Time Nick Message 07:17 VanessaE celeron55: any chance of you extending nodeboxes so that we could supply roll/pitch/yaw vectors per box as well? e.g. up to 9 fields instead of 6 07:18 celeron55 no? that sounds like somebody needs to implement 3d models for nodes 07:19 VanessaE eh, I wasn't thinking to that extent 07:19 celeron55 the answer is no. 07:20 VanessaE ok. I was thinking more like if a mod author just wanted to angle a box for something like a wall lever handle, torch, etc. 07:20 VanessaE but ok. 07:20 Calinou external 3d models has a downside; it's MUCH more complex and you need to do all the UV mapping stuff yourself 07:20 Calinou most modders will just ignore 3D models for nodes in this case 07:23 celeron55 if somebody implements the suggested fields, i can take a look at it and consider using it if it's good, but i am not going to do anything like that 07:23 VanessaE celeron55: what about per-nodebox textures? I don't remember your answer to that one (if any). 07:23 celeron55 yeah and then nodecircles? 07:24 VanessaE um, no 07:24 celeron55 i don't feel like implementing a 3d modeller in minetest 07:24 celeron55 there are already good ones 07:24 VanessaE um 07:24 celeron55 i need to draw a line somewhere 07:24 VanessaE you're missing the point 07:24 celeron55 explain the point in four words 07:25 VanessaE 4 words? heh 07:25 VanessaE stacked nodebox texture glitches 07:26 celeron55 now i guess you need a screenshot too 07:26 VanessaE in other words if you build some simple implement, say a cube with a smaller cube floating above, the lower cube's upper face, for example, gets the same texture as the upper face of the upper cube, even if the "right" design would have the two looking entirely different. 07:26 VanessaE ok, a screenshot. 07:26 VanessaE one sec, I have the perfect thing. 07:27 celeron55 i know that 07:28 celeron55 well, again, if somebody does it (i wonder if there already IS an implementation somewhere?), i can consider 07:28 celeron55 i am not interested once again 07:28 VanessaE there's a problem with that plan. 07:29 VanessaE if you'll excuse me being blunt here: if someone does it, you're likely to reject it anyway because it either isn't flexible enough or the code sucks or something else (all valid concerns). 07:29 VanessaE there: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/screenshot_1209353173.png 07:30 celeron55 "likely to reject it" <- i am likely to reject it if it is badly made 07:30 VanessaE see how the dark handle casts a shadow over the pipe on the left? I get only three options here: make the handle shorter, make the handle have a light grey bit on the end, or have that shadow 07:30 celeron55 and i see nothing wrong in that 07:31 VanessaE ideally, the pipe should still be light grey and the handle should have it's own set of textures so that the compromise isn't necessary 07:31 celeron55 or, well, it has it's wrong side, but i cannot do anything to it; it is inherent to the way of doing things 07:31 VanessaE anyway, "I am not interested". Fine then. 07:32 VanessaE oh also: as you can see, nodeboxes can look quite round if you're careful with your design ;-) 07:32 celeron55 if you haven't noticed, i am rarely interested in doing things these days; the options pretty much are 1) DIY, 2) live without the thing 07:32 VanessaE yes I've noticed, and this is bad for the project to be perfectly honest. 07:33 celeron55 yes, so? 07:33 VanessaE er 07:33 celeron55 i fully acknowledge it is bad for the project 07:34 VanessaE I can understand if you don't feel like coding. 07:34 celeron55 still i won't go and do stuff that i just hate doing and will get nothing out of 07:34 VanessaE that's not the issue. 07:35 celeron55 so what is the correctable issue? 07:35 VanessaE the issue is when someone *else* does something useful to others (whether useful to you in particular or not) only for their code contributions to sit untouched for weeks at a time. 07:36 celeron55 i do take in contributions, but i don't want to cram them in at random times but at times when it best suits the release cycle and other stuff at works 07:36 VanessaE it would be fine if the code turns out to be crap, then of course it should be rejected, but otherwise why does anyone want to contribute if you don't feel like doing anything with the code? 07:37 celeron55 if people care about whether their code goes in in 1 hour vs. in 6 months, then the only option really is to not contribute 07:38 VanessaE eh 07:38 VanessaE people care if it takes 6 months if their code ends up becoming unusable because it sat for so long. 07:38 celeron55 also, people are free to start maintaining their own community contributed branch, and if it's good and i feel lazy, chances are i will just take it in 07:38 celeron55 people haven't done that really at all 07:39 VanessaE oh they have. 07:39 VanessaE I've been watching a little here and there. 