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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2013-05-07

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Time Nick Message
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05:39 sfan5 can i merge https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/699 ?
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06:16 celeron55 sfan5: i think it wasn't really agreed that the protocol is good
06:18 celeron55 (and IMO it isn't)
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12:12 sfan5 can i merge https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/699 ?
12:13 PilzAdam if it works
12:18 sfan5 it does
12:18 sfan5 its really awesome
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12:20 kahrl sfan5: have you seen celeron's response?
12:20 Calinou +1
12:20 sfan5 kahrl: no..
12:21 kahrl check the logs
12:21 sfan5 hmm..
12:21 Calinou while we're about player moddability, it would be nice if we could choose max health per-player :P
12:22 sfan5 kahrl: what about adding an extra packet type for that?
12:22 kahrl guess that can be done
12:22 kahrl just seemed like a waste to me to have 5 messages just for hud
12:23 kahrl but message IDs are 16 bit so it really doesn't matter
12:23 sfan5 yeah
12:23 sfan5 if you'd add that I could merge it
12:23 Calinou https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/409
12:23 Calinou can this be merged?
12:23 Calinou or are glitch ladders part of the game?
12:24 PilzAdam I already wanted this to be merged, but people were against it
12:24 kahrl sfan5: not sure if that is what celeron meant
12:24 kahrl I thought he was talking about the specificness of the protocol
12:25 Calinou PilzAdam: well, you can merge it, on top of that, speedhack prevention makes glitch ladders much harder to use if you don't have fast privilege
12:25 PilzAdam so, sfan5, if you dont merge it now then Id like to update the default controls in README.txt
12:25 sfan5 PilzAdam: you can do that
12:31 kahrl hmm I'm getting a weird crash in the main menu (current master)
12:32 kahrl if you start the game with selected_mainmenu_tab = 2, then switch to the singleplayer tab it crashed - known bug?
12:32 sfan5 a case for gdb
12:32 PilzAdam reproduceable
12:33 VanessaE I've experienced that crash too
12:33 kahrl actually you can switch to any other tab
12:33 VanessaE couldn't figure out a pattern to it though
12:33 kahrl but it has to start on tab 2
12:34 VanessaE definitely don't merge the 'glitch' ladder fix.
12:37 celeron55 kahrl: i think it shouldn't be in the same packet, as the existing packet is clearly designed as one purpose per packet
12:37 celeron55 just add a new packet that eg. sets an enumed hud integer parameter or something
12:38 celeron55 or a list of such parameters
12:38 celeron55 whatever
12:39 celeron55 keep in mind that eg. the player position is updated 10 times a second; sending 1 set-up thing like that is equal to doing nothing
12:39 celeron55 (as it usually isn't even used)
12:41 PilzAdam https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/commit/5ea41686addb68ca1124aa0222d82788101e0dd1
12:41 PilzAdam anything to add/change?
12:41 kahrl hmm
12:42 kahrl it felt so similar to a HUD flag, with the exception that it can take on a wider range of values than true/false
12:42 kahrl maybe the lua api should be like player:hud_set_flags({hotbar_itemcount=9})
12:43 VanessaE wairt
12:43 VanessaE wait.
12:44 VanessaE it doesn't make any sense to write "Esc: pause menu"
12:44 VanessaE you're already there if you're seeing that message
12:44 VanessaE er, "this menu" (looked at the wrong file)
12:44 PilzAdam yea
12:45 PilzAdam do we want a complete list there?
12:45 VanessaE that's just a *little* redundant I'd say :)
12:45 PilzAdam or just the basic things like I currently have it?
12:45 kahrl the message is accurate. if you press Esc it pauses the menu
12:45 VanessaE just the basics that you have now; why'd you drop the "0...9" reference?
12:46 PilzAdam to not bloat it
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12:46 PilzAdam it was also wrong
12:47 VanessaE true, it should have read 1-8.
