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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2013-03-26

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Time Nick Message
03:04 lamefun joined #minetest-dev
03:14 hmmmm i articulated my thoughts better here http://dev.minetest.net/Mapgen_V7
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06:45 celeron55 hmmmm: if you modulate noise like that, you don't actually need to look at the end result to know how it was modulated
06:46 celeron55 just look at the results of the noises that were used for modulation
06:46 celeron55 (in addition to maybe looking the overall ground level in the result or so - but it doesn't need to be analyzed more than that)
06:49 celeron55 for example. to know if there is much variance in the result (to determine mountains), you just look how large the persistence and scale are and whether the offset is something that makes it higher than average
06:49 celeron55 the opposite determines plains or ocean
06:51 hmmmm yes, but that single bit of noise doesn't fully determine the characteristics
06:51 celeron55 then there is the problem of how to allocate "biome space" for the biomes that mods provide - but it won't be such a problem, and can be somewhat arbitrary
06:52 hmmmm the base noise and modulation noise might cancel eachother out
06:52 celeron55 hmm, well, that can be found out by trying to implement it
06:54 celeron55 the biome space will be N-dimensional, where dimensions are heat, humidity and mountainness or maybe ground height
06:54 celeron55 or something lik ethat
06:54 celeron55 e<<1
06:55 celeron55 mod-provided biomes could insert points in that space, and the biome in some point would be the closest point in there
06:55 celeron55 makes sense?
06:56 celeron55 that'll behave like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voronoi_diagram
07:30 hmmmm it makes sense, but now mod-provided biomes necessarily must modify all other biomes
07:30 hmmmm adding one screws up others
07:33 hmmmm also, biomes specified by heat and humidity are more cosmetic changes, certain nodes or things that spawn there, which could be applied to any variation of mountains or plains or whatever.
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07:33 hmmmm originally i guess what we wanted was what minecraft has, but i think it's sort of dumb
07:34 hmmmm they have snowhills, deserthills, 100 different types of hills and so on
07:34 hmmmm really, the 'hill' detail is more like a different variable
07:35 hmmmm i was almost getting to this with the original biome implementation i had, where desert, jungle, forest, snow were all flags
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08:09 prestidigitator Greetings all.
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11:40 BlockMen joined #minetest-dev
11:41 BlockMen hi everyone
11:44 BlockMen I wanted ask weather it is ok when I make a pull request for 2 graphic files( menuheader.png and menusplash.png)
11:44 BlockMen the result would be look like this: https://dl.dropbox.com/s/mfcz2wy63yxvm2c/minetest_costum_menu.png
11:54 PilzAdam sure
11:56 PilzAdam what is this little gap at the right?
12:01 BlockMen nice. and i'm not sure, have to check that
12:10 BlockMen ok. there was missing 1px at the right
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14:03 RealBadAngel hi
14:04 RealBadAngel i dont know what others think but i dont like gfx by BlockMen
14:19 hmmmm joined #minetest-dev
15:07 khonkhortisan The logo is fine, but the ground is a different projection than the clouds
15:09 PilzAdam we should have a poll or something for the officical minetest logo
15:15 hmmmm ehhhhhh...
15:15 hmmmm i'd rather not change things just for the sake of change
15:16 hmmmm that's how it really looks to me, some guy thinks his own art for the menu is awesome, so he comes in here and tells us about a pull request
15:17 hmmmm it's not like we're obliged to comply with everybodys' requests;
15:17 hmmmm a pull request is more like, "hey guys, i think i have something really cool, maybe you would like to merge it with upstream"
15:19 PilzAdam hmmmm, http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2013-03-24#i_2953816 <- have you coded anything for this yet?
15:20 hmmmm oh, no....
15:20 hmmmm let's talk about details
15:21 hmmmm if you were to write one linear-ramped ore distribution, you'd need to have it stop somewhere
15:21 hmmmm so it'd actually take two
15:21 hmmmm the increasing part, and then the part where the amount is constant after that point
15:22 hmmmm so you'd have height_min = 0, height_max = -1024, and the amount of ore per chunk would increase at a constant rate
15:22 hmmmm then from -1024 to -31000 you have another ore defined with no ramp that has the maximum ore distribution from the prior
15:22 hmmmm yea?  no?
15:22 PilzAdam maybe merge it so there is only one ore definition?
15:23 hmmmm that would be gross
15:23 PilzAdam like: amount = {{height_min=-1024, height_max=0, type="linear"}, {height_min..., type="constant"}}
15:25 hmmmm it'd require a lot of re-coding to do that
15:27 PilzAdam then maybe do it your way
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15:28 PilzAdam how do we define how much it increases? with clust_scarcity_min and _max?
