Time Nick Message 03:14 hmmmm i articulated my thoughts better here http://dev.minetest.net/Mapgen_V7 06:45 celeron55 hmmmm: if you modulate noise like that, you don't actually need to look at the end result to know how it was modulated 06:46 celeron55 just look at the results of the noises that were used for modulation 06:46 celeron55 (in addition to maybe looking the overall ground level in the result or so - but it doesn't need to be analyzed more than that) 06:49 celeron55 for example. to know if there is much variance in the result (to determine mountains), you just look how large the persistence and scale are and whether the offset is something that makes it higher than average 06:49 celeron55 the opposite determines plains or ocean 06:51 hmmmm yes, but that single bit of noise doesn't fully determine the characteristics 06:51 celeron55 then there is the problem of how to allocate "biome space" for the biomes that mods provide - but it won't be such a problem, and can be somewhat arbitrary 06:52 hmmmm the base noise and modulation noise might cancel eachother out 06:52 celeron55 hmm, well, that can be found out by trying to implement it 06:54 celeron55 the biome space will be N-dimensional, where dimensions are heat, humidity and mountainness or maybe ground height 06:54 celeron55 or something lik ethat 06:54 celeron55 e<<1 06:55 celeron55 mod-provided biomes could insert points in that space, and the biome in some point would be the closest point in there 06:55 celeron55 makes sense? 06:56 celeron55 that'll behave like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voronoi_diagram 07:30 hmmmm it makes sense, but now mod-provided biomes necessarily must modify all other biomes 07:30 hmmmm adding one screws up others 07:33 hmmmm also, biomes specified by heat and humidity are more cosmetic changes, certain nodes or things that spawn there, which could be applied to any variation of mountains or plains or whatever. 07:33 hmmmm originally i guess what we wanted was what minecraft has, but i think it's sort of dumb 07:34 hmmmm they have snowhills, deserthills, 100 different types of hills and so on 07:34 hmmmm really, the 'hill' detail is more like a different variable 07:35 hmmmm i was almost getting to this with the original biome implementation i had, where desert, jungle, forest, snow were all flags 08:09 prestidigitator Greetings all. 11:41 BlockMen hi everyone 11:44 BlockMen I wanted ask weather it is ok when I make a pull request for 2 graphic files( menuheader.png and menusplash.png) 11:44 BlockMen the result would be look like this: https://dl.dropbox.com/s/mfcz2wy63yxvm2c/minetest_costum_menu.png 11:54 PilzAdam sure 11:56 PilzAdam what is this little gap at the right? 12:01 BlockMen nice. and i'm not sure, have to check that 12:10 BlockMen ok. there was missing 1px at the right 14:03 RealBadAngel hi 14:04 RealBadAngel i dont know what others think but i dont like gfx by BlockMen 15:07 khonkhortisan The logo is fine, but the ground is a different projection than the clouds 15:09 PilzAdam we should have a poll or something for the officical minetest logo 15:15 hmmmm ehhhhhh... 15:15 hmmmm i'd rather not change things just for the sake of change 15:16 hmmmm that's how it really looks to me, some guy thinks his own art for the menu is awesome, so he comes in here and tells us about a pull request 15:17 hmmmm it's not like we're obliged to comply with everybodys' requests; 15:17 hmmmm a pull request is more like, "hey guys, i think i have something really cool, maybe you would like to merge it with upstream" 15:19 PilzAdam hmmmm, http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2013-03-24#i_2953816 <- have you coded anything for this yet? 15:20 hmmmm oh, no.... 15:20 hmmmm let's talk about details 15:21 hmmmm if you were to write one linear-ramped ore distribution, you'd need to have it stop somewhere 15:21 hmmmm so it'd actually take two 15:21 hmmmm the increasing part, and then the part where the amount is constant after that point 15:22 hmmmm so you'd have height_min = 0, height_max = -1024, and the amount of ore per chunk would increase at a constant rate 15:22 hmmmm then from -1024 to -31000 you have another ore defined with no ramp that has the maximum ore distribution from the prior 15:22 hmmmm yea? no? 15:22 PilzAdam maybe merge it so there is only one ore definition? 