IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2013-03-27

Time	Nick	Message
00:43		dexter0 joined #minetest-dev
01:08	hmmmm	back
01:24	hmmmm	PilzAdam, check this out: http://ompldr.org/vaHc4Yg
01:26	hmmmm	that's 8^3 -> 16^3
01:26	hmmmm	ramp starting at 100, max height 600
01:48	hmmmm	http://ompldr.org/vaHc4aQ 8^3->24^3, ramp starting at 0, max height 300
01:48	hmmmm	to be honest i don't like this kind of ore
01:48	hmmmm	can we just keep it the way it currently is?
01:53	ShadowNinja	I like it, otherwise going beneath about -500 is pointless
02:56	VanessaE	22:56:05: ERROR[ServerThread]: register_ore: clust_scarcity and clust_num_oresmust be greater than 0ServerEnvironment::addActiveObjectRaw(): could not find block for storing id=10 statically (pos=(-241,16,-421))
02:56	VanessaE	wtf?>
02:56	VanessaE	(it did not cause a crash)
02:57	VanessaE	I wonder which one triggered that "error"..
02:57	VanessaE	perhaps this should be prefixed as "WARNING" instead?
03:26	VanessaE	ah, just got that bad::alloc error
03:27	VanessaE	http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5651236/
03:27	VanessaE	now with complete gdb backtrace.
03:28	VanessaE	hmmmm: need anything else before I restart the server?
03:28	hmmmm	excellent work
03:28	hmmmm	no, nothing else
03:28	VanessaE	ok
03:29	hmmmm	the problem is clearly a Z coordinate of -50415
03:29	hmmmm	who's doing what all the way out THERE!?
03:32	VanessaE	HOW did anyone get there?
03:32	VanessaE	oh wait
03:32	VanessaE	I bet I know how
03:32	VanessaE	I bet jeija's jumping mod sent someone out into nowheresville
03:33	VanessaE	some obscure engine bug that happens with the right combination of trampolines.
03:35	hmmmm	yeah. i can tell you more about the actual reason of the bug, just from looking at the backtrace (i don't know anything about collisionMoveSimple) i can see that there's a bad std::alloc, which means you probably tried to allocate too much memory, there's a really low Z, and i see min_z = -21978. putting two and two together, i suppose what happened is that it tried to allocate roughly cx * cy * 20000 objects and wasn't able to.
03:36	hmmmm	i refuse to get involved with collision detection however, i can be more productive elsewhere..
03:38	VanessaE	wouldn't it make sense to restrict players to within the normal range of the map?
03:39	hmmmm	yes, of course. along with all entities.
03:41	VanessaE	yeah
03:41	VanessaE	I wonder if this is related to peaceful_npc...
03:41		jojoa1997\|Tablet joined #minetest-dev
03:46		kaeza joined #minetest-dev
04:09	VanessaE	well at least now there something to show what happens and where.
04:18		mrtux joined #minetest-dev
04:21		BackupCoder joined #minetest-dev
05:53		kaeza1 joined #minetest-dev
06:10		darkrose joined #minetest-dev
06:57	celeron55_	< PilzAdam> we need some suggestions for a redesigned menu
06:58	celeron55_	this is very hard to do unless you limit yourself to irrlicht gui librarie's theming abilities (which basically mean you can switch the color of most things)
06:58	celeron55_	(but nothing else, and not even the color of everything, at least independently)
07:02	celeron55_	about collisionMoveSimple: it should work with anything; if it doesn't, sane limits should be added into it so that it doesn't try to allocate megabytes of stuff if something is wrong
07:03	celeron55_	but i don't see it allocating anything so i wonder what this is all about
07:04	hmmmm	it's in a push_back()
07:04	celeron55_	oh, it does return an std::vector of collision events; maybe it tries to put too much stuff into that
07:04	celeron55_	should be simple to limit :P
07:05	celeron55_	oh and now i see more push_backs... these are probably the reason
07:06	celeron55_	and indeed it's most likely about the area that it calculates is needed for figuring out all collisions
07:06	celeron55_	it just needs a limit to speed_f and everything will be fine
07:07	VanessaE	what would be the likely cause, from a userland perspective?
07:07	celeron55_	way too much acceleration
07:07	VanessaE	thought so.
07:07	VanessaE	jeija's jumping (trampolines) mod is the only one that could have triggered that
07:07	celeron55_	also, way too much speed will do to
07:08	celeron55_	too*
07:08	VanessaE	nod
07:42		kaeza joined #minetest-dev
07:53		Jeija__ joined #minetest-dev
10:04		Calinou joined #minetest-dev
10:33		proller joined #minetest-dev
10:41		darkrose joined #minetest-dev
10:41		darkrose joined #minetest-dev
10:46		troller joined #minetest-dev
11:30		PilzAdam joined #minetest-dev
11:53		proller__ joined #minetest-dev
12:49		jojoa1997\|Tablet joined #minetest-dev
12:55		celeron55 joined #minetest-dev
13:32		serengeor joined #minetest-dev
13:33		iqualfragile joined #minetest-dev
15:01		Taoki joined #minetest-dev
15:06		iqualfragile joined #minetest-dev
15:30	ShadowNinja	Anyone with push access: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/572
15:42		hmmmm joined #minetest-dev
16:00	celeron55	urgh, the launchpad build would need curl and freetype added
16:01	celeron55	that means updating this file in this minetest-c55/packaging bazaar repo http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~minetestdevs/minetest-c55/packaging/view/head:/control
16:02	celeron55	and hell no, i'm not going to try that
16:02	celeron55	oh and, juhani isn't available at that e-mail address anymore and i don't have any other contact information of him; so he's gone
16:04	celeron55	i'll see if the guy who originally set up launchpad is around
16:06	celeron55	actually no, i'll not do that before launchpad has fixed the stable recipe thing
16:10	jojoa1997\|Tablet	is it possible to unload or override the default mod?
16:14		dexter0 joined #minetest-dev
16:15	celeron55	jojoa1997\|Tablet: you can override things in it, but not remove
16:16	jojoa1997\|Tablet	i want to override default so i can still load the stairs mod but not use default
16:16	celeron55	make a modified version of the stairs mod
16:17	jojoa1997\|Tablet	i tried copying all the mods into the game folder but then i got all unknown blocks
16:18	jojoa1997\|Tablet	brb
16:21		PilzAdam joined #minetest-dev
16:21	jojoa1997\|Tablet	back
16:22	jojoa1997\|Tablet	the thing is i have a modified verson of default and both are kinda merging properties
16:23	jojoa1997\|Tablet	i need to load default for dependency and also it stops me from having unknown blocks everywhere
16:23	jojoa1997\|Tablet	but i need to override it so only the modified version defines nodes
16:27	PilzAdam	jojoa1997\|Tablet, just add a empty default mod
16:27	PilzAdam	and be sure to have proper aliases for everything
16:27	jojoa1997\|Tablet	pilzadam this id for your game minitest
16:27	PilzAdam	I know
16:28	jojoa1997\|Tablet	i got a working version but it just aliases the prefix
16:28	jojoa1997\|Tablet	could i add this to the game config
16:28	jojoa1997\|Tablet	mods = minitest
16:29	PilzAdam	I dont think this belongs to #minetest-dev
16:30	jojoa1997\|Tablet	sorry but i have been asking for a half in hour in the other channel
16:40	hmmmm	so what did you think
16:40	hmmmm	about the ores yesterday
16:43		Calinou joined #minetest-dev
17:08		iqualfragile1 joined #minetest-dev
17:11	hmmmm	pilzadam, no comment?
17:11	PilzAdam	hm?
17:11	hmmmm	about the ores
17:12	PilzAdam	you mean this: http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2013-03-27#i_2959315 ?
17:13	hmmmm	yeah
17:13	PilzAdam	why dont you like it?
17:14	hmmmm	we're still going to need differently-sized clusters and what not
17:14	hmmmm	so we'd have to make just as many definitions
17:15	PilzAdam	the current mapgen.lua has 3 register_ore calls for iron with the same size, and one with a bigger cluster size
17:15	PilzAdam	so it is definetly useful
17:16	hmmmm	i jsut checked and they're all different
17:16	PilzAdam	also the smoothness of it is better than the current system
17:17	hmmmm	it's not smooth though
17:17	hmmmm	the scarcity difference only happens on chunk boundaries
17:17	hmmmm	so if someone sets chunksize=15 or something, they won't see any difference in scarcity at all
17:17	PilzAdam	well, its smoother than the current system
17:18	hmmmm	i'm not so sure about that
17:18	hmmmm	the first two transitions between scarcity and chunk size for iron happen well within a chunk
17:19	PilzAdam	hm
17:19	hmmmm	this whole thing sounded nice in concept but it doesn't look really good to be honest
17:20	hmmmm	and it complicates things
17:20	hmmmm	i'm all about doing more with less, and the less machinery we need to do accomplish the same task just as well, the better
17:26	PilzAdam	what about this for gold: https://gist.github.com/PilzAdam/5256312 ?
17:28	hmmmm	yeah looks good
17:28	PilzAdam	Id also like to make mese more rare
17:28	hmmmm	mese, or mese ore?
17:28	PilzAdam	both
17:28	hmmmm	okay, as long as it doesn't throw off the game balance
17:29	hmmmm	why does gold get more rare the further you go down though?
17:29	hmmmm	oh sorry, i read that wrong
17:29	PilzAdam	how about 48^3 for the block, 16^3 and 12^3 for the mese ores?