15:28 hmmmm i don't know
15:29 hmmmm i'm thinking about how you had it and it sounds more appealing the more i think about it
15:30 hmmmm also, keep in mind that you'll only see this increase in whole chunks
15:32 PilzAdam I think linear is enough, no need for quadratic,cubic or logarithmic
15:32 hmmmm well isn't linear sort of boring
15:32 PilzAdam no
15:33 PilzAdam its not like everyone sees every ore; people will just notice: "The deeper I get the more ores I find"
15:34 hmmmm nclusters = volume / (clust_scarcity / ((height_max - height_min) / height_max));
15:34 hmmmm hrm i need to multiply by nmax.Y too, woops
15:35 hmmmm i'll do it later
15:35 hmmmm working on something different at the moment
15:35 PilzAdam maybe give Lua the ability to define a function(height) to return the scarcity
15:35 hmmmm getting too complicated
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17:20 BlockMen hmmmm:"that's how it really looks to me, some guy thinks his own art for the menu is awesome, so he comes in here and tells us about a pull request"
17:20 BlockMen actually i "came in here" to prevent the impression, that I'm thinking my art is so "awesome". Thats why I asked first wheather it would be ok to make a pull request for that.
17:21 BlockMen I just wanted to support the project with something I can do, because I'm not a genius at C++...
17:21 hmmmm oh... sorry, i didn't mean to put it that way
17:22 hmmmm thank you for the contribution, it's just that it's not definite that your art will make it into the final product
17:22 hmmmm people have to decide on this
17:22 * Jordach votes for it
17:23 BlockMen its ok. and i know that it is not definite
17:23 BlockMen but honestly i don't know who does when decide what
17:24 BlockMen so this thing i thought has the dev-team to decide
17:25 BlockMen so should i make a competition on forum instead?
17:27 hmmmm sounds good
17:27 hmmmm and now that i look at it again, i do like the header, but not so much the footer
17:28 hmmmm i know people are going to complain about how it looks similar to minecraft though.
17:32 BlockMen ok, then i'm going to put a new topic on forum bout this later
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17:56 PilzAdam IMO we should remove the fleshy group from tools (so they cant be used as a weapon)
17:57 hmmmm nonsense.. tools are weapons
17:58 hmmmm you've never seen anybody get hurt when hit with a shovel?
17:59 PilzAdam why do we have swords then?
17:59 hmmmm to hurt more
18:08 PilzAdam how fast should the diamond pick be?
18:09 hmmmm i'd say the same speed as the mese pick
18:09 PilzAdam currently I have 1 click destroy of stone
18:09 hmmmm insta-mine?
18:09 PilzAdam (wich is 0.3)
18:09 hmmmm we should reserve that for enchanted tools
18:10 PilzAdam I am rewriting every tool to be able to place diamond on top of it
18:10 hmmmm hmm?
18:10 hmmmm you mean you're making a diamond variant of the four tools
18:10 PilzAdam s/every tool/all digging times
18:10 hmmmm just make it the same as mese
18:11 hmmmm the reason why you'd want a diamond tool is because it'll last longer than mese
18:11 PilzAdam <hmmmm> i'd say the same speed as the mese pick <- also leave mese pick at the same speed?
18:11 hmmmm yeah
18:11 hmmmm diamond has to be rarer than mese though
18:11 PilzAdam Im doing the tools first
18:11 PilzAdam if you finished your thing then I can make the mapgen
18:12 hmmmm (i guess the reason why i want it this way is because i feel like mese tools don't last long enough, given that they're the best tools)
18:12 hmmmm mmm
18:12 hmmmm alright, i'll get on tat
18:12 hmmmm that
18:13 PilzAdam I also put in mese axe, shovel and sword
18:13 hmmmm i think celeron's intention with only having a mese pick was that the mese pick was the one tool to rule all of them and any other wasn't necessary
18:14 hmmmm celeron doesn't like the whole mese crystal idea and he probably won't like that either, he seems to be quite picky about mese for some reason...
18:14 hmmmm it's just a yellow block with a nonsensical name
18:14 hmmmm at least we're giving it some substance
18:15 hmmmm i'm sure the rest of the minetest players will like other mese gear
18:17 PilzAdam IMO the mese pick should be a little bit slower than the diamond one
18:17 hmmmm well okay
18:17 Exio for me, not
18:18 PilzAdam only 0.1 sec.
