IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2013-05-02

Time	Nick	Message
00:40	RealBadAngel	sapier: +minetest.remove_craft(reciep)
00:40	RealBadAngel	theres a typo
00:43		dexter0 joined #minetest-dev
00:51		jojoa1997 joined #minetest-dev
03:37	kahrl_	right now common mods are loaded in the order specified in the game configuration, and ignore dependencies. Is there a specific reason for that?
03:37	kahrl_	Or just because it was easier to code?
03:38	kahrl_	(I need to know if I can make them check dependencies, or if that would break stuff)
03:38		drjoe joined #minetest-dev
03:38	drjoe	hi
03:43	kahrl_	doctor doctor, can't you see I'm coding, coding?
03:58	hmmmmmm	people seem to be upset over the suggestion to change the name of the core
03:58	VanessaE	quite so.
03:58	hmmmmmm	and celeron isn't supportive like i sort of imagined
03:59	VanessaE	maybe I'll just delete that whole thread then
03:59	RealBadAngel	i think he found it actually funny
03:59	hmmmmmm	nooo....
03:59	VanessaE	seeing as how the trend is to keep the existing name
03:59	RealBadAngel	he plays with some generator to get funny names ;)
04:00	drjoe	why change the name anyway
04:00	hmmmmmm	it should be a topic open to debate
04:00	RealBadAngel	hmmmmmm, have you seen what i did to sky?
04:00	hmmmmmm	don't just delete the thread
04:00	hmmmmmm	RealBadAngel i have not
04:00	RealBadAngel	http://i.imgur.com/JmuHeve.png
04:00	VanessaE	drjoe: to keep noobs from confusing the engine for minetest_game, e.g. the content thereof
04:00	VanessaE	hmmmmmm: ok,
04:00	hmmmmmm	woah
04:00	VanessaE	it stays open.
04:00	VanessaE	hmmmmmm: he has the sun done, too :)
04:00	hmmmmmm	that's something i can't get used to, but i like the concept
04:00	hmmmmmm	needs to be way smaller
04:00	VanessaE	http://i.imgur.com/hVGQqi3.jpg
04:01	drjoe	so the game it self is still gonna be minetest?
04:01	hmmmmmm	unless you're trying to look like GTA vice city
04:01	hmmmmmm	drjoe, yes
04:01	drjoe	but minetest_game is gonna be freemine?
04:01	hmmmmmm	other way around
04:01	VanessaE	drjoe: "the game" is one of four standard games available for the engine from the standard repositories.
04:01	RealBadAngel	hmmmmmm, im just playing with settings
04:01	hmmmmmm	as for the banners and what not
04:01	VanessaE	(counting "minimal" as a game)
04:01	drjoe	i msuper confues as long as the whole pakage is called minetest i dont care
04:01	hmmmmmm	we need to figure some way to change those based on game
04:01	RealBadAngel	i think moon_size and sun_size shall be exposed for modding
04:02	VanessaE	RealBadAngel: yes
04:02	hmmmmmm	lol
04:02	hmmmmmm	shall
04:02	hmmmmmm	whenever you use the word shall, you sound like technical documentation
04:02	RealBadAngel	ok, i will just do it :)
04:02	VanessaE	lol
04:04	VanessaE	RealBadAngel: <Abe> COOOOOL! (re: texturable sun/moon)
04:04	kahrl_	I'm about to add dependency resolving and modpack support to common mods. Any reason not to?
04:04	ShadowNinja	hmmmmmm: You seem to be thinking unusually long today ;-)
04:05	kahrl_	I doubt modpacks will be used much there, but it's good for symmetry I think
04:05	ShadowNinja	kahrl_: I think that was TODO, at least from PlizAdam's commit messages
04:06	hmmmmmm	that's because i dropped twice
04:06	drjoe	well im out peeps
04:06	drjoe	shadowniinja work on your bot it isnt good you saw yesterday :D
04:07	ShadowNinja	Hmm?
04:07	RealBadAngel	texturing moon/sun is just a side effect. i just found sky.cpp as easy sandbox to play with creating and displayin meshes ;)
04:07	kahrl_	ShadowNinja: where can I find those messages?
04:07	ShadowNinja	Also, that should be in #minetest
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04:08	ShadowNinja	kahrl_: look at survival/build/etc
04:08	ShadowNinja	Webchat un-quieted I see.
04:09	kahrl_	ah, that's about dependencies
04:10	* ShadowNinja	wonders what drjoe was thinking and comes up with a spammer on another channel he is an op in...
04:10	kahrl_	I don't believe there is any harm in adding dependency tracking to the core
04:26	RealBadAngel	btw, take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9qVPpeKDFw
04:26	RealBadAngel	and this:
04:26	RealBadAngel	http://pin.ic.cz/Water.lua
04:27	VanessaE	why's it named .lua when that's clearly not a Lua file?
04:27	VanessaE	still
04:27	kahrl_	it is lua
04:27	VanessaE	void main() ?
04:28	VanessaE	this isn't Lua as far as I'm aware :-)
04:28	VanessaE	looks like GLSL
04:28	RealBadAngel	it looks like big TRY ME ;)
04:28	kahrl_	it's in a heredoc
04:28	kahrl_	http://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/manual.html#2.1
04:29	kahrl_	long brackets as it's called officially
04:29	VanessaE	ehm.. does lua have keywords like "uniform" and "varying"?
04:29	kahrl_	of course not
04:29	kahrl_	that entire thing is a string as far as lua is concerned
04:30	VanessaE	I'll have to take your word for it :)
04:31	drizz	VanessaE: imagine there being parantheses around the double square brackets before and after the glsl code
04:31	VanessaE	ok I can buy that.
04:31	drizz	Material:SetVertexProgram([[vertex shader]])
04:31	drizz	:p
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05:22	kahrl_	what's the recommended way to loop over a boolean? I'm thinking of bool x=true; do { ...; x = !x; } while (!x);
05:23	kahrl_	but that seems like bad style
05:23	hmmmm	huh
05:23	hmmmm	i don't get it
05:24	kahrl_	I want "for (x in {true,false}) { ... }"
05:24	kahrl_	but obviously it doesn't work that way (well, there's something similar in C++11)
05:24	hmmmm	what on earth
05:25	hmmmm	well
05:25	hmmmm	i guess it's understandable
05:25	kahrl_	should I loop an integer from 1 to 0?
05:26	hmmmm	i suppose... what does the C++ standard say about boolean/int conversion exactly?
05:26	kahrl_	I don't have one, they're expensive :\|
05:26	hmmmm	oh, what, a copy of the C++ standard?
05:26	kahrl_	yeah
05:26	hmmmm	hold on
05:29	hmmmm	http://ompldr.org/vaWFkNw
05:29	kahrl_	thanks!
05:32	hmmmm	anyway, i suppose a for loop from 1 to 0 would work, converting to boolean
05:32	kahrl_	4.12 An rvalue of arithmetic, enumeration, pointer, or pointer to member type can be converted to an rvalue of
05:32	kahrl_	type bool. A zero value, null pointer value, or null member pointer value is converted to false; any
05:32	kahrl_	other value is converted to true.
05:32	kahrl_	woops, stupid newlines
05:32	hmmmm	yeah, i figured as much
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06:09	celeron55	< hmmmmmm> we need to figure some way to change those based on game
06:10	celeron55	i have a branch for this, if i understood it right
06:10	celeron55	https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/commits/menubackground
06:11	celeron55	hmm, actually i think i misunderstood
06:11	hmmmm	no, that's correct
06:11	hmmmm	how long has this code been waiting
06:12	celeron55	it's been hanging there for some weeks i think
06:12	celeron55	a rebase should be easy
06:12	hmmmm	if we were to really change the name of the engine and all that, this feature is quite essential
06:12	celeron55	i think it's the right thing to do in any case
06:15	celeron55	but it didn't really catch at that time so i didn't bother with it further
06:16	hmmmm	by the way what do you think about the renaming issue
06:16	* VanessaE	gets the popcorn
06:16	celeron55	these things tend to be terribly biased towards whoever naysayer happens to be looking at the discussion
06:17	kahrl_	well I'm coding a fancy name conflict resolution scheme so the engine and the game could keep the same name
06:17	celeron55	also, kahrl_: common mods are not dependency-resolved because of i was too lazy to implement that
06:17	kahrl_	ah
06:18	celeron55	hmmmm: i'm don't fully understand what the point is
06:19	celeron55	-'m
06:20	hmmmm	it seems like a lot of people assume that minetest_game is the game and that's it
06:20	celeron55	what has always been in my mind is to keep the engine called "minetest", and rename the main distribution and the main game based on that; but things haven't really gone directly towards such
06:21	celeron55	i'm mostly hoping someone has a clearer idea of what the aim is here
06:21	hmmmm	ultimately what i'd like to happen is for minetest to be a game that people install into the core
06:21	kahrl_	you could argue that the main games are called survival and build
06:21	hmmmm	like
06:22	hmmmm	"oh, in order to play minetest, you need to get the voxel blah blah engine"
06:22	hmmmm	hrm
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06:22	hmmmm	no
06:23	hmmmm	we just need to make it clear somehow that minetest is just one game that can be played among many others
06:23	hmmmm	to help that, we distribute it with more, different games
06:23	hmmmm	....or with no games, aside from minimal
06:23	kahrl_	I think one issue is that not everyone likes *test, it makes it sound like a tech demo to them
06:24	hmmmm	that is one issue, but that's not the primary issue
06:25	hmmmm	i guess it doesn't really matter how it's done; if we can get the users to comprehend that if they don't like minetest_game, they can just play a different game, and having some detail they don't like in that game doesn't mean the entire minetest is crap
06:25	celeron55	i think as an engine we'd be better off as more like a library
06:25	celeron55	think of eg. https://love2d.org/
06:25	hmmmm	but what's the host executable then
06:26	kahrl_	the people who complained know that you can make your own game, I'm sure
06:26	kahrl_	it's not a matter of education
06:26	celeron55	it would work more like a script interpreter
06:26	hmmmm	i don't get it
06:26	hmmmm	what is with those people
06:26	hmmmm	what do they want
06:26	kahrl_	I don't know
06:26	hmmmm	am i doing something wrong!?