17:29	hmmmm	48^3 is basically impossible to find
17:30	PilzAdam	well, the block should be impossible to find
17:30	hmmmm	well hold on a minute.
17:30	hmmmm	a block is 80x80x80
17:30	hmmmm	that means there are 4 of these per chunk
17:31	hmmmm	four
17:31	celeron55	you wouldn't find it even with TNT 8)
17:31	celeron55	except by a rare-ish chance
17:32	celeron55	it could be desired though - it gives some dynamic to the game
17:32	PilzAdam	the main source for mese are the ores
17:32	hmmmm	that mese block better be the most awesome thing to exist, otherwise it's not worth finding them
17:34	PilzAdam	you can still craft mese blocks out of 9 crystals
17:34	Exio	what about mesecons?
17:34	Exio	making them harder to obtain? why?
17:34	celeron55	by the way, i still have the "upstreamified" versions of the tnt (split to tnt and explosion) and the item pickup mods around that i made... well, somewhere like 2012-10
17:34	PilzAdam	because mese tools are very powerful and shouldnt be too easy to get
17:34	celeron55	is there desire for those?
17:35	hmmmm	back when I played minetest, I tried out the TNT and recall it being very buggy
17:35	PilzAdam	hmmmm, wich TNT mod?
17:35	hmmmm	don't really recall
17:35	Exio	explosion in C++?
17:35	Exio	celeron55: ^
17:35	celeron55	all in lua
17:36	celeron55	i added the one related thing to the lua api then though
17:36	hmmmm	oh my god we need the voxelmanipulator in lua right NOW
17:36	PilzAdam	celeron55, does it use the on_blast function?
17:36	celeron55	that one
17:36	hmmmm	i'm tired with all the "let's put it in C++"
17:36	VanessaE	<offtopic> for the logs if anyone cares, two crashes today... earlier, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5652641/ and just now, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5652875/ </offtopic>
17:36	celeron55	i think TNT works just well as Lua-only
17:36	celeron55	the explosions are small enough
17:36	Exio	i think there should be something, at least very bare, for defining the "hardness" of blocks
17:36	PilzAdam	VanessaE, are you fine with mese being more rare?
17:37	celeron55	Exio: ehm... there is? digging time groups and levels
17:37	VanessaE	PilzAdam: mese blocks you mean?
17:37	celeron55	they were designed with explosions in mind
17:37	PilzAdam	VanessaE, and the deeper ore
17:37	Exio	ah
17:37	VanessaE	PilzAdam: yeah, it should be reasonably rare, and it isn't now, so go with what you've got and if it needs tweaked later, do that then
17:38	PilzAdam	for the deeper ore: 999 -> 121212
17:38	PilzAdam	for the block: 161616 ->484848
17:39	VanessaE	I'll have to take your word for it, I don't understand the new parameters yet
17:39	VanessaE	but that seems fair
17:39	hmmmm	how about 36
17:39	PilzAdam	for the block?
17:39	hmmmm	yes..
17:39	VanessaE	blocks should be very rare
17:39	hmmmm	yes, and they are
17:39	hmmmm	you people have no effing idea how rare 36^3 is
17:40	VanessaE	but not as much so as pop tart cats of course :)
17:40	hmmmm	you think you know but you don't
17:40	VanessaE	I have no f'ing idea how rare 999 is anyway
17:40	VanessaE	:)
17:40	PilzAdam	Ill make it 36^3 then
17:42	PilzAdam	so, how about diamonds?
17:43	hmmmm	diamond ore should be like 15^3
17:43	PilzAdam	num_ores = 2?
17:43	PilzAdam	so you cant make a pick if you find one clust
17:43	celeron55	thinking about the rareness of things is probably best done by thinking about how long worth of caves you are likely to need to walk in order to see it in the wall
17:43	hmmmm	no way
17:44	celeron55	it goes roughly so that a single node length of cave will reveal roughly 12 nodes
17:44	hmmmm	in minecraft, i think diamonds come in clusters of 4 or 5
17:44	PilzAdam	lets make it 4 then
17:44	celeron55	thus, for something that appears once in 363 nodes, you need to walk 363/12=3888 nodes worth of cave
17:45	celeron55	that's further divided by the size of a cluster though
17:45	PilzAdam	wich min height? -1024?
17:45	hmmmm	no that's insane
17:45	hmmmm	pilz your judgement blows
17:45	hmmmm	should start at -32 say
17:45	celeron55	go play some minecraft alpha; it's lovelily crowded
17:46	PilzAdam	hmmmm, mese starts at -64
17:46	hmmmm	it's not mese though
17:46	PilzAdam	diamonds are better than mese
17:46	PilzAdam	so they should be a bit more rare
17:46	hmmmm	hrmm
17:46	hmmmm	alright, i guess we can start diamonds at -128
17:46	hmmmm	and you use the mese to get to diamonds or something
17:46	celeron55	i think the availability of an ore should not be singlely dependent on how frustratingly deep it is
17:47	hmmmm	got anything better/
17:47	celeron55	there should be something in it that makes it challenging to get other than just the deepness
17:47	celeron55	i don't have anything pratical, only completely untested ideas
17:47	hmmmm	well what are the idea? i can probably shoot a couple down 8)
17:48	hmmmm	s/idea/ideas/
17:48	celeron55	sure
17:48	PilzAdam	so, I have scarcity=14^3, num_ores = 4 and height_max=-128
17:48	celeron55	at least one is that the tools for mining an ore (or a layer that surrounds it) are obtainable only from somewhere else than the ore itself
17:48	hmmmm	hrmm, seems good pilz
17:49	PilzAdam	celeron55, currently you need a steel axe to get mese and diamonds
17:49	PilzAdam	*pick
17:49	celeron55	it's a lighter implementation of that idea, yes; but quite light and single-dimensional
17:49	hmmmm	i think what he means is like
17:50	hmmmm	maybe you need an enchantment on a tool in order to mine some super rare and good stuff
17:50	hmmmm	or have some sort of item there are only a handful of at any given point on the map
17:50	hmmmm	that would be a cool idea
17:51	celeron55	or that are obtainable only by fighting a certain monster, or something
17:51	hmmmm	yeah but that necessitates having mobs
17:51	celeron55	yes, i know; that is why i left it last 8)
17:51	PilzAdam	https://github.com/PilzAdam/common/compare/master...ores
17:52	hmmmm	anyway i was thinking maybe there can be a single really epic tool that is generated once on the map and never again after that
17:52	hmmmm	and it's left on the surface
17:52	hmmmm	not underground or anything
17:52	celeron55	if there is something like that, then there should be similarly globally generate clues for where it is, because otherwise it's impossible to find
17:52	celeron55	generated*
17:53	PilzAdam	VanessaE, are you ok with this: https://github.com/PilzAdam/common/compare/master...ores ?
17:53	celeron55	this is actually something for which on_generated can be useful - very game-specific, and only done in rare places for a small amount of nodes
17:53	PilzAdam	the aliases for moreores are added in minetest_game
17:53	celeron55	(maybe)
17:53	hmmmm	well the thing is, it wouldn't be a 1 in (31000/80)^2 chance like you might think, it could a much lower chance so the user finds it faster
17:53	hmmmm	much higher chance*
17:54	celeron55	then there is the multiplayer aspect which screws up all nice singleplayer game thinking
17:54	celeron55	8)
17:54	hmmmm	and again, because there's a lock for only one at any given time, a higher probability of finding it won't mean there are more of them
17:54	hmmmm	well no that's fine
17:54	hmmmm	because look, conflict
17:54	hmmmm	"who controls the epicpick"
17:55	hmmmm	and then people can fight eachother for the pick
17:55	VanessaE	I thought the plan was to put all the new ores in all at once?
17:55	celeron55	should we design minetest mainly so that the gamey aspect is made for singleplayer, and people can tune their servers around it as they like
17:55	PilzAdam	or someone gets the epicpick and leaves the server forever?
17:55	hmmmm	vanessa, that was the plan, yeah.
17:55	VanessaE	otherwise, this all looks okay to me, save for the question of how rare mese blocks should be
17:56	VanessaE	hmmmm: ok, just making sure I didn't miss a step.
17:56	hmmmm	pilzadam, that's the thing - have to iron that detail out, but i'd say make sure it can't be put into a locked chest
17:56	PilzAdam	why put all ores in at once?
17:56	celeron55	a finished game is so much about finishing frustrating details that anyone who hasn't done it won't believe it
17:56	celeron55	minetest has never gone through that stage
17:57	VanessaE	PilzAdam: do it once, do it right?
17:57	PilzAdam	what ores do you want?
17:58	hmmmm	i don't think it really matters
17:58	hmmmm	as long as they're all there before a release
17:58	PilzAdam	I mean, diamonds and gold are ready yet; why should we wait?
17:58	hmmmm	celeron, that was just one idea though, what were the others?
17:59	hmmmm	and i think it isn't too difficult to implement either
18:00	PilzAdam	hmmmm, I had a random thought about the cave air replacing leaves: maybe make it only replace things that have ground_content = true in nodedef?
18:00	hmmmm	you know, here's the funny thing: i've been treating minetest like it was just some program and not a game that people play. that is, backward compatibility is of the utmost importance, there are 100 things to configure, i even refer to people as "users" instead of "players"
18:01	hmmmm	pilzadam, now there's a good idea
18:01	hmmmm	why is it that i never consider the node properties, just the specific nodes themselves
18:02	celeron55	well, then, making some kind of environmental effects to eg. turn ore or something into an another ore... a bit like an extension to lava+water making cobble and obsidian; maybe causing some pressure on some ore, or letting hot air out from some type of nodes from the place where they originally are underground
18:03	PilzAdam	celeron55, why was ground_content added to the default nodes?