18:18 hmmmm hmm, quick question for you guys
18:19 hmmmm for mapgen v7 we're going to have to add portals of some kind, it's necessary for the hell/sky realms
18:19 hmmmm do we want to use RBA's stargates, or copy minecraft's portals?
18:19 PilzAdam maybe think of something else?
18:23 hmmmm what else can we do?
18:24 PilzAdam maybe dig into nether?
18:24 rubenwardy|away how about something that looks like a stone henge?
18:24 rubenwardy|away as a portal
18:24 hmmmm bahahahahahah, dig into the nether, the nether is going to be at -4096
18:24 PilzAdam there are already shafts to -31000
18:25 hmmmm ruben, maybe, i like that idea, i think that portals should be more grand than they are in minecraft
18:25 hmmmm maybe the stonehenge portal should be for teleporting to the sky
18:26 rubenwardy|away :D
18:26 rubenwardy|away or a star trek style portal...
18:28 RealBadAngel my idea was 3x3 for local ones and 4x4 for server travel (like intergalactical travel)
18:29 hmmmm intergalactic travel needed much bigger stargates, as in season 10
18:31 BlockMen how about sky like that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw1movXKfsk#t=122
18:33 RealBadAngel who said mt world from orbit looks like earth? ;)
18:35 BlockMen ok..then a big blue/green cube :)
18:38 RealBadAngel about diamonds:
18:38 RealBadAngel minetest.register_ore({
18:38 RealBadAngel ore_type       = "scatter",
18:38 RealBadAngel ore            = "technic:mineral_diamond",
18:38 RealBadAngel wherein        = "default:stone",
18:38 RealBadAngel clust_scarcity = 11*11*11,
18:38 BlockMen moon would also be cool...that is maybe better for gameplay than space
18:38 RealBadAngel clust_num_ores = 4,
18:38 RealBadAngel clust_size     = 3,
18:38 RealBadAngel height_min     = -31000,
18:38 RealBadAngel height_max     = -450,
18:38 RealBadAngel })
18:38 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, pastebin
18:38 BlockMen with moonstone or something similar
18:39 RealBadAngel ooops. sorry that was supposed to copy pastebins link, not the content
18:40 khonkhortisan there you are - it appears shading turns with the facedir
18:41 RealBadAngel i saw the pictures, what were you using to move the nodes?
18:41 khonkhortisan add_node
18:42 khonkhortisan I'm loading the whole cube into a table, rotating the facedir into another table, then doing add_node right over the previous cube.
18:42 RealBadAngel i will take a look at it, but that should not happen, i saw the lighting code and it should stay intact
18:43 RealBadAngel are cubes regular nodes or nodeboxes?
18:43 khonkhortisan //fixlight didn't help
18:44 khonkhortisan they're nodes
18:44 Exio hmmmm: i'd say "portals" crafted with expensive materials and so
18:44 RealBadAngel okay, i will take closer look at it tommorow
18:46 khonkhortisan okay thanks
18:47 RealBadAngel please upload the code somwhere
18:47 RealBadAngel so i can test it
18:48 khonkhortisan pushed https://github.com/khonkhortisan/rubiks
18:48 celeron55_ PilzAdam: if you're rewriting some tool capabilities, let me review them first; i'm, not very comfortable with people's understanding of how it's supposed to be balaned
18:48 celeron55_ balanced*
18:48 celeron55_ -,
18:48 khonkhortisan or not, I don't see my new commits
18:48 * VanessaE peeks in
18:49 PilzAdam celeron55_, why do swords have the group choppy and why is wood snappy?
18:49 khonkhortisan there it is https://github.com/khonkhortisan/rubiks/tree/6dfacedir
18:49 celeron55_ swords have choppy because you actually can chop wood with a heavy sword just as with an axe; about snappy i don't know
18:50 PilzAdam Id like to remove choppy from swords and fleshy from all other tools
18:50 celeron55_ PilzAdam: what i am concerned is how you use the digging time values vs. maxlevel
18:50 celeron55_ not much else
18:52 RealBadAngel khonkhortisan, ok, i will use it for testing
18:52 VanessaE guys, a question:
18:52 VanessaE [03-26 14:48] <jojoa1997|Tablet> minecraft now supports and texture moving so now some things wont work
18:52 VanessaE [03-26 14:50] <VanessaE> you mean animated ores
18:52 VanessaE [03-26 14:50] <VanessaE> like an occasional glint of light on silver or something
18:52 VanessaE [03-26 14:51] <jojoa1997|Tablet> yeah
18:52 VanessaE Opinions on this?
