Time Nick Message 06:14 celeron55 madchicken is making "Moderator please delete" posts on the forum 06:14 celeron55 our policy, especially on the server section, is to warn people who do this, and ultimately BAN people who do this 06:14 VanessaE understood 06:15 celeron55 they should reuse their old server posts, and if they absolutely don't need as many as they had before, they should just mark them with bold letters at the beginning as "not available anymore" 06:15 celeron55 or something like that 06:16 VanessaE dammit, already fell out of firefox'shistory 06:16 celeron55 i disabled the deleting of posts because people use the functionality VERY stupidly 06:16 celeron55 if they can do it, they can delete discussions that people have had 06:16 celeron55 and now they can delete the topic of discussions that people have had 06:16 celeron55 by editing it 06:16 celeron55 it is ban worthy 06:17 VanessaE it's for that reason (affecting whole conversations) that I never delete any of my posts if there's been a reply to it 06:18 VanessaE or I try not to anyway 06:19 VanessaE c55: see earlier msg 06:19 celeron55 http://paste.dy.fi/mKR 06:21 VanessaE that looks okay to me 06:21 celeron55 already sent it; just linking it here because it is useful information for moderators 06:22 VanessaE ok. I'll keep that in mind 06:30 celeron55 "OK sorry i was not aware Thanks for the info" 06:30 celeron55 some people just don't have common sense 06:30 celeron55 apparently 06:31 VanessaE huh. you shoulda been in #minetest earlier today, speaking of lack of common sense 06:32 VanessaE Keegan (who has since backed off of this) had the nerve to start demanding (as in all caps and plenty of !!) that anyone who has one hand over to him a hacked minetest client 06:32 VanessaE he was...stonewalled :-) 06:34 celeron55 hacking a minetest client is so easy anyone with brains can do it 06:34 celeron55 given some time 06:34 VanessaE right 07:34 saschaheylik celeron55: http://www.greatgamemusic.com/free_game_music.php 07:34 saschaheylik celeron55: i think this would make a great background track for the main menu 07:35 saschaheylik celeron55: what do you think? 07:36 saschaheylik im going to put it in my minetest version with an option to turn it off. then you can pull it if you want 07:37 saschaheylik gonna have to wait for that guy to send me the track though 07:38 saschaheylik well theres lots of other good music too 07:38 saschaheylik http://content.gpwiki.org/index.php/Game_Content_Resources 08:04 sfan5 saschaheylik: opengameart.org you can find music there too 08:07 saschaheylik yes its in the list too 08:09 celeron55 saschaheylik: horrible 08:10 saschaheylik what would you prefer? 08:11 saschaheylik i just found a bug... if you place a block underneath you, crouch, and the block is removed, you float. 08:11 celeron55 that has been fixed in 0.4.2-rc1 08:11 saschaheylik (in spawn protection) 08:11 saschaheylik oh 08:12 saschaheylik why do i have an out of date version? 08:12 saschaheylik pulled it from github 08:12 saschaheylik oh guess it changes 08:12 saschaheylik *d 08:13 celeron55 uhm 08:13 saschaheylik nvm 08:13 celeron55 i don't see the commit anywhere, bit it has been fixed; i tried 08:16 sfan5 feature request: ObjectRef (Player only) get_digging_time() 08:16 VanessaE celeron55: if you're so inclined, can you add something to the api that tells if the player is digging (or at least, swinging their fist/tool/etc)? 08:16 VanessaE haha 08:16 VanessaE great minds, etc :-) 08:21 celeron55 what are you going to do with that 08:22 sfan5 digging particles in particles mod 08:22 VanessaE so that a mod can execute some special effect when a no-- 08:22 VanessaE yeah. 08:22 sfan5 :D 08:22 VanessaE horrible. not useful for survival. piss off. etc. ;-) 08:24 VanessaE seriously though, between get_pointed_thing_position() and register_globalstep() and the above suggestion, one could see if a person is digging, and on what 08:25 celeron55 that sounds quite doable; add it as an issue to github 08:25 VanessaE and throw particles in a timed fashion (a few times a second at the max) 08:25 VanessaE it has? 08:25 sfan5 that sounds quite doable; add it as an issue to github 08:25 sfan5 VanessaE: your job ;) 08:25 VanessaE oops 08:25 celeron55 it wasn't doable a while ago, but a bit shorter while ago some stuff was added on the server side that makes it doable 08:25 VanessaE I read that as "and it has.." not "add it as" 08:26 saschaheylik if you dont mind me asking, where are you trying to go with this? 08:27 VanessaE issue submitted 08:27 sfan5 saschaheylik: <sfan5> digging particles in particles mod 08:27 saschaheylik no i mean minetest in general 08:27 saschaheylik any plans? 