary, which happens to *not* be generated at this point
00:52 hmmmm since it's ignore, it wouldn't be written at all
00:52 hmmmm then that next chunk gets generated and places all stone nodes
00:52 hmmmm since it's still content ignore and not air
00:52 celeron55 i was thinking that maybe it previously generated all of the loaded ground, but that doesn't make that much sense
00:52 hmmmm so then when the player explores that cave, he'll notice a straight, smooth vertical wall cutting off the cave at the edge of a chunk boundary
00:53 hmmmm this is *undesirable*
00:53 celeron55 you don't need to explain that to me, it's not like i don't know
00:53 hmmmm it didn't seem that way with the "ummm.. well i guess so then"
00:55 celeron55 anyway, i think the large cave could check for water and lava and not replace them with air
00:55 celeron55 changing anything else than adding those two checks is probably a bad idea
00:58 Exio celeron55: https://github.com/EXio4/minetest/commit/b4c881eed0e0c17c64646fa9e93d55bb06fef566 ?
00:59 celeron55 ...
00:59 Exio wut?
00:59 hmmmm checking for water in large caves won't do anything, since water is placed in the same spot anyway
00:59 celeron55 you added two checks and *removed* two checks
00:59 celeron55 hmmmm: it does not?
01:00 hmmmm it does though
01:00 Exio well, whatever
01:00 celeron55 if that is the case, then there's no point in anything
01:00 Exio ^ exactly
01:00 hmmmm if (flooded && full_ymin < water_level && full_ymax > water_level) {
01:00 hmmmm vm->m_data[i] = (p.Y <= water_level) ? waternode : airnode;
01:00 celeron55 erm
01:00 celeron55 so does it or not?
01:01 hmmmm water occurs anywhere below water_level naturally
01:01 hmmmm the only place where this would make a difference is if flooded == false
01:01 hmmmm and that's with proller's version
01:01 celeron55 hmm ah, yes
01:02 celeron55 so the thing Exio is trying to fix is actually taken care of already
01:02 Exio then i guess i have a commit somewhere hidden in my mt
01:02 hmmmm well what he was trying to fix is a visible problem
01:02 hmmmm you can notice it apparently by disabling liquid transforming
01:03 hmmmm well; 'problem' here is being used leniently here
01:03 celeron55 the air bubbles exio is seeing could be large caves that were generated on top of ignore, and the water not getting generated on that in the neighboring chunk
01:04 celeron55 or the bottom parts of small caves at the ocean floor (which will be air)
01:04 celeron55 probably both
01:04 hmmmm nevertheless; 'problems' with map generation are pretty subjective and don't affect much
01:04 celeron55 both are hard to fix and it's probably just best to let the water flow there with the existing flowing mechanisms...
01:05 Exio i guess
01:05 Exio then proller will rage at you for his ocean flowing away ;P
01:05 hmmmm i thought it replenishes itself if the water around it has a sufficient mass to prevent that sort of thing
01:06 Exio hmmmm: with finite_liquid(s)
01:06 hmmmm yeah
01:06 hmmmm the so-called 'relax' setting or something like that; not really familiar with how finite liquids work
01:07 Exio well, i'm not really sure
01:08 celeron55 once again we could make a "perfect" world by always generating water and never air below ocean level, but that would be boring as hell
01:08 celeron55 it's always a compromise
01:20 hmmmm making it better would involve changing some water physics... i noticed from watching minecraft videos that if a large space of air is surrounded by a big enough amount of water, it'll flood fill it all immediately
01:21 hmmmm if we did something like that there'd be less bubbles
01:21 Exio something like making "water flow" on mapgen time?
01:21 hmmmm no... nothing like that
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16:45 proller bug in collision 8(
16:47 proller sand stuck because collision with bottom-left(maybe right top bottom) block, with empty bottom
16:47 proller and falling check empty bottom and skip it
16:48 proller can reproduce on float islands with falling sand
16:55 celeron55 well that is 100% likely a floating point precision problem and the only way to fix it will be making the collision box smaller
16:55 celeron55 or, well... probably some other way too, which is a variation of the same fix
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17:04 proller im trying debug and find how smaller
18:00 Taoki http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=97450#p97450
18:13 Taoki http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=97455#p97455 Better screenshots
18:14 VanessaE Taoki: beautiful.