15:23 hmmmm that would be gross 15:23 PilzAdam like: amount = {{height_min=-1024, height_max=0, type="linear"}, {height_min..., type="constant"}} 15:25 hmmmm it'd require a lot of re-coding to do that 15:27 PilzAdam then maybe do it your way 15:28 PilzAdam how do we define how much it increases? with clust_scarcity_min and _max? 15:28 hmmmm i don't know 15:29 hmmmm i'm thinking about how you had it and it sounds more appealing the more i think about it 15:30 hmmmm also, keep in mind that you'll only see this increase in whole chunks 15:32 PilzAdam I think linear is enough, no need for quadratic,cubic or logarithmic 15:32 hmmmm well isn't linear sort of boring 15:32 PilzAdam no 15:33 PilzAdam its not like everyone sees every ore; people will just notice: "The deeper I get the more ores I find" 15:34 hmmmm nclusters = volume / (clust_scarcity / ((height_max - height_min) / height_max)); 15:34 hmmmm hrm i need to multiply by nmax.Y too, woops 15:35 hmmmm i'll do it later 15:35 hmmmm working on something different at the moment 15:35 PilzAdam maybe give Lua the ability to define a function(height) to return the scarcity 15:35 hmmmm getting too complicated 17:20 BlockMen hmmmm:"that's how it really looks to me, some guy thinks his own art for the menu is awesome, so he comes in here and tells us about a pull request" 17:20 BlockMen actually i "came in here" to prevent the impression, that I'm thinking my art is so "awesome". Thats why I asked first wheather it would be ok to make a pull request for that. 17:21 BlockMen I just wanted to support the project with something I can do, because I'm not a genius at C++... 17:21 hmmmm oh... sorry, i didn't mean to put it that way 17:22 hmmmm thank you for the contribution, it's just that it's not definite that your art will make it into the final product 17:22 hmmmm people have to decide on this 17:22 * Jordach votes for it 17:23 BlockMen its ok. and i know that it is not definite 17:23 BlockMen but honestly i don't know who does when decide what 17:24 BlockMen so this thing i thought has the dev-team to decide 17:25 BlockMen so should i make a competition on forum instead? 17:27 hmmmm sounds good 17:27 hmmmm and now that i look at it again, i do like the header, but not so much the footer 17:28 hmmmm i know people are going to complain about how it looks similar to minecraft though. 17:32 BlockMen ok, then i'm going to put a new topic on forum bout this later 17:56 PilzAdam IMO we should remove the fleshy group from tools (so they cant be used as a weapon) 17:57 hmmmm nonsense.. tools are weapons 17:58 hmmmm you've never seen anybody get hurt when hit with a shovel? 17:59 PilzAdam why do we have swords then? 17:59 hmmmm to hurt more 18:08 PilzAdam how fast should the diamond pick be? 18:09 hmmmm i'd say the same speed as the mese pick 18:09 PilzAdam currently I have 1 click destroy of stone 18:09 hmmmm insta-mine? 18:09 PilzAdam (wich is 0.3) 18:09 hmmmm we should reserve that for enchanted tools 18:10 PilzAdam I am rewriting every tool to be able to place diamond on top of it 18:10 hmmmm hmm? 18:10 hmmmm you mean you're making a diamond variant of the four tools 18:10 PilzAdam s/every tool/all digging times 18:10 hmmmm just make it the same as mese 18:11 hmmmm the reason why you'd want a diamond tool is because it'll last longer than mese 18:11 PilzAdam i'd say the same speed as the mese pick <- also leave mese pick at the same speed? 18:11 hmmmm yeah 18:11 hmmmm diamond has to be rarer than mese though 18:11 PilzAdam Im doing the tools first 18:11 PilzAdam if you finished your thing then I can make the mapgen 18:12 hmmmm (i guess the reason why i want it this way is because i feel like mese tools don't last long enough, given that they're the best tools) 18:12 hmmmm mmm 18:12 hmmmm alright, i'll get on tat 18:12 hmmmm that 18:13 PilzAdam I also put in mese axe, shovel and sword 18:13 hmmmm i think celeron's intention with only having a mese pick was that the mese pick was the one tool to rule all of them and any other wasn't necessary 18:14 hmmmm celeron doesn't like the whole mese crystal idea and he probably won't like that either, he seems to be quite picky about mese for some reason... 18:14 hmmmm it's just a yellow block with a nonsensical name 18:14 hmmmm at least we're giving it some substance 18:15 hmmmm i'm sure the rest of the minetest players will like other mese gear 18:17 PilzAdam IMO the mese pick should be a little bit slower than the diamond one 18:17 hmmmm well okay 18:17 Exio for me, not 18:18 PilzAdam only 0.1 sec. 18:18 hmmmm hmm, quick question for you guys 18:19 hmmmm for mapgen v7 we're going to have to add portals of some kind, it's necessary for the hell/sky realms 18:19 hmmmm do we want to use RBA's stargates, or copy minecraft's portals? 