06:27	VanessaE	no
06:27	celeron55	well, the problem really is that this project has changed a lot
06:27	hmmmm	if they don't like the game, and they know that they can make a new game, i don't understand why they choose to complain about things and cause drama rather than just fix what they wanted to fix
06:28	kahrl_	because complaining is easier?
06:28	hmmmm	could this be caused by the mistake that minetest is a community project?
06:29	celeron55	i don't think so
06:29	VanessaE	actually,
06:29	VanessaE	I've seen people making precisely that argument.
06:29	hmmmm	can it be resolved if we define a larger separation between us and them?
06:29	hmmmm	we give them something and they better like it, if they don't, then too bad
06:29	hmmmm	look at minecraft and all other games for that matter
06:30	VanessaE	heh
06:30	hmmmm	they're happy because they have no choice
06:30	hmmmm	this is completely analogous to the iphone "apps"
06:30	hmmmm	and i don't want to do this because minetest is free and libre and all that stuff
06:31	celeron55	i think there are many complicately interrelated reasons 8)
06:31	celeron55	that's one of them
06:31	VanessaE	I expect that distancing oneself from the community one develops for could only lead to even more hate from that community
06:31	celeron55	the other one is that people are just getting bored of the genre, and admittably minetest doesn't bring much new to the table for players
06:31	kahrl_	VanessaE: yeah, if that happens, I can see the shitstorm already
06:31	hmmmm	i would expect that as well, but as we've seen that may not be the case
06:32	celeron55	some of them want the crummy minetest-c55 made hackily by me with odd surprises and insane things back
06:32	hmmmm	if only we were able to test the reactions
06:32	VanessaE	hmmmm: I think we just did, that's the thing.
06:32	VanessaE	the question isn't, "what was the reaction?". The question should probably be "what is to be done about that reaction?".
06:33	VanessaE	(and I have no answer, unfortunately)
06:33	hmmmm	that's assuming we can't change what we're doing though
06:33	VanessaE	true
06:33	hmmmm	well the reaction to the reaction is to choose something different
06:33	VanessaE	well sure - but what?
06:34	hmmmm	this is so stupid
06:34	celeron55	you could continue under a different name, state your current goals clearly and build a new community
06:34	celeron55	8)
06:34	VanessaE	I mean, the engine's going in a really good direction now, it's the game content that needs the attention
06:34	hmmmm	i just want to write some code
06:34	celeron55	that way you'll have people who agree to the goals
06:34	hmmmm	and not have people telling me "fuck you"
06:34	hmmmm	and all this nonsense
06:34	celeron55	hmmmm: this kind of stuff is the reason why comanies have so many people working in addition to coders
06:35	hmmmm	like what the hell did i do to jordan4ibanez
06:35	celeron55	there's so much planning and marketing and shit going on behind your back when you work as a programmer in some firm
06:35	celeron55	+p
06:35	hmmmm	i guess
06:36	hmmmm	supposedly in a lot of games, you have 2 or 3 elite developers who do the majority of the work
06:36	hmmmm	and then there are a crapload of all other kinds of people
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06:36	BlockMen	The best reaction is to make clear, that the development of the engine is not community driven. Ofc everyone is free to make suggestions, but that doesnt meant that they are merged, even if the community supports it.
06:37	BlockMen	and the new community builds itself (by quitting of those who dont agree) :P
06:37	VanessaE	well that raises one question: why can't it be "community driven"?
06:37	VanessaE	I don't mean we all go code every last thing the community wants, we'll just end up with another Edsel.
06:37	hmmmm	because the majority of the community is completely incompetent
06:37	hmmmm	sorry i said it
06:37	celeron55	also the community has too many opinions
06:38	VanessaE	arguably true, if harshly-worded.
06:38	celeron55	we're ending up constantly making shitty ball-less compromises
06:38	hmmmm	ugh i should get going to sleep
06:38	* hmmmm	&
06:38	BlockMen	any project needs something like a "leadership", sounds stupid, but thats fact
06:39	celeron55	you know, i actually wanted to see and teach everyone what happens if i don't do the dictator role like i did 8)
06:39	VanessaE	looks at clock PilzAdam should be showing up any moment now.
06:39	celeron55	i didn't know for sure myself either; this all is quite interesting
06:39	VanessaE	celeron55: but, you yourself said that you'd rather code than lead.
06:40	VanessaE	kind of a catch-22 there.
06:40	celeron55	i don't think i really understood this at that time
06:41	VanessaE	perhaps not, but you have to admit, you were really close to burnout.
06:41	celeron55	or maybe you don't get the point in it
06:41	celeron55	it means that i would rather code myself and do the decisions myself rather than try to judge and juggle with all kinds of pull requests
06:42	VanessaE	hrm, well that's a little different than the argument you made at the time :-)
06:44	VanessaE	either wya you have to admit that the engine has grown and improved in ways that are simply way beyond what you could have done by yourself in the same amount of time.
06:45	VanessaE	way*
06:45	celeron55	it has also gone pretty much directly towards what i wanted to strongly avoid in the first year of the project
06:46	VanessaE	mmh
06:46	celeron55	i mean, it's a completely different thing now, i'm kind of sorry it still has the same name because it confuses people
06:46	celeron55	that's why i'm open to name discussions
06:46	VanessaE	that's the argument I was making before :-)
06:48	BlockMen	im against the change of the name
06:48	BlockMen	and that it is complete different is not an argument. windows is also not windows anymore, but has still that name
06:48	BlockMen	for example
06:49	VanessaE	BlockMen: the problem is that even the knowledgeable folks can't always cleanly separate minetest-the-engine from minetest-the-game in their minds,
06:49	VanessaE	and if they can't, the rest of the community you never actually hear from probably can't at all.
06:50	BlockMen	VanessaE, but changing the name of engine wont change that
06:50	celeron55	it really can't be separated currently; they're so strongly related
06:50	BlockMen	because the engine will always come with a default game
06:50	VanessaE	there's an axiom in marketing and other population-oriented ideas: for every 1 person you hear from, there are 10 (or 100) who share the same opinion, that you don't hear from.
06:51	VanessaE	BlockMen: the engine doesn't come with a default game, unless you call "minimal" a game.
06:51	VanessaE	at least, not in the git repositories.
06:51	VanessaE	celeron55: yes I know, but I mean at the packaging level, not at the code level.
06:52	BlockMen	VanessaE, not in git, true, but the majority dont use git
06:52	BlockMen	so in fact the engine comes with minetest_game, build and survival
06:52	VanessaE	we already have a clear and complete separation between the two now, in the upstream repos, it just isn't the case with the 'official' distro packages and builds.
06:53	VanessaE	so what's stopping an appropriate party from packaging them separately from now on?
06:53	celeron55	i think clearly separating them will not work until the games really start on their own, just using the engine, rather than you start the engine and then work with the game inside it
06:53	VanessaE	hm, maybe
06:54	celeron55	we need to design an easy way for them to do that
06:54	BlockMen	i think for the current state that -> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/am6ulwbsa5vgzaj/start_new_game.png will solve it
06:54	kahrl_	shortcut to minetest.exe --gameid whatever
06:54	VanessaE	well if you were to split off the in-game menu into some sort of external client and ship that with the games...