07:39 celeron55 i have seen only darkrose's one that i suggested to be started 07:39 Calinou VanessaE, haven't seen many patches around... c55 can't add invisible patches 07:40 VanessaE there are 118 forks of minetest. How manyare still active? I dunno 07:40 Calinou last "worthwhile" one I seen was the weather patch 07:40 celeron55 if you hide the work somewhere i can't see, how do you expect me to do anything with it? 07:40 VanessaE Calinou: there are 11 pull requests against minetest and another one or two against _game 07:40 Calinou "small things" tend to get added much easier too; remember my very small code change that prevent people from using /me when they're muted? 07:40 Calinou if you're making a core change of course a merge is unlikely.. 07:44 VanessaE celeron55: the bottom line is this: people like the game. modders like Calinou and I love to write little (or big) mods to extend some function, but if you don't want to be there so that we can help you to make the game better in some way, how should we respond? 07:45 Calinou the answer is the community; see the 3D player patch; back when it worked a good amount of people used it, and even made new skins for it 07:45 celeron55 maybe we should just dump the whole thing and start doing something else 07:46 VanessaE celeron55: no, that's an awful drastic thing to do. 07:47 VanessaE pass the torch to someone else - give some trusted individual access to update git master directly (maybe darkrose, maybe others, I don't know) 07:47 VanessaE if you do anything at all as drastic, do that. 07:47 celeron55 also, as there is no voting system of any kind in place, people *have* to repeatedly notify me of patches they would like to have included 07:47 celeron55 otherwise i have no way of prioritizing anything, because i usually don't play the game 07:47 VanessaE celeron55: fine, but when we do that you either ignore us or get pissed off briefly. 07:48 Calinou idea: start a fork of MT where several community people can commit 07:48 Calinou then tell people about it to contribute, then we can add their patches if they are good 07:48 celeron55 i try not to, but it's hard to tell when people want to argue about stuff or just vote for something already done 07:48 VanessaE celeron55: I'll give you a perfect example, and I only mention this because it is easy for me to remember: 07:49 VanessaE celeron55: when we did the dyes thing, you said you didn't want to rely on an outside mod for glass vessels. I responded by writing an appropriate mod, tuning it, and submitting a request. Three times until now I have asked you your opinion on it. You ignored me all three times - in an otherwise idle channel. 07:50 VanessaE That pull request now also contains animated torches, another query you did not respond to. 07:50 Calinou [very unrelated] how about adding this? https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/issues/219 07:50 Calinou you can't bind "use" and "sneak" to the same key AFAIK, so it's useful 07:51 VanessaE celeron55: the rest of the time, honestly, I think people are afraid to ask you about these sorts of things. 07:51 celeron55 i have not ignored it; i am just putting it aside until i have time to check it to the extent i want to check things i put upstream; just like #219 07:52 celeron55 merging stuff is not like just pressing a button and then not caring about it before or after 07:52 VanessaE celeron55: no no, I don't mean ignoring the patch - I mean ignoring my "request for comment" if you'll excuse the expression. 07:52 celeron55 i test everything and make sure all works as intended and there are no unintended things and stuff like that 07:52 celeron55 and i can't do it except at times when i am genuinely interested in working on minetest 07:53 VanessaE of course. 