18:03	celeron55	and this i mean on a natural node level, not some pumps and pipes with text fields
18:03	hmmmm	the former example could be done with claylike ore perhaps
18:03	celeron55	PilzAdam: it's a legacy think
18:03	celeron55	thing*
18:04	PilzAdam	so, can we re-use it?
18:04	celeron55	it once was some kind of a hint for the map generator
18:04	celeron55	you can, but be aware that mods use it very haphazardly
18:04	celeron55	as it's in some examples and actually does nothing
18:05	hmmmm	so what do we call the legendary pickaxe there's only one of? :p
18:05	hmmmm	i vote for "Epick"
18:05	PilzAdam	hmmmm, so, lets give dirt, dirt_with_grass, stone and sand ground_content=true and let the mapgenerator only replace them?
18:05	hmmmm	pilzadam, yes
18:05	hmmmm	also all ores need to be ground_content=true
18:05	PilzAdam	and add it to lua-api.txt
18:06	PilzAdam	actually its called is_ground_content currently; should we rename it?
18:06	hmmmm	shrug
18:07	celeron55	i think having "is" or "has" or some other on/off verb at the beginning of boolean values is good
18:07	celeron55	for "ground_content", you'd think that it would define "what" the ground contains
18:07	PilzAdam	ok
18:08	PilzAdam	what about sandstone?
18:10	hmmmm	sandstone too of course
18:10	hmmmm	don't forget cobble either
18:10	hmmmm	need to be able to let caves eat dungeons
18:10	hmmmm	and gravel
18:10	PilzAdam	https://github.com/PilzAdam/common/commit/1c0c6a8db604fca740eda38e021a99b35dfafcf1
18:11	PilzAdam	every solid node had it already
18:11	celeron55	i guess the majority of things are "ground content" and the minority is things that shouldn't be eaten by the map generator
18:11	VanessaE	shouldn't only those things added by the default mapgen be in that group in the first place?
18:11	celeron55	maybe the reverse would be better? 8)
18:12	VanessaE	(minus trees/leaves)
18:12	PilzAdam	VanessaE, no
18:12	PilzAdam	that would require a change of the mods if the mapgen changes
18:12	VanessaE	hrm
18:12	VanessaE	I guess so.
18:13	PilzAdam	what about stairs?
18:13	hmmmm	stairs too yes
18:13	celeron55	basically only those should have is_ground_content=false that are put in the world at world generation but shouldn't be eaten by caves
18:14	celeron55	that means trees and... ehm... what else?
18:14	PilzAdam	papyrus, cactus, grass
18:14	celeron55	small things should be, because otherwise they'll be floating in air without any support while the cave generator would have eaten them nicely completely anyway
18:15	celeron55	trees are a problem only because they can be larger than caves and be left partially exist
18:15	celeron55	so tree-like things (eg. generated buildings) are such
18:16	celeron55	this leads to a funny thing
18:16	celeron55	stairs would not be in that one because of dungeons, but still if there was stairs in a generated house, they shouldn't be removed by caves
18:17	hmmmm	but generated houses would be made out of other ground content too
18:17	celeron55	so you think generated houses shouldn't work like trees?
18:18	celeron55	why do trees need to have special behavior anyway
18:18	PilzAdam	what about liquids?
18:18	hmmmm	that whole thing is very difficult
18:18	celeron55	if buildings don't need to
18:18	hmmmm	liquids, false
18:18	celeron55	i'd imagine having a cave go through a building is worse than having a cave go through a large tree
18:18	hmmmm	the cave generator already does a special check to not replace water or lava
18:18	hmmmm	hrmmm this is such a difficult problem
18:19	celeron55	i think you should just ignore it; it's too much work for too little benefit and every solution has a downside 8)
18:19	hmmmm	i mean
18:19	hmmmm	it's not what was placed
18:19	hmmmm	instead, it's how it's been placed
18:19	celeron55	it's all about the context, yes
18:19	celeron55	vmanip is able to preserve context via flags
18:19	hmmmm	the obvious solution would be to store a flag to not replace this
18:20		iqualfragile joined #minetest-dev
18:20	hmmmm	but we don't have a bit to spare
18:20	celeron55	but they don't stay between generator invocations
18:20	celeron55	well, you often have
18:21	celeron55	but eg. for stairs, you don't
18:21	celeron55	they use lighting, and they use facedir
18:21	hmmmm	erhm, would you like to take it out of the content?
18:21	hmmmm	i kid.
18:21	celeron55	take what out of... where?
18:21	hmmmm	the content field
18:21	hmmmm	i was joking, i don't really think we should do that.
18:22	PilzAdam	https://github.com/PilzAdam/common/commit/58927129aa194be0f10ee9fd283fe66c8e670696
18:22	celeron55	it's arguable that the id space is too small already
18:22	hmmmm	16 bits is crazy
18:22	celeron55	people have crazy amounts of nodes
18:22	hmmmm	people are going to really have 65000 nodes? really
18:22	hmmmm	65000 is nuts though
18:23	celeron55	go tell VanessaE, i think she was the first to go over ~2048 that was once the limit
18:23	hmmmm	also a lot of those nodes are duplicate ones with different hues
18:23	celeron55	and that was LONG ago
18:23	hmmmm	imagine all the definitions needed for 65000 nodes
18:23	celeron55	i already said it's completely crazy; but that's how it is 8)
18:24	hmmmm	anyway with the 6d facedir that will probably be cut back
18:25	VanessaE	my server has some 2600 defined nodeas
18:25	hmmmm	certifiably insane
18:25	celeron55	have you used each of them? 8)
18:26	VanessaE	each mod on my server has been used, yes.
18:26	VanessaE	can't exactly pick and choose one node from here, two from there :)
18:27	VanessaE	(except, I guess no one uses mese starter kit, but PilzAdam is about to integrate that into default anyway)
18:27	ShadowNinja	the meta nodedef branch should cut the number a lot more
18:27	VanessaE	ShadowNinja: 6d facedir will help too, eventually
18:27	PilzAdam	what keeps us from merging this branch in right now: https://github.com/PilzAdam/common/compare/master...ores ?
18:28	hmmmm	PilzAdam, nothing
18:29	ShadowNinja	you raised the digging times of the mese pick!
18:29	PilzAdam	yes
18:29	PilzAdam	because we have diamonds now
18:29	PilzAdam	and diamonds are a tiny bit faster and last longer than mese tools
18:30	VanessaE	as long as mese pick is still faster than steel, I don't see any reason it can't be a little slower than a diamond one
18:30	ShadowNinja	well diamond should be faster than it is
18:30	PilzAdam	faster would be instant dig
18:30	hmmmm	heh, imagine how ridiculous things would be with efficiency 5
18:31	hmmmm	like netherrack
18:31	PilzAdam	btw: pushed
18:31	VanessaE	ever used an admin pick? :-)
18:31	VanessaE	THAT is fast. :)\
18:31	ShadowNinja	is it realisticaly possible to use only diamond picks or would you run out before you were able to get a new one?
18:32	ShadowNinja	infinitytools pick, I use that on my server
18:32	hmmmm	no clue.. people should be able to do grid mining for diamond and mese
18:32	VanessaE	imho, using a diamond pick should be just a hair less than sustainable
18:32	VanessaE	force the player to not waste it on cutting stone]
18:33	ShadowNinja	I think it should be more, that way you have diamonds for things other than just making annother pick
18:33	hmmmm	indeed
18:33	celeron55	hmm, let me see
18:33	VanessaE	(as in for every say 25 diamonds you collect, you have to use 30 to keep making diamond picks)
18:34	hmmmm	yeah but vanessa, that's one thing that bugged me
18:34	hmmmm	that sort of unsustainability should force you to go deeper where the ores are more common
18:34	VanessaE	p-erhaps
18:34	VanessaE	--
18:35	hmmmm	because otherwise there's no real point to mining
18:35	VanessaE	when I last mined for any length of time, mese was common enough to be self-sustaining + build up a nice cache of the stuff
18:35	celeron55	the diamond pick will have 810 uses mining default:stone, and by mining 2 of those, you see 6 new nodes that could be diamond
18:36	celeron55	and there are 3 diamonds in 14**3 nodes
18:36	celeron55	and you need 3 for a pick
18:36	celeron55	it means that no, it's not worth of grinding
18:37	celeron55	by a factor of 3.4
18:37	hmmmm	yeah exactly
18:37	hmmmm	but again, it might also force people to come up with smarter ways to grind
18:37	hmmmm	like i said, grid mining
18:38	celeron55	grid mining?
18:38	hmmmm	you mine in a grid of 3-high slots spaced by 2 or 3 blocks apart
18:38	celeron55	hmm, actually, i wonder how much that can be optimized by knowing that diamonds are in clusters... it probably means that the gain is effectively multiplied by the cluster size
18:39	celeron55	that'd get it to 3.4/3=1.13
18:39	hmmmm	that way you'd be able to tell if there's a cluster of ores and dig the rest out, and if not, you'd save a whole bunch of time and pick durability by not mining those
18:39	celeron55	by the other stuff that you get, it'd keep it worthy of doing
18:39	celeron55	just barely
18:40	celeron55	i guess it's one way to balance it, altough not sure if it's a good way 8)
18:40	hmmmm	diamonds might have to be a tad more common.. it's too early to tell though
18:40	PilzAdam	random: I took a diamond axe and mined straight down; 30 secs and I found mese
18:40	hmmmm	we'll see, based on how many angry people there are on the forums and irc
18:41	celeron55	hmmmm: good approach
18:41	celeron55	if there aren't enough, it must be made rarer!