06:54	celeron55	BlockMen: no
06:54	celeron55	BlockMen: that's exactly what's wrong
06:54	celeron55	the selection should happen at the OS level, not inside minetest
06:54	VanessaE	(of course I don't mean the current client/server scenario)
06:55	BlockMen	celeron55, that for not seperating complete
06:55	celeron55	kahrl_: that plus theming of the menu according to game will be a good step towards it
06:56	kahrl_	of course for multiplayer it all doesn't matter, as the game is specified by the server
06:56	celeron55	but i don't know if it's a wise direction
06:56	celeron55	the separation of them
06:57	VanessaE	whatever happens in this regard, remember that a complete idiot has to be able to play it with minimal effort :)
06:57	celeron55	i think it would have catched on better as-is if it would practically have the potential that would be worth it
06:57	BlockMen	VanessaE, thats an arguement against spillting it
06:57	VanessaE	yes I know
06:57	celeron55	no it isn't
06:58	celeron55	necessarily it isn't
06:58	VanessaE	of course any decent distro has good dependency management
06:58	BlockMen	celeron55, why you think its not?
06:58	VanessaE	so it's not like you can't just depend on "foo-engine" when you download "minetest-game"
06:58	celeron55	it will not be more complicated if minetest is made to be used more like a library, with games handling branding, packaging, shortcuts and whatever
06:59	VanessaE	but installing "foo-engine" doesn't have to necessarily drag in "minetest-survival" with it, etc.
06:59	celeron55	it's the requirement for it not being convoluted to the user
06:59	BlockMen	but seriously, why the engine then. if i want a complete different game i form minetest
06:59	BlockMen	*fork
06:59	VanessaE	Windows would be a problem though, dependency hell is still a problem there isn't it?
07:00	kahrl_	VanessaE: Windows would still get a combined package or installer as it does now
07:00	kahrl_	just with the engine being less prominent, I guess
07:00	VanessaE	mmm, okay I guess
07:01	celeron55	i think we have exactly two options: either work on the engine as a separate project and hide it behind the game so that it isn't visible, OR re-combine the game and the engine
07:01	celeron55	everything else is just confusing and misses the point of being a game
07:01	VanessaE	celeron55: if you re-combine, you're gonna have to add some in-menu options for the build vs. survival vs. "classic" folks.
07:02	celeron55	VanessaE: not necessarily at all
07:02	celeron55	but maybe
07:03	VanessaE	well, to use an example you and I can relate to... suppose you were to recombine the engine with minetest_game, but with elements from "survival" added to it. How would that affect, let's say, my server, which uses a custom game?
07:03	VanessaE	just keep the same mechanism we have now?
07:03	celeron55	well you'd just throw mods at it
07:03	VanessaE	or delete mods, as desired
07:04	celeron55	i think the first option is more desirable because it's something new
07:04	celeron55	it may fail spectacularly but then we've learned something even more 8)
07:04	VanessaE	that could work, as long as it doesn't change the basic premise of being able to run your own "game" that doesn't necessarily bear any resemblance to minetest_game
07:05	VanessaE	heh, true
07:05	VanessaE	I think if we (well, you guys anyway) can swing that, it would be the best balance short of the separate engine-as-a-dependency idea.
07:06	kahrl_	how would it work for folks like me? when I play the game (and don't just test something), I generally pick a random server and explore
07:06	kahrl_	I don't want to download whatever game the server has before I connect
07:06	VanessaE	kahrl_: I would expect you'd see no real difference from before
07:06	VanessaE	since the server still runs the game code
07:07	celeron55	well, i don't think we'll remove the server-based content
07:07	celeron55	part of the vision of 0.4 is to be able to just go on some server that works completely differently than anything that one has seen before
07:08	VanessaE	celeron55: well that still holds, actually.
07:08	VanessaE	you go on my server, it's an entirely different experience than on redcrab's, for example
07:08	VanessaE	so your plan is working out, to a degree
07:08	VanessaE	s/plan/vision/
07:09	VanessaE	that said, there's been a lot of call for client-side modding. How the hell that would work, I have no idea.
07:09	celeron55	but really the current games-hosted-in-the-engine isn't working like it could have
07:10	celeron55	VanessaE: well, the server would send scripts to be run on the client in a strict sandbox environment; it's trivial actually
07:10	VanessaE	celeron55: ok that could work. I hadn't considered it from that angle.
07:10	celeron55	it's just that if it's actually worth the maintenance effort
07:11	celeron55	it will create even more work in addition to this existing server defined content thing which is quite laborous to develop
07:11	VanessaE	some would say it absolutely is - anyone who has ever gotten stung by heavy server lag while trying to use their inventory, for example :-)
07:11	VanessaE	but it's too much work to consider right nw
07:11	VanessaE	now*
07:11	celeron55	(i have alwyas wondered if this actually gives an amount of benefit that is even close to the amount of work required)
07:13	kahrl_	it's also easy to make design decisions in this that will restrict you later
07:13	kahrl_	say you say you can only have one game, what if you want to add a separate "tutorial" game mode in the default distribution?
07:15	BlockMen	I still dont get the point of making an game, that runs the engine in background that user dont notice its minetest. why has that to be done that way and not by forking?
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07:17	kahrl_	it would increase the immersion (is that the right word?) and make it more of a game
07:18	BlockMen	kahrl_, the tutorial game mode is a nice idea. and all other games could be get over games.minetest.net
07:20	VanessaE	celeron55: getting back to my "deleting" comment for one moment - what I meant by that is in the case of disabling certain components of the default game either for performance reasons, or just because I don't like 'em :-)
07:24	BlockMen	for leaving i would like to qoute "Josh" from the forum: "that's the beauty of minetest, if you don't like something you can remove it."
07:24	BlockMen	bye
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07:41	celeron55	in any case i kind of feel like everyone is waiting for something to happen and that i will probably need to make it happen
07:42	VanessaE	not necessarily.
07:42	VanessaE	this is a discussion that needs to involve more than just the few of us who were here tonight
07:42	celeron55	*this morning
07:43	VanessaE	this morning than :-)
07:43	celeron55	this is one of the reasons we'd also need a mailing list
07:43	VanessaE	eh, I'm kinda on the fence about that
07:43	celeron55	it would be way more encouraging for people who actually want to think and reason things rather than just shout every hour on irc
07:43	kahrl_	meh, there's already a forum, that would just cause more fragmentation
07:44	VanessaE	I was just about to say the same thing, kahrl_
07:44	VanessaE	create a section on the forum for "Official development discussion", closed to new threads except by approved members, etc.
07:44	celeron55	maybe we should have a section on the forum where not everyone can post
07:44	VanessaE	the community can watch, and if they wanna participate, that's what IRC is for.
07:45	VanessaE	or the various public sections of the forum
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07:48	kahrl_	I don't think this is feasible, but if someone reads a topic in the official dev forum, there could be a button that leads to the corresponding topic in the unofficial forum, or creates one if it doesn't exist
07:49	kahrl_	that way it wouldn't feel as closed off
07:50	VanessaE	that's an idea.
07:50	kahrl_	I doubt the forum software has such a feature
07:52	kahrl_	alternatively, if the moderators feel inclined, they could watch both forums and add links to the official forum threads
07:53	kahrl_	but that seems like a lot of work for not much benefit
07:53	kahrl_	*between the official and unofficial
07:54	jin_xi	you guys don't like mailing lists?
07:54	VanessaE	mailing lists are too slow and too isolated.
07:54	kahrl_	and there's already at least 3 other ways of communication
07:55	jin_xi	well, i think that ml has the advantage that it sorts users out and is good for long, uninterrupted discussions.
07:55	celeron55	jin_xi: well, as we don't have mailing list, we have people who don't like mailing lists; if minetest was developed on a mailing list, we'd have people who dislike forums 8)
07:56	celeron55	everything is a consequence!
07:56	jin_xi	well, not everyone is on the forum / irc respectively and the dev wiki proposal system is not used too
07:56	kahrl_	I personally prefer newsgroups over mailing lists
07:56	kahrl_	they're easier to work with
07:57	jin_xi	i just think irc & logs is bad for long discussions and prone to misunderstandings
07:57	VanessaE	jin_xi: even fewer use mailing lists
07:57	VanessaE	didn't you know, email is dead!?
07:57	VanessaE	:)
07:57	jin_xi	VanessaE: thats the point, sort them out
07:57	jin_xi	no need for people who have no clue to weigh in on every topic
07:58	VanessaE	jin_xi: I'm against that idea because sometimes, those who don't "have a clue" may still have a useful opinion
08:00	jin_xi	well, that is a tough one...
08:02	celeron55	i think stuff would sort out iself pretty well if there just was a written-down plan of where upstream is going
08:05	VanessaE	bbl
08:05	VanessaE	celeron55: maybe so.
08:05	celeron55	how can you argue against that?
08:05	jin_xi	i think one point is that mt so far has kinda failed in producing the games it needs. mito551 does one and im sure there are others, but theryre like isolated one-person efforts. i think it would be cool to make periodic mini games on the engine that use (and maybe push) new features of the engine, similar to what blender org does with movies, but in a much smaller scope...