12:47 VanessaE still, it's okay to drop it I guess
12:47 kahrl well, if you set hotbar_itemcount to 10 it accepts 0-9
12:47 PilzAdam its for pro players only, and they are able to find out about it without it being added there :-)
12:48 VanessaE one thing that is sorely needed on that menu is better formatting.  All the crap on the left, for example/.
12:48 VanessaE Why is most of that stuff even written there of all places?
12:48 VanessaE that's debug info and belongs in the log
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12:49 celeron55 it's there because it was the only menu in the whole game for some months at the beginning
12:49 celeron55 8)
12:49 celeron55 = because random
12:49 VanessaE heh
12:49 smoke_fumus where can i drop suggestion?
12:49 PilzAdam what to put there instead?
12:49 VanessaE why am I not surprised ;)
12:49 PilzAdam smoke_fumus, forums?
12:50 VanessaE PilzAdam: nothing - leave it blank, or use it for more keybindings
12:50 smoke_fumus :| can i just tell it here to example?
12:50 VanessaE smoke_fumus: if you leave your suggestion here, it will get lost
12:50 smoke_fumus so i get it no core developers are here atm
12:50 PilzAdam smoke_fumus, the risk chance that you spam this channel with useless stuff is too high, sry :-
12:50 PilzAdam -risk
12:51 PilzAdam +/
12:51 VanessaE no, the core devs are working on other stuff right now, so your suggestion would literally get misplaced.  on the forum, there's a record of it that can be referred to later.
12:51 smoke_fumus okay i'll type it here, brainstorm and then post formed on forums
12:51 PilzAdam Ill push that update controls for now
12:52 PilzAdam suggestion for a redesigned pause menu are welcome
12:52 VanessaE PilzAdam: I'll see if I can throw together a good mockup later
12:52 kahrl I think the neatest place for the debug info would be a chat command
12:52 smoke_fumus :D and its not useless actually. i just were looking at current minetest, back to back with 0.2~, and noticed that torches are still flat. there are 2 ways make them 3d. 1 is obv. minecraft way of single pixel row. another one is more usable - make them volume voxels too
12:53 smoke_fumus if anyone played and modded red alert 2/C&C tiberian sun it should be fammiliar
12:53 kahrl that is intercepted client side, not sent to the server
12:53 VanessaE smoke_fumus: there are already mods that solve that issue
12:53 PilzAdam smoke_fumus, there are several 3D torch mods out there
12:53 smoke_fumus are they add 1 pixel layer torches or true 3d voxel ones?
12:54 PilzAdam they use nodeboxes
12:54 smoke_fumus PilzAdam: um. what's a nodebox?
12:55 PilzAdam basically the latter one
12:55 PilzAdam oh, and this is exactly the kind of discussion that doesnt belong in this channel
12:55 PilzAdam #minetest is for this
12:55 PilzAdam (Im there too)
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13:14 kahrl well the main menu crash happens in guiMainMenu.cpp:1145
13:15 kahrl there's two different widgets that have the id GUI_ID_WORLD_LISTBOX
13:16 kahrl the one in the singleplayer tab and the one in the advanced tab
13:17 kahrl but m_world_indices is only filled when on the singleplayer tab, as far as I understand; but when you switch away from the advanced tab it tries to read from it
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13:19 kahrl I think the proper fix would be to also filter the worlds by game on the advanced tab, not only on the singleplayer tab
13:19 PilzAdam I think the advanced tab should stay as it is
13:20 VanessaE I agree with kahrl here actually.
13:20 VanessaE as long as those filter buttons are displayed on every tab, they should be used where possible.
13:20 VanessaE (and appropriate)
13:21 PilzAdam its good that you can get a complete world list in the advanced tab currently
13:21 PilzAdam and the game buttons should be only visible in the Singleplayer tab
13:21 VanessaE PilzAdam: agreed.
13:22 kahrl are people actually using the advanced tab? other than ^
13:22 VanessaE well, display them in Singleplayer and Advanced tabs
13:22 VanessaE but nowhere else
13:22 PilzAdam kahrl, c55 seems to have strong feelings about it
13:22 VanessaE kahrl:  I doubt many people seriously use that feature that aren't already running the standalone server
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13:23 PilzAdam its basically the old format from 0.3 and it should stay as it is
13:24 PilzAdam it basically contains everything from Single- and Multiplayer combined
13:24 kahrl yeah but that's kind of redundant isn't it?
