| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 01:19 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: still awake? |
| 04:09 |
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| 09:06 |
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| 09:55 |
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| 10:24 |
celeron55 |
https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/commit/a9d8df83d228635594b75a563a0a8d906b3b883a |
| 10:25 |
celeron55 |
you can rollback somebody setting a forest on fire using lava. |
| 10:25 |
celeron55 |
by a single command |
| 10:26 |
celeron55 |
without touching what others have done at the same time or after it |
| 10:26 |
thexyz |
aww |
| 10:26 |
thexyz |
is there any examples? |
| 10:26 |
celeron55 |
the rollback log gets a shitload of megabytes at the event of somebody doing something like that though |
| 10:26 |
celeron55 |
(it'd compress pretty well though, but i don't care as for now) |
| 10:27 |
celeron55 |
examples? |
| 10:28 |
celeron55 |
make an example yourself |
| 10:28 |
celeron55 |
it should also succesfully rollback contents of chests and signs burnt in the fire (ehm... if they burn?) |
| 10:28 |
celeron55 |
no idea |
| 10:33 |
darkrose |
chests don't, signs do |
| 10:34 |
celeron55 |
the only problem really is that fire is very CPU hungry |
| 10:34 |
celeron55 |
rollback does nothing to server lag 8) |
| 10:34 |
celeron55 |
(except after it is done) |
| 10:35 |
celeron55 |
i think i have an ABM CPU limiter patch somewhere on my server's git stash pile |
| 10:35 |
celeron55 |
i'll see if i could put that upstream |
| 10:41 |
celeron55 |
hmm, server doesn't build |
| 10:42 |
celeron55 |
due to some fiddling around with headers 8) |
| 10:42 |
celeron55 |
(got rid of some more header bloat) |
| 10:44 |
celeron55 |
now it works |
| 12:09 |
celeron55 |
this is quite buggy still though |
| 12:09 |
celeron55 |
or not buggy, but glitchy due to the way it works and because it still needs tunin |
| 12:09 |
celeron55 |
+g |
| 12:10 |
celeron55 |
it sometimes can't quite handle fire because it spreads so slow |
| 12:11 |
celeron55 |
and i just saw it guessing the map generator's ore generation as done by a player... 8D |
| 12:12 |
darkrose |
it thinks players are planting ores? |
| 12:13 |
celeron55 |
it probably found out a player did something near where the lua part of the map generator generated ores |
| 12:13 |
celeron55 |
there is no way it can know who really has caused eg. the spread of lava or fire, so it just guesses |
| 12:35 |
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| 12:40 |
celeron55 |
i am still trying to tweak this to behave somehow sanely |
| 12:50 |
celeron55 |
go grief c55.me:30000 |
| 12:51 |
jordach |
:D |
| 12:53 |
celeron55 |
and build |
| 12:54 |
jordach |
30001? |
| 12:54 |
jordach |
my bad |
| 13:00 |
* darkrose |
may gave started a small fire |
| 13:01 |
darkrose |
s/gave/have/ |
| 13:37 |
celeron55 |
so let's see (i was away) |
| 13:42 |
celeron55 |
lava is easily removed but fire doesn't go away |
| 13:42 |
celeron55 |
much of fire tends to get removed but it isn't perfect |
| 13:52 |
celeron55 |
i don't know why though |
| 13:52 |
celeron55 |
then the fire catches up in no time |
| 14:00 |
celeron55 |
as long as fire is disabled, /rollback will get rid of griefings |
| 14:00 |
celeron55 |
and sometimes perfectly with fire too; it's just that if it leaves 2 fire nodes, they'll quickly spread to the full area again |
| 14:02 |
celeron55 |
it would be fun to have a completely discrete system with perfect history, but this is far from it, and can't really be made into that |
| 14:02 |
celeron55 |
also it would surely have large speed tradeoffs |
| 14:05 |
jordach |
this actually works well, compared to jeija's rollback mod |
| 15:43 |
VanessaE |
morning folks. |
| 15:50 |
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| 16:05 |
celeron55 |
maybe there should be a "massdestruct" privilege for setting fire and placing lava |
| 16:06 |
celeron55 |
basically for everything that can spread wildly and cause much harm |
| 16:06 |
celeron55 |
(there are no others than those currently) |
| 16:07 |
jordach |
water too in some aspects, if they have certain mods installed. |
| 16:07 |
celeron55 |
no |