08:27 sfan5 umm.. 08:28 saschaheylik actually i was mainly asking celeron55 08:28 darkrose 'make it fun' 08:28 saschaheylik thats not a good plan 08:28 celeron55 well, i have a general direction in my head, and i still remember my initial vague visions, which are so vague i won't try to explain them 08:29 saschaheylik if we had some kind of agreement as to where we are heading to focus on, we'd be a lot more productive 08:30 celeron55 that kind of directional progress is slow; i use most of my time in maintenance-like stuff 08:30 VanessaE not to mention that each person has a slightly different idea of how a game should move forward. 08:30 celeron55 saschaheylik: yes, to an unknown extent 08:30 saschaheylik and you are saying if a number of people put in random stuff they think "is fun" results in faster progress? 08:31 celeron55 ehm? 08:31 saschaheylik 'make it fun' 08:31 celeron55 that is exactly what i am strongly against 08:31 celeron55 dunno about darkrose though 08:32 celeron55 i like you because of you started to discus about this topic out of nowhere 8) 08:32 saschaheylik oh thank you 08:32 saschaheylik you are very sweet too 08:33 celeron55 the way people mostly handle this subject is "i want this thing in minetest, it is fun", and it only makes everybody angry 08:34 saschaheylik well yes, non-developers asking for every goddamn feature from their favourite games to be copied is one thing 08:34 celeron55 but yes, there does not exist any officially stated direction of development, and yes, it hurts development an unknown amount 08:35 saschaheylik so maybe we should talk about that then ;) 08:39 celeron55 maybe. i don't expect much from such an attempt though, unless maybe if *you* have a very good and practical idea 08:39 saschaheylik well i guess practical depends on how many of us agree with and work on the particular idea 08:40 saschaheylik but i basically want to continue minecraft's focus on creation 08:40 celeron55 not exactly; an another important limiting thing is what will work without rewriting our technology 08:42 saschaheylik continue it in a bit of a gmod fashion 08:42 saschaheylik you know gmod? 08:42 saschaheylik garrys mod 08:43 celeron55 i have never played it, but i do know a bit about it 08:46 saschaheylik basically its about combining different objects using welds, hinges, axes, etc., wiring and scriptable electronics 08:46 saschaheylik a big problem of gmod is that its just a mod of hl2 so this stuff is quite buggy 08:47 sfan5 can you get the inventory_image of a block somehow? 08:49 sfan5 or generate them? 08:49 saschaheylik in an usual gmod server, people would join and then either alone or together build houses (like in minecraft, but usually with more complex mechanics) , but also all kinds of vehicles. 08:50 saschaheylik so minecraft stops at simply building basic houses 08:51 saschaheylik while gmod basically demonstrates, the more tools to mess around with, the better. 08:53 celeron55 that is not saying very much 08:54 saschaheylik minecraft's only tools are "add block" and "remove block" 08:55 saschaheylik gmod has "add object", "remove object", "weld objects", "connect 2 objects using an axis", "connect 2 objects using a hinge", .... 08:56 saschaheylik also worth mentioning are some of the "active parts" which are motors, pulleys, pistons, hoverballs (make something float), wheels etc. all of these can be hooked up to electronics 08:57 celeron55 the characteristic thing in what you're suggesting is the ability to build moving things out of pieces 08:57 saschaheylik yes 08:58 celeron55 it has been suggested and discussed before too 08:58 celeron55 basically, it's quite hard to implement 09:01 celeron55 it would be fun, for sure, more or less 09:01 saschaheylik i feel like the move from static to dynamic or "dead to living creations" takes the gameplay to a whole other level. 09:02 saschaheylik somewhere along the evolution of creative gaming this change is inevitabe 09:05 celeron55 a question comes into my mind: why has not anyone done it? 09:06 saschaheylik well everything has been done before in some way 09:06 saschaheylik infiniminer before minecraft 09:06 saschaheylik something else before that 09:06 celeron55 i mean, a boxel game with the ability to build moving things 09:06 saschaheylik yet appereantly minecraft did it more "right way" 09:07 saschaheylik thing is players dont judge games by analyzing their feature lists 09:07 saschaheylik but by the "feeling" 09:07 Calinou minecraft has a shitton of features, if you didn't see it 09:07 Calinou go play the whole game and see? 09:07 celeron55 if it was easy, i would have already done it, like a year ago; but it requires serious effort 09:08 saschaheylik Calinou: lol 09:08 Calinou so you can't say its feature list is small 09:08 saschaheylik celeron55: im not here to not be serious 09:08 saschaheylik Calinou: the size of a feature list depends on the size and definition of a feature 09:08 celeron55 can you program, and are you not afraid of Minetest's codebase? 