18:41	hmmmm	it's funny how angry people get over a completely free game that's just a game
18:41	celeron55	a game is good only if it makes a portion of people angry 8)))
18:43	PilzAdam	ok, lets make celeron55 angry
18:43	hmmmm	completely unrelated
18:43	hmmmm	what if the NodeIdMapping was sent independent of the blocks
18:44	hmmmm	NameIdMapping rather
18:44	celeron55	sent? i don't think it's sent
18:45	hmmmm	ahh it's not
18:45	hmmmm	that's only for disk
18:45	hmmmm	smart move
18:49	hmmmm	but anyway i think we should focus more on loading from disk times
18:50	hmmmm	IIRC it takes 30ms to load a block from disk, and the map generation takes about 70ms total... for a chunk... which is 25 blocks
18:57	PilzAdam	I think mese is too common
18:58	PilzAdam	so either we make it more rare or we make the tools slower
18:58	PilzAdam	VanessaE?
18:58	VanessaE	more rare I think
18:58	VanessaE	no one likes slow tools
18:59	VanessaE	but not too much moreso; didn't you already do that with that last commit anyway?
18:59	PilzAdam	its still too common
18:59	VanessaE	hrm
18:59	PilzAdam	and I only modified the bottom layer
18:59	VanessaE	even at 36A^3?
18:59	VanessaE	er 36^3
18:59	PilzAdam	Im not talking about the blocks
19:01	ShadowNinja	hmmmm: will ores registered with register_ore() become more common as you go downward?
19:01	PilzAdam	no, we dropped this idea
19:01	VanessaE	oh you meant the ore
19:01	VanessaE	um
19:01	ShadowNinja	:-(
19:02	VanessaE	how do the settings in the new ore method compare to the old default.generate_ore() call?
19:02	VanessaE	about the same as then?
19:02	PilzAdam	ShadowNinja, it sounds nice in theory, but in practice you dont notice it
19:02	hmmmm	shadowninja, nope
19:02	PilzAdam	VanessaE, yes, the same
19:03	ShadowNinja	I noticed it in 0.3, lots of mese at -30900
19:03	VanessaE	ok, I would say in that case, make ore cluster together closer, increase that setting by maybe 1, and make the overall concentration about half as dense per chunk as it currently is
19:03	VanessaE	(that setting = the cluster size)
19:03	PilzAdam	ShadowNinja, currently we use different calls of register_ore() to make it more common deeper in the ground
19:03	VanessaE	so you get larger, denser clusters, but there are far fewer than there were before
19:04	ShadowNinja	And players have gond down that far in "survival", I have personaly been to -6000
19:04	VanessaE	ShadowNinja: lowest I've dug in survival is about 7k
19:04	celeron55	hmmmm: i just ran minetest for a while in callgrind and opened this in kcachegrind
19:05	ShadowNinja	I know, I think there should be an int for the increase, that way if you don't like it you can just set it to 0
19:06	celeron55	i've done this before too, but 1) this is very messy to browse and 2) it's very hard to try to gather any meaningful data from this
19:06	RealBadAngel	about last error reports. i suggest capping entities both on acceleration and speed. and reverting entity being on the loose
19:07	PilzAdam	VanessaE, currently the upper layer has 3 ores/clust with a scarcity of 16^3 and ranges from -64 to -127
19:07	RealBadAngel	terminal velocity and max acc value
19:07		Calinou joined #minetest-dev
19:07	jojoa1997\|Tablet	entities should stay near where they spawned unless players lead them away
19:07	PilzAdam	VanessaE, Id say increase scarcity to 18^3 and make it down to -257
19:08	PilzAdam	and for the deeper layer, increase scarcity to 14^3
19:08	RealBadAngel	celeron55, you have noticed z value being 50k but missed x being 209k
19:09	celeron55	RealBadAngel: you don't need to limit acceleration if you limit speed
19:09	RealBadAngel	true
19:09	celeron55	also, there isn't need to limit anything anywhere else than inside collisionMoveSimple
19:10	PilzAdam	what about calling the speed limit the "speed of light"?
19:10	RealBadAngel	terminal velocity just
19:10	hmmmm	ShadowNinja, if you want it, here http://pastebin.com/z6pUy2FR
19:10	VanessaE	[03-27 15:08] <VanessaE> so lets cap it at 500 m/sec - which is fucking insane speeds, but acceptable for a video game
19:10	VanessaE	[03-27 15:08] <VanessaE> so that would be...\
19:10	VanessaE	[03-27 15:09] <VanessaE> 51 seconds.
19:10	VanessaE	[03-27 15:10] <VanessaE> to reach 500 m/sec if you start at 0 and fall at 9.81 m/s/s
19:10	VanessaE	there, to end that discussion before it starts L()
19:10	VanessaE	:)
19:11	VanessaE	(in reality, we already know a human can exceed 340 m/sec if specially equipped)
19:11	RealBadAngel	VanessaE, we are not really talkin bout physics now
19:11	VanessaE	RealBadAngel: of course not, but we're talking about acceleration and speed.
19:12	VanessaE	both of which should be capped
19:12	RealBadAngel	we are talkin bout entity bein unatended and out of control, thus having weird pos and speeds
19:12	celeron55	there is no need to cap acceleration; stop saying it
19:12	RealBadAngel	because server has not responded
19:13	hmmmm	hah, reminds me of Big Rigs
19:13	hmmmm	no acceleration cap on reverse
19:13	Calinou	g_bugrigs 1
19:13	celeron55	hmmmm: correction: speed cap
19:13	RealBadAngel	i had same problem with tubed items
19:13	celeron55	acceleration is a static value in it, = capped
19:14	celeron55	but that is irrelevant in this case
19:14	RealBadAngel	i capped them with last_valid_position and demanded them to report their next
19:14	hmmmm	i meant speed cap actually
19:15	RealBadAngel	if they fail to report, theyre rolled back to last_valid
19:21	celeron55	shit crap fuck, i can't connect with a regular client to a minetest server running under callgrind because "Server: peer_id=2: failed to emerge player"
19:21	celeron55	this is 100% reproducable and predictable
19:22	celeron55	why the hell
19:23	celeron55	...i get this without callgrind too
19:23	celeron55	this isn't even fair
19:24		proller joined #minetest-dev
19:24	celeron55	what?!
19:25	celeron55	now it works
19:25	celeron55	fully
19:25	VanessaE	bbl
19:36	celeron55	hmmmm: i think you might have wrong presuppositions about the need for a voxelmanipulator for lua
19:36	celeron55	hmm
19:37	celeron55	actually no, this wasn't what i thought this was
19:38		sapier joined #minetest-dev
19:38	RealBadAngel	celeron55, lately i supposed that improper destructors was the cause of bad alloc, made some patches, restarted game for like 20 times, then exited to OS without any error
19:39		troller joined #minetest-dev
19:39	RealBadAngel	then to test reverted the changes, it behaved same
19:39	RealBadAngel	next run with pathces it crashed 2nd try
19:39	sapier	:-) good test ... not quite surprising as this is exactly what gcc warning predicts
19:40	celeron55	well, i guess the standard allows it to make your computer monitor pull out a gun and shoot you
19:41	celeron55	hmmmm should seriosuly fix those missing virtual destructors
19:41	celeron55	seriously*
19:41	sapier	I doubt this is a standard problem c/c++ allows almost everything and expects programmer to have enough knowledge to decide what's best for her/him
19:42	celeron55	they're likely to not cause anything else than memory leaks but that's too bad already
19:43	sapier	I've almost completed scriptapi rewrite I'd like to give an early preview prior fixing all formal issues what's best way to get comments on it?
19:43	celeron55	anyways, i can tell some interesting things from this callgrind's output of a short run of a server with a player walking around making the map generate and load
19:43	RealBadAngel	like what?
19:43	celeron55	for example, the vast main CPU hog of the default ABMs is l_find_node_near
19:44	celeron55	which sounds like leafdecay to me
19:44	sapier	not only ... most modders use this function for spawning abms too
19:44		rarkenin_ joined #minetest-dev
19:45	RealBadAngel	abms are heavily lagged lately
19:45	celeron55	and the ABMs take, mainly because of that, most half of the server environment step time
19:45	celeron55	-half
19:45	sapier	true that's why most of moders try to avoid abms and do things like that at on_generate
19:46	celeron55	i can also tell why l_find_node_near is so heavy: CNodeDefManager::getIds() takes the vast majority of it's execution time
19:46	celeron55	the result of commonly used inputs to that could probably be cached
19:47	RealBadAngel	first of all abms are a single thread. and theyre able to stop whole system
19:47	sapier	maybe using some sort of hash table
19:47	celeron55	the problem here are not ABMs
19:47	celeron55	stop misinterpreting me!
19:47	celeron55	ABM is just what calls this, it is not the problem
19:47	sapier	it's the way abms are done right now
19:47	celeron55	...
19:48	celeron55	okay, i'll just say nothing as you don't understand anyway
19:48		iqualfragile joined #minetest-dev
19:48	RealBadAngel	try to explain
19:48	celeron55	i already explained; it's your turn now
19:48	celeron55	your turn to understand
19:48	sapier	is my interpretation correct celeron?