13:24 VanessaE honestly, the Advanced tab is a little confusing
13:24 VanessaE get rid of it.
13:24 VanessaE encourage users to just run the standalone server if they need it.
13:24 VanessaE otherwise, use the other tabs
13:25 PilzAdam no, its the advanced tab for advanced users
13:25 hmmmm about the HUD set hotbar count thing
13:25 VanessaE yeah but the only function it has there that the othet tabs don't is the ability to start a dedicated (if temporary)server
13:25 VanessaE hmmmm: sounds good to me.
13:25 hmmmm i'm thinking about it, and maybe it'd be a good idea to reserve hud ID -2 for the builtin hotbar or something
13:26 hmmmm that way we have complete control over the builtin hud without adding more packets or anything like that
13:26 hmmmm and you can modify the item count through the existing hud api
13:26 VanessaE (damn it, I need a new brain.  misread AGAIN)
13:26 hmmmm hud api interface* to be specific
13:26 hmmmm you'd still need to make an exception when looking it up that it's the builtin itembar
13:27 hmmmm gotta go man, school
13:27 hmmmm later
13:27 VanessaE cya
13:27 kahrl hmmmm: does the luahud support hotbars with a selection frame for the selected item?
13:28 kahrl well, answer after school :)
13:31 kaeza kaeza, yes
13:31 kaeza derp
13:31 kaeza kahrl, ^
13:31 VanessaE lol
13:31 kaeza use the `item' field
13:31 * kaeza just pinged himself :|
13:31 kahrl oh, ok
13:32 * VanessaE hands kaeza a box of fresh pings.
13:32 kahrl that kind of forces gamemodes with hotbar_itemcount != 8 to have a laggy hotbar though
13:33 PilzAdam doesnt the client predict it somehow?
13:33 kahrl don't think so
13:33 kaeza one of my original ideas for the HUD additions was to add functions to modify the builtin HUD
13:33 kaeza celeron didn't like it tho'
13:35 kaeza but since you're adding hotbar_itemcount, why not modify the builtin hotbar when it is set to a value?
13:35 kahrl kaeza: re changing builtin hud, probably better in the long run to allow to remake the builtin hud entirely from lua
13:35 kaeza I see no reason to set itemcount to 10 and show 8 items in the hotbar
13:36 kahrl with sufficient prediction to make it not laggy
13:36 VanessaE speaking of prediction, is there any reason we don't do that with crafting, by the way?
13:36 kahrl what do you mean? if itemcount is 10 it shows 10 items
13:37 kaeza hmm... this is just a silly (and prolly hacky) idea, but why not reuse player:hud_change() ?
13:37 kahrl VanessaE: could be done but client doesn't have the craft definitions currently
13:37 PilzAdam I generally think we need more prediction
13:38 PilzAdam clients notice too much lag
13:38 kaeza player:hud_change("builtin_healthbar", "position", {x=1,y=0})
13:38 kaeza ...etc
13:38 VanessaE kahrl: that needs changed in the near future
13:38 kaeza hmm... forget about it... IDs are ints not strings
13:38 VanessaE probably before 0.4.7 goes out
13:39 kahrl kaeza: that's what hmmmm meant by reserving an ID
13:39 kahrl not sure if he meant for hud_change or only for hud_remove
13:40 kahrl probably hud_change as hud_set_flags does the other thing already
13:41 kahrl VanessaE: why?
13:41 VanessaE kahrl: ever played on a laggy server?  Having your attempts to craft something rejected before you even get the whole recipe in place is VERY frustrating.
13:42 VanessaE place item..place item...oops!  everything went back to the inventory
13:42 VanessaE repeat until the lag ends.
13:42 kahrl but would prediction fix that?