09:09 saschaheylik ive been "doing" C++ on and off for a couple of years now, also most popular other languages, some php stuff professionally 09:09 saschaheylik and ive been reading minetest's codebase for the past few days 09:10 saschaheylik also im intrigued by the possibilities 09:11 saschaheylik since i first played minecraft ive been disappointed that notch didnt take it further than that, cant see the potental or maybe just doesnt care 09:12 celeron55 okay, we might be up to something here 09:13 celeron55 i know that 4chan dislikes notch basically because he didn't take MC further in that way 09:17 celeron55 starting anything like this is quite much up to me, obviously 09:18 celeron55 like, out of everybody involved in MT 09:20 celeron55 i say let's try it; there is nothing to lose, except spare time 09:22 sfan5 can you scale images up and can you use that in a formspec? 09:22 celeron55 wat? 09:24 celeron55 saschaheylik: how do you expect to be involved, right now and after some time? 09:28 sfan5 celeron55: use [scale or similar in a formspec 09:30 celeron55 sfan5: what is the problem you are trying to solve? 09:31 sfan5 i want to use your minecraft-like inventory formspec for a mod, i want to scale the player.pngin the inventory up 09:34 celeron55 image[,;,;] 09:36 celeron55 like... i cannot imagine anything more obvious 09:36 sfan5 oh 09:36 celeron55 do you still have a problem? 09:36 sfan5 no 09:41 saschaheylik sry just got interrupted by someone 09:42 saschaheylik alright so 09:42 saschaheylik saschaheylik: how do you expect to be involved, right now and after some time? 09:42 saschaheylik how? as a programmer? 09:46 celeron55 umm... in every way. but i'll ask more specifically: would you like to take a first try of making a buildable entity? 09:48 saschaheylik sure. just gotta figure out how things are handled as of now. like where the pther players get drawn 09:48 saschaheylik been looking for that for quite a while now. 09:48 celeron55 i can imagine it being quite non-trivial to somebody new to the code, but if i'll start it from ground up, nobody is probably going to get into doing it except me 09:49 celeron55 you'll probably want to make a new SAO/CAO pair 09:49 celeron55 see the wiki in the topic 8) 09:50 celeron55 http://minetest.net/wiki/doku.php?id=code:inner_workings_of_minetest 09:50 celeron55 http://minetest.net/wiki/doku.php?id=code:objects_in_environment 09:51 celeron55 it's not going to be easy at all - many things exist already, but gluing them together and figuring out what new things *need* to be done is hard 09:54 saschaheylik sort of where in the code can i find that? 09:54 celeron55 as what the player will see, there should be a way to drop a node in such a way that it will make the first node of a "buildable entity", laying on the ground (in some rotated position so that it is obvious), and then the player should be able to build on it just like to stationary parts of the world 09:56 celeron55 there is serverobject.{h,cpp}, clientobject.{h,cpp} and then the implementations in content_sao.{h,cpp} and content_cao.{h,cpp}; read the last wiki page i linked to 09:56 saschaheylik so basically taking parts out of the voxel grid and back in 09:57 saschaheylik though i dont see why a player couldn't work on a non-stationary block 10:23 saschaheylik celeron55: in content_cao.cpp, where the hell does variable BS come from? 10:24 thexyz saschaheylik: constants.h 10:24 saschaheylik oh 10:24 saschaheylik thats confusing 10:24 celeron55 BS is a constant in constants.h, it's... well, the width of a node 10:24 celeron55 i tend to call if "bullshit" 10:24 celeron55 it* 10:25 VanessaE first thing I thought of when I saw that :-) 10:25 saschaheylik yes 10:25 * Calinou calls it bullshit too 10:25 celeron55 it's some of the very first design decisions; it exists because it was easier to debug the floating-point coordinate / integer node position conversions in the mesh generation code when i initially made it 10:26 saschaheylik a better solution would be a class Constants with a static Constant.bs() 10:26 celeron55 eh, 10:26 celeron55 -, 10:27 celeron55 why would that matter at all? 10:27 saschaheylik because you would know where the hell "BS" came from 10:27 darkrose do we really need constant bullshit? 