19:48	celeron55	NO.
19:49	RealBadAngel	i said that a few months ago. with a single ABM call, a loop i can take over whole ABMS system
19:49	RealBadAngel	and stop it
19:50	RealBadAngel	now your turn to say it is ok
19:50	hmmmm	lua just blows, not really news
19:50	sapier	it's not exactly lua
19:50	celeron55	now hmmmm is completely wrong too :D
19:50	celeron55	this is hilarious and i can't even think of any words that would make RealBadAngel or sapier any more right
19:51	hmmmm	what are we talking about?
19:51	celeron55	i'll go to sauna now, maybe you'll get even more wrong while i'm away ->
19:51	RealBadAngel	hehehe
19:51	hmmmm	that's just so wrong
19:52	sapier	hmm ... he said abms call somethin internal which is taking very much time ... is that true or am I already wrong with this?
19:52	RealBadAngel	abms are made one by one, in a line
19:53	RealBadAngel	if one is takin too much time rest of them waits
19:53	hmmmm	hash_node_position? what's that
19:53	sapier	yes but if it's taking to much time on a single core machine you can't do anything against this
19:53	RealBadAngel	thus if you decide to make infinite loop in abm
19:54	RealBadAngel	you took over the matrix
19:54	hmmmm	realbadangel, same with any mod
19:54	hmmmm	that's just the way it is
19:54	RealBadAngel	no more abms
19:54	sapier	and this will happen at any case in any lua mod
19:54	hmmmm	the only find_node_near that i see is the one that gets ignore netx to tree
19:54	hmmmm	and it's not in a loop at all
19:55	hmmmm	so maybe find_node_near is really that crappy
19:55	hmmmm	let's see
19:55	RealBadAngel	we are talkin here bout both complex and badly written mods
19:55	RealBadAngel	effect is the same
19:55	hmmmm	? we're talking about leaf decay
19:56	RealBadAngel	after 10 seconds waiting for stargate abm teleport code you are able to hear 10 teleporting sounds in a row
19:56	sapier	CNodeDefManager::getIds() is this done for every node?
19:56	hmmmm	yes? where
19:57	RealBadAngel	hmmmm, and leaf decay is also known killer
19:59	hmmmm	hrmm i wouldn't expect it to be slow
19:59	hmmmm	it doesn't seem like it really does that much
19:59	hmmmm	woah woah okay
19:59	hmmmm	nevermind
19:59	hmmmm	getFacePositions looks bad
20:00	hmmmm	perhaps the use of a manualmapvoxelmanipulator is warranted here
20:00	sapier	lol
20:01	sapier	we're looking at any nodes around of nodes within range
20:01	hmmmm	well i'm not really worrying about this at the moment
20:01	sapier	thus checking many nodes multiple times?
20:02	sapier	first we check them for radius 1
20:02	sapier	then for radios 2
20:02	sapier	then for 3 ...
20:02	RealBadAngel	i do have my own problem, rotating vertices for texturing seems to rotate the lightnin too :(
20:02	hmmmm	heh
20:02	hmmmm	that's a minor cosmetic problem
20:02	hmmmm	i wouldn't worry too much about that
20:02	RealBadAngel	but have to be solved
20:03	sapier	we should remove the for loop from find node near and it'l be lot faster
20:04	sapier	hmm wait ... seem's I've misinterpreted the code again
20:05	hmmmm	i feel like we can just redo that entire loop and it'd be way better
20:06	RealBadAngel	why cant we have this actualised on action?
20:06	sapier	I'm not quite sure why it's that bad ... it's looking for first node starting from in to out ... this is quite obvious from real life but maybe is worst case scenario considering memory allocation
20:07	RealBadAngel	like gravel in the air when touched fallin
20:07	hmmmm	who cares if it's slow, right guys?
20:07	hmmmm	just buy a faster computer!
20:07	RealBadAngel	hehe
20:08	RealBadAngel	i say dont care bout leaves. until trunk is cut?
20:08	hmmmm	i'd say so too but that's hard
20:08	sapier	it's not leaves only
20:09	RealBadAngel	but a case
20:09	RealBadAngel	dont do, until youre forced to do so
20:10	RealBadAngel	instead of doing it all the time and consuming power
20:10	sapier	still celeron told the getIds is consuming most of cpu power so the loop isn't worst thing in there
20:11	sapier	here we go: for(u16 id=0; id<=MAX_CONTENT; id++)
20:12	sapier	max content is 0xfff ... this loop is done completely everytime
20:12	hmmmm	now let's see here
20:12	hmmmm	what does getIds actually do
20:13	hmmmm	returns a set (why a set?) of IDs given some names?
20:13	celeron55	<-
20:13	hmmmm	oh, given a group name
20:13	celeron55	the only thing i said and the only thing i know is that getIds takes most of time when default ABMs are run
20:13	RealBadAngel	so fast back from a sauna?? water was cold or what? ;)
20:14	hmmmm	doesn't matter.. looping 65000 times is ridiculous and is POOR QUALITY CODE.
20:14	hmmmm	this needs to be fixed.
20:14	sapier	we don't have found the solution yet go away ;-)
20:14	hmmmm	obviously the solution is to find an actual solution to matching IDs with a group name
20:14	hmmmm	not just searching everything
20:15	hmmmm	what's the problem with having a std::map of group names-> vector of IDs?
20:15	sapier	it's only 4096 times but bad enough
20:15	celeron55	hmmmm: no problem, it just hasn't been done
20:16	celeron55	this is really again a proof-of-concept implementation that was forgotten
20:17	hmmmm	have you no shame of releasing this code to the general public!?
20:17	PilzAdam	we should have a "proof-of-concept implementation" somewhere
20:17	PilzAdam	+list
20:17	celeron55	hmmmm: not really; i'd have some shame if i asked money for it 8)
20:17	sapier	I have already a complete list: minetest ;-)))
20:17	celeron55	:D
20:17	hmmmm	you're right. the buildaworld guys are right too. scrap it and start all over
20:18	hmmmm	soooooo
20:18	hmmmm	who wants to take care of this
20:18	* RealBadAngel	takes care of lights....
20:19	sapier	:) I doubt anyone of us (except celeron) has already done enough mistakes to avoid them on rewrite :-) so we'll do them when trying to rewrite it
20:19	celeron55	anyways, maybe i'll finish the implementation
20:19	celeron55	i wonder what else i'll find by using this glorious tool of callgrind
20:20	hmmmm	why the framerate is lower than it was in older versions
20:20	celeron55	i gave you two suggestions when you last asked
20:20	hmmmm	i disabled shaders and disabled fancy leaves, that didn't give me all my fps back
20:20	hmmmm	what were they?
20:20	RealBadAngel	hold on, last 2-3 weeks ive noticed im hittin 60fps again
20:20	celeron55	hmmmm: shaders and non-d3d
20:21	celeron55	i don't know if you run windows on that
20:21	hmmmm	i don't
20:21	celeron55	then i have no idea and you'll have to find yourself
20:21	hmmmm	i used to think that FPS didn't make too big of a difference above 30, but it really does
20:21	RealBadAngel	6d facedir alone freed some of the memory and speeded up the game
20:21	hmmmm	the game just doesn't feel as smooth
20:22	celeron55	RealBadAngel: only if you run mods that define craploads of nodes otherwise (and use HD textures)
20:22	hmmmm	i was trying out some older 0.4-dev versions to see if i can match up with the map generator of my first world (i couldn't), and i just couldn't believe how much faster the graphics were
20:22	celeron55	for default, it doesn't make any difference
20:22	RealBadAngel	400mb in case of vanessae server
20:23	RealBadAngel	celeron55, you shall said "not developed worlds"
20:24	hmmmm	huh
20:24	RealBadAngel	any facedired node tripled the textures before
20:24	RealBadAngel	because of transform usage
20:26	RealBadAngel	if with as you said, suprisingly small code i earned 400mb for a server, it was worthy, dont you think so?
20:26	celeron55	hmmmm: anyway, if you find the change that matters for you, it'll probably matter for some others too
20:26	hmmmm	eh yeah
20:27	celeron55	graphics performance is a bitch though
20:27	celeron55	different computers have grossly different speeds for doing different things
20:27	celeron55	eg. some might be extremely slow on texture changes
20:27		iqualfragile joined #minetest-dev
20:27	celeron55	some might choke on mesh uploads to the GPU
20:27	celeron55	and so on
20:27	RealBadAngel	for me 6d facedir effected circa +10% fps gain
20:27	hmmmm	yeah but you use huge textures
20:27	RealBadAngel	128x
20:27	hmmmm	ya huge
20:28	RealBadAngel	but cmon
20:28	RealBadAngel	its 4 yrs old box
20:28	RealBadAngel	nothin modern
20:29	RealBadAngel	1,8ghz dual core with 4gb
20:29	hmmmm	i couldn't get minetest to run hardly at all on my laptop when i tried it out last week
20:30	RealBadAngel	btw i noticed great speedup lately
20:30	hmmmm	what i wonder is why people didn't catch regressions before they got old
20:30	RealBadAngel	i moved all the ore generation to new function
20:30	RealBadAngel	even not my own ores
20:30	RealBadAngel	and starting new world takes a second now
20:31	celeron55	hmmmm: i guess such regressions aren't considerable enough
20:32	celeron55	but seriously, it would be interesting to know what did that to your laptop
20:32	hmmmm	i need to stop dicking around and get to work on this
20:32	RealBadAngel	hmmm the regressions in our case are imho because we do more, want more and expecting more
20:33	RealBadAngel	thus engine gives up
20:33	hmmmm	the thing is
20:33	hmmmm	compiling takes so much longer for my laptop
20:33	hmmmm	i can't cross compile since that's using older libraries than my desktop and it probably won't link right
20:35	Exio	what about a chroot? or -static?