18:19 PilzAdam maybe think of something else? 18:23 hmmmm what else can we do? 18:24 PilzAdam maybe dig into nether? 18:24 rubenwardy|away how about something that looks like a stone henge? 18:24 rubenwardy|away as a portal 18:24 hmmmm bahahahahahah, dig into the nether, the nether is going to be at -4096 18:24 PilzAdam there are already shafts to -31000 18:25 hmmmm ruben, maybe, i like that idea, i think that portals should be more grand than they are in minecraft 18:25 hmmmm maybe the stonehenge portal should be for teleporting to the sky 18:26 rubenwardy|away :D 18:26 rubenwardy|away or a star trek style portal... 18:28 RealBadAngel my idea was 3x3 for local ones and 4x4 for server travel (like intergalactical travel) 18:29 hmmmm intergalactic travel needed much bigger stargates, as in season 10 18:31 BlockMen how about sky like that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw1movXKfsk#t=122 18:33 RealBadAngel who said mt world from orbit looks like earth? ;) 18:35 BlockMen ok..then a big blue/green cube :) 18:38 RealBadAngel about diamonds: 18:38 RealBadAngel minetest.register_ore({ 18:38 RealBadAngel ore_type = "scatter", 18:38 RealBadAngel ore = "technic:mineral_diamond", 18:38 RealBadAngel wherein = "default:stone", 18:38 RealBadAngel clust_scarcity = 11*11*11, 18:38 BlockMen moon would also be cool...that is maybe better for gameplay than space 18:38 RealBadAngel clust_num_ores = 4, 18:38 RealBadAngel clust_size = 3, 18:38 RealBadAngel height_min = -31000, 18:38 RealBadAngel height_max = -450, 18:38 RealBadAngel }) 18:38 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, pastebin 18:38 BlockMen with moonstone or something similar 18:39 RealBadAngel ooops. sorry that was supposed to copy pastebins link, not the content 18:40 khonkhortisan there you are - it appears shading turns with the facedir 18:41 RealBadAngel i saw the pictures, what were you using to move the nodes? 18:41 khonkhortisan add_node 18:42 khonkhortisan I'm loading the whole cube into a table, rotating the facedir into another table, then doing add_node right over the previous cube. 18:42 RealBadAngel i will take a look at it, but that should not happen, i saw the lighting code and it should stay intact 18:43 RealBadAngel are cubes regular nodes or nodeboxes? 18:43 khonkhortisan //fixlight didn't help 18:44 khonkhortisan they're nodes 18:44 Exio hmmmm: i'd say "portals" crafted with expensive materials and so 18:44 RealBadAngel okay, i will take closer look at it tommorow 18:46 khonkhortisan okay thanks 18:47 RealBadAngel please upload the code somwhere 18:47 RealBadAngel so i can test it 18:48 khonkhortisan pushed https://github.com/khonkhortisan/rubiks 18:48 celeron55_ PilzAdam: if you're rewriting some tool capabilities, let me review them first; i'm, not very comfortable with people's understanding of how it's supposed to be balaned 18:48 celeron55_ balanced* 18:48 celeron55_ -, 18:48 khonkhortisan or not, I don't see my new commits 18:48 * VanessaE peeks in 18:49 PilzAdam celeron55_, why do swords have the group choppy and why is wood snappy? 18:49 khonkhortisan there it is https://github.com/khonkhortisan/rubiks/tree/6dfacedir 18:49 celeron55_ swords have choppy because you actually can chop wood with a heavy sword just as with an axe; about snappy i don't know 18:50 PilzAdam Id like to remove choppy from swords and fleshy from all other tools 18:50 celeron55_ PilzAdam: what i am concerned is how you use the digging time values vs. maxlevel 18:50 celeron55_ not much else 18:52 RealBadAngel khonkhortisan, ok, i will use it for testing 18:52 VanessaE guys, a question: 18:52 VanessaE [03-26 14:48] minecraft now supports and texture moving so now some things wont work 18:52 VanessaE [03-26 14:50] you mean animated ores 18:52 VanessaE [03-26 14:50] like an occasional glint of light on silver or something 18:52 VanessaE [03-26 14:51] yeah 18:52 VanessaE Opinions on this? 18:52 celeron55_ PilzAdam: i don't think removing fleshy from eg. axes is wise 18:52 celeron55_ it's very counterintuitive if you can't attack something with an axe 18:53 celeron55_ VanessaE: what does that even mean 18:54 sfan5 celeron55_: every texture can be 16x(16*frames) and it will be animated automatically 18:54 VanessaE celeron55_: to expand on his question, imagine, say, silver ore that occasionally shines - like a lens flare that flicks by now and then 18:55 celeron55_ where is the original source for this? 18:55 celeron55_ a release notice? something? 