| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:57 |
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| 00:57 |
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| 02:35 |
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| 04:18 |
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| 04:45 |
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| 06:14 |
celeron55 |
madchicken is making "Moderator please delete" posts on the forum |
| 06:14 |
celeron55 |
our policy, especially on the server section, is to warn people who do this, and ultimately BAN people who do this |
| 06:14 |
VanessaE |
understood |
| 06:15 |
celeron55 |
they should reuse their old server posts, and if they absolutely don't need as many as they had before, they should just mark them with bold letters at the beginning as "not available anymore" |
| 06:15 |
celeron55 |
or something like that |
| 06:16 |
VanessaE |
dammit, already fell out of firefox'shistory |
| 06:16 |
celeron55 |
i disabled the deleting of posts because people use the functionality VERY stupidly |
| 06:16 |
celeron55 |
if they can do it, they can delete discussions that people have had |
| 06:16 |
celeron55 |
and now they can delete the topic of discussions that people have had |
| 06:16 |
celeron55 |
by editing it |
| 06:16 |
celeron55 |
it is ban worthy |
| 06:17 |
VanessaE |
it's for that reason (affecting whole conversations) that I never delete any of my posts if there's been a reply to it |
| 06:18 |
VanessaE |
or I try not to anyway |
| 06:19 |
VanessaE |
c55: see earlier msg |
| 06:19 |
celeron55 |
http://paste.dy.fi/mKR |
| 06:21 |
VanessaE |
that looks okay to me |
| 06:21 |
celeron55 |
already sent it; just linking it here because it is useful information for moderators |
| 06:22 |
VanessaE |
ok. I'll keep that in mind |
| 06:30 |
celeron55 |
"OK sorry i was not aware Thanks for the info" |
| 06:30 |
celeron55 |
some people just don't have common sense |
| 06:30 |
celeron55 |
apparently |
| 06:31 |
VanessaE |
huh. you shoulda been in #minetest earlier today, speaking of lack of common sense |
| 06:32 |
VanessaE |
Keegan (who has since backed off of this) had the nerve to start demanding (as in all caps and plenty of !!) that anyone who has one hand over to him a hacked minetest client |
| 06:32 |
VanessaE |
he was...stonewalled :-) |
| 06:34 |
celeron55 |
hacking a minetest client is so easy anyone with brains can do it |
| 06:34 |
celeron55 |
given some time |
| 06:34 |
VanessaE |
right |
| 07:28 |
|
saschaheylik joined #minetest-dev |
| 07:34 |
saschaheylik |
celeron55: http://www.greatgamemusic.com/free_game_music.php |
| 07:34 |
saschaheylik |
celeron55: i think this would make a great background track for the main menu |
| 07:35 |
saschaheylik |
celeron55: what do you think? |
| 07:36 |
saschaheylik |
im going to put it in my minetest version with an option to turn it off. then you can pull it if you want |
| 07:37 |
saschaheylik |
gonna have to wait for that guy to send me the track though |
| 07:38 |
saschaheylik |
well theres lots of other good music too |
| 07:38 |
saschaheylik |
http://content.gpwiki.org/index.php/Game_Content_Resources |
| 08:04 |
sfan5 |
saschaheylik: opengameart.org you can find music there too |
| 08:07 |
saschaheylik |
yes its in the list too |
| 08:09 |
celeron55 |
saschaheylik: horrible |
| 08:10 |
saschaheylik |
what would you prefer? |
| 08:11 |
saschaheylik |
i just found a bug... if you place a block underneath you, crouch, and the block is removed, you float. |
| 08:11 |
celeron55 |
that has been fixed in 0.4.2-rc1 |
| 08:11 |
saschaheylik |
(in spawn protection) |
| 08:11 |
saschaheylik |
oh |
| 08:12 |
saschaheylik |
why do i have an out of date version? |
| 08:12 |
saschaheylik |
pulled it from github |
| 08:12 |
saschaheylik |
oh guess it changes |
| 08:12 |
saschaheylik |
*d |
| 08:13 |
celeron55 |
uhm |
| 08:13 |
saschaheylik |
nvm |
| 08:13 |
celeron55 |
i don't see the commit anywhere, bit it has been fixed; i tried |
| 08:16 |
sfan5 |
feature request: ObjectRef (Player only) get_digging_time() |
| 08:16 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: if you're so inclined, can you add something to the api that tells if the player is digging (or at least, swinging their fist/tool/etc)? |
| 08:16 |
VanessaE |
haha |
| 08:16 |
VanessaE |
great minds, etc :-) |
| 08:21 |
celeron55 |