07:53 VanessaE and that's completely understandable 07:53 VanessaE but if you're in here talking, and have gone silent for a bit, and someone asks you a question, but you ignore them and then go on to talk about something else an hour later... surely you can see the issue there 07:54 VanessaE (where "talking" and "something else" usually both are minetest related, if separated by some hours) 07:55 celeron55 eh 07:56 VanessaE and after all the work Jeija and I did together on Mesecons lately, and RealBadAngel working with me on pipeworks (the screeshot I showed you), believe me I am more than a little bit familiar with the proper review-merge-retest process. 07:56 celeron55 how many examples of such you can point at? 07:56 VanessaE of unanswered comments? Nothing more without an exhaustive search of my logs. 07:57 VanessaE (or the online copies anyway) 07:57 celeron55 *i read everything on this channel* 07:57 VanessaE so you've said, and I don't doubt that. 07:58 celeron55 ask something you've seen here that you think i haven't seen and i'll tell if i've seen it 07:59 celeron55 that is like the only thing i always do, and that is exactly why i don't want random chit-chat in here, in order to be able to do it 07:59 VanessaE [08-20 07:41] celeron55: is there only one sea level throughout the game? 07:59 celeron55 i saw that, and was about to answer at the beginning of this discussion, but saschaheylik isn't here ATM 07:59 VanessaE (I believe the answer is 'yes' but I didn't code the map generator so I couldn't answer definitvely) 08:00 VanessaE [08-19 17:35] celeron55: is that solution for custom crafting grids sane enough? https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/pull/220 08:01 VanessaE (and his account IS here, so he would likely see a notification - not that I actually care for the idea of a smaller crafting grid :-) ) 08:02 VanessaE vicscandl thanked you twice in last two days or so for your work on the game. 08:02 VanessaE (not sure if it's customary for Finns to say phrases such as "you're welcome" or so) 08:03 celeron55 apparently that particular thexyz's line is the only one i haven't noticed in the past days; i did read everything after and everything before it (probably because i thought i had read everything thexyz said already); anyway, it's on github so i have to look into it anyway at some point 08:05 celeron55 ehm... i did wonder why he said it twice; i consider replying anything to that as being chit-chat not belonging to here 08:06 VanessaE the other day when you mentioned wanting to get 0.4.2-release out to the world, I said 'no' and pointed out why I thought that was a bad idea. instead of responding to my comment, you went onto to gripe calinou out about a patch he submitted. 08:06 celeron55 (if i was looking at this channel the exact time he was saying it i might have replied though, but after many hours, not) 08:08 VanessaE Anyway I think the point is made now. 08:09 celeron55 after you said that, i went to browse through the github issue list to see how many of issues there are 08:09 celeron55 and actually merged one of them 08:09 VanessaE quite some number of them aren't there? :-) 08:09 celeron55 but then i had to do other things 08:09 celeron55 actually not merged but fixed... well anyway 08:10 VanessaE right. 08:11 celeron55 who is chris dorman / ubuntunerd69 and how this guy relates to stuff that has happened on the forum? 08:11 VanessaE maybe some of this is culture clash. Where I come from, it's customary to say something like "ok, give me some time to X" for whatever thing X that has to be done to continue a given conversation. 08:12 celeron55 is that the one posting the hacked client? 08:12 VanessaE he's a griefer is about all I know 08:12 celeron55 ok 08:12 VanessaE however, 08:12 VanessaE one sec 08:12 celeron55 i received a whinemail (now an official term) from him 08:12 VanessaE *racks brain* 08:12 VanessaE HAHA! 08:12 VanessaE ok it's the same guy then 08:12 VanessaE lemme get the log 08:13 VanessaE (I closed his thread, cal banned him) 08:13 VanessaE http://pastebin.com/7bQZC0Ve 08:13 VanessaE his whine session to me in /msg 08:14 VanessaE he goes by another name on some servers, rather well-known name in fact, but I can't recall what it was now 08:15 VanessaE hrm, that doesn't seem right. Someone equating him with madchicken13 08:16 celeron55 i don't think banning is really