20:35	Exio	(yes, very good answers)
20:35	RealBadAngel	may i offtopic a bit?
20:36	RealBadAngel	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/game.cpp#L846
20:37	RealBadAngel	can we rename those files and make local music?
20:38	hmmmm	exio, eh..
20:38	hmmmm	ahh i need to try 0.3.x again on my laptop to see what the actual performance is
20:38	hmmmm	i forgot about how i upgraded to 310 drivers on my laptop
20:38	hmmmm	which caused a regression for half life 2
20:40	RealBadAngel	hmmmm, have u seen the code?
20:41	hmmmm	yeah, i don't really have an opinion on it
20:41	RealBadAngel	i say time for main menu music score at least :)
20:41	hmmmm	i don't need background music because i have a music player, so does everybody else
20:41	hmmmm	and it does the job way better
20:42	celeron55	i don't think we can decide on any music to distribute officially with the engine (not even with the distributed games)
20:42	celeron55	so it's kind of a problem
20:42	RealBadAngel	well, technic ambience tracks are allowed for us to use
20:43	RealBadAngel	we got the permission
20:45	RealBadAngel	http://realbadangel.pl/technicambience.zip
20:46	VanessaE	back.
20:46	RealBadAngel	wb
20:52	celeron55	i actually compiled and booted 0.3.3 now
20:52	celeron55	there is something in this that makes it awesome
20:52	celeron55	i don't fully understand what
20:52	Exio	the mapgen!
20:52	* Exio	looks at hmmmm
20:54	RealBadAngel	celeron55, its nostalgy. done and gone ;)
20:55	celeron55	no
20:55	celeron55	i see this as a different kind of game
20:55	sapier	https://github.com/sapier/minetest/commit/32a76041cf34cd650b06a1613abf085f9ccf1e19 this is a complete rewrite of scriptapi integration ... it's an early version not ready for merge as comments file headers, filenames etc aren't ready but it should already be functional equivalent to current scriptapi
20:55	RealBadAngel	celeron55, ofc. project is evolving
20:55	celeron55	this is kind of what you would expect from a game, but is missing a few details; 0.4 is kind of... not
20:56	sapier	maybe someone is interested in commenting and giving hints what needs to be fixed ... main goal was to reduce header linkage and separate scriptapi lua parts from core
20:57	RealBadAngel	celeron55, you propably seen mc indev and later
20:57	celeron55	0.4 has it's place in this world, but i'm constatly feeling more so that 0.3 has to be revived as a fork
20:57	celeron55	it has value on it's own
20:58		sapier1 joined #minetest-dev
20:58	PilzAdam	it would be better to focus on one game instead of forking it
20:58	RealBadAngel	celeron55, if it is lightweight maybe fork it on other systems like portables
20:58	celeron55	it's just like how i use MATE as the desktop environment at work - a gnome 2 fork
20:58	celeron55	some probably said gnome 2 should die and everybody should focus on 3
20:59	celeron55	but at the end, it wasn't a good idea and the world is happier with both
20:59	RealBadAngel	see, im Might and Magic player
20:59	RealBadAngel	its 6th out there
20:59	RealBadAngel	and im still playin the 3rd only
21:00	hmmmm	but what's different about 0.3.x?
21:00	RealBadAngel	which was out more than 15yrs ago
21:00	PilzAdam	hmmmm, the textures
21:00	hmmmm	is it really just the mapgen?
21:00	hmmmm	there are so many technical improvements with 0.4.x
21:00	hmmmm	from a rational standpoint you'd have to be crazy to like 0.3.x better
21:00	sapier1	:-)
21:00	RealBadAngel	it is lack of contens
21:01	RealBadAngel	thus it is not very demanding
21:01	celeron55	0.3 is minimalistic
21:01	celeron55	and it has a mapgen that makes very good use of it's small amount of node types
21:01	RealBadAngel	and then could be moved in such state to android or whatever
21:01	sapier1	everything has use for someone
21:02	hmmmm	well let's bring back mapgen v5
21:02	celeron55	and it has mobs that make some sense and work
21:02	Exio	add sapier1's path finding to upstream
21:02	RealBadAngel	5??? gimme biomes :)
21:02	RealBadAngel	i want SEVEN
21:03	hmmmm	mmm
21:03	hmmmm	see, that's the thing
21:03	hmmmm	i want to work on something new
21:03	celeron55	have you tried booting up 0.3? it takes 0 time units because the mapgen works on a block-by-block basis and it doesn't need to check what content the server uses, it's always the same
21:03	hmmmm	but we also have to keep going back and fixing all these other bits of nonsense
21:03		iqualfragile1 joined #minetest-dev
21:04	sapier1	of course simple things can be done fast but complex things can be done way better than current implementation too ;-)
21:04	RealBadAngel	any code can be done better
21:05	RealBadAngel	point is its easier to make better your own code
21:05	RealBadAngel	because you understand it fully from the very start
21:06	sapier1	that's the difficulty with open source you have to take everything with you in order to get good code ... and of course learn from those who know better than yourself
21:08	celeron55	okay so
21:08	celeron55	i seriously want to get v5 running on 0.4
21:09	celeron55	having done singlenode, i'll probably do that
21:10	hmmmm	you know what, i was wrong about 0.4.x being graphically slower
21:10	hmmmm	i just tried 0.3.x and i get about the same FPS
21:10	hmmmm	and oddly enough i have the same HORRIBLE HORRIBLE stuttering problems
21:10	celeron55	what hardware is that on
21:10	hmmmm	but this is on my laptop, so i'd say the problem is probably because it's cpu bound
21:11	hmmmm	amd sempron SI-42, geforce 8200g m
21:11	hmmmm	3gb of ram
21:12	Exio	i still don't get how hmmmm computers work
21:12	RealBadAngel	btw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjHNPzv9sGY
21:12	RealBadAngel	this song we can freely use for minetest
21:12	RealBadAngel	and others make by Skaven
21:13		ShadowNinja joined #minetest-dev
21:13	celeron55	minecraft tends to stutter like a piece of smelly shit too on some hardware; for example on this i3 integrated GPU it's completely unplayable at least on windows
21:14	celeron55	minetest is better than minecraft on windows on this, and on linux minetest works pretty much flawlessly
21:15	celeron55	i think it happens at when new meshes are drawn the first time
21:15	hmmmm	nah
21:15	hmmmm	the stuttering i'm talking about happens all the time
21:15	hmmmm	you can most notice it when you turn fast mode off, fly mode on, and just slowly go through the air
21:16	celeron55	well, that's the kind of stuttering i see - it happens all the time because a mesh is generated for each received mapblock
21:16	hmmmm	and then at times there's a big stutter where it'd stop completely for about 2/3rds of a second it must seem like
21:16	hmmmm	and these blocks are already loaded might i add
21:16	celeron55	well that's way worse than i've seen
21:16	VanessaE	hmmmm: is preload visual turned on?
21:17	VanessaE	actually ignore that, probably not related
21:17	VanessaE	(only time I see those huge fps dropouts is when the engine stops to render a new block)
21:18	VanessaE	(e.g. load a new texture that hasn't been used yet)
21:18	RealBadAngel	folks, what do you think of makin this tune Main Menu score? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjHNPzv9sGY ?
21:23	celeron55	this might be the least horrible music suggestion i have seen
21:24	VanessaE	"least horrible"? you know, there are words on the other side of the center such as "best" :p-)
21:24	VanessaE	:-)
21:24	hmmmm	the negativity is just what makes celeron.... celeron.
21:24	RealBadAngel	this is piece of music made by one of the best musicians for PC demoscene ever
21:25	RealBadAngel	walking and living legend
21:25	hmmmm	i can go for this
21:25	VanessaE	I'll agree with it
21:25	VanessaE	if we choose any tune, that one is good.
21:25	RealBadAngel	google and youtube for Skaven/Fairlight
21:26	VanessaE	(of course, RBA knows I am slightly biased ;) )
21:26	RealBadAngel	Skaven has granted us rights to use any of his tracks that wasnt used in commercial projects
21:28		ShadowNinja joined #minetest-dev
21:30	celeron55	i think i'm ok with trying, but there are questions
21:30	celeron55	where do we put the... track?
21:31	RealBadAngel	hold on
21:31	celeron55	like, it's obvious it should be in windows build .zips (or is it?) but like otherwise
21:33	RealBadAngel	celeron55, https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/game.cpp#L846
21:33	celeron55	yes and?
21:33	celeron55	does everyone rip it from youtube themselves
21:33	RealBadAngel	ofc not
21:34	RealBadAngel	i do have normalized oggs
21:34	celeron55	do we make a "minetest music" repo?