18:52 celeron55_ PilzAdam: i don't think removing fleshy from eg. axes is wise
18:52 celeron55_ it's very counterintuitive if you can't attack something with an axe
18:53 celeron55_ VanessaE: what does that even mean
18:54 sfan5 celeron55_: every texture can be 16x(16*frames) and it will be animated automatically
18:54 VanessaE celeron55_: to expand on his question, imagine, say, silver ore that occasionally shines - like a lens flare that flicks by now and then
18:55 celeron55_ where is the original source for this?
18:55 celeron55_ a release notice? something?
18:56 VanessaE a quick google search shows a number of people doing this in MC now.
18:56 PilzAdam its very hard to create the group ratings for fleshy, because the current damage system of minetest sucks
18:56 PilzAdam there are only players with fleshy=3 and snappy=2
18:56 PilzAdam nothing else
18:57 celeron55_ the first part of making it better is explaining how it sucks
18:57 rubenwardy Minetest, with a dayz style health system = awesome
18:57 PilzAdam what sucks is that there is no armor that would modify the players groups
18:58 PilzAdam then there are 2 groups, fleshy and snappy
18:58 celeron55_ that isn't really related to the actual system
18:59 PilzAdam players should have only the group fleshy
18:59 celeron55_ i am not saying that the system is good - i am saying that it hasn't even been put properly into use yet, so nobody can know
18:59 rubenwardy It would be great, if there was a damage multiplier.
18:59 rubenwardy IE: armour can set it to 0.5, and stuff like hunger, drugs and illness can set it to 5
18:59 celeron55_ PilzAdam: not that i know if they should or should not have only it, but... why?
19:00 PilzAdam because when it comes to player damage, you just want to define the damage
19:00 celeron55_ PilzAdam: you are just throwing single statements in the air; do you have some kind of a coherent vision or goal here that would possibly explain all that you are going to make?
19:01 PilzAdam like full_punch_interval/damage
19:01 PilzAdam why would you need 2 groups for that?
19:01 PilzAdam it would be much easier, if you just define the damage of a tool
19:02 PilzAdam what complicates it currently, is that the player has 2 groups
19:02 celeron55_ it could make deeper tactics and multidimensional usefulness of tools possible
19:03 celeron55_ but you're free to remove the other and see how it works
19:03 PilzAdam its hardcoded somehwere in the engine
19:03 VanessaE celeron55_: the animated textures were added to MC on the 13th, version 1.5.0
19:05 celeron55_ VanessaE: hmm, apparently
19:06 celeron55_ looks pretty much like how it has been in MT since last summer :P
19:07 VanessaE yup
19:07 VanessaE except that we have to explicitly enable animations in a given node.
19:07 celeron55_ PilzAdam: hmm, that's true
19:09 celeron55_ PilzAdam: it's in content_sao.cpp; in two occasions - one for the default for lua entities and one for players
19:09 celeron55_ it's probably wise to change the default to the simplest possible and let games set them more complicatedly if they want
19:10 PilzAdam the simplest possible is fleshy=3
19:11 PilzAdam also swords should wear out when punching entities
19:12 celeron55_ actually you probably want to set it to fleshy=2
19:13 PilzAdam why?
19:14 celeron55_ it gives one worth of room to both directions
19:14 celeron55_ i don't know how balancing it will work out, but i think that would be a better starting point
19:15 PilzAdam people are already complaining that its 3, because it allows only 2 possible armor improvements
19:15 celeron55_ well that is exactly how the system can be misunderstood
19:16 celeron55_ you set level to something higher to get a general improvement like that
19:16 khonkhortisan RealBadAngel, more info: every face rotates the shading, not just the bottom
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19:17 celeron55_ the player should probably have level=1 or level=2 by default so that there can be much easier targets than the player
19:18 celeron55_ it's now 0 which is probably bad
19:18 PilzAdam then make it 2, because there are tougher enemies than the player
19:18 celeron55_ level goes to an other direction than the others
19:18 celeron55_ higher is tougher
19:18 PilzAdam oh, sorry, I read it wrong
19:18 PilzAdam I read fleshy instead of level
19:20 celeron55_ let me make some examples here... maybe it makes things a bit clearer