what are you going to do with that |
| 08:22 |
sfan5 |
digging particles in particles mod |
| 08:22 |
VanessaE |
so that a mod can execute some special effect when a no-- |
| 08:22 |
VanessaE |
yeah. |
| 08:22 |
sfan5 |
:D |
| 08:22 |
VanessaE |
<celeron55> horrible. not useful for survival. piss off. etc. ;-) |
| 08:24 |
VanessaE |
seriously though, between get_pointed_thing_position() and register_globalstep() and the above suggestion, one could see if a person is digging, and on what |
| 08:25 |
celeron55 |
that sounds quite doable; add it as an issue to github |
| 08:25 |
VanessaE |
and throw particles in a timed fashion (a few times a second at the max) |
| 08:25 |
VanessaE |
it has? |
| 08:25 |
sfan5 |
<celeron55> that sounds quite doable; add it as an issue to github |
| 08:25 |
sfan5 |
VanessaE: your job ;) |
| 08:25 |
VanessaE |
oops |
| 08:25 |
celeron55 |
it wasn't doable a while ago, but a bit shorter while ago some stuff was added on the server side that makes it doable |
| 08:25 |
VanessaE |
I read that as "and it has.." not "add it as" |
| 08:26 |
saschaheylik |
if you dont mind me asking, where are you trying to go with this? |
| 08:27 |
VanessaE |
issue submitted |
| 08:27 |
sfan5 |
saschaheylik: <sfan5> digging particles in particles mod |
| 08:27 |
saschaheylik |
no i mean minetest in general |
| 08:27 |
saschaheylik |
any plans? |
| 08:27 |
sfan5 |
umm.. |
| 08:28 |
saschaheylik |
actually i was mainly asking celeron55 |
| 08:28 |
darkrose |
'make it fun' |
| 08:28 |
saschaheylik |
thats not a good plan |
| 08:28 |
celeron55 |
well, i have a general direction in my head, and i still remember my initial vague visions, which are so vague i won't try to explain them |
| 08:29 |
saschaheylik |
if we had some kind of agreement as to where we are heading to focus on, we'd be a lot more productive |
| 08:30 |
celeron55 |
that kind of directional progress is slow; i use most of my time in maintenance-like stuff |
| 08:30 |
VanessaE |
not to mention that each person has a slightly different idea of how a game should move forward. |
| 08:30 |
celeron55 |
saschaheylik: yes, to an unknown extent |
| 08:30 |
saschaheylik |
and you are saying if a number of people put in random stuff they think "is fun" results in faster progress? |
| 08:31 |
celeron55 |
ehm? |
| 08:31 |
saschaheylik |
<darkrose> 'make it fun' |
| 08:31 |
celeron55 |
that is exactly what i am strongly against |
| 08:31 |
celeron55 |
dunno about darkrose though |
| 08:32 |
celeron55 |
i like you because of you started to discus about this topic out of nowhere 8) |
| 08:32 |
saschaheylik |
oh thank you |
| 08:32 |
saschaheylik |
you are very sweet too |
| 08:33 |
celeron55 |
the way people mostly handle this subject is "i want this thing in minetest, it is fun", and it only makes everybody angry |
| 08:34 |
saschaheylik |
well yes, non-developers asking for every goddamn feature from their favourite games to be copied is one thing |
| 08:34 |
celeron55 |
but yes, there does not exist any officially stated direction of development, and yes, it hurts development an unknown amount |
| 08:35 |
saschaheylik |
so maybe we should talk about that then ;) |
| 08:39 |
celeron55 |
maybe. i don't expect much from such an attempt though, unless maybe if *you* have a very good and practical idea |
| 08:39 |
saschaheylik |
well i guess practical depends on how many of us agree with and work on the particular idea |
| 08:40 |
saschaheylik |
but i basically want to continue minecraft's focus on creation |
| 08:40 |
celeron55 |
not exactly; an another important limiting thing is what will work without rewriting our technology |
| 08:40 |
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Calinou joined #minetest-dev |
| 08:42 |
saschaheylik |
continue it in a bit of a gmod fashion |
| 08:42 |
saschaheylik |
you know gmod? |
| 08:42 |
saschaheylik |
garrys mod |
| 08:43 |
celeron55 |
i have never played it, but i do know a bit about it |
| 08:46 |
saschaheylik |
basically its about combining different objects using welds, hinges, axes, etc., wiring and scriptable electronics |
| 08:46 |
saschaheylik |
a big problem of gmod is that its just a mod of hl2 so this stuff is quite buggy |
| 08:47 |
sfan5 |
can you get the inventory_image of a block somehow? |
| 08:49 |
sfan5 |
or generate them? |
| 08:49 |
saschaheylik |