18:56 VanessaE a quick google search shows a number of people doing this in MC now. 18:56 PilzAdam its very hard to create the group ratings for fleshy, because the current damage system of minetest sucks 18:56 PilzAdam there are only players with fleshy=3 and snappy=2 18:56 PilzAdam nothing else 18:57 celeron55_ the first part of making it better is explaining how it sucks 18:57 rubenwardy Minetest, with a dayz style health system = awesome 18:57 PilzAdam what sucks is that there is no armor that would modify the players groups 18:58 PilzAdam then there are 2 groups, fleshy and snappy 18:58 celeron55_ that isn't really related to the actual system 18:59 PilzAdam players should have only the group fleshy 18:59 celeron55_ i am not saying that the system is good - i am saying that it hasn't even been put properly into use yet, so nobody can know 18:59 rubenwardy It would be great, if there was a damage multiplier. 18:59 rubenwardy IE: armour can set it to 0.5, and stuff like hunger, drugs and illness can set it to 5 18:59 celeron55_ PilzAdam: not that i know if they should or should not have only it, but... why? 19:00 PilzAdam because when it comes to player damage, you just want to define the damage 19:00 celeron55_ PilzAdam: you are just throwing single statements in the air; do you have some kind of a coherent vision or goal here that would possibly explain all that you are going to make? 19:01 PilzAdam like full_punch_interval/damage 19:01 PilzAdam why would you need 2 groups for that? 19:01 PilzAdam it would be much easier, if you just define the damage of a tool 19:02 PilzAdam what complicates it currently, is that the player has 2 groups 19:02 celeron55_ it could make deeper tactics and multidimensional usefulness of tools possible 19:03 celeron55_ but you're free to remove the other and see how it works 19:03 PilzAdam its hardcoded somehwere in the engine 19:03 VanessaE celeron55_: the animated textures were added to MC on the 13th, version 1.5.0 19:05 celeron55_ VanessaE: hmm, apparently 19:06 celeron55_ looks pretty much like how it has been in MT since last summer :P 19:07 VanessaE yup 19:07 VanessaE except that we have to explicitly enable animations in a given node. 19:07 celeron55_ PilzAdam: hmm, that's true 19:09 celeron55_ PilzAdam: it's in content_sao.cpp; in two occasions - one for the default for lua entities and one for players 19:09 celeron55_ it's probably wise to change the default to the simplest possible and let games set them more complicatedly if they want 19:10 PilzAdam the simplest possible is fleshy=3 19:11 PilzAdam also swords should wear out when punching entities 19:12 celeron55_ actually you probably want to set it to fleshy=2 19:13 PilzAdam why? 19:14 celeron55_ it gives one worth of room to both directions 19:14 celeron55_ i don't know how balancing it will work out, but i think that would be a better starting point 19:15 PilzAdam people are already complaining that its 3, because it allows only 2 possible armor improvements 19:15 celeron55_ well that is exactly how the system can be misunderstood 19:16 celeron55_ you set level to something higher to get a general improvement like that 19:16 khonkhortisan RealBadAngel, more info: every face rotates the shading, not just the bottom 19:17 celeron55_ the player should probably have level=1 or level=2 by default so that there can be much easier targets than the player 19:18 celeron55_ it's now 0 which is probably bad 19:18 PilzAdam then make it 2, because there are tougher enemies than the player 19:18 celeron55_ level goes to an other direction than the others 19:18 celeron55_ higher is tougher 19:18 PilzAdam oh, sorry, I read it wrong 19:18 PilzAdam I read fleshy instead of level 19:20 celeron55_ let me make some examples here... maybe it makes things a bit clearer 19:21 celeron55_ so let's assume the player is by default fleshy=2,level=1 19:23 celeron55_ and let's assume a... pig is fleshy=3,level=0 and, say, a bear is fleshy=1,level=2 19:25 celeron55_ and some... ehm... rock monster is cracky=2,level=1 19:26 celeron55_ let's decide to create a sword that can just kill a bear 19:27 celeron55_ it happens that the steel sword from default is like that; it has