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19:21 celeron55_ so let's assume the player is by default fleshy=2,level=1
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19:23 celeron55_ and let's assume a... pig is fleshy=3,level=0 and, say, a bear is fleshy=1,level=2
19:25 celeron55_ and some... ehm... rock monster is cracky=2,level=1
19:26 celeron55_ let's decide to create a sword that can just kill a bear
19:27 celeron55_ it happens that the steel sword from default is like that; it has fleshy={times={[1]=2.00, [2]=0.80, [3]=0.40}, uses=10, maxlevel=2},fleshy={times={[1]=2.00, [2]=0.80, [3]=0.40}, uses=10, maxlevel=2}
19:27 celeron55_ ...crappy middle button
19:29 celeron55_ so if you hit it maximally with that, it will... actually make 0.5 nodes worth of damage, which is 0
19:29 celeron55_ so actually this can't kill it
19:30 celeron55_ actually 0.8/2.0=0.4
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19:32 celeron55_ hmm, setting this up is kind of odd
19:32 celeron55_ so first of all, we never want to set a times value lower than full_punch_interval, because that's utterly useless
19:32 celeron55_ i mean, higher than
19:32 Calinou lower than allows some "error margin", it's fine that way :P
19:33 PilzAdam <celeron55_> hmm, setting this up is kind of odd <- that was what I was talking about
19:33 PilzAdam *is
19:34 celeron55_ i'm going to do something about this, but i'll go through this
19:34 celeron55_ so let's keep full_punch_interval=0.8, and set fleshy={times={[1]=0.5, [2]=0.33, [3]=0.2}, uses=10, maxlevel=2}
19:34 celeron55_ actually no
19:35 celeron55_ fleshy={times={[1]=0.4, [2]=0.2, [3]=0.1}, uses=10, maxlevel=2} this will make some sense
19:36 celeron55_ so now you go hit the bear and it will make 2 damage every time it's perfectly done
19:36 celeron55_ so now we shall test this against the other guys
19:37 Calinou bear?
19:37 PilzAdam https://github.com/PilzAdam/common/commit/8fb22daaca73f1ac38ef0b23e6bdcc905f3bdb48
19:37 PilzAdam what I have currently for the digging times
19:38 celeron55_ in pvp, this will deal 0.8/0.2 = 4 nodes of damage to a unarmoured player
19:38 celeron55_ which makes some sense
19:39 celeron55_ against the pig, it will do 0.8/0.1*2=16 (*2 because at a level difference of >=2, it will start multiplying like this)
19:39 PilzAdam umm... isnt it 1/(full_punch_interval*damage)?
19:40 celeron55_ wat?
19:41 hmmmm hey celeron, why do you serialize all of the parameters together, and not whole MapNodes?  did you figure that it compresses better with each of the fields combined like that?
19:41 PilzAdam if you have the same level
19:41 celeron55_ hmmmm: it will compress a lot better
19:41 hmmmm yeah figured as much.
19:41 celeron55_ PilzAdam: what is "it", and what is damage?
19:42 celeron55_ that doesn't make any sense to me
19:42 PilzAdam oops, damage = group rating
19:42 celeron55_ group rating?
19:42 celeron55_ more like digging time, and even then it's completely wrong
19:43 celeron55_ where did you pull that from :P
19:43 PilzAdam my head :-(
19:43 Calinou "diamond_in_ground.png" should be "default_mineral_diamond.png"...
19:43 PilzAdam Calinou, it is
19:43 Calinou ah ok
19:43 PilzAdam I just forgot to delete diamond_in_ground.png
19:44 hmmmm you know, minecraft doesn't have silver
19:44 hmmmm i wonder if we need it?
19:44 celeron55_ so continued; agains the stone monster it will obviously make zero damage (assuming it doesn't have cracky defined in addition to the beforementioned fleshy)
19:44 VanessaE yes
19:44 VanessaE we have a standard 5-ore set.  use 'em all
19:44 VanessaE there's no reason not to anyway
19:45 PilzAdam we already have gold without any use
19:45 VanessaE so?
19:45 hmmmm you can make decorative gold blocks
19:45 VanessaE does dirt have any real use?
19:45 Calinou +1 for silver
19:45 VanessaE or gravel?
19:45 PilzAdam do you want silver tools?
19:45 Calinou yeah
19:45 hmmmm ehh
19:46 VanessaE I don't care about extra tools, I care about using those minerals to make other stuff
19:46 Calinou faster than iron but less durability?
19:46 VanessaE I use silver + copper to make brass in homedecor, for example.
19:46 Calinou maybe give them a drawback: very long times to mine mese and such
19:46 hmmmm perhaps silver can have some sort of use with its antibacterial properties
19:46 PilzAdam silver apples instead of golden apples?
19:46 VanessaE hmmmm: a special weapon to defeat slines?