18:14 Taoki Thanks
18:14 Taoki http://i42.tinypic.com/2hzsvgn.png ---- http://i44.tinypic.com/jkevkg.png
18:28 proller falling collision fix - https://github.com/proller/minetest/commit/9c2026799dec58aab4a465e8aa80613f41bdf4e9 any objections?
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18:36 hmmmm isn't 0.03125 way too big for a floating point error?
18:36 hmmmm should be more like 0.00004 or something
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18:39 proller its not very floating, its near algo error
18:41 proller bunches of sand fall better than before
18:41 proller more smooth
18:41 proller without micro jumps
18:42 proller will commit!
18:43 proller if it broke something - easy to back via #define COLL_ZERO 0
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20:17 Taoki PilzAdam: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=97481#p97481 Can you please make another build? I just amended the commit 60 seconds ago to fix the yellow fog
20:17 PilzAdam hm?
20:17 Taoki Well not really fix... made it a little bit more orange tinted. But overall it gives a nicer feel, so it's a little better
20:18 Taoki erm...
20:18 Taoki PilzAdam: Sorry, that's sfan5. He has the same avatar as you on the Forum :P
20:18 PilzAdam no, he has not
20:18 PilzAdam he has an apple in the tree IIRC
20:18 Taoki Ah, it's the default avatar then
20:18 Taoki strange, I see the default one
20:18 PilzAdam there is no default avatar
20:18 sfan5 Taoki: ok
20:20 Taoki But yeah, I got it looking as good as it can look at least for the time being
20:20 sfan5 it looks awesome
20:20 Taoki Thanks
20:21 PilzAdam proller, nice! you broke unittests!
20:21 sfan5 hah
20:21 Taoki PilzAdam: If you wish, see latest screenshots and try the code. I'd like to know if you agree. Note that it's unlikely I can improve anything any more howevber
20:21 PilzAdam proller, revert that commit
20:21 Taoki What's unittests?
20:21 proller hm
20:21 proller wait..
20:22 sfan5 Taoki: some tests that ensure e.g. that the configuration saving of strings/numbers/floats/booleans etc. works
20:23 Taoki ok :)
20:23 Taoki Taking opinions on the fog color for 1 - 2 more hours or so, then I'll pull request it (not like I expect that to make a difference ;] )
20:23 Taoki **fog code
20:26 PilzAdam Taoki, clouds and fog have different colors
20:26 Taoki They can't always be matched
20:26 PilzAdam they should
20:26 PilzAdam otherwise it looks weird
20:26 PilzAdam e.g. the clouds are orange and the fog is yellow
20:27 Taoki I didn't even notice. Nor have any way to do that I can think of
20:27 Taoki Fig is now orange-ish too
20:27 Taoki **fog
20:28 Taoki Also, after the sun has fully set, there's a discrete purple-red tint at the horrizon. No way I can match the fog to that. And it's the most beautiful part of the new colors
20:29 Taoki erm, match the clouds to that x.x
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20:30 PilzAdam your patch doesnt look good as it is currently
20:30 proller tests must be fixed
20:30 Taoki What's not good about it?
20:30 PilzAdam the colors dont match the ambient
20:30 PilzAdam maybe try using the cloud color
20:31 Taoki Cloud colors would ruin it. And sunrise / sunset is meant to not match the sky color
20:31 PilzAdam proller, also I dont see that any other core dev has agreed to your commit
20:32 Taoki The fog colors tend to match cloud colors to a small extent though... at least the orange / yellow part
20:32 proller PilzAdam, nobody against
20:32 Taoki Also, fog is added together with the horrizon. The horrizon didn't match cloud colors before either
20:33 PilzAdam proller, the rule is that somebody has to agree on this
20:33 PilzAdam also hmmmm was against it
20:33 Taoki Nor does this feature do so in Minecraft. Not that we need to copy how it's done there, but no one complains about it there either
20:33 Taoki (I think in MC clouds are always white)
20:34 proller PilzAdam, its was remark
20:34 Taoki Anyway, those aren't things I can change. I'll pull request it and see what the other devs think
20:35 Taoki Not surprised if this also goes to the trash can like many contributions though, for all sorts of reasons. When after 3 days of working on it I managed to add an awesome featoure to Minetest (hardly even as it is now)
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21:07 hmmmm ?
21:07 hmmmm the latest commit?  i wasn't against it, but we can't have things breaking unit tests
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