in an usual gmod server, people would join and then either alone or together build houses (like in minecraft, but usually with more complex mechanics) , but also all kinds of vehicles. |
| 08:50 |
saschaheylik |
so minecraft stops at simply building basic houses |
| 08:51 |
saschaheylik |
while gmod basically demonstrates, the more tools to mess around with, the better. |
| 08:53 |
celeron55 |
that is not saying very much |
| 08:54 |
saschaheylik |
minecraft's only tools are "add block" and "remove block" |
| 08:55 |
saschaheylik |
gmod has "add object", "remove object", "weld objects", "connect 2 objects using an axis", "connect 2 objects using a hinge", .... |
| 08:56 |
saschaheylik |
also worth mentioning are some of the "active parts" which are motors, pulleys, pistons, hoverballs (make something float), wheels etc. all of these can be hooked up to electronics |
| 08:57 |
celeron55 |
the characteristic thing in what you're suggesting is the ability to build moving things out of pieces |
| 08:57 |
saschaheylik |
yes |
| 08:58 |
celeron55 |
it has been suggested and discussed before too |
| 08:58 |
celeron55 |
basically, it's quite hard to implement |
| 09:01 |
celeron55 |
it would be fun, for sure, more or less |
| 09:01 |
saschaheylik |
i feel like the move from static to dynamic or "dead to living creations" takes the gameplay to a whole other level. |
| 09:02 |
saschaheylik |
somewhere along the evolution of creative gaming this change is inevitabe |
| 09:05 |
celeron55 |
a question comes into my mind: why has not anyone done it? |
| 09:06 |
saschaheylik |
well everything has been done before in some way |
| 09:06 |
saschaheylik |
infiniminer before minecraft |
| 09:06 |
saschaheylik |
something else before that |
| 09:06 |
celeron55 |
i mean, a boxel game with the ability to build moving things |
| 09:06 |
saschaheylik |
yet appereantly minecraft did it more "right way" |
| 09:07 |
saschaheylik |
thing is players dont judge games by analyzing their feature lists |
| 09:07 |
saschaheylik |
but by the "feeling" |
| 09:07 |
Calinou |
minecraft has a shitton of features, if you didn't see it |
| 09:07 |
Calinou |
go play the whole game and see? |
| 09:07 |
celeron55 |
if it was easy, i would have already done it, like a year ago; but it requires serious effort |
| 09:08 |
saschaheylik |
Calinou: lol |
| 09:08 |
Calinou |
so you can't say its feature list is small |
| 09:08 |
saschaheylik |
celeron55: im not here to not be serious |
| 09:08 |
saschaheylik |
Calinou: the size of a feature list depends on the size and definition of a feature |
| 09:08 |
celeron55 |
can you program, and are you not afraid of Minetest's codebase? |
| 09:09 |
saschaheylik |
ive been "doing" C++ on and off for a couple of years now, also most popular other languages, some php stuff professionally |
| 09:09 |
saschaheylik |
and ive been reading minetest's codebase for the past few days |
| 09:10 |
saschaheylik |
also im intrigued by the possibilities |
| 09:11 |
saschaheylik |
since i first played minecraft ive been disappointed that notch didnt take it further than that, cant see the potental or maybe just doesnt care |
| 09:12 |
celeron55 |
okay, we might be up to something here |
| 09:13 |
celeron55 |
i know that 4chan dislikes notch basically because he didn't take MC further in that way |
| 09:17 |
celeron55 |
starting anything like this is quite much up to me, obviously |
| 09:18 |
celeron55 |
like, out of everybody involved in MT |
| 09:20 |
celeron55 |
i say let's try it; there is nothing to lose, except spare time |
| 09:22 |
sfan5 |
can you scale images up and can you use that in a formspec? |
| 09:22 |
celeron55 |
wat? |
| 09:24 |
celeron55 |
saschaheylik: how do you expect to be involved, right now and after some time? |
| 09:28 |
sfan5 |
celeron55: use [scale or similar in a formspec |
| 09:30 |
celeron55 |
sfan5: what is the problem you are trying to solve? |
| 09:31 |
sfan5 |
i want to use your minecraft-like inventory formspec for a mod, i want to scale the player.pngin the inventory up |
| 09:34 |
celeron55 |
image[<X>,<Y>;<W>,<H>;<texture name>] |
| 09:36 |
celeron55 |
like... i cannot imagine anything more obvious |
| 09:36 |
sfan5 |
oh |
| 09:36 |
celeron55 |
do you still have a problem? |
| 09:36 |
sfan5 |
no |
| 09:41 |
saschaheylik |
sry just got interrupted by someone |
| 09:42 |
saschaheylik |
alright so |
| 09:42 |
saschaheylik |