fleshy={times={[1]=2.00, [2]=0.80, [3]=0.40}, uses=10, maxlevel=2},fleshy={times={[1]=2.00, [2]=0.80, [3]=0.40}, uses=10, maxlevel=2} 19:27 celeron55_ ...crappy middle button 19:29 celeron55_ so if you hit it maximally with that, it will... actually make 0.5 nodes worth of damage, which is 0 19:29 celeron55_ so actually this can't kill it 19:30 celeron55_ actually 0.8/2.0=0.4 19:32 celeron55_ hmm, setting this up is kind of odd 19:32 celeron55_ so first of all, we never want to set a times value lower than full_punch_interval, because that's utterly useless 19:32 celeron55_ i mean, higher than 19:32 Calinou lower than allows some "error margin", it's fine that way :P 19:33 PilzAdam hmm, setting this up is kind of odd <- that was what I was talking about 19:33 PilzAdam *is 19:34 celeron55_ i'm going to do something about this, but i'll go through this 19:34 celeron55_ so let's keep full_punch_interval=0.8, and set fleshy={times={[1]=0.5, [2]=0.33, [3]=0.2}, uses=10, maxlevel=2} 19:34 celeron55_ actually no 19:35 celeron55_ fleshy={times={[1]=0.4, [2]=0.2, [3]=0.1}, uses=10, maxlevel=2} this will make some sense 19:36 celeron55_ so now you go hit the bear and it will make 2 damage every time it's perfectly done 19:36 celeron55_ so now we shall test this against the other guys 19:37 Calinou bear? 19:37 PilzAdam https://github.com/PilzAdam/common/commit/8fb22daaca73f1ac38ef0b23e6bdcc905f3bdb48 19:37 PilzAdam what I have currently for the digging times 19:38 celeron55_ in pvp, this will deal 0.8/0.2 = 4 nodes of damage to a unarmoured player 19:38 celeron55_ which makes some sense 19:39 celeron55_ against the pig, it will do 0.8/0.1*2=16 (*2 because at a level difference of >=2, it will start multiplying like this) 19:39 PilzAdam umm... isnt it 1/(full_punch_interval*damage)? 19:40 celeron55_ wat? 19:41 hmmmm hey celeron, why do you serialize all of the parameters together, and not whole MapNodes? did you figure that it compresses better with each of the fields combined like that? 19:41 PilzAdam if you have the same level 19:41 celeron55_ hmmmm: it will compress a lot better 19:41 hmmmm yeah figured as much. 19:41 celeron55_ PilzAdam: what is "it", and what is damage? 19:42 celeron55_ that doesn't make any sense to me 19:42 PilzAdam oops, damage = group rating 19:42 celeron55_ group rating? 19:42 celeron55_ more like digging time, and even then it's completely wrong 19:43 celeron55_ where did you pull that from :P 19:43 PilzAdam my head :-( 19:43 Calinou "diamond_in_ground.png" should be "default_mineral_diamond.png"... 19:43 PilzAdam Calinou, it is 19:43 Calinou ah ok 19:43 PilzAdam I just forgot to delete diamond_in_ground.png 19:44 hmmmm you know, minecraft doesn't have silver 19:44 hmmmm i wonder if we need it? 19:44 celeron55_ so continued; agains the stone monster it will obviously make zero damage (assuming it doesn't have cracky defined in addition to the beforementioned fleshy) 19:44 VanessaE yes 19:44 VanessaE we have a standard 5-ore set. use 'em all 19:44 VanessaE there's no reason not to anyway 19:45 PilzAdam we already have gold without any use 19:45 VanessaE so? 19:45 hmmmm you can make decorative gold blocks 19:45 VanessaE does dirt have any real use? 19:45 Calinou +1 for silver 19:45 VanessaE or gravel? 19:45 PilzAdam do you want silver tools? 19:45 Calinou yeah 19:45 hmmmm ehh 19:46 VanessaE I don't care about extra tools, I care about using those minerals to make other stuff 19:46 Calinou faster than iron but less durability? 19:46 VanessaE I use silver + copper to make brass in homedecor, for example. 19:46 Calinou maybe give them a drawback: very long times to mine mese and such 19:46 hmmmm perhaps silver can have some sort of use with its antibacterial properties 19:46 PilzAdam silver apples instead of golden apples? 19:46 VanessaE hmmmm: a special weapon to defeat slines? 