13:43 kahrl the server would just reset your inventory until before you crafted
13:43 VanessaE it couls help anyway
13:43 VanessaE could*
13:44 VanessaE the idea is to accept or reject the craft at all - instead everything stays in the crafting grid until the server allows it.
13:44 VanessaE that way the inventory doesn't have to be reset.
13:45 VanessaE there's the corner case of someone mining a bunch of crap while their crafting grid is loaded up, but I dunno what to do abotu that
13:45 VanessaE about*
13:45 VanessaE er, the idea is to *not accept*
13:45 kahrl I haven't really played on servers that reset your inventory so I can't relate
13:45 VanessaE trust me, it's annoying.
13:45 kahrl are any of those up?
13:46 VanessaE mine tends to do that when it lags.
13:46 VanessaE afaik all servers do that though.
13:57 VanessaE at any rate, PilzAdam is right - the client needs to do a lot more prediction, anywhere that it can imho.
14:00 RealBadAngel especially regarding entities
14:00 RealBadAngel hi all
14:01 VanessaE hey RBA
14:02 RealBadAngel more i think about sky, more basic stuff pops up
14:03 sfan5 hi RBA
14:03 VanessaE like what?
14:03 RealBadAngel time and sun position
14:03 PilzAdam kahrl, also starting a (local) game in Advanced tab crashes the game
14:04 RealBadAngel in the future we will need to know exact sky position
14:04 RealBadAngel i will need it sooner tho ;)
14:05 RealBadAngel i'd like to put there implementation of fiat_lux.py
14:05 RealBadAngel script that calculates sun position on the sphere with pos and time
14:06 RealBadAngel later on we will have position for sun (light source)
14:07 RealBadAngel and maybe ability to simulate seasons and geographical regions
14:08 RealBadAngel anybody like the idea?
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14:33 VanessaE seasons?  I dunno.  geographical regions?  sure, if you just mean north-south
14:35 PilzAdam it could be based on the biome you are in? e.g. high sun in desert, low sun in snow biome?
14:36 VanessaE I dunno, deserts/snow biomes are way too small for that to look right though
14:37 VanessaE I mean, you cross from grass->desert, the sun suddenly jumps way up high into the sky?  no
14:37 kahrl you could make the world a torus and calculate the solar irradiation at any point of the surface based on that
14:39 VanessaE that would work, but getting the world to render that way when you cross from -31k to +31k is the issue then
14:39 VanessaE no one seems to want to approach that issue :)
14:40 kahrl I could imagine doing the rendering part... but how would the mapgen ensure that there are no edges?
14:40 VanessaE no clue
14:41 VanessaE linear interpolation of the last 20m or so on each side?
14:41 RealBadAngel sun would behave the same on both world edges
14:41 sfan5 thexyz: 4aiman posts many "Ban me!" topics in General Discussion
14:41 kahrl anyway my suggestion wasn't really serious. Biomes created that way would be hella boring
14:41 PilzAdam sfan5, do not ban him
14:42 sfan5 PilzAdam: why?
14:42 PilzAdam troll
14:42 VanessaE he already asked me in PM to ban him.  I refused.
14:42 sfan5 i'll just tempban him for 1 day
14:42 RealBadAngel demand $10 donation for banning
14:42 thexyz → #minetest
14:44 RealBadAngel nothing is really free, even one click causes mice to dye sooner.