reasonable unless he has done not good stuff on the forums before 08:16 VanessaE I didn't think so either but *shrug* I don't know what to do in this sort of case 08:16 VanessaE oh also, keegan requested that I close his server thread until his ban expires, but someone undisclosed kept re-opening it. 08:17 celeron55 somebody should note him that it does help expose the not-so-good anticheat features, but needing to improve them is always directly away from actually improving the game in ways that any valid user cares about 08:17 VanessaE haha, forgot to answer the capthca on my log paste. you can read it now :D 08:18 celeron55 i could read it already 08:18 VanessaE oh ok 08:18 VanessaE interesting that pastebin published it before I answered the captcha. I'll have to send them a bug report. 08:18 celeron55 anyway, calinou should reconsider the ban; if calinou does know of previous abuse, then it's acceptable, otherwise not so 08:19 celeron55 VanessaE: the captcha is for viewing the paste 08:19 celeron55 not for pasting 08:19 VanessaE oooohhhhh 08:19 VanessaE I'll raise the point with him when he's on next. 08:23 VanessaE hm. this is already fixed now isn't it? https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/issues/144 08:24 celeron55 most likely not 08:24 celeron55 your interpretation of the problem is just wrog 08:24 celeron55 wrong* 08:24 VanessaE yeah I figured that now :-) 08:25 celeron55 (no idea what the bug is though, i have never seen that) 08:26 VanessaE my only guess is it's related to the zip/unzip bug you and darkrose fixed. 08:26 celeron55 ah 08:26 VanessaE I haven't seen that error since that commit 08:26 celeron55 that is actually the most probable cause, which'd mean it is fixed 08:27 VanessaE the 1400 mentioned must just be an incredible coincidence :-) 08:27 celeron55 well 1400 is just a random number if computers are concerned 08:27 VanessaE right, that's what had be so confused. 08:34 VanessaE celeron55: #135, there's a mod for that now. 08:35 VanessaE http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2704 08:37 celeron55 i should probably focus my effort on some kind of community portals for development 08:38 VanessaE #207, jin_xi found a workaround for that, but I don't know the details. 08:38 VanessaE http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2367 08:39 VanessaE yeah, that probably would be a good idea, but how will you (or whoever) manage the incoming code? you're already pretty heavily loaded from what it looks like to me. 08:39 thexyz really? workaround? 08:39 VanessaE thexyz: aye. he said he told you about it I thought? 08:39 thexyz right 08:39 VanessaE jin_xi uses a similar method as you for combining those textures into entity sprites. 08:40 thexyz he said he did some random things and then it worked 08:40 VanessaE haha 08:40 thexyz afaik 08:40 VanessaE I never said his workaround wasn't also a dirty hack ;-) but not having looked at it, I can't comment on it beyond just saying it exists. 08:41 celeron55 somebody try adding "baseimg->fill(video::SColor(0,0,0,0));" after line tile.cpp:1347 08:41 celeron55 uh no 08:41 celeron55 oh, yes actually 08:42 VanessaE trying.. 08:44 celeron55 "but how will you (or whoever) manage the incoming code?" <- voting 8) then i can blame the users themselves! 08:44 VanessaE oh hell, that was the wrong version of minetest to try 08:44 * VanessaE tries again against current gity 08:44 VanessaE -y 08:46 VanessaE um 08:46 VanessaE current git already has that line in it? 08:47 VanessaE no that can't be right 08:47 VanessaE wrong file again 08:48 celeron55 http://paste.dy.fi/dAK 08:48 thexyz works fine for me 08:48 VanessaE right. I just need to edit the right damn git pull and pay closer attention :-) 08:49 thexyz yes, no more glitches 08:50 thexyz btw, celeron55, where is inventorylist's size property saved? 08:50 celeron55 also there is some other things to add to it; namely creating baseimg only if it doesn't already exist and using blit_with_alpha instead of copyToWithAlpha 08:51 celeron55 thexyz: saved? 08:53 celeron55 like... not depending on what you mean with saving, it is saved where the list is saved, where else could it be? 08:53 thexyz umm.. i mean, whether it's stored in database/etc, and if yes, which part of code manages saving/loading 08:54 VanessaE looks good here, no more glitches on the signs either. 