08:05	celeron55	jin_xi: well, in that spirit i made the dungeon game
08:07	celeron55	but there could be more
08:07	jin_xi	well, would be cool to make that so it involves more people, like set a topic and a deadline, make a call for mods and textures and such
08:07	celeron55	what seems to hinder people is that they constantly aim too high
08:08	kahrl_	jin_xi: you mean similar to ludum dare and the like?
08:08	celeron55	dwarves is good; it's a pity the developer doesn't use IRC
08:08	jin_xi	yes, but i think the periodic nature of such a thing could help remedy that. because then decisions need not be "forever" and there is gonna be another try
08:09	jin_xi	kahrl_: yes, but much smaller in scope
08:09	celeron55	ludum dare's scope is one weekend
08:09	celeron55	...how much smaller can it be
08:09	jin_xi	oh i dont mean time wise
08:10	kahrl_	I like that idea (I also like the mesecons competitions, even though I won't participate)
08:10	jin_xi	and not so famous as ld of course
08:10	celeron55	usually nothing else matters than time
08:10	iqualfragile	be carefull about periodic things
08:10	jin_xi	good points
08:11	iqualfragile	do not do them too often, there should at least be ~4 weeks between them
08:11	kahrl_	even that seems too often
08:11	iqualfragile	otherwise it might happen that nobody is motivated anymore and thats deadly
08:11	kahrl_	4 times a year the most
08:12	jin_xi	^ yes, and i think topics should revolve around newish engine features...
08:12	kahrl_	One thing I'm worried about - will this lead to more abandoned mods?
08:13	celeron55	okay so i propose this plan: let's add themeing ability to the menu based on game (my patch pretty much directly applied), make and publish a plan for including some independently developed games in the core (choosing them is going to be hard...) and make those... umm... i'd not call them competitions, more like "minetest game jams"
08:13	celeron55	(not sure if this is a good idea at all)
08:13	jin_xi	no need to rush it...
08:13	celeron55	ehm... "in the core" = "in the main distribution"
08:13	iqualfragile	we could use a smarter distribution system
08:14	celeron55	i wrote that just so that people have something to talk abut 8)
08:14	iqualfragile	especialy if gamemodes are just aggregates of mods i would have an idea
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08:15	celeron55	we have a track record of being slow at doing things, so rush is not something that should be feared :-D
08:16	celeron55	kahrl_: well, a fact is, if you want to differentiate games, they are going to be incompatible with each other
08:16	celeron55	otherwise they are not different
08:20	celeron55	this is exactly what i mean with that we either need to have a strong one game, or we need to separate them further
08:21	celeron55	there's no middle ground that would keep people happy
08:24	jin_xi	the current build/survival situation is not optimal imo. i think they should be variants of the same game, and therefore include the same mods and stuff, differing in damage and resource management mostly (and mobs eventually), but not so much content.
08:24	jin_xi	idk, but there have been discussions if wool and screwdrivers should be in survival or not..
08:24	jin_xi	so id say dont do artificial micro differing
08:25	celeron55	well then there is really no point in having them as different game; it's the same game with different settings
08:26	jin_xi	yes, but that does not mean that there is no point in having different games at all, just make them really different.
08:26	jin_xi	like one more simple (mc like) and one more realistic (in the dwarfes and dwarf fortress sense)
08:26	celeron55	i'm open to consider build and survival as failed experiments and ditch them
08:26	celeron55	considering*
08:27	kahrl_	it's a somewhat pointless argument but for me wool is deeply associated with the survival game mode
08:27	kahrl_	as I've played super hostile minecraft maps where the point is to collect wool
08:28	kahrl_	so I could say these games do not "cater to me"
08:30	celeron55	is anyone against abandoning build and survival and just throwing all of what they contain into minetest_game?
08:30	celeron55	i think PilzAdam is
08:30	kahrl_	pretty sure he is, yes
08:31	celeron55	otoh, dunno; but it does not seem to be working out at all
08:31	celeron55	if we ditched those and added dvarves in the distribution, that could be interesting
08:31	jin_xi	"the floor is lava" could be a cool game mode, you start with some resources (trampolines and rope) in a world with mostly lava and some flying islands, the game only starts when 5 or more players are ready, goal is to be last one surviving... should be doable now that mapgen is pluggable, right?
08:34	kahrl_	yes, I'd love to see a variety of games like that
08:36	celeron55	i'll propose an another combined plan that could work: 1) ditch build and survival and include all that is in them into minetest_game, 2) select a couple of more games that are actually different to be included in the package (umm... well, dvarves, maybe my dungeon thing, make more small distinct ones), 3) start some more wild game projects to be slowly progressed and meant to drag the engine to support a wider variety of things
08:37	celeron55	eg. a game in space with varying gravity; even if it doesn't work well at all until a long time
08:38	celeron55	a game with... vehicles? dunno; we probably need to choose now what things will be supported and what will not be
08:38	kahrl_	these sound like things that would benefit greatly from voxel area entities
08:39	kahrl_	these two games, I mean
08:39	kahrl_	someone code it already :P
08:39	celeron55	this will be quite hard for modders to swallow, but we must accept that they will be sad of all the incompatibility between games
08:40	celeron55	also some people will not understand this at all, because their imagination is limited
08:40	celeron55	they don't see at all what things could be done
08:40	celeron55	and they will complain of new games being made rather than things being included minetest_game
08:42	celeron55	but really, this is the spirit of minetest 0.4
08:42	celeron55	not what we have now
08:43	celeron55	i'm considering making that happen without caring at all what anyone thinks
08:44	kahrl_	go for it. =)
08:44	celeron55	are you in? 8)
08:44	kahrl_	of course
08:44	celeron55	that's 199% enough then
08:46	celeron55	>naysayers gonna naysay
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08:46	celeron55	i'll get started on this this evening, naysay is considered offtopic from now on
08:46	celeron55	8D
08:47	kahrl_	heh I guess cvx wanted to naysay? :P
08:50	Exio	i wonder, would anyone upstream a 3 lines changes? https://github.com/Jeija/minetest/commit/14a38b16c6d37a11a5cc00e9ac5c691f5b757301#L2R884
08:51	kahrl_	you mean the game.cpp part?
08:51	Exio	yep :P
08:51	Exio	the time variable for shaders
08:51	RealBadAngel	hi all
08:51	kahrl_	looks good, but I'm not a core dev
08:52	Exio	hi RBA
08:52	RealBadAngel	celeron55, make shooter as another game, weapons mod is already out there
08:53	Exio	RealBadAngel: implement a proper client-side prediction for that stuff
08:53	kahrl_	Exio: agreed, FPSes suck without tons of prediction
08:54	RealBadAngel	i just pointed one possible idea, it doesnt mean i like it and wanna code it ;)
08:57	kahrl_	aaanyway I'm about done with the optdepends stuff
08:57	kahrl_	now one unintended consequence of the algorithm changes is that addon mods without dependencies are loaded before common or game mods
08:58	kahrl_	which seems equally correct as the current behaviour but is there any problem with that?
08:58	Exio	i don't think that "can be" wrong
08:59	Exio	RealBadAngel: in http://pin.ic.cz/Water.lua - what is WaterReflection? (i mean - where is it defined?)
09:00	RealBadAngel	if something depends on nothin, shouldnt matter when it is executed
09:01	RealBadAngel	uniform sampler2D WaterReflection;
09:01	RealBadAngel	looks like a variable
09:01	Exio	uniform <stuff>; = variable "defined" in the program
09:02	kahrl_	a texture is this case
09:02	kahrl_	in*
09:02	Exio	yep
09:02	Exio	but i mean, having all the shaders work out-of-the-box everywhere would be pretty nice, no? :P
09:02	RealBadAngel	http://www.opengl.org/wiki/Sampler_%28GLSL%29
09:05	kahrl_	if they have a lightmap it suggests to me that it is prerendered
09:05	kahrl_	could be wrong
09:06	Exio	is there any other way for having reflection more than pre-rendering the "blocks"?
09:08	kahrl_	rendering a cube map every few seconds, or screen space reflection shaders
09:08	kahrl_	I'm sure there are others
09:08	kahrl_	s/seconds/frames
09:11	kahrl_	I knew a few quake maps that implemented reflection by essentially duplicating the map and flipping it at the Z axis
09:11	kahrl_	in the BSP geometry itself, I think that counts as prerendering :)
09:18	Exio	in those cases it is "easier"
09:18	Exio	the map is already know when you need to see the reflections
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09:38	kahrl_	is anyone interested in testing my optional dependencies branch?
09:38	kahrl_	I pushed it here: https://github.com/kahrl/minetest/commits/opt_depends
09:39	kahrl_	it also implements the new mod name conflict resolution described here: http://dev.minetest.net/Mod_name_conflicts
09:40	kahrl_	but more importantly, to mark a line of depends.txt as optional append a question mark
09:40	kahrl_	or put the line in optdepends.txt
09:45	RealBadAngel	Exio, i got those shaders compiling in game, but they seem to do nothin ;)
09:45	Exio	RealBadAngel: what shaders?