21:34	VanessaE	just as long as I can turn the music off easily of course
21:34	RealBadAngel	so add second slider
21:35	RealBadAngel	and treat music as another instance
21:35	Exio	http://www.futurecrew.com/skaven/index2.html
21:36	RealBadAngel	Exio, Skaven is a demoscene coder like me, aged also 40
21:37	RealBadAngel	we had a long talk bout past and what we are doing today
21:38	RealBadAngel	when i asked him for the tracks he said no problem, just dont use those i sold to commercial gamas
21:38	Exio	hehe
21:40	RealBadAngel	celeron55, this piece of code is a good basis to create pack of default music scores with preset names
21:40	RealBadAngel	distributed along with the game
21:42	celeron55	multiple tracks sucks to distribute though
21:42	RealBadAngel	or overwritten in /sounds/all
21:42	PilzAdam	I dont like this music
21:42	celeron55	the package size gets immediately multipled many times
21:43	RealBadAngel	cmon that is not a problem nowadays
21:43	VanessaE	storage and bandwidth are cheap
21:43	sapier1	bandwidth isn't cheap!!!
21:43	RealBadAngel	i can dowload 900kbs
21:44	VanessaE	I can pull down 2.5 MB/sec
21:44	RealBadAngel	and it costs me like 15$ per month
21:44	celeron55	but sometimes you just happen to be behind a wlan that only pulls 80kB/s - then downloading some 15 megabyte packages isn't really something you want to do
21:44	VanessaE	costs me about US $42/mo
21:44	celeron55	or multiple tens of MB
21:44	sapier1	and I'm at 200 may and I don't have any chance to get more because it's not available where I live and most likely won't be available anytime soon
21:45	VanessaE	so make it a separate "music pack"
21:45	VanessaE	as mintest_game is separate from the engine
21:45	Exio	[18:43:32] <VanessaE> storage and bandwidth are cheap
21:45	RealBadAngel	celeron55, first of all we are makin a GAME
21:45	RealBadAngel	not just a bunch of c++ code lines
21:46	ShadowNinja	A separate package sounds like the best idea
21:46	Exio	here, when my 200mb/mo ends it starts using like 1 USD / hour for a basic inet,
21:46	celeron55	good and well selected music (without some audiophile quality) is always worth the size
21:46	celeron55	but not some random tracks
21:46	Exio	my 3g, the best connection what i can have, and really, if i can download less stuff, better
21:46	celeron55	(not implying anything)
21:46	PilzAdam	why not tell people to get a music player?
21:47	sapier1	recently german telekom announced to limit "flatrates" to 75 gb ... most likely any other provider will follow soon ... seems time of cheap internet is over
21:47	RealBadAngel	/giveme technic:music_plyaer 1
21:47	RealBadAngel	:P
21:47	PilzAdam	why do we need everything in Minetest?
21:48	PilzAdam	they can run their music player in the background
21:48	RealBadAngel	because we are not DEAF? ;)
21:48	PilzAdam	and everyone picks the music they like
21:48	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, games, titles are coming with tracks
21:49	PilzAdam	but most music I heard in FOSS games is horrible
21:49	RealBadAngel	game without content, music is just..... naked?
21:49	celeron55	naked games are sometimes good
21:50	RealBadAngel	good naked is nice chick
21:50	RealBadAngel	but not a game :)
21:50	Exio	i don't see the why not if it is optional at "some point"
21:50	celeron55	i do think minetest isn't really fitting to any model that somebody would say a good game is like
21:50	PilzAdam	how is the progress of the web browser inside minetest?
21:51	PilzAdam	it will be optional too!
21:51	Exio	there is already code for doing the stuff, for what i understand
21:51	RealBadAngel	dont mix the ideas Adam
21:52	RealBadAngel	celeron55, btw streamin audio is also on its way, somebod else is doin this, seen in forums
21:53	celeron55	currently minetest looks a bit like doing that to technology what minecraft did to gameplay, and doing that to gameplay what minecraft did to technology 8)
21:53	ShadowNinja	PilzAdam: hmm, merge the lua file download pull, convert html to formspecs and presto, basic web browser
21:53	sapier1	lol "convert html to formspecs"
21:53	celeron55	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presto_%28layout_engine%29
21:54	celeron55	so then we'll overtake that name as opera is dumping it :-----D
21:54	RealBadAngel	celeron55, as long we going forward it doenst make a differnce, does it?
21:54	celeron55	RealBadAngel: how do you know you're going forward or not?
21:55	RealBadAngel	makin your home nicer, with better stuff?
21:56	RealBadAngel	and each time having fun of testing new piece from community fellows
21:56	celeron55	okay so maybe we need to add a game called "dollhouse" which will contain the music and such
21:56	RealBadAngel	that is movin forward
21:57	PilzAdam	my wishlist: minetest should be 1) a web server 2) a music player 3) a text editor 4) a web browser 5) a c++ IDE 6) a compiler
21:57	RealBadAngel	lol
21:57	sapier1	you forgot the allknowing coffee making ai
21:57	celeron55	seriously, i'm having hard time seeing where we're going and why that is a good goal
21:58	celeron55	you can "go forward" for years and end up with something nobody has any use for
21:58	celeron55	s/we are/RBA is/
21:59	RealBadAngel	1) possible 2) already done) 3) ouch) 4) again?? 5) theres Z80 CPM with c++ 6) and compiler also
21:59	sapier	maybe we shoud start a forum thread where everyone writes where she/he sees minetest in 1y 2y 5y?
21:59	celeron55	sapier: is that a joke? :D it'll be full of completely differing things
22:00	celeron55	and there has probably been one already
22:00	RealBadAngel	like every wishlist
22:00	Exio	PilzAdam: replace minetest with emacs, then :P
22:00	PilzAdam	celeron55, what about this? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues?labels=bug&page=1&state=open
22:01	sapier	:-) I expected this to be completely different, but maybe knowing in wich direction each of the core developers is working might explain some things ;-)
22:01	celeron55	but in all seriousness, minetest 0.4 is quite good at allowing people build things
22:02	celeron55	so i guess that has to be part of what will be aimed for
22:02	celeron55	as far as other things go, that is somewhat unclear
22:03	sapier	imho we need to fixup locking within minetest in order to gain (more) benefit of multicore cpus
22:04	celeron55	but really, we should have a goal or philosophy or something to which compare everything against
22:04	sapier	I fully support this
22:05	celeron55	i think that has formed to be "make a thing that kind of continues the path set by minecraft alpha, additionally allowing people to extend and modify it as easily as possible"
22:06	sapier	good idea ... and how do we want to reach this?
22:06	PilzAdam	by waiting for someone to code it?
22:07	PilzAdam	-? +!
22:07	sapier	I'm more interested in the philosophy minetest core wil follow
22:07	celeron55	it's interesting that roughly everyone who has played MC alpha knows what that means
22:07	celeron55	it's quite a strong thing
22:08	sapier	maybe this is because everyone experienced mc alpha in a different way?
22:08	RealBadAngel	celeron55, only imagination is the limit. thats the ultimate goal of a sanbox
22:09	PilzAdam	RealBadAngel, no, you have to set yourself limits, otherwise its boring
22:09	celeron55	but really, i wonder whether we need more than that pseudo-quote
22:09	ShadowNinja	hmmmm: I heard that you accidentally fixed black leaves on trees, if that is so what did you fix it in?
22:09	RealBadAngel	settin no limits is even harder
22:10	RealBadAngel	you have to imagine what other player would do
22:11	hmmmm	ShadowNinja, i didn't, i thought i did but i was wrong
22:11	celeron55	then i wonder, how does this fit with music
22:11	PilzAdam	celeron55, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIOiV4d1SVI
22:11	celeron55	it doesn't really
22:11	Exio	i don't see the why not if the code is already here and working
22:12	RealBadAngel	same as with /textures/all
22:12	RealBadAngel	new forums theme Sounds Packs
22:13	celeron55	PilzAdam: 9:32 is epic 8)
22:13	RealBadAngel	and thats all.
22:14	RealBadAngel	some may like defaults, some will insert metallica there or limp bizkit
22:15	RealBadAngel	or (apaga satanas!) justin bieber
22:16	PilzAdam	http://dev.minetest.net/Changelog#0.4.5_.E2.86.92_.3F <- the "Bug fixes" list is too small...
22:17	celeron55	i really think there are two kinds of people within this community: the ones who have come around to build stuff with the modding capabilities, and the ones who wish to have a "minecraft alpha with a twist"
22:18	celeron55	but i don't know how much they should be separated from each other
22:18	celeron55	their goals are imcompatible with each other to some extent
22:18	celeron55	incompatible*
22:19		Taoki joined #minetest-dev
22:19	Exio	what about being of "both"?
22:20	celeron55	maybe you can answer that question
22:23	celeron55	bleh, i need to sleep
22:24	celeron55	however, that's the overall challenge here
22:24	celeron55	it tends to reflect in everything that happens here
22:28	celeron55	so that is an explanation to why i'm having hard time to decide on the music thing or the particular track!
22:28	celeron55	oh, then there is a third thing
22:30	celeron55	it is that if everything is made configurable and people are always expected to set up stuff in their own way, the community will always be about tinkerers who mainly develop the game for themselves and don't really aim for any praticularly finished end result
22:31	RealBadAngel	celeron55, dont forget its sanbox
22:31	celeron55	i think we should leave room for a coherent game to emerge from all this that would be just that, a game, without being aimed to tinkerers like us, if somebody wishes to make one
22:31	RealBadAngel	players are supposed to do so
22:32	hmmmm	my feelings on the topic are basically, "here's a complete game, but look, it's very configurable, so if you don't like something, you can fix it yourself"
22:32	RealBadAngel	abililty means it can fit anybody
22:33	Exio	as i said, i don't see the point for a why not if it already coded (the "hard" work if we can say it in someway)
22:33	Exio	just saying from what i have understand
22:33	PilzAdam	my thoughts: "heres a complete game and its not configureable; go to the forum and install other games if you dont like it"
22:33	RealBadAngel	even developers have different tastes, so what about players...