19:47 Calinou we used to have iron apples, why not put 'em back 19:47 hmmmm perhaps 19:47 * Calinou never saw one though 19:47 PilzAdam maybe only a silver sword 19:47 hmmmm yeah, silver sword 19:47 celeron55_ so, now if the player wants to protect himself from this sword in pvp, he wears up some armor that raises his level by one and lowers fleshy to 1, which makes him equal to the bear in terms of damage dealt... but there is no way anything could now take 1hp per proper hit from this sword... only 0 or 2 or higher 8) 19:48 hmmmm heh 19:48 hmmmm some mods can let you make a silver chloride powder that you can drop above cloud level and it'd cause rain 19:48 celeron55_ this is actually quite complicated 19:48 VanessaE hmmmm: nice idea! 19:49 hmmmm anyway the original usage for gold in minecraft was for currency 19:49 celeron55_ i mean, improving this 19:49 hmmmm there was an intended currency system.. also golden apples but that's a crappy idea because gold is quite rare 19:49 celeron55_ if we're to make completely different definitions for weapons, then coupling weapon damage and node damage from eg. explosions is hard 19:49 celeron55_ currently it's, in threory, trivial to do 19:49 celeron55_ theory* 19:50 hmmmm i feel like the damage system is overcomplicated, if i were implementing it i would've done something completely different 19:50 hmmmm but it's here now and it's not going to change 19:50 celeron55_ it's probably going to change; but it's still very unclear to me how exactly 19:51 Calinou it's not that hard to understand once you've understood it 19:51 hmmmm i'm staying out of it 19:51 Calinou full punch interval = the max "damage power" you can have 19:51 Calinou digging times = how much a damage point costs in "damage power" 19:51 celeron55_ Calinou: it isn't that hard to understand, but even when i fully understand it, i can't make the results that i want using it 19:52 PilzAdam celeron55_, maybe make everything the same level and invert the fleshy group (1 = weakest), so its easier to define the armor groups 19:52 celeron55_ PilzAdam: no, that isn't good 19:52 VanessaE hmmmm: ok, so... in addition to ore->lump->ingot->block, we have gold for currency, silver for that special sword, how about copper for anything conductive, tin for alloying with other stuff (e.g. to make bronze), mithril as another "magical" ore like mese, but perhaps more "powerful" 19:52 VanessaE (given how rare it is) 19:52 celeron55_ the way largest problem here is the roughness of the HP scale 19:52 hmmmm well hold on 19:53 hmmmm both gold and silver have higher conductance than copper 19:53 celeron55_ the first thing i'll modify is making 1 node equal 10hp 19:53 hmmmm you should be able to make conductive materials with any of those three 19:53 celeron55_ that will get us to a good start 19:53 VanessaE yes but how often do so see them used in anything except an IC or a connector? 19:53 hmmmm well it's the user's own stupidity of he uses something rare like gold or silver for a connector 8) 19:54 VanessaE but I'm just thinking of the primary use of each material 19:54 VanessaE heh true 19:54 hmmmm besides, minecraft has gold powered tracks 19:54 VanessaE but I meant in the electronics industry 19:54 celeron55_ then we'll add an alternate way of "digging times" of weapons, by putting something like this instead of "times": damage={[1]=10, [2]=6, [3]=3} 19:54 hmmmm but nobody ever uses it 19:54 PilzAdam VanessaE, dont be too realistic 19:54 VanessaE PilzAdam: nothing wrong with "realistic" if it also makes sense generally. 19:55 celeron55_ and still, "For lower leveled nodes, the use count is multiplied by 3^leveldiff" <- this is made 2^leveldiff 19:55 celeron55_ then we will have a workable damage system 19:56 celeron55_ (i didn't really expect anyone to understand but) ...how does that sound like? 19:56 celeron55_ 8) 19:57 PilzAdam "damage={[1]=10, [2]=6, [3]=3}" why in this order? 19:57 celeron55_ because that is how minetest's digging/damage groups are defined to work 19:57 VanessaE hmmmm: of course I can only speak of my own uses of the various materials... for example in homedecor, the oven uses a copper ingot in its recipe to represent the heating element, a fridge uses tin to vaguely represent the heat exchanger coils, silver and copper combine to make brass, gold and mithril aren't used for anything yet 19:57 celeron55_ that is a thing that simply won't be changed 19:57 PilzAdam celeron55_, I though you wanted {3,6,10} 19:57 PilzAdam *thought 19:58 celeron55_ but really, this actually still sucks 19:58 PilzAdam or is this still digging time? 19:58 celeron55_ it's just the same as how digging time works but it's calculated for the user 19:59 PilzAdam because damage basically is inverted digging time 19:59 celeron55_ this still sucks mainly because in digging time, a level difference of 1 doesn't cause any difference to time (this is good for digging things) 19:59 celeron55_ but it is very bad for this 19:59 celeron55_ or... somewhat bad 20:00 celeron55_ or actually i don't know 20:01 celeron55_ so let's define the requirements for