09:45	Exio	(the result you got)
09:45	RealBadAngel	from this example
09:46	Exio	can you post your vertex and fragment shaders?
09:46	RealBadAngel	theyre loading without errors, but they seem to have no effect :)
09:46	Exio	exactly
09:46	Exio	what did you change?
09:46	kahrl_	how did you create and pass the samplers?
09:46	Exio	(test_shader_1, 2 or 3?)
09:46	RealBadAngel	i splitted the file into vertex and pixel files
09:46	RealBadAngel	pixel == fragment shader
09:47	RealBadAngel	but dont know where part with global variables should go
09:47	Exio	getting any shader 'compiling' is pretty easy, making it doing what it should do is the hard part
09:48	RealBadAngel	with texture the shader should work on
09:48	Exio	myTexture is the texture used for the blocks and stuff in default shaders
09:48	Exio	s/texture/variable/
09:55	RealBadAngel	Material:LoadTextureSlot(2, "Graphics/Texture/Terrain/water_normalmap.jpg")
09:55	RealBadAngel	this is the problem i think
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10:08	kahrl_	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/697
10:09	Calinou	+1
10:10	Calinou	does a warning message appear when starting a mod without one of its optional deps?
10:10	Calinou	(in console)
10:10	kahrl_	no
10:11	kahrl_	would that be desired?
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10:29	Calinou	maybe?
10:29	Calinou	so that people know if they're missing mods, to make a mod run in an optimal way
10:30	celeron55	i don't think spitting warnings to the user is a good idea
10:31	kahrl_	if the mod wants to do it it can
10:31	celeron55	very true
10:35	thexyz	ShadowNinja: why do you need it?
10:35	thexyz	and I have no idea who have enabled private either
10:36	Exio	thexyz: knowing the OPs in case of spam or whatever, for not random highlighting half of the core devs what don't have access
10:38	celeron55	kahrl_: documentation is needed: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L119
10:39	kahrl_	right
10:39	thexyz	Exio: okay, removed that flag
10:39	thexyz	I hope celeron55 has nothing against it
10:39	kahrl_	should I document only the depends.txt way or both?
10:40	Exio	i'd say both
10:41	kahrl_	then we should discuss if and when to remove optdepends.txt support
10:41	celeron55	thexyz: i don't care at all; i'm not interested in figuring out all this freenode stuff
10:41	Exio	thexyz: any reason of why dev(s) don't have +o?
10:41	celeron55	kahrl_: in half a year, i say
10:42	kahrl_	sounds good, should that also be in lua_api.txt?
10:42	celeron55	(roughly based on the age of very slowly updated stable servers)
10:42	celeron55	yes
10:43	celeron55	kahrl_: by the way, does the implementation ignore unknown non-modname characters after modnames?
10:43	thexyz	Exio: no, I also can't give any reason for them to have it
10:43	celeron55	that must be done so that more things can be added there if needed, without optdepends.txt-kind of hacks
10:44	celeron55	Exio: coders aren't interested in moderating discussions
10:44	celeron55	good moderators tend to be a different group of people
10:45	Exio	celeron55: actually, only you and thexyz have +o, i'd add +o here to the ops in #minetest, at least
10:46	celeron55	Exio: there's so much less activity in here that it's not really needed; all we'd need is a bot who'd auto-ban flooders
10:46	Exio	that is true
10:48	kahrl_	celeron55: I agree that should be done, but it isn't yet
10:49	kahrl_	what are allowed modname characters?
10:49	Exio	<<"Only chararacters [a-z0-9_] are allowed."<<std::endl;
10:50	Exio	scriptapi.cpp:83
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10:57	darkrose	re: optional dependancies: if there's already a json parser available, why not just make depends.txt into depends.json and have seperate 'required' and 'optional' sections?
11:09	celeron55	kahrl_: there's a function somewhere there for checking it, but [a-z0-9_]
11:10	kahrl_	celeron55: I named it MODNAME_ALLOWED_CHARS
11:11	kahrl_	don't want to duplicate it
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11:22	kahrl_	updated: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/697
11:29	celeron55	i don't see why the ignoring should be limited to only one character 8)
11:30	kahrl_	well I have a reason
11:30	kahrl_	it is that I have to go to bed :P
11:30	Exio	good night kahrl_? :P
11:31	kahrl_	good night
11:31	PilzAdam	if you are in germany then you have some really strange sleeping times
11:31	celeron55	kahrl_: that's a good reason 8-)
11:32	kahrl_	PilzAdam: yeah.
12:13	celeron55	PilzAdam: you haven't commented at all on abandoning build and survival; will you?
12:14	PilzAdam	hm?
12:14	celeron55	oh also, i need to write this down somewhere: i need to implement per-world settings because nobody seems to
12:14	PilzAdam	let me read the logs.
12:15	celeron55	(also that includes designing how the hell it would even work usefully)
12:16	Calinou	per-world settings make "survival" and "build" games obsolete
12:16	Calinou	so, +1
12:21	VanessaE	[05-02 04:30] <celeron55> is anyone against abandoning build and survival and just throwing all of what they contain into minetest_game? <-- seems fine to me.
12:24	VanessaE	[05-02 04:05] <celeron55> how can you argue against that? <-- Remember, some MT users are Americans, some of whom love to argue against pretty much any trivial bullshit. :-)
12:24	celeron55	anyway, before the end of this year i want to be able to say "cloning minecraft is just one thing we do"
12:25	Calinou	the game content is in common, not minetest_game
12:25	Calinou	minetest_game is only for legacy purposes right now :P
12:25	PilzAdam	celeron55, I always thought that the survival game would be better if we dont have that much useless stuff
12:25	PilzAdam	but it seems like people dont like this kind of survival game
12:25	celeron55	PilzAdam: i know what you think; we'll get to it again when it seems more suitable
12:26	Calinou	the default stuff isn't useless, it's nice currently, not too big or not too small
12:26	PilzAdam	so, we do it like Minecraft and just throw everything into one game
12:26	Calinou	not everyone wants to install mods to have a playable game
12:26	Calinou	^ do that
12:27	PilzAdam	this will lead to discussions like "I want my renewable lava back"
12:27	VanessaE	one game is easier on the users, but is it flexible enough?
12:28	VanessaE	(I expect so, but the question must be asked)
12:28	celeron55	PilzAdam: that is why i want to implement per-world settings
12:28	PilzAdam	I generally dont like settings to change content of games
12:28	celeron55	i don't either, but it's the least bad alternative here
12:30	PilzAdam	we could also just say, that minetest_game is mainly survival but also contains lots of build stuff
12:30	PilzAdam	everyone who doesnt like this can install a game found in the forums
12:31	PilzAdam	and if it isnt possible to have the survival and build way of doing a feature, we just pick the survival variant
12:31	celeron55	i'm not sure about that
12:32	PilzAdam	its just not possible to design a game that everyone likes
12:32	celeron55	if you want to make pure survival, i think you should make a game from the ground up for survival purposes and make it clear it is not intended to be used with minetest_game stuff
12:32	celeron55	it has to be from day 1 different enough from minetest_game that people will not associate them with each other
12:33	PilzAdam	I want to pick the survival parts only when they conflict with the build game
12:33	PilzAdam	everything else will be thrown in
12:33	celeron55	is there an example?
12:33	PilzAdam	so we pick not renewable lava
12:34	celeron55	that'll be covered by world settings
12:34	celeron55	next? 8)
12:34	PilzAdam	world settings are just an attempt to make a game that everyone likes
12:34	PilzAdam	and thats simply not possible
12:34	PilzAdam	why would we support different games if we have one game that 100% configureable?
12:35	celeron55	now you're lacking imagination
12:36	celeron55	but hmm
12:36	VanessaE	imagination: creating a mod/game mode that emulates classic DOOM. kaeza is working on that, to some degree.
12:37	Exio	quake3 with 300ms of latency*
12:37	jin_xi	problems with that mentioned above, and that would be a game involving many mods i guess
12:37	PilzAdam	I think mods can take the part of world settings
12:38	PilzAdam	so, there could be a small mod that makes lava renewable
12:38	PilzAdam	we could open a section "minetest_game mods" that are only there to change the behaviour of minetest_game
12:38	Exio	or "Game tweaks" for making it more general?
12:39	PilzAdam	so, instead of settings the users can just install mods to change the games
12:39	PilzAdam	Exio, yea
12:39	celeron55	i'm really torn between two ways of thinking here
12:39	celeron55	i mean, a mod is kind of complicated considering it could be just a checkbox
12:39	Exio	i'd like settings
12:39	celeron55	no? 8)
12:39	Exio	as most of settings are just 2 or 3 lines in code
12:39	VanessaE	on the other hand a checkbox means integrating stuff into the default game/engine/whatever that wouldn't otherwise need to be there.