19:47 Calinou we used to have iron apples, why not put 'em back
19:47 hmmmm perhaps
19:47 * Calinou never saw one though
19:47 PilzAdam maybe only a silver sword
19:47 hmmmm yeah, silver sword
19:47 celeron55_ so, now if the player wants to protect himself from this sword in pvp, he wears up some armor that raises his level by one and lowers fleshy to 1, which makes him equal to the bear in terms of damage dealt... but there is no way anything could now take 1hp per proper hit from this sword... only 0 or 2 or higher 8)
19:48 hmmmm heh
19:48 hmmmm some mods can let you make a silver chloride powder that you can drop above cloud level and it'd cause rain
19:48 celeron55_ this is actually quite complicated
19:48 VanessaE hmmmm: nice idea!
19:49 hmmmm anyway the original usage for gold in minecraft was for currency
19:49 celeron55_ i mean, improving this
19:49 hmmmm there was an intended currency system.. also golden apples but that's a crappy idea because gold is quite rare
19:49 celeron55_ if we're to make completely different definitions for weapons, then coupling weapon damage and node damage from eg. explosions is hard
19:49 celeron55_ currently it's, in threory, trivial to do
19:49 celeron55_ theory*
19:50 hmmmm i feel like the damage system is overcomplicated, if i were implementing it i would've done something completely different
19:50 hmmmm but it's here now and it's not going to change
19:50 celeron55_ it's probably going to change; but it's still very unclear to me how exactly
19:51 Calinou it's not that hard to understand once you've understood it
19:51 hmmmm i'm staying out of it
19:51 Calinou full punch interval = the max "damage power" you can have
19:51 Calinou digging times = how much a damage point costs in "damage power"
19:51 celeron55_ Calinou: it isn't that hard to understand, but even when i fully understand it, i can't make the results that i want using it
19:52 PilzAdam celeron55_, maybe make everything the same level and invert the fleshy group (1 = weakest), so its easier to define the armor groups
19:52 celeron55_ PilzAdam: no, that isn't good
19:52 VanessaE hmmmm: ok, so...  in addition to ore->lump->ingot->block, we have gold for currency, silver for that special sword, how about copper for anything conductive, tin for alloying with other stuff (e.g. to make bronze), mithril as another "magical" ore like mese, but perhaps more "powerful"
19:52 VanessaE (given how rare it is)
19:52 celeron55_ the way largest problem here is the roughness of the HP scale
19:52 hmmmm well hold on
19:53 hmmmm both gold and silver have higher conductance than copper
19:53 celeron55_ the first thing i'll modify is making 1 node equal 10hp
19:53 hmmmm you should be able to make conductive materials with any of those three
19:53 celeron55_ that will get us to a good start
19:53 VanessaE yes but how often do so see them used in anything except an IC or a connector?
19:53 hmmmm well it's the user's own stupidity of he uses something rare like gold or silver for a connector 8)
19:54 VanessaE but I'm just thinking of the primary use of each material
19:54 VanessaE heh true
19:54 hmmmm besides, minecraft has gold powered tracks
19:54 VanessaE but I meant in the electronics industry
19:54 celeron55_ then we'll add an alternate way of "digging times" of weapons, by putting something like this instead of "times": damage={[1]=10, [2]=6, [3]=3}
19:54 hmmmm but nobody ever uses it
19:54 PilzAdam VanessaE, dont be too realistic
19:54 VanessaE PilzAdam: nothing wrong with "realistic" if it also makes sense generally.
19:55 celeron55_ and still, "For lower leveled nodes, the use count is multiplied by 3^leveldiff" <- this is made 2^leveldiff
19:55 celeron55_ then we will have a workable damage system
19:56 celeron55_ (i didn't really expect anyone to understand but) ...how does that sound like?
19:56 celeron55_ 8)
19:57 PilzAdam "damage={[1]=10, [2]=6, [3]=3}" why in this order?
19:57 celeron55_ because that is how minetest's digging/damage groups are defined to work
19:57 VanessaE hmmmm: of course I can only speak of my own uses of the various materials...  for example in homedecor, the oven uses a copper ingot in its recipe to represent the heating element, a fridge uses tin to vaguely represent the heat exchanger coils, silver and copper combine to make brass, gold and mithril aren't used for anything yet
19:57 celeron55_ that is a thing that simply won't be changed
19:57 PilzAdam celeron55_, I though you wanted {3,6,10}
19:57 PilzAdam *thought
19:58 celeron55_ but really, this actually still sucks
19:58 PilzAdam or is this still digging time?