<celeron55> saschaheylik: how do you expect to be involved, right now and after some time? |
| 09:42 |
saschaheylik |
how? as a programmer? |
| 09:46 |
celeron55 |
umm... in every way. but i'll ask more specifically: would you like to take a first try of making a buildable entity? |
| 09:48 |
saschaheylik |
sure. just gotta figure out how things are handled as of now. like where the pther players get drawn |
| 09:48 |
saschaheylik |
been looking for that for quite a while now. |
| 09:48 |
celeron55 |
i can imagine it being quite non-trivial to somebody new to the code, but if i'll start it from ground up, nobody is probably going to get into doing it except me |
| 09:49 |
celeron55 |
you'll probably want to make a new SAO/CAO pair |
| 09:49 |
celeron55 |
see the wiki in the topic 8) |
| 09:50 |
celeron55 |
http://minetest.net/wiki/doku.php?id=code:inner_workings_of_minetest |
| 09:50 |
celeron55 |
http://minetest.net/wiki/doku.php?id=code:objects_in_environment |
| 09:51 |
celeron55 |
it's not going to be easy at all - many things exist already, but gluing them together and figuring out what new things *need* to be done is hard |
| 09:54 |
saschaheylik |
sort of where in the code can i find that? |
| 09:54 |
celeron55 |
as what the player will see, there should be a way to drop a node in such a way that it will make the first node of a "buildable entity", laying on the ground (in some rotated position so that it is obvious), and then the player should be able to build on it just like to stationary parts of the world |
| 09:56 |
celeron55 |
there is serverobject.{h,cpp}, clientobject.{h,cpp} and then the implementations in content_sao.{h,cpp} and content_cao.{h,cpp}; read the last wiki page i linked to |
| 09:56 |
saschaheylik |
so basically taking parts out of the voxel grid and back in |
| 09:57 |
saschaheylik |
though i dont see why a player couldn't work on a non-stationary block |
| 10:17 |
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| 10:23 |
saschaheylik |
celeron55: in content_cao.cpp, where the hell does variable BS come from? |
| 10:24 |
thexyz |
saschaheylik: constants.h |
| 10:24 |
saschaheylik |
oh |
| 10:24 |
saschaheylik |
thats confusing |
| 10:24 |
celeron55 |
BS is a constant in constants.h, it's... well, the width of a node |
| 10:24 |
celeron55 |
i tend to call if "bullshit" |
| 10:24 |
celeron55 |
it* |
| 10:25 |
VanessaE |
first thing I thought of when I saw that :-) |
| 10:25 |
saschaheylik |
yes |
| 10:25 |
* Calinou |
calls it bullshit too |
| 10:25 |
celeron55 |
it's some of the very first design decisions; it exists because it was easier to debug the floating-point coordinate / integer node position conversions in the mesh generation code when i initially made it |
| 10:26 |
saschaheylik |
a better solution would be a class Constants with a static Constant.bs() |
| 10:26 |
celeron55 |
eh, |
| 10:26 |
celeron55 |
-, |
| 10:27 |
celeron55 |
why would that matter at all? |
| 10:27 |
saschaheylik |
because you would know where the hell "BS" came from |
| 10:27 |
darkrose |
do we really need constant bullshit? |
| 10:27 |
VanessaE |
we get enough of that between the forums and #minetest *rimshot* |
| 10:27 |
celeron55 |
there are so few of those it doesn't matter |
| 10:28 |
saschaheylik |
still random variables coming out of nowhere. that really sucks imo. |
| 10:29 |
celeron55 |
and to be clear: if i designed minetest now, BS would be 1; but it happened to get built in to the network protocol and file format too and i am lazy, so it's there |
| 10:30 |
celeron55 |
it could be removed but on the other hand it actually serves the original purpose still quite well |
| 10:30 |
celeron55 |
it makes it nearly impossible to accidentally screw up int-float conversions 8) |
| 10:31 |
darkrose |
really shouldn't throw out challenges like that |
| 10:32 |
celeron55 |
C++ would of course allow doing it in a non-arbitrary way too, but i don't like that kind of usage of C++ |
| 10:38 |
saschaheylik |
i just read some of the sao/cao files. but how does this tie in with lua? |
| 10:39 |
celeron55 |
all current lua entities are of the LuaEntitySAO type |
| 10:41 |
celeron55 |
and much of the common interface of ServerActiveObject is exposed in Lua |
| 10:43 |
celeron55 |
the design of some parts of minetest have quite a wrappery feel to them, because of how it all has formed from the original smaller-scale design |
| 11:05 |