12:39	PilzAdam	celeron55, we have checkboxes to set mods per world
12:40	kaeza	PilzAdam, making a mod to change a simple setting in another seems a bit hacky
12:41	PilzAdam	there will be 2 kinds of mods: 1) what we currently have: mods that add new things 2) little mods that tweak the main game
12:41	PilzAdam	mods are able to do both
12:42	PilzAdam	its also the least work intensive way, since everything that is needed is already implemented
12:42	celeron55	okay so... instead of having a "build" game, we might possibly have an almost semi-official mod that tweaks it to be a bit more suitable for building
12:43	PilzAdam	also all the people that see the main game as a platform to run mods are happy this way too
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12:44	VanessaE	PilzAdam: to be fair, until "build" and "survival" came about, that's exactly what the default game served as, if you didn't play it vanilla.
12:44	Calinou	VanessaE: wouldn't work, you'll have too much temptation to create room-over-room levels :P
12:44	VanessaE	and that's what, a year?
12:44	celeron55	i think PilzAdam has a solid grasp on this 8)
12:45	celeron55	(as for minetest_game)
12:45	VanessaE	Calinou: well I said he's working on it, I'll let him decide if it's viable in the long term :)
12:45	Calinou	we could have a "game settings" menu for each world, "renewable lava", "finite liquid", "falling nodes", "decaying leaves"...
12:46	celeron55	Calinou: that's a good example of how it'll go totally overboard
12:46	celeron55	but you make a good point in "finite liquid" - it's an engine feature that people will want to set per world
12:47	celeron55	hmm, this is ugly
12:48	celeron55	why is there even such a thing in it
12:50	PilzAdam	the finite liquids arent good; they are slow, lag the server and you always lose water if you transport it from one pool to another</offtopic>
12:50	celeron55	there is no good way to handle it
12:50	kaeza	what do you think about a separate "Advanced" dialog in world config where mods can be configured? mods could provide a file describing which options can be configured, which type, etc, much like CMake settings
12:50	PilzAdam	maybe set that in mods too :-)
12:51	celeron55	PilzAdam: i can't think of any good logic for that
12:51	celeron55	i guess just something like minetest.setting_set_temporary()
12:51	PilzAdam	you could simply have a finite_liquid mod, that contains one line to enable it and use this mod with the current per world setting
12:52	celeron55	yes, but i'm wondering what the line should actually do
12:52	iqualfragile	i think finite liquids could in fact be â€¦ better â€¦ then they are now
12:52	PilzAdam	it could work like the current minetest.conf in games
12:53	celeron55	iqualfragile: the fact is they are not better than now and we need to deal with it
12:53	celeron55	PilzAdam: hmm, then it'd be minetest.setting_set_default()
12:53	PilzAdam	iqualfragile, RBA almost crucified me when I listed all the bad points in the finite liquids pull request
12:53	celeron55	it's reasonablish
12:54	PilzAdam	iqualfragile, he said I was a mojang spy that wants to ruin Minetest because I block all new features
12:54	iqualfragile	i think that the problem with finite liquids in minetest is that voxels are not weighted in this engine
12:56	celeron55	that doesn't even make any sense
12:56	iqualfragile	where does it not make sense?
12:57	celeron55	what are "weighted voxels"? well, don't answer, that's offtopic in this discussion
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13:24	sfan5	any comments to #697?
13:30	kaeza	sfan5, I don't see anyone on that channel
13:30	kaeza	</troll>
13:52	PilzAdam	celeron55, do we actually need common mods anymore when we drop build and survival?
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13:52	PilzAdam	minetest_game like games can be redone as mods then; and games that are very different dont include common mods at all
13:53	PilzAdam	s/mods/modpacks/
14:00	Exio	what about making it "general" then?
14:00	Exio	like that pull request for anything_mods=
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14:13	celeron55	PilzAdam: well, considering common was added exactly because of the split, i guess no
14:20	celeron55	i think for the sake of not-having-so-many-goddamn-repos we'll not use common mods? i think there really is no benefit from it with the new plan
14:20	celeron55	or, well
14:21	celeron55	actually more like the old plan; this is all basically going back to the roots of 0.4
14:35	celeron55	---
14:36	celeron55	okay so, for drawing game-specific backgrounds, how should it choose what is drawn
14:36	celeron55	(in the menu)
14:36	Exio	random look at the shader code, rg += light_source * 1.0; // Make light sources brighter
14:36	Exio	* 1.0?
14:36	celeron55	clouds were added to it since making of this patch so this is nontrivial to merge
14:37	PilzAdam	celeron55, there needs to be a setting to set the camare position and angle relative to the clouds
14:37	PilzAdam	*camera
14:40	celeron55	well that's the least of problems
14:41	PilzAdam	except this there already is support for things like this: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=86085#p86085
14:41	celeron55	do i need to make it so that a game needs to support both, clouded menu and non-clouded menu?
14:41	RealBadAngel	thats easy, i mean camera, shall i add it?
14:42	celeron55	don't add anything
14:42	celeron55	i am trying to rebase this https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/commits/menubackground
14:42	RealBadAngel	ah so, ok
14:43	RealBadAngel	get it done first, then i will make it. im changing this anyways all the time for my personal background
14:44	PilzAdam	celeron55, just load the textures "menufooter.png", "menuheader.png" etc. from the game if they are there
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14:46	celeron55	wtf are these if (path[0]) checks
14:46	celeron55	is this by RealBadAngel?
14:47	RealBadAngel	i dont think so
14:47	RealBadAngel	where's that?
14:47	celeron55	in the cloud menu stuff
14:47	PilzAdam	they are by ShadowNinja\|Away
14:48	tupackshajur	celeron55 stfu you filthy stinkin ugly watermelon eatin fat lip wide noseï»¿ thick skull wild half ape jungle nigger
14:48	Kray	wat
14:49	celeron55	okay, this is going to infinitely stay now
14:49	RealBadAngel	and good
14:49	celeron55	(what the fuck man?)
14:49	celeron55	yeah now he's spamming in query
14:49	Exio	tupackshajur: we love you too
14:50	Exio	celeron55: normal spammer :P
14:50	celeron55	now i ignored !@gateway/web/freenode* in my client
14:50	celeron55	good luck contacting with webchat; fuck the internet i say
14:50	celeron55	now maybe back to actual coding
14:50	Exio	i would have used +R alone ;P
14:51	Kray	who is this guy anyway
14:51	celeron55	i have no idea, probably some misguideed kid
14:51	celeron55	-e
14:51	Kray	the ultimate sperglord
14:52	celeron55	---
14:52	celeron55	hmm, i need to write this down somewhere else than irc
14:53	PilzAdam	celeron55, http://minetest.net/irc
14:54	celeron55	PilzAdam: ?
14:54	PilzAdam	<celeron55> hmm, i need to write this down somewhere else than irc
14:54	celeron55	oh i didn't mean that
14:54	celeron55	i meant what i am going to write now
14:55	PilzAdam	lol, <tupackshajur> i need help with my attitude :(
14:57	RealBadAngel	best help, cut the cable
14:58	celeron55	ummmm
14:58	celeron55	what exactly is the point of menuheader and menufooter?
14:58	celeron55	ah oh, that was designed so because of the tiled background
14:59	celeron55	well, the tiled background is going to go; i wonder if it's ok to just drop the header and footer
14:59	RealBadAngel	header was holding game name
15:00	celeron55	it would be included in the cloud overlay and the regular bg (whichever is used)
15:00	RealBadAngel	http://i.imgur.com/xXhOQBz.jpg like in here
15:01	RealBadAngel	sure
15:01	celeron55	i know but is it needed
15:02	celeron55	i'll make this super simple and then something can be added to it if it turns out such is actually needed for some odd reason
15:02	RealBadAngel	we used what we got, we will get used what we will have ;)
15:02	RealBadAngel	8to
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15:20	sfan5	anything against a commit that reduces the .png sizes of minetest_game?
15:21	iqualfragile	finaly, i was allways using pngcrush localy for that
15:22	sfan5	iqualfragile: i used pngcrush -brute
15:25	celeron55	how much of difference does it make, total %?
15:26	celeron55	one really shouldn't modify files in git unless needed, so you should probably do it only for files that get smaller by like >15% and leave the rest alone
15:26	sfan5	celeron55: http://pastie.org/7753387
15:27	sfan5	so any files except the 2. and the second last one
15:28	celeron55	don't do it now though, we're probably going to mess around with minetest_game and common and whatever during the next days
15:28	sfan5	ok
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15:44	celeron55	http://c55.me/random/2013-05/tscrot-2013-05-02_18-43-28.png
15:44	celeron55	8)
15:44	Jordach	uhj
15:44	Jordach	ugm
15:44	Jordach	uhm*
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15:48	celeron55	UGH
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15:52	hmmmm	why would you use scrot and not F12?
15:52	Jordach	because thats C55
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15:53	celeron55	that's in a menu
15:54	celeron55	also i don't use it otherwise either; i always use my glorious scrot scripts
15:54	celeron55	(except in windows)
15:54	jojoa1997	hi all
16:02	hmmmm	[10:46 AM] <celeron55> wtf are these if (path[0]) checks
16:02	hmmmm	what?