08:54 celeron55 InventoryList::serialize() and Inventory::serialize() 08:54 celeron55 and deSerialize 08:55 celeron55 inventories are saved as line-oriented text 08:56 celeron55 for the players, they are in the player files, for other things, in some obscure construction in the database 08:56 celeron55 hint: mapformat.txt 08:56 celeron55 8) 08:57 celeron55 one thing to do would be to rework the map format to not contain as much legacy crap as currently (but not changing things for the sake of changing things) 08:58 jin_xi a propos tile.cpp: still leaking textures (all stages of drawing a painting for example) 09:03 jin_xi here is a thread about it with link to patch: http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=932 09:04 thexyz btw, celeron55, anything about my pull request? you still haven't said is inventorylist width property sane enough 09:06 celeron55 i am actually at work and should do something completely different but umm... 09:08 celeron55 thexyz: i have intentionally tried to keep out from having any geometry stored in inventory lists (thus the name too) 09:08 celeron55 so that they can be shown in various geometries as needed 09:08 celeron55 that quite breaks the thought 09:10 thexyz but that one should be used only in cases when something really needs to know inventorylists's "dimensions" 09:10 thexyz like crafting grid 09:11 thexyz that's not mandatory property 09:11 celeron55 people are likely to set the width and then go confused because it didn't change it anywhere 09:11 celeron55 8) 09:13 celeron55 if it was called "craft width", it'd probably get the point through 09:14 thexyz but it could be used not only for crafting grid 09:14 celeron55 also it'd be possible to have the system require that crafting grids are always NxN, so it could just calculate it from the overall size 09:15 celeron55 which... would probably work very well as for now 09:15 celeron55 thexyz: any examples? 09:16 thexyz examples of what? 09:16 celeron55 of for what it could be used 09:16 celeron55 viewing them is always defined at an another level 09:17 thexyz something like "nuclear reactor" in minecraft's industrialcraft mod 09:17 thexyz where position matters 09:19 celeron55 position in a random inventory matters? 09:19 celeron55 how? 09:21 celeron55 random as in it is not trivially known what the geometry of the inventory is by code that handles it 09:21 thexyz i have never played industrialcraft but in this mod it does; in reactor some items affect neighbors 09:28 celeron55 hmm... does the crafting trivially work anywhere where there is a craftpreview and a craftresult 1x1 list? 09:29 celeron55 i guess not 09:31 celeron55 < saschaheylik> celeron55: is there only one sea level throughout the game? <- yes 09:37 thexyz as i already said, that can be used not only for crafting 09:38 celeron55 well, my point is, if i added a stone pickaxe with a green dot at it's side with an upside-down recipe, it could be used for digging 09:38 celeron55 but there'd be no point 09:39 celeron55 the strongest point for having a width is crafting, so i want to figure out the best solution for it first 09:42 celeron55 i am not saying your suggestion wasn't the best solution, but i have yet to find a solid example use case for it other than crafting 09:43 celeron55 the reactor knows the height of it's list and expands only sideways 09:43 celeron55 if considering industrialcraft 09:43 thexyz then what about reactor that can expand in both directions? just imagine it =) 19:42 celeron55 some guy emails me saying he is having a problem with the forum captcha 19:42 celeron55 does anyone else know of any problem with it? 19:43 celeron55 oh fuck 19:43 celeron55 apparently it doesn't indeed work 19:45 celeron55 wtf 19:50 celeron55 apparently there are other problems too now 19:59 thexyz lol 20:03 celeron55 lol 20:03 celeron55 now the hoster guy timed out from irc 20:03 celeron55 priceless 20:16 thexyz celeron55: remember, my offer is still in effect ;) 20:32 celeron55 i will be waiting for the site to come back online and an explanation before taking any kind of action 20:34 celeron55 i, in fact, have connection to the file hosting and nightly build capable machine, but the one doing the website stuff has gone 20:34 * VanessaE gasps and heaves 20:35 celeron55 also the db server seems to be up 20:35 celeron55 odd