19:58 celeron55_ it's just the same as how digging time works but it's calculated for the user
19:59 PilzAdam because damage basically is inverted digging time
19:59 celeron55_ this still sucks mainly because in digging time, a level difference of 1 doesn't cause any difference to time (this is good for digging things)
19:59 celeron55_ but it is very bad for this
19:59 celeron55_ or... somewhat bad
20:00 celeron55_ or actually i don't know
20:01 celeron55_ so let's define the requirements for a damage system
20:02 celeron55_ one of the basis to this i guess is that players have 20 health points and other entities are expected to have similar amounts of those
20:03 PilzAdam then there should be different armor groups, were tools cause different damages
20:03 celeron55_ definitely; otherwise it's very monotonous
20:05 celeron55_ so then, there is one question left: how is it handled that a player cannot kill a "boss" monster by using his initial weapons? i guess it's either just a matter of the monster having so many HP that it kills the player before the player kills it, or it has some armor that the player needs to find a special weapon for
20:06 celeron55_ so now, this would imply that just defining how much HP a weapon does with a full hit to each group, and probably keep full_punch_interval around
20:06 celeron55_ +would be enough
20:07 PilzAdam that is what I wanted with inverting fleshy and leave level completly out
20:08 celeron55_ i don't want to invert it; it has to behave like other groups
20:08 celeron55_ any digging groups serve as armor groups too
20:08 PilzAdam but it isnt like other groups
20:08 celeron55_ it is
20:08 PilzAdam I think that is what causes the most problems
20:09 celeron55_ but you can't fix it properly because the only group you can possibly arguably invert is fleshy
20:09 celeron55_ or do we define that all groups are inverted in entities?
20:10 celeron55_ that is actually probably a possibility
20:10 celeron55_ but what would the groups do?
20:12 celeron55_ maybe make them, for entities, be signed numbers with 0 meaning no effect, negative meaning multiplication of damage and positive meaning division of damage... umm
20:12 celeron55_ in some way
20:15 hmmmm group is the exponent?
20:16 hmmmm but that's what leveldiff already does
20:16 hmmmm if leveldiff is negative it divides in effect
20:16 hmmmm vanessae, let's try not to skew the usage for these blocks in any particular way, it's probably best left up to the modmakers to decide.
20:17 VanessaE hmmmm: that's perfectly fair.
20:17 VanessaE I'm just trying to come up with a "reason" to add them, since that seems to be desirous among others here
20:17 hmmmm well how about this:
20:18 hmmmm the reason for gravel, sandstone, brick, etc. is because they're in minecraft
20:18 hmmmm well, gold et al. are in minecraft too, so there's all the justification necessary
20:20 VanessaE *sigh* another bad::alloc crash, same as the previous ones.  http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5650397/
20:20 VanessaE ok, that's fair enough
20:20 VanessaE if MC has them, there's no reason we can't as well
20:20 hmmmm this might be a stl migration problem
20:20 VanessaE (at least for ores, blocks, etc()
20:21 hmmmm obviously, we need to check what code paths taken were modified when a player joins
20:22 hmmmm perhaps you can compile as debug, and we'll know where the exception actually came from?
20:22 VanessaE sure
20:22 VanessaE willdo
20:23 PilzAdam celeron55_, here is what I currently have for the digging times: https://github.com/PilzAdam/common/commit/diamonds
20:23 PilzAdam you wanted to look over them
20:29 celeron55_ PilzAdam: looks quite minor; i won't care until i see or hear it working badly :P
20:30 celeron55_ umm
20:31 celeron55_ how are you going to mine diamond or mese, as they both require diamond or mese picks?
20:31 PilzAdam only the full blocks do
20:31 celeron55_ the ores should probably have level=2 too
20:31 celeron55_ or at least 1
20:32 celeron55_ currently you can just go and dig diamond with a stone pick
20:32 celeron55_ not very good
20:32 PilzAdam no, you cant
20:33 PilzAdam stone pick has only cracky=2 while the ores have cracky=1
20:33 celeron55_ oh
20:33 celeron55_ i see
20:34 VanessaE hmmmm: there, debug build is in place and running normally, under gdb.
20:34 hmmmm grate
20:34 PilzAdam and ores dont have level>0 because you only break the stone arround them
20:34 * VanessaE hands hmmmm kitchen utensil.
20:35 PilzAdam hm, should I make iron and gold cracky=2?
20:36 hmmmm i don't think iron and gold are cracky
20:37 PilzAdam but you shouldnt be able to dig them with a wooden pickaxe
20:41 PilzAdam so there are 2 things missing for diamonds and gold to be merged: hmmmm's register_ore additions and the new damage system
20:41 hmmmm doing other stuff atm
20:42 PilzAdam but I think it could be pushed without the damage system
20:42 PilzAdam just leave the TODO note there
20:43 hmmmm grrrr
20:44 hmmmm i'll do the ore thing, hold on,.