22:34	RealBadAngel	PilzAdam, no way
22:34	PilzAdam	(as for minetest_game, common, whatever that is)
22:34	RealBadAngel	not for a sandbox one
22:34	RealBadAngel	it is all abot the FREEDOM
22:35	celeron55	for one thing, i basically hate how little "brand" the individual games inside minetest are able to have
22:35	celeron55	but i don't see a good way of changing it, and in all cases it doesn't even make sense to change it
22:36	RealBadAngel	celeron55, we will unite this thingies soon thx to portals (or whatever Jeija called them)
22:36	celeron55	...eh what?
22:36	RealBadAngel	once you are in game, connnected somwhere you will be able to go elsewhere
22:36	RealBadAngel	to another world
22:37	RealBadAngel	with different rules
22:37	celeron55	wtf, how is that related to anything i said
22:37	RealBadAngel	"individuals" and "brands"
22:38	RealBadAngel	now imagine switchin brands in no time
22:38	RealBadAngel	just by walkin
22:39	celeron55	that is exactly the problem
22:39	hmmmm	by "in no time", you mean "the time it takes to download all the media"?
22:39	hmmmm	ugh we need the TCP fast
22:39	RealBadAngel	yeah
22:40	hmmmm	and no stupid "let's embed a webserver into minetest because we're too incompetent to get TCP working"
22:40	hmmmm	i still can't get over that suggestion
22:40	hmmmm	who came up with that idea again?
22:40	RealBadAngel	i was sayin somethin like this but lets say i dont remember ;()
22:40	VanessaE	hmmmm: other way around, you mean "embed a wget equivalent"
22:41	VanessaE	and i don't remember whose idea it was
22:41	VanessaE	but you're right, TCP is needed.
22:41	celeron55	it's only equally crappy as minetest having libcurl for downloading media from HTTP servers
22:41	hmmmm	no, they wanted to run a webserver to host the textures and whatever
22:42	RealBadAngel	ok ok, it was me. shoot me
22:42	VanessaE	hmmmm: well it was my suggestion that if we have a wget equivalent, that we should have put a minimal webserver at the other end -- but I also assert that neither should be needed at all
22:42	VanessaE	instead, it's wget at one end, and a third-party separate webserver at the other end
22:42	VanessaE	which is fucking stupid
22:42	celeron55	eh, i have said the same thing sometimes too
22:42		iqualfragile joined #minetest-dev
22:43	celeron55	TCP is basically waiting to happen, but nobody has the balls to try 8)
22:43	hmmmm	..or they didn't work on it
22:43	VanessaE	celeron55: well you kinda talked people out of it by saying how horrible your TCp implementation is :)
22:44	celeron55	it was a hack to try to get it quickly done as a start, it isn't anywhere near what a real implementation should be
22:44	hmmmm	i know that if i were working on it, i would definitely get it to happen, but i'd have pause everything else i'm doing at the moment
22:44	hmmmm	have to pause*
22:44	RealBadAngel	there are no tcp libraries out there?
22:44	celeron55	yes there is, it's called posix sockets
22:45	celeron55	8)
22:45	celeron55	you don't need more than that unless you want more problems
22:45	hmmmm	i wish i could make myself multithreaded
22:46	VanessaE	while true; do launch.instance(hmmmmZ) & done
22:46	VanessaE	shit;.
22:46	celeron55	hmmmm: what are you in the middle of now, then? didn't you just get ores done?
22:46	hmmmm	instead, i think i waste a lot of time switching to do different tasks
22:47	hmmmm	yeah, I was doing something on my own that I wanted to get done real soon
22:47	hmmmm	i found an old minecraft classic map file of my first ever map and i wanted to ressurect it
22:47	celeron55	->
22:47	hmmmm	->
22:48	hmmmm	-->
22:48	VanessaE	<--
22:48	hmmmm	-^-
22:49	RealBadAngel	lol
22:49	VanessaE	heh
22:49	sapier	>>>><<<<
22:50	RealBadAngel	btw, when do we want 0.4.6 to happen?
22:50	hmmmm	the plan was right after pilzadam adds the new ores
22:50	PilzAdam	the new swords dont do any damage currently
22:50	VanessaE	yesterday
22:50	PilzAdam	and they wont be until the new damage system is done
22:51	RealBadAngel	im holding techinic changes for it
22:51	VanessaE	why do we need a new damage system now? everything worked fine before, if unideal
22:51	RealBadAngel	i realized what c55 meant with rolling releases
22:51	hmmmm	it was explained a couple days ago
22:51	PilzAdam	if you want to do the fleshy groups, go ahead
22:51	PilzAdam	I wont
22:51	hmmmm	so basically we're waiting on celeron
22:52	PilzAdam	VanessaE, they are marked as TODO, relatively easy to find
22:52	VanessaE	youmissed my point
22:52	VanessaE	I mean why do we need it first
22:52	VanessaE	what happened to the idea of releasing something that at least works as well as it always did, and improving it later?
22:53	PilzAdam	because I dont want to release swords that dont cause damage
22:53	VanessaE	then don't add the swords.
22:53	hmmmm	nnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooooooo
22:54	RealBadAngel	what for swords now if there are no mobs yet???
22:54	PilzAdam	also the picks, axes and shovels dont have fleshy group defined yet
22:54	PilzAdam	so leave them out too?
22:54	hmmmm	PvP
22:54	VanessaE	facepalm
22:54	PilzAdam	swords are currently only good for PVP and digging leaves
22:54	VanessaE	and that's all they can be used for anyway
22:55	VanessaE	RBA is right - we have no build-in MOBs..what does it matter right now?
22:55	VanessaE	built*
22:55	RealBadAngel	so fix the stupid system that you have to turn aroun, lose focus to hit again
22:55	RealBadAngel	without it, dont even mention swords again
22:56	PilzAdam	someone can make the fleshy groups
22:59	sapier	is anyone interested in reviewing the scriptapi fixes before I issue a pull request?
22:59	VanessaE	can we just agree not to overcomplicate this?
23:00	VanessaE	all I know is if I pick up an evil sword (gloopblocks), it takes maybe two to four strikes of that sword to frag a player or destroy a peaceful NPC
23:00	VanessaE	where is the problem here?
23:03	PilzAdam	the problem is that the current system is messed up and I dont want to add random numbers in there
23:03	PilzAdam	so you basically have to test everything in-game
23:03	PilzAdam	wich is a PITA
23:03	VanessaE	then. don't. add. swords.
23:03	VanessaE	stop trying to change how shit works
23:04	PilzAdam	but all tools cause damage
23:04	VanessaE	people already understand that an axe or a pick doesn't work as a weapon
23:04	PilzAdam	(thx to Calinou)
23:04		kaeza joined #minetest-dev
23:04	VanessaE	and they already understand how to use what does work as a weapon
23:06	PilzAdam	can someone ask Calinou to do it when hes arround? he has done all the other fleshy groups too
23:07	ShadowNinja	Can someone please pull this, it has even been rebased for easy merging: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/421
23:07	PilzAdam	hmmmm wanted to look at it IIRC
23:08	PilzAdam	I tested it after rebasing and it works fine for me
23:08	hmmmm	what? it was fine after the syntax got fixed and what not
23:08	hmmmm	err code style
23:09	PilzAdam	ok, Ill merge it then
23:12	RealBadAngel	http://realbadangel.pl/technic_track8.ogg
23:17	RealBadAngel	http://realbadangel.pl/technic_track5.ogg
23:25		loggingbot_ joined #minetest-dev
23:25		Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/
23:25		jojoa1997\|Tablet joined #minetest-dev
23:26	Taoki	I can't find out what's happening
23:33	Taoki	PilzAdam: Seems to work in the Build game. minetest_game won't start any more though... says it can't load init.lua
23:34	Taoki	And I figured out why it only worked for console... I was running the system package not the GIT. So it's a problem in latest hit
23:34	Taoki	***git
23:35	Taoki	01:33:01: ERROR[main]: Server: Failed to load and run /windows/D/Small games/Minetest/Minetest_GIT/bin/../games/minetest_game/mods/default/init.lua
23:35	Taoki	01:33:01: ERROR[main]: ModError: Failed to load and run /windows/D/Small games/Minetest/Minetest_GIT/bin/../games/minetest_game/mods/default/init.lua
23:35	Taoki	And yes that is the correct path
23:36	Taoki	Erm... init.lua is actually gone from there o.o
23:36	VanessaE	because it's part of common now.
23:36	VanessaE	https://github.com/minetest/common
23:37	Taoki	ok. So minetest_game is gone, and it's called common now?
23:37	VanessaE	no
23:37	VanessaE	it just uses common
23:37	VanessaE	if you use minetest_game, you need common also.
23:37	Taoki	ok. Why that error then?
23:37	Taoki	I got it now
23:37	Taoki	So it should work
23:37	ShadowNinja	Taoki: delete all empty mod folders in minetest_game, git doesn't remove them
23:39	Taoki	Oh thanks, that fixed it
23:40	Taoki	I don't understand the latest changes as well, but glad to have it working again
23:40	Taoki	Like why minetest_game was split up like that
23:54		sapier left #minetest-dev
23:59		kaeza joined #minetest-dev
23:59	kaeza	Taoki, because of the split to games/survival and games/build, having common eases updating (you don't have to update some common mod more than once)

← Previous day | Channels | #minetest-dev index | Today | Next day → | Google Search | Plaintext