a damage system 20:02 celeron55_ one of the basis to this i guess is that players have 20 health points and other entities are expected to have similar amounts of those 20:03 PilzAdam then there should be different armor groups, were tools cause different damages 20:03 celeron55_ definitely; otherwise it's very monotonous 20:05 celeron55_ so then, there is one question left: how is it handled that a player cannot kill a "boss" monster by using his initial weapons? i guess it's either just a matter of the monster having so many HP that it kills the player before the player kills it, or it has some armor that the player needs to find a special weapon for 20:06 celeron55_ so now, this would imply that just defining how much HP a weapon does with a full hit to each group, and probably keep full_punch_interval around 20:06 celeron55_ +would be enough 20:07 PilzAdam that is what I wanted with inverting fleshy and leave level completly out 20:08 celeron55_ i don't want to invert it; it has to behave like other groups 20:08 celeron55_ any digging groups serve as armor groups too 20:08 PilzAdam but it isnt like other groups 20:08 celeron55_ it is 20:08 PilzAdam I think that is what causes the most problems 20:09 celeron55_ but you can't fix it properly because the only group you can possibly arguably invert is fleshy 20:09 celeron55_ or do we define that all groups are inverted in entities? 20:10 celeron55_ that is actually probably a possibility 20:10 celeron55_ but what would the groups do? 20:12 celeron55_ maybe make them, for entities, be signed numbers with 0 meaning no effect, negative meaning multiplication of damage and positive meaning division of damage... umm 20:12 celeron55_ in some way 20:15 hmmmm group is the exponent? 20:16 hmmmm but that's what leveldiff already does 20:16 hmmmm if leveldiff is negative it divides in effect 20:16 hmmmm vanessae, let's try not to skew the usage for these blocks in any particular way, it's probably best left up to the modmakers to decide. 20:17 VanessaE hmmmm: that's perfectly fair. 20:17 VanessaE I'm just trying to come up with a "reason" to add them, since that seems to be desirous among others here 20:17 hmmmm well how about this: 20:18 hmmmm the reason for gravel, sandstone, brick, etc. is because they're in minecraft 20:18 hmmmm well, gold et al. are in minecraft too, so there's all the justification necessary 20:20 VanessaE *sigh* another bad::alloc crash, same as the previous ones. http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5650397/ 20:20 VanessaE ok, that's fair enough 20:20 VanessaE if MC has them, there's no reason we can't as well 20:20 hmmmm this might be a stl migration problem 20:20 VanessaE (at least for ores, blocks, etc() 20:21 hmmmm obviously, we need to check what code paths taken were modified when a player joins 20:22 hmmmm perhaps you can compile as debug, and we'll know where the exception actually came from? 20:22 VanessaE sure 20:22 VanessaE willdo 20:23 PilzAdam celeron55_, here is what I currently have for the digging times: https://github.com/PilzAdam/common/commit/diamonds 20:23 PilzAdam you wanted to look over them 20:29 celeron55_ PilzAdam: looks quite minor; i won't care until i see or hear it working badly :P 20:30 celeron55_ umm 20:31 celeron55_ how are you going to mine diamond or mese, as they both require diamond or mese picks? 20:31 PilzAdam only the full blocks do 20:31 celeron55_ the ores should probably have level=2 too 20:31 celeron55_ or at least 1 20:32 celeron55_ currently you can just go and dig diamond with a stone pick 20:32 celeron55_ not very good 20:32 PilzAdam no, you cant 20:33 PilzAdam stone pick has only cracky=2 while the ores have cracky=1 20:33 celeron55_ oh 20:33 celeron55_ i see 20:34 VanessaE hmmmm: there, debug build is in place and running normally, under gdb. 20:34 hmmmm grate 20:34 PilzAdam and ores dont have level>0 because you only break the stone arround them 20:34 * VanessaE hands hmmmm kitchen utensil. 20:35 PilzAdam hm, should I make iron and gold cracky=2? 20:36 hmmmm i don't think iron and gold are cracky 20:37 PilzAdam but you shouldnt be able to dig them with a wooden pickaxe 20:41 PilzAdam so there are 2 things missing for diamonds and gold to be merged: hmmmm's register_ore additions and the new damage system 20:41 hmmmm doing other stuff atm 20:42 PilzAdam but I think it could be pushed without the damage system 20:42 PilzAdam just leave the TODO note there 20:43 hmmmm grrrr 20:44 hmmmm i'll do the ore thing, hold on,. 