| 16:07 |
celeron55 |
it can be rolled back easily |
| 16:08 |
VanessaE |
I like the idea. |
| 16:08 |
celeron55 |
lava can be rolled back too, but fire is too uncontrollable |
| 16:08 |
celeron55 |
and lava causes fire |
| 16:09 |
celeron55 |
there is a problem though |
| 16:09 |
celeron55 |
a griefer can place a long chain of things to move fire from legally placed lava to somewhere |
| 16:10 |
celeron55 |
i definitely know why notch nerfed fire 8) |
| 16:10 |
VanessaE |
is it possible to limit the speed and distance fire can spread based on the node type it is trying to spread to? |
| 16:11 |
celeron55 |
ehm |
| 16:11 |
celeron55 |
that would have absolutely no point |
| 16:11 |
celeron55 |
generally making fire to spread only a certain distance kind of would be possible, but that is what notch did i think |
| 16:12 |
celeron55 |
a set fire has only a certain "punch" and the punch lessens at each node spread and a fire node doesn't spread when it hasn't got any anymore |
| 16:13 |
celeron55 |
or something like that |
| 16:13 |
VanessaE |
that's what I was thinking |
| 16:13 |
celeron55 |
it makes fire boring |
| 16:13 |
celeron55 |
and pointless |
| 16:13 |
celeron55 |
it's the same thing as not having fire |
| 16:14 |
celeron55 |
like, what do you expect open fire to do except burn until there is nothing to burn? |
| 16:15 |
VanessaE |
well in the real world, some stuff takes more effort to set aflame than other stuff |
| 16:15 |
celeron55 |
i don't understand |
| 16:15 |
celeron55 |
why do you say that? |
| 16:15 |
VanessaE |
a tree trunk won't burn with the same amount of effort as, oh, grass or leaves |
| 16:15 |
celeron55 |
WHY ARE YOU SAYING THAT? |
| 16:15 |
celeron55 |
it does not help the *problem* in any way |
| 16:16 |
celeron55 |
and nothing else either |
| 16:16 |
VanessaE |
nevermind then. everything I say is random, etc. |
| 16:17 |
celeron55 |
i am trying to solve a problem here |
| 16:18 |
VanessaE |
look, no matter what I suggest, no matter HOW detailed I get (not in this case obviously), there is always SOMETHING you don't like about my suggestions. So why bother? |
| 16:18 |
celeron55 |
that line was completely rubbish |
| 16:24 |
VanessaE |
ok fine, how about this then: fire is set on some wooden planks. The algorithm wants to spread to a neighboring node, let's say a tree trunk. That fire should have to burn for a *long* time before that tree catches fire. If the source material, the wooden planks, has a burn time of less than what it takes to set the tree trunk on fire, the fire goes out and the most that happens to the tree is maybe turning it into some |
| 16:24 |
VanessaE |
kind of charred node. |
| 16:25 |
VanessaE |
on the other hand, if the algorithm wants to catch some leaves on fire next to that wooden planks source, those should catch fire pretty quickly, in which case the fire spreads to the leaves. The cycle repeats for each node the fire tries to spread to. |
| 16:25 |
VanessaE |
if source_burntime < destination_alight_time then source burns out and destination doesn't catch at all. |
| 16:26 |
VanessaE |
you could even get fancy and add the burntimes of all the nodes that are on fire which surround a given destination, to make it easier for it to catch fire, so a forest fire could still get started |
| 16:26 |
VanessaE |
but it would only continue if the trees are dense enough and would be less likely to get started in the first place. |
| 16:27 |
VanessaE |
provided you also let lava "cool down" as it spreads from the lava_source, such that it can't start a fire if it's far enough away from that source. |
| 16:27 |
VanessaE |
There. There's your solution, or at least it's better than what we have now. |
| 16:28 |
celeron55 |
ehm |
| 16:28 |
celeron55 |
that does not improve the situation in any way |
| 16:28 |
celeron55 |
a griefer has potentially infinite time to spread a fire from lava |
| 16:28 |
celeron55 |
spread times can be _anything_ |
| 16:29 |
celeron55 |
and i do not fancy your making-fire-fancier things, they'll probably only make it slower and it is already slow enough, and it just plain isn't needed |
| 16:30 |
VanessaE |
fancy -> creative, adventurous, ambitious |
| 16:30 |
celeron55 |
slow = resource hungry |
| 16:30 |
VanessaE |