20:49 hmmmm well, later.
20:50 PilzAdam I can wait
21:02 celeron55_ http://dev.minetest.net/Damage_system#Damage_calculation_2
21:02 celeron55_ based on all of my experience, that would/will work
21:05 celeron55_ the implementation is incompatible (as in existing things will do nothing) (otoh, who uses the current tool damage anyway) but can share much of the existing framework; just a few pieces here and there get additions and modifications
21:07 celeron55_ the only arbitrary thing is the percentage interpretation of the group value; it is the only sane way to do it, as groups values are integers and an inexisting group equals zero equals inexisting gtroup
21:07 celeron55_ group*
21:10 celeron55_ now i'm out; i might implement that if nobody else does it, but probably not too soon
21:10 celeron55_ ->Z
21:10 celeron55_ ...terrible typos all the time
21:16 hmmmm hmmm alright, so i can do the ores while dinner is cooking
21:16 hmmmm so i'll have two new fields and change another
21:16 hmmmm clust_scarcity will be gone, clust_scarcity_min and clust_scarcity_max will be added, along with clust_scarcity_ramp_end
21:17 hmmmm i'll find better names that aren't as long later
21:17 PilzAdam sounds good
21:17 hmmmm clust_scarcity_ramp will be a value strictly in between height_min and height_max
21:17 hmmmm the greater clust_scarcity is, the less ore there is
21:18 hmmmm but we want there to be at least clust_scarcity_min throughout the whole thing.
21:18 hmmmm so if y is greater than or equal to clust_scarcity_ramp, the effective scarcity will be clust_scarcity_min
21:19 hmmmm if height_max < y < clust_scarcity_ramp, then the effective scarcity will be clust_scarcity_min + R
21:20 hmmmm R is the scarcity linearily interpolated with the amount it's down
21:21 hmmmm R = min + d * (max - min), where d = [(clust_scarcity_ramp - height_max) - (current_y - height_max)] / (clust_scarcity_ramp - height_max)
21:21 hmmmm that is, the percentage change
21:21 hmmmm of the relative values of those height variables
21:22 hmmmm and for a decreasing ramp, you'd just tack on a negative sign to the whole thing
21:22 hmmmm and i have to properly adjust height_min/height_max for an upward/downward slope
21:35 VanessaE I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to keep clust_scarcity anyway
21:35 VanessaE and just not use it if the other params are not specified
21:59 BlockMen joined #minetest-dev
22:00 BlockMen hi everyone
22:02 BlockMen there are one or two questions left about the main menu competion
22:03 BlockMen first: should just the two files be changed like at my try?
22:03 BlockMen and second: should the new coulds be integrated?
22:04 BlockMen and third: just the background or also the menu itself?
22:07 ShadowNinja joined #minetest-dev
22:07 PilzAdam second: yes
22:08 PilzAdam it should work with them enabled and disabled
22:11 BlockMen ok, then question 3 plz, because then question 1 is answered aswell ;)
22:14 PilzAdam we need some suggestions for a redesigned menu
22:16 BlockMen okay. summing up: no, yes, yes
22:17 PilzAdam better: depends on 3; yes; maybe, depends how many people can code suggestions and if they are good
22:22 troller joined #minetest-dev
22:22 BlockMen Here are the rules:  - The newly integrated dynamic clouds have to be part of design - The design should look good even with disabled menu clouds - You can also include suggestions for a new Menu layout itself
22:22 BlockMen ok that way?
22:23 ShadowNinja sounds good
22:23 PilzAdam + code for the whole menu if you suggest a general redesign
22:23 PilzAdam otherwise nobody will do it
22:24 BlockMen will be added
22:25 PilzAdam and add the node "menu_clouds = false in minetest.conf to disable menuclouds"
22:25 PilzAdam *note
22:26 VanessaE guys, can we PLEASE change the filename spec for screenshots?
22:27 VanessaE to something that makes some semblance of SENSE?
22:34 BlockMen ok, here is the new topic: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=78959
22:35 BlockMen could someone check?
22:35 hmmmm i guess it's fine
22:36 hmmmm i still can't understand why the main menu needs to change
22:36 hmmmm i thought almost everybody likes it?
22:36 VanessaE I'm quite happy with the way the main menu is set up right now
22:36 PilzAdam maybe someone comes up with something brilliant
22:36 PilzAdam you never know...
22:38 BlockMen dont get this wrong, i think that was a great idea with the clouds!
22:39 BlockMen but IMO it just missing something
22:41 BlockMen and thx for support so far btw
23:50 BlockMen left #minetest-dev

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