20:49 hmmmm well, later. 20:50 PilzAdam I can wait 21:02 celeron55_ http://dev.minetest.net/Damage_system#Damage_calculation_2 21:02 celeron55_ based on all of my experience, that would/will work 21:05 celeron55_ the implementation is incompatible (as in existing things will do nothing) (otoh, who uses the current tool damage anyway) but can share much of the existing framework; just a few pieces here and there get additions and modifications 21:07 celeron55_ the only arbitrary thing is the percentage interpretation of the group value; it is the only sane way to do it, as groups values are integers and an inexisting group equals zero equals inexisting gtroup 21:07 celeron55_ group* 21:10 celeron55_ now i'm out; i might implement that if nobody else does it, but probably not too soon 21:10 celeron55_ ->Z 21:10 celeron55_ ...terrible typos all the time 21:16 hmmmm hmmm alright, so i can do the ores while dinner is cooking 21:16 hmmmm so i'll have two new fields and change another 21:16 hmmmm clust_scarcity will be gone, clust_scarcity_min and clust_scarcity_max will be added, along with clust_scarcity_ramp_end 21:17 hmmmm i'll find better names that aren't as long later 21:17 PilzAdam sounds good 21:17 hmmmm clust_scarcity_ramp will be a value strictly in between height_min and height_max 21:17 hmmmm the greater clust_scarcity is, the less ore there is 21:18 hmmmm but we want there to be at least clust_scarcity_min throughout the whole thing. 21:18 hmmmm so if y is greater than or equal to clust_scarcity_ramp, the effective scarcity will be clust_scarcity_min 21:19 hmmmm if height_max < y < clust_scarcity_ramp, then the effective scarcity will be clust_scarcity_min + R 21:20 hmmmm R is the scarcity linearily interpolated with the amount it's down 21:21 hmmmm R = min + d * (max - min), where d = [(clust_scarcity_ramp - height_max) - (current_y - height_max)] / (clust_scarcity_ramp - height_max) 21:21 hmmmm that is, the percentage change 21:21 hmmmm of the relative values of those height variables 21:22 hmmmm and for a decreasing ramp, you'd just tack on a negative sign to the whole thing 21:22 hmmmm and i have to properly adjust height_min/height_max for an upward/downward slope 21:35 VanessaE I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to keep clust_scarcity anyway 21:35 VanessaE and just not use it if the other params are not specified 22:00 BlockMen hi everyone 22:02 BlockMen there are one or two questions left about the main menu competion 22:03 BlockMen first: should just the two files be changed like at my try? 22:03 BlockMen and second: should the new coulds be integrated? 22:04 BlockMen and third: just the background or also the menu itself? 22:07 PilzAdam second: yes 22:08 PilzAdam it should work with them enabled and disabled 22:11 BlockMen ok, then question 3 plz, because then question 1 is answered aswell ;) 22:14 PilzAdam we need some suggestions for a redesigned menu 22:16 BlockMen okay. summing up: no, yes, yes 22:17 PilzAdam better: depends on 3; yes; maybe, depends how many people can code suggestions and if they are good 22:22 BlockMen Here are the rules: - The newly integrated dynamic clouds have to be part of design - The design should look good even with disabled menu clouds - You can also include suggestions for a new Menu layout itself 22:22 BlockMen ok that way? 22:23 ShadowNinja sounds good 22:23 PilzAdam + code for the whole menu if you suggest a general redesign 22:23 PilzAdam otherwise nobody will do it 22:24 BlockMen will be added 22:25 PilzAdam and add the node "menu_clouds = false in minetest.conf to disable menuclouds" 22:25 PilzAdam *note 22:26 VanessaE guys, can we PLEASE change the filename spec for screenshots? 22:27 VanessaE to something that makes some semblance of SENSE? 22:34 BlockMen ok, here is the new topic: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=78959 22:35 BlockMen could someone check? 22:35 hmmmm i guess it's fine 22:36 hmmmm i still can't understand why the main menu needs to change 22:36 hmmmm i thought almost everybody likes it? 22:36 VanessaE I'm quite happy with the way the main menu is set up right now 22:36 PilzAdam maybe someone comes up with something brilliant 22:36 PilzAdam you never know... 22:38 BlockMen dont get this wrong, i think that was a great idea with the clouds! 22:39 BlockMen but IMO it just missing something 22:41 BlockMen and thx for support so far btw