10:27 VanessaE we get enough of that between the forums and #minetest *rimshot* 10:27 celeron55 there are so few of those it doesn't matter 10:28 saschaheylik still random variables coming out of nowhere. that really sucks imo. 10:29 celeron55 and to be clear: if i designed minetest now, BS would be 1; but it happened to get built in to the network protocol and file format too and i am lazy, so it's there 10:30 celeron55 it could be removed but on the other hand it actually serves the original purpose still quite well 10:30 celeron55 it makes it nearly impossible to accidentally screw up int-float conversions 8) 10:31 darkrose really shouldn't throw out challenges like that 10:32 celeron55 C++ would of course allow doing it in a non-arbitrary way too, but i don't like that kind of usage of C++ 10:38 saschaheylik i just read some of the sao/cao files. but how does this tie in with lua? 10:39 celeron55 all current lua entities are of the LuaEntitySAO type 10:41 celeron55 and much of the common interface of ServerActiveObject is exposed in Lua 10:43 celeron55 the design of some parts of minetest have quite a wrappery feel to them, because of how it all has formed from the original smaller-scale design 11:05 saschaheylik scriptapi.cpp is a monster o.O 14:21 BloodyFire Is there a current todo list? 21:01 hmmmm this is the engine development channel? ah 21:01 hmmmm much smaller 21:02 hmmmm okay, what's the point of the new cache with the hash filenames? the files there aren't decompressed by any means 21:13 hmmmm just a small note, clouds.cpp says it's being cleaned up and optimized, but all i really see aside from a v3f() call being replaced with a set call is that all of the position assignment operations were replaced with vector3df.Pos.set()... that's cleaner, sure, but definitely not an optimization. chances are it's not inlined or anything, and with such hot code, that's important. did anybody bother to profile it for regr 21:13 hmmmm essions? 21:14 VanessaE hmmmm: it may take a while for c55 to answer 21:15 hmmmm eh, he's seriously the only person who can answer? 21:15 VanessaE no, but he's the most likely one to have an answer that fits your particular question. 21:15 hmmmm i see 21:16 hmmmm about the Lua stuff... has a JITter for that been added yet? 21:17 VanessaE xyz tried that while back but turned out not to be useful 21:17 VanessaE +a 21:17 hmmmm i find that hard to believe 21:17 Bad_Command Not useful? 21:18 hmmmm the same thing was said about using a binary file format for speed, and sqlite was used instead because it was 'faster'. i really find that hard to believe 21:18 hmmmm all i really know is that the game performs (cpu-wise) horribly for me 21:18 hmmmm this is supposed to be a lightweight game, come on, you can't be serious. 21:20 hmmmm if something that's supposed to be slower in theory turns out to be faster, chances are you were doing the simpler faster thing wrong and it would be an even better idea to fix that up instead of dumping it and switching over to something else 21:21 VanessaE Bad_Command: it turned out to do little more than slow down the loading of the mods or something to that effect. Negligible effect on execution speed. 21:21 VanessaE hmmmm: can you code in C++ ? I'm sure c55 would love to see patches to fix the speed issues 21:21 hmmmm before you discount it as not being useful, you should check out what kind of setup you're running it on. 21:22 VanessaE (I don't know C well at all, let alone C++, so I can't) 21:22 hmmmm you're not seeing the impact as much because your hardware is so new and powerful but the majority of people don't 21:22 hmmmm i don't know... i've gotten the impression that c55 is more interested in new features than he is bugfixes and optimization. which is understandable 21:23 hmmmm i've heard from people he's hard to work with too 21:23 VanessaE not at all - he seems to want both 21:23 hmmmm it might be a better idea to fork it and fix up all the wrong stuff and then carry on from there 21:23 VanessaE but fixes must be clean, clear, and show a tangible improvement 21:23 VanessaE don't fork it, too many people do that and then their projects die off 21:23 hmmmm what ever happened to the fork done by those amatuers? 21:28 hmmmm you see, a lot of the speed issues aren't really speed *issues* per se, it's just that there are an uncountable number of slow parts that all add up to a complete product that's slow and can't be fixed 21:28 hmmmm if i had to optimize this, though, i'd first look into taking the mapgen entirely out of lua - bad idea there. from what i understood he wanted to move the rest of it into lua 21:30 hmmmm i'd probably do some statistics on what are the hottest parts in Lua and move them back into the engine as well 21:30 hmmmm that's all a big bunch of work and i know c55 would disagree with it 21:31 hmmmm (which is why i said that it'd probably be a better idea to fork it)