(not "pretty" or "ornamental") |
| 16:35 |
VanessaE |
well at any rate, that grossly-expanded text above is equivalent "why are you saying this" line preceding it. |
| 16:35 |
VanessaE |
+to the |
| 16:37 |
celeron55 |
maybe i need to check with the rollback manager who has placed the block about to catch fire and spread as a serioisly nerfed variety if the player does not have the "massdestruct" privilege |
| 16:38 |
celeron55 |
u* |
| 16:38 |
celeron55 |
ehm... |
| 16:38 |
celeron55 |
that is going to be resource hungry |
| 16:40 |
celeron55 |
i think i'm going with just making it easy to disable fire on servers |
| 16:40 |
celeron55 |
KISS is my principle |
| 16:43 |
celeron55 |
if somebody wants to make a fancier fire as an independent mod, i can discuss how to do it interoperably; other than that, i think this case is closed |
| 16:46 |
VanessaE |
on a different note, here's something else for you to reject: |
| 16:46 |
VanessaE |
http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=34059 |
| 16:53 |
celeron55 |
three items for virtually the same thing, with absolutely no usage of groups? |
| 16:54 |
celeron55 |
if people start making mods based on that, with making three recipes for everything for each of the containers, i'll go kill myself |
| 16:54 |
VanessaE |
I couldn't figure out a decent way to handle the groups in that one. |
| 16:54 |
VanessaE |
and the idea isn't to use all three, it's to pick just one that's appropriate for your mod. |
| 16:55 |
VanessaE |
unifieddyes uses the glass bottle (this is in response to you not wanting to reference an out-of-tree mod) |
| 16:56 |
VanessaE |
the uranium and...oh what was it, cyro?.. mods could for example use the steel bottle |
| 16:57 |
celeron55 |
as long as you don't extend it any bit of what it currently is, i can think of it working out reasonably |
| 16:57 |
VanessaE |
and there are a couple of mods that need a drinking glass (one supplies some juices, presumably as a form of sustenance) |
| 16:57 |
VanessaE |
this is as far as I will take this mod |
| 16:57 |
VanessaE |
groups aside that is |
| 16:58 |
celeron55 |
also the graphics should be final from the start, and they should be simple enough for all people to draw their things to inside of them |
| 16:58 |
celeron55 |
the steel bottle is problematic from that viewpoint... hmm... i guess it'll get a simple label to it's side when it is filled |
| 16:58 |
VanessaE |
I'm not happy with the textures, but they're about the best I can come up with at that resolution. |
| 16:59 |
celeron55 |
i think they are good enough, and by modifying them from that it might just get worse |
| 16:59 |
VanessaE |
right. |
| 16:59 |
VanessaE |
my photorealistic ones are far better, but they're 64px and not suitable for an upstream mod. |
| 17:02 |
celeron55 |
i should make a "seal of interoperability approval by celeron55" to stamp on suitable mods |
| 17:02 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 17:02 |
VanessaE |
Good Houskeeping, you are not ;-) |
| 17:02 |
VanessaE |
but I suppose that's not a bad idea either way |
| 17:05 |
VanessaE |
there's one problem I can see with that idea: to use that "seal" you'll either have to send out a lot of emails to the parties whose mods you wish to stamp, or you'll have to trawl the forums and apply them yourself. |
| 17:06 |
VanessaE |
which would take a lot of time, something I know you're not too keen to expend. |
| 17:07 |
celeron55 |
i browse through mod releases from time to time |
| 17:07 |
celeron55 |
and, well, other parts of the forum too |
| 17:09 |
VanessaE |
yeah I know, I've seen you post recently. |
| 17:09 |
VanessaE |
just thinking of the added time, because now you'll have to review every recent mod on there (that you haven't evaluated already) |
| 17:10 |
celeron55 |
well that was a 50% serious suggestion |
| 17:10 |
VanessaE |
well ok |
| 17:10 |
celeron55 |
i was thinking on stamping stuff that otherwise might get competition only to make things worse |
| 17:10 |
celeron55 |
of* |
| 17:10 |
VanessaE |
now that's a good idea |
| 17:11 |
VanessaE |
(unifieddyes gets the stamp of course ;-) ) |
| 17:12 |
VanessaE |
(that was supposed to be a joke. It's funny. Laugh.) |
| 17:44 |
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