16:02	hmmmm	that's to check if a string is non-empty
16:02	hmmmm	what's wrong with that precisely
16:10	celeron55	ot
16:10	celeron55	it's std::string
16:10	hmmmm	and?
16:11	celeron55	at least in some version of visual studio, debug builds will crash in an indexing assertion if you do that for an empty string
16:11	celeron55	the standard does not define that an indexed std::string would contain null end byte
16:11	hmmmm	that's visual studio's problem, it's valid according to the C++ standard
16:11	celeron55	or does it?
16:11	hmmmm	hrm
16:11	hmmmm	let's find out for certain
16:12	celeron55	for string.c_str()[0] it would be valid, but i'm not so sure about this case
16:12	celeron55	of course in practice it's the same data, but in theory the thing returned by c_str() might not be the same thing
16:13	celeron55	also it's invalid because std::string can contain valid \0s even at the beginning and it does not imply that the string ends
16:13	celeron55	you'll just run into trouble at some point by doing that
16:13	celeron55	(without always considering case by case)
16:14	hmmmm	hrm
16:15	hmmmm	regardless, it seems the official way is to check .empty()
16:15	celeron55	yes, altough !="" is kind of more obvious
16:15	celeron55	(or =="")
16:16	celeron55	probably doesn't matter at all speed- or anything-wise
16:17	hmmmm	what is charT()?
16:17	Jordach	google it.
16:17	hmmmm	oh thanks that's so helpful
16:17	celeron55	https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/commits/menubackground_2
16:18	celeron55	anyhow, here's my rebase
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16:18	celeron55	it uses menu/background.png, menu/overlay.png and menu/icon.png under each game (and works kind of sanely if none exist, and works with clouds)
16:19	celeron55	oh gotta fix the old commit message
16:19	hmmmm	charT is char type
16:19	hmmmm	the templated character type, in this case char
16:19	hmmmm	and i guess by charT() they mean the result of the default constructor of a charT?
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16:20	hmmmm	is that what they're saying??
16:20	celeron55	yes
16:20	hmmmm	but what does the default constructor of a ...char... result in
16:20	celeron55	that's often used in the standard library
16:20	celeron55	it's probably 0 like for integers
16:20	hmmmm	right
16:20	celeron55	the standard defines those somewhere 8)
16:20	hmmmm	so according to the standard that IS valid
16:21	celeron55	what does it say, exactly?
16:21	hmmmm	21.3.4 basic_string element access
16:21	hmmmm	Returns: If pos < size(), returns data()[pos]. Otherwise, if pos == size(), the const
16:21	hmmmm	version returns charT(). Otherwise, the behavior is undefined.
16:21	hmmmm	how do we _know_ it's calling the const version exactly
16:22	celeron55	i guess it defaults to it? 8)
16:22	hmmmm	guessing is bad because this really could be UB
16:23	hmmmm	i bet that confusion between the const and non-const version of element access is the reason why the older VC++ messed it up
16:23	celeron55	maybe
16:23	celeron55	or VC++ is just broken otherwise
16:23	hmmmm	right
16:23	hmmmm	also i believe they claim that VC++ isn't C++
16:23	hmmmm	if that's so, then doesn't it stand to reason that they would have a strict compiler mode, like gcc does?
16:24	celeron55	but... how can you cast a string to non-const and use the [0] of it? :P
16:24	celeron55	it's quite an unintuitive to do
16:24	celeron55	-an
16:25	celeron55	well i'll just hope it tends to work; that's how you deal with C++ anyway :-D
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16:28	Jordach	name suggestion for the engine: minetest_engine
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16:28	hmmmm	seriously, if we do rename the engine, i'd like it to be either FreeMine or Mesetint
16:28	* celeron55	is waiting for naysayers to naysay about his pull request: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/698
16:28	hmmmm	the former is actually nice sounding and doesn't really have any connotations
16:29	hmmmm	ugh horrible, i hate it
16:29	celeron55	i think there is absolutely no reason to rename the engine
16:29	Jordach	i agree.
16:29	Jordach	its just scare tactics
16:29	celeron55	if we want to, we can rename the minecraft-clonish game
16:29	Jordach	someone's trying to make the devs look bad
16:30	celeron55	but that isn't needed either
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16:30	Jordach	yeah
16:30	hmmmm	even if we don't need to rename anything, it's probably still a good idea to give alternative games a bigger spotlight
16:30	celeron55	i recommend everyone to stop worrying about little details like that and just do useful stuff
16:31	Jordach	celeron55, well, lets just highlight minetest_game and "hide" the engine in the background
16:31	hmmmm	i thought it was a little detail too until i realized what it must entail
16:31	hmmmm	we've spent enough energy on it though
16:31	Jordach	even though google already autocorrects minet to minetest
16:32	celeron55	it auto-corrects minet to "minetet" ofr me :D
16:32	celeron55	r>>1
16:32	rubenwardy	does not auto correct at all for me
16:32	celeron55	...
16:32	Jordach	the next stage development should do is finish mgv7
16:33	celeron55	ehm, that doesn't fix anything, i wonder what this keyboard did
16:33	hmmmm	i really don't know how much time i have to work on mgv7
16:33	Jordach	hmmmm, it is very beautiful
16:33	hmmmm	i'm graduating in 2 weeks, the semester is ending, and i am loaded with all these papers
16:33	celeron55	Jordach: people are too focused on that in my opinion
16:33	Jordach	celeron55, 0.3.4 is calling
16:33	celeron55	it's great and all, but not really a game-changer
16:34	hmmmm	the only reason why i'm chatting here right now is because i am procrastinating
16:34	hmmmm	i don't like some aspects of mgv7's terrain
16:34	* Jordach	whips hmmmm
16:34	hmmmm	i'd like to fix that later on sometime
16:34	hmmmm	i absolutely love my spawn pos for the fixed map seed i use though
16:34	Jordach	whats the area like?
16:34	hmmmm	which is why i am probably reluctant to change anything about that right away
16:35	hmmmm	the one i took the screenshot of
16:35	Jordach	at dev.minetest.net/mgv7 right?
16:35	hmmmm	a big grassy field surrounded by mountains
16:35	hmmmm	yeah
16:35	Jordach	nice
16:35	hmmmm	but i hate how it has those straight ridges on coasts sometimes
16:36	hmmmm	i'm not exactly sure what causes that.. the height function is continuous
16:37	celeron55	does someone think i should squash some of #698 before merging?
16:37	hmmmm	naah
16:38	celeron55	hmm, travis build has failed
16:38	* celeron55	looks
16:38	Jordach	uhoh
16:38	celeron55	wtfg
16:39	celeron55	ah, server build... ehm, yeah, /me fixes
16:47	celeron55	well, it's in
16:48	celeron55	somebody needs to create and add the relevant images to minetest_game
16:49	celeron55	here's a 48px icon for it: http://c55.me/random/2013-05/minetest_icon.png
16:49	celeron55	i'm wondering when the naysayers will come 8)
16:49	Zeg9	Survival game's image could be sfan5's forum pic :-)
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16:53	* sfan5	agrees with Zeg9
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16:57	Jordach	naysayers dont like change
17:03	PilzAdam	celeron55, http://c55.me/random/2013-05/tscrot-2013-05-02_18-43-28.png <- that screenshot is by me
17:04	Jordach	PilzAdam, you do not own screenshots :)
17:07	celeron55	PilzAdam: i know :P
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17:08	PilzAdam	noooooooooooooooooooooo!
17:08	celeron55	it's the only good screenshot of that game :P
17:08	PilzAdam	why do you have merged this stupid game filter!?!
17:08	celeron55	because it's highly useful and appropriate for our long-term purposes
17:08	celeron55	it could be configurable if you want though
17:09	celeron55	i seriously think you'll get to like it though, it makes organizing games much easier because the list is smaller
17:11	PilzAdam	so, when do we start moving things from common back to minetest_game?
17:12	hmmmm	hold on why are we doing that now
17:12	celeron55	i'm waiting if somebody comes up with a valid reason to not to
17:12	hmmmm	why does everybody need to keep changing things
17:12	celeron55	we're cancelling a failed experiment, basically
17:13	hmmmm	why did it fail again?
17:16	celeron55	it does not bring us anything useful, it is overly convoluted for users and developers and modders and it gives a completely wrong image of what the game system of minetest intends to do
17:16	celeron55	there really is nothing good in it
17:17	Zeg9	Some stuff in it like wool should be kept in
17:17	Zeg9	default mod should be part of each game thouhg -- IMO
17:17	celeron55	everything will be kept in
17:17	Zeg9	s/thouhg/though
17:18	celeron55	>default mod should be part of each game though
17:18	celeron55	lol no
17:18	celeron55	it definitely should not be; otherwise the gameability of minetest is completely wasted
17:19	celeron55	naynaynaynay says the naysayers 8)
17:19	Jordach	celeron55, feed they hey
17:19	Jordach	them*
17:20	PilzAdam	lol
17:20	PilzAdam	I read "nyan"
17:21	celeron55	now i'll proceed to making a game on this that is something so different that nobody really even thought of attempting such
17:21	celeron55	and if the engine does not allow me to, i will make the engine come out of the way
17:25	PilzAdam	anyone against using the minetest logo for minetest_game?