14:44 RealBadAngel *die
14:53 kahrl I thought those were hamsters that powered the minetest.net server, not mice
14:54 celeron55 well, forum.minetest.net and www.minetest.net are different servers; thexyz uses mice, i use hamsters
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15:44 hmmmm [09:42 AM] <kahrl> but would prediction fix that?   definitely
15:44 hmmmm i have only played multiplayer minetest a couple times, but i can say that it is the most annoying thing ever
15:44 hmmmm in fact, it's almost frustrating enough to make me not want to play it at all
15:45 hmmmm let's serialize the craftdefs and send those to players
15:45 hmmmm the results of which are sent to the server for validation
15:45 VanessaE agreed
15:46 hmmmm as for the builtin hud, this is a bit of a reason why i wanted to generalize things
15:46 hmmmm everybody that isn't me have been adding exceptions for "builtin" things to the _interface_
15:46 hmmmm to the lua api and the protocol
15:47 hmmmm if you have a special ID reserved for the builtin items, then you'd be able to modify them just like any other item (except not remove, yet)
15:48 kaeza > everybody that isn't me <-- /me too
15:48 hmmmm and what's more is, if in the future we somehow get client-side lua, then those builtin hud elements don't need to be builtin anymore and we can simply change the macros for builtin IDs from -2 to say, 0, as in the element that was added first
15:49 hmmmm kaeza, hud_set_builtin_visible? :/
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15:51 kaeza hmmmm, player:hud_change(-1, "visible", true)
15:52 kaeza or: player:hud_change(HUD_BUILTIN_HOTBAR, "visible", true)
15:52 kaeza (HUD_BUILTIN_HOTBAR defined in default)
15:53 hmmmm -1 is reserved for an invalid hud id
15:53 kaeza that was an example
15:54 PilzAdam a bad one
15:54 kaeza meh
15:54 hmmmm that's something that could be done
15:54 hmmmm and it wouldn't break any protocol
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16:18 celeron55 a reminder: in my opinion 0.4.7 should be released quite soon
16:19 celeron55 also, IMO it should have already been released because of bugs
16:20 celeron55 i think a fixed release schedule would help with everyone just posponing releases infinitely
16:20 celeron55 but otoh, i am not interested in enforcing such
16:20 celeron55 postponing*
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16:29 hmmmm i thought i told people to release the fixed 0.4.6
16:29 hmmmm anyway, lesson learned, we are NOT doing any half-length feature freezes anymore
16:30 celeron55 a fixed 0.4.6 is 0.4.7
16:30 celeron55 we do not do any half-patch releases
16:30 celeron55 the last number is the patch number and it is always increased
16:31 celeron55 that is why locking features to a certain n.n.x is dumb
16:31 hmmmm if you really want to consider the last version digit as the patch, then minetest should be way past what it is right now
16:32 celeron55 one can think of that in many ways
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16:33 celeron55 i think we could do the same as linux did and just say it's 1.0.0 because development seems to roll on at a steady pace without incompatible rework going on in a long time
16:33 hmmmm then what's with 0.4.4-d1?
16:33 celeron55 hmmmm: it isn't a release
16:33 hmmmm meh whatever
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16:33 celeron55 it was just a way to make it easier to differentiate certain builds with many features from the previous ones because it was likely to cause confusion
16:34 celeron55 or something like that
16:36 celeron55 hmmmm: have you considered my requests for having a written plan for the minetest engine for roughly a year ahead or so?
16:38 hmmmm yes i have
16:38 hmmmm but it's not happening immediately
16:38 hmmmm i have a _lot_ of other things to write first
16:38 hmmmm i'll be able to get back into the groove of minetest in about two weeks
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16:45 celeron55 it should clear up the uncertainty somewhat (unless your plan is widely disagreed on, in which case we do need to do something about it)
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16:48 Jordach hmmmm, when did minetest become vinyl
16:51 ImQ009 joined #minetest-dev
16:52 Calinou since ponies invaded this game
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16:55 BlockMen the spawn point is fixed, right (not spawing in the air)?
16:55 Exio should be
16:56 BlockMen hmm, i spawned inside of a tree node yesterday
16:56 BlockMen (just one time, but i thought you want know)
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17:21 rubenwardy "invalid startposIndex: (5,7,6)Realpos: (74,13,-611)
17:21 rubenwardy when using minetest.env:find_path
17:23 rubenwardy woops
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17:42 RealBadAngel celeron55, its good to have a plan :) i know exactly what i will be coding next few weeks
17:43 Jordach +bug fixes
17:43 RealBadAngel those too
17:43 RealBadAngel i mean THE plan
17:45 RealBadAngel i want to learn everything bout meshes (so, im learnin irrlicht, blender, and other weird stuff that pops up_
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17:46 RealBadAngel also the shaders
17:47 RealBadAngel i learned how they work already
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