saschaheylik |
scriptapi.cpp is a monster o.O |
| 13:27 |
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| 14:21 |
BloodyFire |
Is there a current todo list? |
| 18:30 |
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| 21:01 |
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| 21:01 |
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| 21:01 |
hmmmm |
this is the engine development channel? ah |
| 21:01 |
hmmmm |
much smaller |
| 21:02 |
hmmmm |
okay, what's the point of the new cache with the hash filenames? the files there aren't decompressed by any means |
| 21:13 |
hmmmm |
just a small note, clouds.cpp says it's being cleaned up and optimized, but all i really see aside from a v3f() call being replaced with a set call is that all of the position assignment operations were replaced with vector3df.Pos.set()... that's cleaner, sure, but definitely not an optimization. chances are it's not inlined or anything, and with such hot code, that's important. did anybody bother to profile it for regr |
| 21:13 |
hmmmm |
essions? |
| 21:14 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: it may take a while for c55 to answer |
| 21:15 |
hmmmm |
eh, he's seriously the only person who can answer? |
| 21:15 |
VanessaE |
no, but he's the most likely one to have an answer that fits your particular question. |
| 21:15 |
hmmmm |
i see |
| 21:16 |
hmmmm |
about the Lua stuff... has a JITter for that been added yet? |
| 21:17 |
VanessaE |
xyz tried that while back but turned out not to be useful |
| 21:17 |
VanessaE |
+a |
| 21:17 |
hmmmm |
i find that hard to believe |
| 21:17 |
Bad_Command |
Not useful? |
| 21:18 |
hmmmm |
the same thing was said about using a binary file format for speed, and sqlite was used instead because it was 'faster'. i really find that hard to believe |
| 21:18 |
hmmmm |
all i really know is that the game performs (cpu-wise) horribly for me |
| 21:18 |
hmmmm |
this is supposed to be a lightweight game, come on, you can't be serious. |
| 21:20 |
hmmmm |
if something that's supposed to be slower in theory turns out to be faster, chances are you were doing the simpler faster thing wrong and it would be an even better idea to fix that up instead of dumping it and switching over to something else |
| 21:21 |
VanessaE |
Bad_Command: it turned out to do little more than slow down the loading of the mods or something to that effect. Negligible effect on execution speed. |
| 21:21 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: can you code in C++ ? I'm sure c55 would love to see patches to fix the speed issues |
| 21:21 |
hmmmm |
before you discount it as not being useful, you should check out what kind of setup you're running it on. |
| 21:22 |
VanessaE |
(I don't know C well at all, let alone C++, so I can't) |
| 21:22 |
hmmmm |
you're not seeing the impact as much because your hardware is so new and powerful but the majority of people don't |
| 21:22 |
hmmmm |
i don't know... i've gotten the impression that c55 is more interested in new features than he is bugfixes and optimization. which is understandable |
| 21:23 |
hmmmm |
i've heard from people he's hard to work with too |
| 21:23 |
VanessaE |
not at all - he seems to want both |
| 21:23 |
hmmmm |
it might be a better idea to fork it and fix up all the wrong stuff and then carry on from there |
| 21:23 |
VanessaE |
but fixes must be clean, clear, and show a tangible improvement |
| 21:23 |
VanessaE |
don't fork it, too many people do that and then their projects die off |
| 21:23 |
hmmmm |
what ever happened to the fork done by those amatuers? |
| 21:28 |
hmmmm |
you see, a lot of the speed issues aren't really speed *issues* per se, it's just that there are an uncountable number of slow parts that all add up to a complete product that's slow and can't be fixed |
| 21:28 |
hmmmm |
if i had to optimize this, though, i'd first look into taking the mapgen entirely out of lua - bad idea there. from what i understood he wanted to move the rest of it into lua |
| 21:30 |
hmmmm |
i'd probably do some statistics on what are the hottest parts in Lua and move them back into the engine as well |
| 21:30 |
hmmmm |
that's all a big bunch of work and i know c55 would disagree with it |
| 21:31 |
hmmmm |
(which is why i said that it'd probably be a better idea to fork it) |
| 22:14 |
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