17:28	sfan5	no
17:31	Zeg9	What about the background?
17:32	PilzAdam	clouds are fine for now
17:36	celeron55	PilzAdam: i think we can abandon build and survival (not delete (yet)), but leave the common mod scheme in for a little while until we are sure what to do to it
17:36	celeron55	altough, that can't be done until everything is included in minetest_game...
17:37	celeron55	well, you're free to do that, there are no other viable alternatives
17:37	* PilzAdam	copies all common mods to minetest_game/mods
17:38	celeron55	well you could just include them from there for now
17:40	PilzAdam	what about chaning the name in game.conf to "Minetest Game" and display that in the [] at the end of worlds in the world list?
17:40	celeron55	it's not useful at all to append it to every world in there unless the list actually shows worlds from different games
17:40	celeron55	but you can change the top left corner to show the game.conf name
17:41	PilzAdam	oh, right
17:41	* PilzAdam	forgot about this new game filter
17:41	celeron55	8)
17:42	PilzAdam	I noticed one thing: if you click on "New" you can still choose the game, but the filter doesnt switch to that game after that, so you dont see the world if the selected game is different
17:43	PilzAdam	so either always use the game that is selected in the filter in world creation or switch the filter to the selected game
17:48	celeron55	oh true
17:56	celeron55	first thing that gets in the way: there's no way to modify the skybox in a game
17:56	celeron55	did RealBadAngel have some work on this?
17:57	RealBadAngel	im working but not using skybox but skydome
17:58	RealBadAngel	http://i.imgur.com/W9vgYNr.jpg
18:00	kaeza	RealBadAngel, WOW that looks very realistic
18:00	* sfan5	agrees with kaeza
18:00	PilzAdam	celeron55, https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest/commit/41a758872ce214224bcb2a7e6fbd471f2a4ed682
18:01	celeron55	umm i fixed that using a single line that just selects the selected game in the menu 8)
18:02	RealBadAngel	http://i.imgur.com/JmuHeve.png http://i.imgur.com/i692bUl.jpg http://i.imgur.com/lsmgMF3.jpg
18:02	celeron55	(just pushed)
18:02	Jordach	RealBadAngel, FUCK YEAH
18:02	celeron55	PilzAdam: this is slightly simpler 8) https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/ee8067f7cfa5b25e12a166bd5d306a905630ee92
18:02	celeron55	oh that's a different thing
18:02	* celeron55	is stupid
18:02	Jordach	celeron55, nope.avi
18:04	RealBadAngel	and two funny ones: http://i.imgur.com/ETkhTnV.png http://i.imgur.com/3Ap14GZ.png :)
18:04	celeron55	PilzAdam: it looks good enough
18:04	celeron55	(assuming it works)
18:04	Jordach	i would accept the death star any day of the week
18:05	Jordach	i would texture the sun: It's day. the moon: It's night dumbass
18:05	RealBadAngel	i would like to make animated skydome, with clouds, stars etc
18:05	celeron55	RealBadAngel: are you implementing that as a thing that a mod or a game will set?
18:05	PilzAdam	pushed
18:06	celeron55	because i immediately need something that will allow me to set the skybox from Lua
18:06	RealBadAngel	it can be easily textureable, just by replacing the files
18:06	PilzAdam	what about a rain mod?
18:07	PilzAdam	that wants to change the texture to clouds or sun or whatever the current weather is
18:07	RealBadAngel	celeron55, i just started to play with it yesterday
18:07	RealBadAngel	but adding a skydome with texture to scene is trivial
18:07	RealBadAngel	hold on a sec
18:08	celeron55	i don't want skydome, it's hard to texture properly for my use case
18:09	celeron55	maybe i'll add player:set_sky("box", {top, bottom, side1, side2, side3, side4})
18:09	celeron55	it can be extended then in whatever way
18:10	RealBadAngel	adding skydome is singleliner
18:10	RealBadAngel	scene::ISceneNode* skydome=SceneManager->addSkyDomeSceneNode(driver->getTexture(
18:10	RealBadAngel	getTexturePath("skydome.png").c_str()),16,8,0.95f,2.0f);
18:10	RealBadAngel
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18:10	BlockMen	RealBadAngel, that looks great.
18:10	RealBadAngel	and there are plenty fine textures out there
18:10	celeron55	so is skybox, altough it doesn't really fit on a single line because it has six textures
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18:15	RealBadAngel	http://www.philohome.com/skycollec/skycollec.htm
18:15	BlockMen	http://c55.me/random/2013-05/tscrot-2013-05-02_18-43-28.png <- for what are the buttons on the bottom left?
18:16	RealBadAngel	to select games
18:16	PilzAdam	its a game filter
18:16	BlockMen	nice
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18:20	PilzAdam	celeron55_, its hard to detect what worldnames already exist
18:21	PilzAdam	I have 6 games in my minetest copy installed, and I dont want to go through them all the time to find out what the next worldname is
18:22	celeron55_	that means there should be clear indication of whether one exists or not... some "world of this name already exists!" text in the creation dialog?
18:22	celeron55_	having multiple worlds with the same name isn't really an option
18:23	celeron55_	and i mean, "world of this name already exists!" should appear and disappear when typing the name
18:23	celeron55_	otherwise it's a pain
18:43	hmmmm	gahh
18:44	hmmmm	okay i finally fixed mgv7's getGroundLevelAtPoint
18:44	hmmmm	just my retardation at work... i had a non-zero offset for ridge noise that was never applied to the perlin noise map but is applied to the point value
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19:32	sfan5	can i pngcrush common now?
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20:26	celeron55_	http://c55.me/random/2013-05/screenshot_1726683685.png
20:26	celeron55_	here's something different (tm)
20:29	celeron55_	Something Different*
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21:10	proller	celeron55_, like math mapgen
21:51	PilzAdam	sfan5, I can only reduce the size of mods/ by 0.1 MiB with pngcrush -brute
21:54	sapier	if you have .x models in there using b3d models is way more effective
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23:12	hmmmm	celeron, about space settings and other things that have no directional lighting
23:13	hmmmm	what would you say to adding another kind of air that's a light source
23:13	hmmmm	and simply not calculating sunlight at all
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23:29	kahrl	hmmmm: you still would need to propagate that when you dig straight down into a cave, or when you close a cave off from the sky
23:30	kahrl	in a space game you could set air's (and all nodes') sunlight_propagates = false
23:33	hmmmm	it strikes me as such a bad solution though
23:33	kahrl	why?
23:33	hmmmm	another kind of air? really?
23:33	hmmmm	you've played minecraft, right?
23:34	kahrl	technically the main transparent node in a space game shouldn't be air but vacuum
23:34	hmmmm	what happens when you dig a hole in the terrain in the nether realm and then cover yourself over?
23:35	kahrl	I don't know how it is coded but the entire nether is shielded by a bedrock ceiling
23:35	kahrl	what happens if you remove that in creative? I haven't tried
23:35	Exio	nothing weird
23:36	Exio	there is no sun or moon or outside-light
23:36	Exio	in the top of that "nether roof" there is: nothing but bedrock and void
23:37	hmmmm	kahrl, the answer to my question tells us whether or not they just lighten the actual color shades that each value is mapped to
23:38	hmmmm	which is something else very plausible
23:39	kahrl	hang on let me check
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23:42	kahrl	ok, it's a bit weird
23:42	kahrl	anything in the nether you can access normally in survival has sl: 0 (sunlight)
23:43	hmmmm	so it's like i said?
23:43	kahrl	the ceiling is at y=128, but since the world height is now 256, you can build above it if you get there
23:44	kahrl	the chunks above y=128 are generated with sl=15
23:44	hmmmm	i'm not really concerned about the sunlight propogation, it's quite obvious that it doesn't happen for nether/end
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23:44	kahrl	after I placed some blocks, the sl in the affected chunks was recalculated to 0
23:44	hmmmm	ah
23:44	kahrl	it didn't change the appearance in any way
23:46	Exio	there are light glitches in the top of the nether
23:46	Exio	at least in survival
23:46	kahrl	I didn't see any of those but I didn't look very far
23:47	Exio	well, not glitches
23:47	Exio	just you place a torch and you have "half" of the stuff what you light up darker than the other half
23:48	kahrl	oh yeah
23:49	kahrl	I had placed a nether portal above y=128 which created some light, when I just loaded the world again it didn't illuminate a part of the area
23:51	Exio	MC has a lot of light glitches ;P
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